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knightflyte
08-29-2006, 05:18 PM
Some very nice flying. The horizontal roll looked awesome. Check it out.

On top of good flying it's pretty good camera work.

Nice!

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/192851/air_show_wonder/

tigertalon
08-29-2006, 05:23 PM
Anatoliy Kvochur?

Bearcat99
08-30-2006, 06:57 AM
Wow!!

FoolTrottel
08-30-2006, 07:10 AM
In this case: "It's the man, ánd the machine"

Indeed: Wow!!

ploughman
08-30-2006, 07:15 AM
Mig 29 OVT mitt vector thrust? Thing moves about the sky like it owns it.

Well maybe not the 29, but I bet it's got vector thrust.

Neat.

Brain32
08-30-2006, 07:39 AM
Su-33 if I'm not mistaken.

JG10r_Bull
08-30-2006, 07:49 AM
COOL. that's what i would say is knowing your plane and it's stall speed !! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

StellarRat
08-30-2006, 12:08 PM
When you have more thrust than the plane weighs there is no stall speed.

ploughman
08-30-2006, 12:11 PM
And it can go backwards. How neat is that?

Platypus_1.JaVA
08-30-2006, 12:29 PM
I've seen it in real-life and it is freakin cool!!!!!

ytareh
08-30-2006, 01:43 PM
As a 70s kid reared on Phantoms/Tomcats/Mig21/23 etc that looks like science fiction.....WoW !!!

zugfuhrer
08-30-2006, 02:08 PM
Can any US/Euro fighter do any like this?

Low_Flyer_MkVb
08-30-2006, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by zugfuhrer:
Can any US/Euro fighter do any like this?

Only the Spitfire....

Just joking. The Harrier can hover and fly backwards if the wind's right, but to my knowledge no US/Euro can come close to the Su. aerobatics-wise. Would love to be proved wrong (from a general interest point of view, not out of some chest-beating tub-thumpery).

Divine-Wind
08-30-2006, 02:19 PM
Well, if the US bought one, then yes. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

HuninMunin
08-30-2006, 02:22 PM
Yes and no.
The newest western designs are not as "grown out" as the Flanker familie is.
The Raptor and JSF both have thrust vectoring, wich enables the kind of flying you see in this vid.
The Typhoon does not, but is vastly more manouevrable by its overall conception, especialy in high speed.
Where a Sukoi can turn on a dime at this low speeds (note that this one here is in no way a serial aircraft),
the Raptor and more so the Typhoon fly circles around a normal SU-30MK, Su-27,33 or even 37.

berg417448
08-30-2006, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by StellarRat:
When you have more thrust than the plane weighs there is no stall speed.

Here is a neat video of an F-22 taking off and going straight up:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5991785941573959437&q=f-22&hl=en

CAF96th_Sillyak
08-30-2006, 02:27 PM
Certainly the Sukhoi's are more pleasent to watch at an airshow. That is when they are not crashing.

flockzap
08-30-2006, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by CAF96th_Sillyak:
Certainly the Sukhoi's are more pleasent to watch at an airshow. That is when they are not crashing.

You are right... here is one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIhYm_Pbbmg

MagnumHK
08-30-2006, 03:00 PM
How much of that is computer controlled and how much does the pilot really control?

flockzap
08-30-2006, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
...speed.
Where a Sukoi can turn on a dime at this low speeds (note that this one here is in no way a serial aircraft),
the Raptor and more so the Typhoon fly circles around a normal SU-30MK, Su-27,33 or even 37.

I´m sorry Sir but this is a prototype of the series production aircraft Su-37 Terminator.

Although Russia itself does not own any of these they are fully tested and ready for ordering I´m not sure if it´s available for exportation. There are several South American country´s interested in this specific aircraft but they opted insted for the cheaper Su-30MK2.
Venezuela bought from Russia 24 of these fighters in part due to heavy resistence from the United States in supplying state of the art technology, and delaying the supply of spare parts for the F-16´s in Venezuelan Air Force. What the US officials wanted was (I´m quoting here) that the Russians withdraw immediately the proposal saying that was too much power for that part of the region. The Russians declined the American proposal and completed the sale.

