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XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 11:51 AM
It's a big wet thing called the English Channel. if it wasn't there, most likely we'd all be remembering Hitler as a hero. bloody scary thought that.

God save the Queen in the Land of hope and Glory.

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 11:51 AM
It's a big wet thing called the English Channel. if it wasn't there, most likely we'd all be remembering Hitler as a hero. bloody scary thought that.

God save the Queen in the Land of hope and Glory.

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 12:00 PM
Thats pretty common knowledge for any history buff, and has been posted on here before.

On another note...

Hope and Glory? Tell me thats not Englands moto.

I mean a crippled kid could hope to play in the NFL but he never will.

And Glory just reminds me of the movie "Glory" about a bunch of soldiers who Gloriously charged to their deaths.

I much prefer Land of the Free and home of the Brave! lol /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

Fair play to the Queen eh?

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 12:07 PM
hahaha. shhhh

Land of Hope and Glory is the Name of a Song actually. come to think of it, so is god save the queen.

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 05:23 PM
Hopperfly22 wrote:
- Thats pretty common knowledge for any history buff,
- and has been posted on here before.
-
- On another note...
-
- Hope and Glory? Tell me thats not Englands moto.
-
- I mean a crippled kid could hope to play in the NFL
- but he never will.
-
- And Glory just reminds me of the movie "Glory" about
- a bunch of soldiers who Gloriously charged to their
- deaths.
-
- I much prefer Land of the Free and home of the
- Brave! lol
-
- Fair play to the Queen eh?
-
- Every take-off is optional, but every landing is
- mandatory!

But who knows why? Maybe it's because he's a complete ignoramus (just look it up) or maybe it's just another 4 year old learning to type.

- Hope and Glory? Tell me thats not Englands moto.
Ok, thats not Englands moto, you no what a moto is? hmm

- I mean a crippled kid could hope to play in the NFL
- but he never will.
From various posts I have read on this forum from your countrymen I gather this would be a ******? England has no NFL but yes you do seem to have grasped the meaning of the word hope, well done.

- I much prefer Land of the Free and home of the
- Brave! lol
Why doesn't that surprise me.. I prefer land of the fat and home of the biggot (dictionary time again huh?)

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 05:25 PM
Poles in Spitfires and Hurricanes.

or, in the future,

Ben Affleck, and possibly one of the Baldwins (who's name is Legion).

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 05:27 PM
Uspoon wrote:
- Why doesn't that surprise me.. I prefer land of the
- fat and home of the biggot (dictionary time again
- huh?)

Indeed it is, or at least spell-check time. Yer pullin' too many g's, son.


---
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(If I knew who said that first, I'd give credit here.)

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XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 05:36 PM
He never intended to. The BoB was a big bluff to try and make Britain sue for peace. He thought that by knocking out the RAF they would come to the table. All the while, his intentions were against Russia.

That he failed in this was the turning point of WW2, and he failed because the Luftwaffe came up against the most formidable air defense system the world had ever seen, and it never recovered.

"If I had all the money I've spent on drink....I'd spend it on drink!"

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 06:21 PM
My mum

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 06:50 PM
Well, ummm your both almost right....

The invasion plan for England was called Operation Sea Lion. Going against orders a courier took a ME 108 Taufin (spelling) as a trasnport to transport the orders. The pilot of the plane got lost and ended up crash landing in England and both were captured and the plans recovered, thus the suprise was stopped.

Germany lost the Battle of Britian not because of the defenses being overwhelming, but do to the change in strategy. Instead of focusing on destroying the RAF, Hitler switched to terror bombing the main cities. With London being fo far North, the short range fighters simply couldn't provide adequate fighter cover. This gave the RAF a break and a chance to get caught up with fighter production.

Hawgdog
10-02-2003, 06:58 PM
scootertgm wrote:
- Well, ummm your both almost right....
-
- The invasion plan for England was called Operation
- Sea Lion. Going against orders a courier took a ME
- 108 Taufin (spelling) as a trasnport to transport
- the orders. The pilot of the plane got lost and
- ended up crash landing in England and both were
- captured and the plans recovered, thus the suprise
- was stopped.


Yes, good triumph over evil. Believe it.

Remember the attack that killed the jap general flying in a betty after the FG had to go all that distance and lost a flier early on? Cant recall the names, I know someone here will. Thats back when you'd get lost if you lost sight of shore!!

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XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 07:00 PM
[knock-knock-knock]

'Oo's that, then?'

(voice from the other side of the door)

"Um, ist nicht Adolf Hitler."

'It's that bloody 'itler again -- third time today! 'e tried to sell me encyclopedias th' last time! CLEAR OFF -- WE DON'T WANT ANY!'

"Um, ok, I am goink avay now . . . I am very far avay, many, many kilometers . . very var avay . . ."

(five second later)

[knock-knock-knock!]

'BLOODY 'ELL! 'Oo is it, and it best not be that Mr. 'itler again!'

"Um, it is me, Herr Herman Goering . . . und nicht Adolf Hitler."

'That's it! I'm calling the RAF!'

"NIEN!"

'I warned you!'

"Is nicht on ze callingk of ze RAF!"

'Are you going to go away?'

"Ja!"

'Are you REALLY going to go away?'

"Ummm . . . jaaa?"

'You're not going to go away -- you're going to hide in the philedendron bush and come back five seconds later!'

"Vould you like to buy a cross-channel invasion?"

''ow much issit?'

"25 bob and 2 shillings for each additional volume."

'That's not a cross-channel invasion, it' a bloody EN-CYCLOPEDIA!'

"GOTT ENM HIMMEL, I AM ***T!"

''allo, Islington -- would you send a squadron of Hurricanes around? Bleedin' 'itler won't get off my doorstep!'


YES!

YOU CAN STOP THE Nazi ENCYCLOPEDIA MENACE! WHENEVER TROUBLESOME GERMAN LEADERS COME 'ROUND TO YOUR FLAT, DIAL THE R.A.F. AND WE'LL GIVE 'EM "WOT FOR"!

This helpful message brought to you by:

The RAF: Pointing and Laughing at those Sots in the Trenches since World War I.

[cue 'God Save The Queen']

---
"My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori."

-- Wilfred Owen,
"Dulce et Decorum est"

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 08:09 PM
And lack of long-range bombers. Would have come in handy against Britain and relocated Russian factories over the Urals.

Thanks -- I'll re-login and look for an answer!!

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 08:17 PM
Victory in the Battle of Britain was only half the reason Sea Lion was imposable. Shall I mention The Queen's Royal Navy?

Notice that in Normandy the Allies had air and sea superiority.

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XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 08:21 PM
M.Beebe: LOL!

very python-esqe.

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"Death before Unconsciousness" - Uncle Duke

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 08:23 PM
If the Germans had used all of their military might instead of a proportion of it I think they probably could have invaded. A huge proportion of materials were put aside for the inevitable invasion of Russia. Still the Royal Navy held superiority at sea so the invasion force would have had problems.

It's all very hypothetical but the Germans knew about radar so they should have spent more resorces on taking out the stations and infrastructure. Had they continued bombing the airfields, used paratroops to secure a port and then with air superiority tried an invasion I think they would have succeeded.


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XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 08:55 PM
georgeo76 wrote:
- Victory in the Battle of Britain was only half the
- reason Sea Lion was imposable. Shall I mention The
- Queen's Royal Navy?

Wasn't it the King's Royal Navy in at the time of BoB? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



2 things we need in FB:
The 110