The problem is that since the american industry is ******ing the sale of technology for their "friends" these same friends are getting technology elsewhere. These governments are not led anymore by the same pressures that once moved minds around in a matter of hours.

I think this is healthy for the market and a really "wake up and smell the coffee" type of thing for all the manufacturers. Although they still exist, the huge pressure groups that where around a few years ago are slowly fadding away.

Bough by Venezuela
http://www.knaapo.ru/eng/products/military/Su30MK2.wbp

The Su-37.

http://www.geocities.com/goose_topgun2000/su37.html


"...Introducing the new machine, Mikhail Simonov emphasized that, unlike the American X-31, this was no experimental specimen, but rather a prototype of the series production aircraft. It has a standard configuration of the Su-35 multirole fighter, can carry up to 14 air-to-air missiles and up to 8,000 kg of ordnance..."

Jaws2002
08-30-2006, 03:40 PM
Yes and no.
The newest western designs are not as "grown out" as the Flanker familie is.
The Raptor and JSF both have thrust vectoring, wich enables the kind of flying you see in this vid.
The Typhoon does not, but is vastly more manouevrable by its overall conception, especialy in high speed.
Where a Sukoi can turn on a dime at this low speeds (note that this one here is in no way a serial aircraft),
the Raptor and more so the Typhoon fly circles around a normal SU-30MK, Su-27,33 or even 37.

I doubt F-22 can match this kind of maneuvers.
The main difference is the geometry. The fully movable canard and tail, combined with thrust vectoring nozzles, gives the Sukhoi the advantage in this kind of stall riding.

HuninMunin
08-30-2006, 04:00 PM
Your undoubtly right, but I was refering to real combat.
The problem the Flanker familie has is its durability.
India allready has material problems with theirs.
But they are of course unbeatable in price.

p1ngu666
08-30-2006, 04:09 PM
wonder how well western stuff would cope in india, its pretty hot and humid there.

hopefully none of the jets ever need be used in combat. just for airshows http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

KaleunFreddie
08-30-2006, 04:18 PM
Went to Farnborough 2006, and you think think that was good - just watch this guy in a Mig....

Film/sound quality is cr-ap - digital camera with movie facility, but still good enough..
Mig29 (50MB =00:04:07) (http://www.vanjast.com/Farnborough/MigDFlip.avi)

berg417448
08-30-2006, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by flockzap:



Although Russia itself does not own any of these they are fully tested and ready for ordering I´m not sure if it´s available for exportation. There are several South American country´s interested in this specific aircraft but they opted insted for the cheaper Su-30MK2.
Venezuela bought from Russia 24 of these fighters in part due to heavy resistence from the United States in supplying state of the art technology, and delaying the supply of spare parts for the F-16´s in Venezuelan Air Force. What the US officials wanted was (I´m quoting here) that the Russians withdraw immediately the proposal saying that was too much power for that part of the region. The Russians declined the American proposal and completed the sale.

The problem is that since the american industry is ******ing the sale of technology for their "friends" these same friends are getting technology elsewhere. These governments are not led anymore by the same pressures that once moved minds around in a matter of hours.

I think this is healthy for the market and a really "wake up and smell the coffee" type of thing for all the manufacturers. Although they still exist, the huge pressure groups that where around a few years ago are slowly fadding away.

Bough by Venezuela
http://www.knaapo.ru/eng/products/military/Su30MK2.wbp



I don't think that the current government of Venezuela qualifies as a "friend" to the US government right now:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/30/chavez.syria.ap/index.html

I'm not surprised that they didn't get the F-16 parts they want and I'm also not surprised that they bought elsewhere. The price was probably good too.

p1ngu666
08-30-2006, 05:34 PM
i think the american gov or some agency tried to have him killed a few years back. hes not been too keen on america since then, curiously enough.

hes like the new castro or che, which is cool http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

SkyChimp
08-30-2006, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by flockzap:
What the US officials wanted was (I´m quoting here) that the Russians withdraw immediately the proposal saying that was too much power for that part of the region. The Russians declined the American proposal and completed the sale.

The problem is that since the american industry is ******ing the sale of technology for their "friends" these same friends are getting technology elsewhere. These governments are not led anymore by the same pressures that once moved minds around in a matter of hours.



The governement of Venezuela is no friend of the US.

Additionally, the US did not say the Sukhois "were too much power" for the region, though that may be what's airing on Russian television. The reason the US opposed the sale was because of agreements in place between Sukhoi and the American governement and US manufacturers with whom Sukhoi does business. The US invoked those agreements when the Venezuelans approached Russia to purchase those planes. The Russians, more concerned about making money than honoring their commitments, chose to sell the planes. As a result, the US has placed Sukhoi on a "do-no-business list" prohibiting the transfer of parts and technology due to the sale of warplanes to an unfriendly government. Sukhoi and the Russian government has strongly protested the move by the US because it stands to lose a source of technology and materials to build its warplanes.

Sukhois are nothing more than expensive toys and targets in the hands of the Venezuelans.

LStarosta
08-30-2006, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by SkyChimp:
Sukhois are nothing more than expensive toys and targets in the hands of the Venezuelans.

All because they lack American M2 technology.

Jaws2002
08-30-2006, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by SkyChimp:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flockzap:
What the US officials wanted was (I´m quoting here) that the Russians withdraw immediately the proposal saying that was too much power for that part of the region. The Russians declined the American proposal and completed the sale.

The problem is that since the american industry is ******ing the sale of technology for their "friends" these same friends are getting technology elsewhere. These governments are not led anymore by the same pressures that once moved minds around in a matter of hours.



The governement of Venezuela is no friend of the US.

Additionally, the US did not say the Sukhois "were too much power" for the region, though that may be what's airing on Russian television. The reason the US opposed the sale was because of agreements in place between Sukhoi and the American governement and US manufacturers with whom Sukhoi does business. The US invoked those agreements when the Venezuelans approached Russia to purchase those planes. The Russians, more concerned about making money than honoring their commitments, chose to sell the planes. As a result, the US has placed Sukhoi on a "do-no-business list" prohibiting the transfer of parts and technology due to the sale of warplanes to an unfriendly government. Sukhoi and the Russian government has strongly protested the move by the US because it stands to lose a source of technology and materials to build its warplanes.

Sukhois are nothing more than expensive toys and targets in the hands of the Venezuelans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So do you mean only US has the right to sell weapons in the world. You forgot Afganistan. Us sold all kind of High tech stuff to the same guys they are fighting now, just to piss off the Russians. Now they are in the exact situation the Russians were back then.
You also forgot Pakistan that was quickly made a "friend' of the US and got F-16 just to piss the Russians in Afghanistan.
Why do you think Sukhoi is so evil now? US is not even at war with Venezuela. Venezuela is no treat to US, with or without the rusty planes they got.

Is all big business and some friends of Bush lost a contract. That's all it is.
Is oil and money.

SkyChimp
08-30-2006, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
So do you mean only US has the right to sell weapons in the world.


No, anyone can sell weapons. But if a country does it in violation of agreements, they should expect to pay the price. Those agreements are in place for a reason. Sukhoi agreed to not sell fighters to certain countries without US authorization because their products contained US technology or materials, or because the company had reciprocal agreements with other US firms. Sukhoi did it anyway, and will now pay the price. If they didn't want to abide by the conditions of the agreements, they shouldn't have entered into them.




You forgot Afganistan. Us sold all kind of High tech stuff to the same guys they are fighting now, just to piss off the Russians.


All kinds??? Stinger missiles. Big deal. That kind of weapon and technology would have been available in a Moscow back alley to any Afghani with a briefcase full of money had the Soviets not been fighting them. As it stands now, the Taliban and al Queda troops the US is fighting are carrying Russian weapons.




Now they are in the exact situation the Russians were back then.


Hardly. Back then the Afghani government was an puppet of the Soviet Union. The rebels fighting them were supported by the US. After the Soviets withdrew, the Afghan goverment was toppled. A coalition formed a new government. After that, the Taliban formed, (supported by Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and UAE - NOT the US) and toppled the coalition goverment. That toppled coalition and its supporters regrouped in the north and became known as the Northern Alliance. The Northern Alliance has the disctiction of firing the first shots at the Taliban following 9/11. The Taliban has now been toppled and a democratic government has taken its place. Right now, the the US has a fraction of the troops in Afghanistan as the Soviets had, and are suffering a miniscule fraction of the casualties. That's a far cry from being in the "same situation."




You also forgot Pakistan that was quickly made a "friend' of the US and got F-16 just to piss the Russians in Afghanistan.


To "piss off the Russians?" How about to make sure the same thing that happened in Afghanistan didn't happen to Pakistan? Pakistan's government has been an ally of the US virtually since the country's birth.




Why do you think Sukhoi is so evil now? US is not even at war with Venezuela. Venezuela is no treat to US, with or without the rusty planes they got.


They may not be a threat now. But Hugo Chavez is a hardcore communist and definately an antagonist of the US. The only one talking about war between the US and Venezuala is Hugo Chavez.





Is all big business and some friends of Bush lost a contract. That's all it is.
Is oil and money.

So it's OK to arm a dictator that is actively supporting communist rebels in Colombia? Arming Chavez is not in anyone's best interest. And if it were solely about money, the US would have sold more F-16s nd parts to Chavez. But we have to live in the real world, not yours.

BfHeFwMe
08-30-2006, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
i think the american gov or some agency tried to have him killed a few years back. hes not been too keen on america since then, curiously enough.

hes like the new castro or che, which is cool http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Feel free to move there. LoL

wayno7777
08-30-2006, 10:05 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/wayno77/FB%20shots/Aircraft/SpecialF-16.jpg
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

Te_Vigo
08-31-2006, 03:27 AM
FMD! Now there's a bloke/ gal who becomes one with his/ her aircraft.

.....tossing that thing around like a sportscar; I dips me lid.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Badsight-
08-31-2006, 04:31 AM
Originally posted by flockzap:

The Su-37.

http://www.geocities.com/goose_topgun2000/su37.html White-711 is no more

was reverted back to SU-33 spec & put back into service



India were offered gear for their SU-30MKI that isnt fitted to Russian flankers . if you have the cash , they will supply

Badsight-
08-31-2006, 04:40 AM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
the Raptor and more so the Typhoon fly circles around a normal SU-30MK, Su-27,33 or even 37. no way to know that for sure , also - you seem to think the Typhoon is more capable than the Raptor in gaining a lock-on
?

the picture posted up above of the F-16XL , that plane would probably still be the best DF jet in the USAF today despite the Raptor , & despite being made in the early 80's

fact is in a Modern Air War , any plane with HOBBS & HEATERS is deadly . a Mig-21 fitted with both is as big a threat as a F-15 . & which country's pilots get the most stick time in training each year ?

the Isrealies

83 to ZERO against the Syrian SAF .

look at the Balkans , 2 Mig-29 without radar support were jumped by F-15 pilots , both got shot down

in a Modern Air War it goes way beyond which plane either side is feilding

ploughman
08-31-2006, 04:48 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
wonder how well western stuff would cope in india, its pretty hot and humid there.

hopefully none of the jets ever need be used in combat. just for airshows http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

India has a fairly mixed bag of equipment when it comes to aircraft. Sea Harriers, Hawker Hunters, Mirage 2000, Jaguars and various other types in addition to the Russian tech they acquired from the late 60s onwards. Their most recent large purchase was of Bae Hawk trainers which they need badly as their pilot training programme has been sorely missing a good jet trainer and has led to alot of accidents, especially amongst there Mi-21 types, and those fancy Sukhoi-30ms. In addition, they've a pretty competent home-grown aerospace industry that builds its own types and others under licsence and is developing a Light Combat Aircraft that probably won't ammount to anything (buy a Grippen) but'll give them some good experience. In the olden days India's navel gazing economic policies meant it had virtually no foreign exchange to finance the purchase of foreign jets, now that everything's begining to change India has the means to buy in tech and aircraft. Suppliers have taken note and it's feeding time at the aerospace zoo.

HuninMunin
08-31-2006, 04:58 AM
Originally posted by Badsight-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
the Raptor and more so the Typhoon fly circles around a normal SU-30MK, Su-27,33 or even 37. no way to know that for sure , also - you seem to think the Typhoon is more capable than the Raptor in gaining a lock-on
?

the picture posted up above of the F-16XL , that plane would probably still be the best DF jet in the USAF today despite the Raptor , & despite being made in the early 80's

fact is in a Modern Air War , any plane with HOBBS & HEATERS is deadly . a Mig-21 fitted with both is as big a threat as a F-15 . & which country's pilots get the most stick time in training each year ?

the Isrealies

83 to ZERO against the Syrian SAF .

look at the Balkans , 2 Mig-29 without radar support were jumped by F-15 pilots , both got shot down

in a Modern Air War it goes way beyond which plane either side is feilding </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought we were talking aerodynamics http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
The Typhoon is undoubtly the edge of flight characterisitcs right now.
And so far I have not seen 1 reliable test with the Raptor (a mock up fight f.e.).
The Typhoon owned against german Mig-29s and american F-15s.

ploughman
08-31-2006, 05:37 AM
I think Tiffies and Raptors are doing some stuff together at the moment. Tiffies are, allegedly doing OK at knifefighting. But the Raptor is supreme in the BVR engagement. Apparrently, the Raptor pilots were affraid that they might get rusty on close in stuff if all they did was kick arse in BVR, which is what they're unbeatable at. The Tiffies with PIRATE have a sort of electro/optical radar that's pretty handy though.

Here's a link to a forum discussion including some input by a Raptor pilot (Dozer).

Link (http://www.fencecheck.com/forums/index.php/topic,292.270.html)

tigertalon
08-31-2006, 06:07 AM
Originally posted by Badsight-:
look at the Balkans , 2 Mig-29 without radar support were jumped by F-15 pilots , both got shot down

in a Modern Air War it goes way beyond which plane either side is feilding

Agreed 100%. Imo, even if US used their late 70's tech in 2003 invasion of Irak, they'd still get the same succsess and same k/d ratio.

Still, engagement of Yugoslavian MiG-29s in 1999 is far far from one that you could take to draw conclusions from. Their maintenance was so poor, that malfunctions of their systems started on every flight one by another. Most of the aircraft took off with already initially broker Radar Warning Receiver, they had their radars broken, chaff/flare dispensers didn't work as they should etc etc plus they were outnumbered 4v1 in case of Dutch F16MLU and 4v2 against USAF F-15 (where it is up to date still, to be honest, unclear, what really happened. One of the wreckages was indeed a MiG29 without a doubt. The second one was unrecognisable, but this photo
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/fakemigwreck.jpg
was shown by many news agencies. "ANNUAL INSP" is something that for sure was never ever written on any russian fighter. Not claiming it's an F-15, just saying something is fishy around this engagement.)

Of course this night, where 3 MiG-29s allegedly went down in flames turned into a great chest punding fest in a style "Now, do you see that F15 really pwnz a MiG-29?

Well, to be frank, yugoslavian pilots had little chances no matter what they would fly. The claim, that F-15 is actually superior over MiG-29 should only take place if MiGs were properly maintained, were of the latest versions as F-15s were (MiG-29 SMT for example), they were maintained properly, had equally trained pilots and, ABOVE ALL, had same kind of bacup as F-15s had: AWACS, electronic warfare plane support, aerial tankers, same kind of intelligence on the enemy, etc etc...

whiteladder
08-31-2006, 06:41 AM
quote:

You forgot Afganistan. Us sold all kind of High tech stuff to the same guys they are fighting now, just to piss off the Russians.



All kinds??? Stinger missiles. Big deal. That kind of weapon and technology would have been available in a Moscow back alley to any Afghani with a briefcase full of money had the Soviets not been fighting them. As it stands now, the Taliban and al Queda troops the US is fighting are carrying Russian weapons.


Actually it was a big deal, the introduction of Stinger had a massive impact on the fighting in Afganistan. It is should be remembered that back in the 80`s Stinger was at least 10 years ahead of the anything that could be bought in a Moscow back street. The Stingers ability to detect emissions from helicopters dramatically hindered the Soviets freedom of movement in the mountains of Afgainstan, no compariable Soviet missile could have done that job back then.

They were also supplied with Blowpipe by the British, but this was disliked because it was more complex to operate.

And while it is true that "the Taliban and al Queda troops the US is fighting are carrying Russian weapons." it should be remembered that many of these weapons were purchased not from Russia but from the arms bizaars in Pakistan with money supplied by the West to fight Russians. Indeed many Mujahadeen fighters were taught guerrilla tactics by Western special forces.

What ever your outlook Afganistan was a pawn in the struggle between the superpowers, both sides help to destabilize the region. What we have now has just fill the vacuum left by having only one superpower.

HuninMunin
08-31-2006, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
I think Tiffies and Raptors are doing some stuff together at the moment. Tiffies are, allegedly doing OK at knifefighting. But the Raptor is supreme in the BVR engagement. Apparrently, the Raptor pilots were affraid that they might get rusty on close in stuff if all they did was kick arse in BVR, which is what they're unbeatable at. The Tiffies with PIRATE have a sort of electro/optical radar that's pretty handy though.

Here's a link to a forum discussion including some input by a Raptor pilot (Dozer).

Link (http://www.fencecheck.com/forums/index.php/topic,292.270.html)

Interesting, thank you very much for the link.
The Raptor will probably be one of the most advanced air superiority fighters ever build, no doubt.
I am a little bit sceptical about the concept, though.
If you think about the possible payload a Flanker or Typhoon ( or even a Rafale for that matter) can take up, it becomes visible that the Raptor is lacking the punch of those systems.
It could be equiped with a similar array of weapons, but you would automaticaly loose the stealth aspect of the design, leaving it inferior to those jets dedicated for flight performence.
If you have a full stealth Raptor and you add the real failure statistic of modern AAMs, it is doubtfull that it would make a impacting combat presence, besides the suprise effect.
And the PIRATE system (ectually born through the EOS system of the Flanker and Mig series)
is probably a factor that would cancel some of the stealth value.
But as you said, all we can do here is speculate.

DHC2Pilot
08-31-2006, 10:37 PM
While it is obviously true that the Sukhoi SU-27/30/33/35/37 family of fighters have incredible maneuverability and are real jaw-droppers at airshows, these maneuvers are of little value in a combat scenario. The first time a fighter pilot sees one of these maneuvers being performed they would be more or less shocked, but the second time they would know exactly where the airplane will be throughout the maneuver and will simply blow it out of the air. I imagine slow speed maneuvering like this is also discharging huge amounts of exhaust heat in a wide area around the aircraft which would make IR or heat seeking missiles all the more effective.

Fun to watch though!!!

whiteladder
09-01-2006, 01:55 AM
While it is obviously true that the Sukhoi SU-27/30/33/35/37 family of fighters have incredible maneuverability and are real jaw-droppers at airshows, these maneuvers are of little value in a combat scenario. The first time a fighter pilot sees one of these maneuvers being performed they would be more or less shocked, but the second time they would know exactly where the airplane will be throughout the maneuver and will simply blow it out of the air. I imagine slow speed maneuvering like this is also discharging huge amounts of exhaust heat in a wide area around the aircraft which would make IR or heat seeking missiles all the more effective.

Fun to watch though!!!


I think most things that any aircraft does at an airshow are of little value in combat. What it does show is that the Su have extreme pointing ability, ironically less important for Russian aircraft because their short range missiles already have exceptional off boresight capabilities.

So while in combat you might not see your opponent perform a cobra (or some of the other things in the video which I don`t even think have names!) you do know if he needs to point his nose at you to get off a shot he can and will still be in control.

Badsight-
09-01-2006, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
If you have a full stealth Raptor and you add the real failure statistic of modern AAMs, it is doubtfull that it would make a impacting combat presence, besides the suprise effect. i think you underestimate the raptors power & manouverability , especially if you think the Typhoon is more advanced

the Raptor may weigh a third more than the eagle , but the power & efficiency of the P&W's more than make up for it

the "real" hit-score of amraams ? of the 4 fired , 4 planes got shot down - but how are you going to lock Raptors BVR ? - they had over 400 kills against Hornets & Eagles & Vipers in the planes development testing before an Eagle pilot managed an unofficial & unproven lock-on & are out-turning all 3 in mock combat

& what official testing shows is Raptors "killing" everything while out-numbered without suffering loss & never being detected except for visually

unlike the Eurofighter the Raptor doesnt have to rely on superior performance (which it has anyway) , with real radar stealth modern air combat changes . & its something the external pylon Typhoons dont have . whats the point of more missiles than the other guy when you cant find him - & if you see him , cant lock-on

AFJ_Skyghost
09-01-2006, 02:46 AM
What you can t see is what will kill you.
All that low speed manouvering is outstanding but what use would it have if you can t detect the plane that will shoot you down BVR.
I m not an air combat expert but in my opinion stealth is the name of the game now

tigertalon
09-01-2006, 03:17 AM
Sorry, guys, I don't wanna spoil your chest tumbing fest, but things many times ain't that simple. While Raptor is an incredible fighter no doubt about that, bashing maneouverability usefullness of Su27 family in combat is not only silly, but also naive IMO.

Anyone remembers MiG-17 (with no missiles or radar at all) versus an F-4 (with 4 x sparrow + 4 x sidewinder)?

Of course I strongly believe a raptor will eat any member of Su-27 family for breakfast in most cases. But we all have to know that a single raptor costs as much as 5 or 7 Su-30MKIs. In this case I'd take sukhois, no questions bout it.

And another thing: BVR missiles are far far from perfect. With merge speeds as we have them now, fighters will meet and engage in CAC in no time in case BVRs miss (which in many cases they will). It's not like you have half an hour of time to wait and check whether your missile has hit or not, and fire another BVR one.

I repeat: 1v1 raptor is unbeatable, but that's like you are comparing 1 apple versus 1 cherry. Why not comparing 1 USD of apples with 1 USD of cherrys?

Badsight-
09-01-2006, 03:34 AM
Raptor pilots do constant out-numbered training

2 v 6

4 v 8

the results say the non-Raptor planes all get killed

you cant compare the 60s era to today , the radar & infomation technology change the way combat happens

also , you think BVR technology is stagnant ?

the Raptor may not be able to replicate what the Flanker can perform , but its not designed to fight that way

ploughman
09-01-2006, 03:41 AM
Check this out.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/mctomney/f22.jpg

Interesting or what?

Reminds me of an Abrams I saw before Desert Shield became Desert Storm that had about 15 kill rings painted on its main gun.

tigertalon
09-01-2006, 03:54 AM
Originally posted by Badsight-:
Raptor pilots do constant out-numbered training

2 v 6

4 v 8

the results say the non-Raptor planes all get killed


While this is most likely true, it would be kinda silly to expect military officials to admit that the new fighter that costed taxpayers SO much money, to be beaten by 30 years old planes.


Originally posted by Badsight-:
you cant compare the 60s era to today , the radar & infomation technology change the way combat happens

Of course you can't. But you can be very sure that latest Su-27 versions are something COMPLETELY different than first T-10 prototype that flew in 1964


Originally posted by Badsight-:
also , you think BVR technology is stagnant ?


Not stagnant of course, very dynamic. But as the missiles get improved, so go the defensive systems, ECM, decoys... Do you believe AIM-120C would have better hit ratio versus latest Su compared to hit ratio of AIM-7 versus MiGs in Vietnam?


Originally posted by Badsight-:
the Raptor may not be able to replicate what the Flanker can perform , but its not designed to fight that way

Agreed, it is not. But if the BVR missiles fail (I repeat: IF they fail - just in those cases), he is FORCED to (like flanker was FORCED in a BVR combat initially, which places it into an unfavourable position verus raptor at the beginning).

And, IMO there is WAY less things raptor can't do that Su can than vice versa.

F19_Orheim
09-01-2006, 05:18 AM
I just threw up.... !!! Darn that was nervewrecking to see... I just waited to see a ball of fire...

HuninMunin
09-01-2006, 07:37 AM
I don't have doubts that the Raptor is exceptional in dogfight.
But o asume it could manouvre with Sukois our Typhoons or Rafales or Gripen or even F-16s is overestimating the thrust vectoring in combat manouvers.
Its a matter of design, not engine power.
Besides that, Im rather pessimistic if it comes to the tests that have been going on.
The F-22 programm is years behind scedual and has a system price that is just ridiculus for its capabilitys.
A Typhoon or Sukoi can perform multyble tasks, can carry a vast display of weaponry, both AA and AG.
The Raptor lacks purpose.

And to talk about a fictional engagement between the new top fighters, the Raptor and Typhoon; just to compare the the two.

A BVR engagement would start with the surprise attack of our F-22.
The DASS (Defensive Aids Subsystem) of the Typhoon detects any incoming missiles with a range of 100-110 km.
This means two things.
1. The Typhoon is aware of the thread and can conduct counter measures (completely automated if desired).
2. The Typhoons flight charachteristics allow it to out fly the parameters of any modern BVR Missile, fired from that range.

As a result to that, the Raptor has to close in to get a better shot at the Eurofighter.

Theres where PIRATE (Passive Infrared Airborne Tracking Equipment) comes into the game.
Its use enables the Typhoon to not activate the radar, wich makes it harder to lock on.
But more important, it can detect a fighter sized plane within a range of 40 miles+, stealth or not stealth.
So in this close area the Raptor is just a normal fighter, no unvisible hunter.

Now add the Typhoons capabilitys in pure flight power.
It has two EJ-200 engines, both give 90 kN of thrust while only being 1035 kg each.
You have an airplane that weights 23000 kg in max. take of config. with a thrust of about
75000 hp.
With AtA armament the Typhoon needs 150 seconds from take of to 10 km altitude.

It will most certantly get in a favorable position to the Raptor.
Further add weapons like IRIS-T or METEOR and you can imagine what I'm talking about.

But to come back to the concept of the two aircraft: The Raptor is hardly good for real multyroling ( thats why you have the FB-22 floating trough the rumor fog).
The Typhoon is fully intigrated as a AtG platform, performing anything from tank hunt over CAP to SEAD.

To make it a round thing one has to say that the Raptor is in a development stage the Typhoon was at about 3-4 years ago.

The Raptor is an impressive aircraft, but highly overrated in my opinion.

Blottogg
09-01-2006, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
Check this out.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/mctomney/f22.jpg

Interesting or what?

Reminds me of an Abrams I saw before Desert Shield became Desert Storm that had about 15 kill rings painted on its main gun.

Ploughman, I think those are QF-4 silouettes. No doubt the Raptor has been doing a lot of live-fire testing to collect weapons system performance data. I just hope they remembered to use LO paint.

ploughman
09-01-2006, 08:58 AM
I googled QF-4 and it's a target drone. You have no idea how disapointed I am.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

KaleunFreddie
09-01-2006, 09:29 AM
You lot must think...
As from our past experiences, probably only a few will be correct in their assumptions/predictions (Billy Mitchell and a few others). the rest of you will be following blind patriotism and belief that their equipment is better http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Then one day, there came the 'proving grounds', and many a keen hero was lost, because the masses believed they were right.
Air war theories will be once again re-written, but looking back at history - this has all happened before.. a 1000+ times
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HayateAce
09-08-2006, 05:23 PM
http://protos.dk/public/pictures/protos05/all_your_base.jpg

BillyTheKid_22
09-09-2006, 09:33 AM
Howdy!!! P-38 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif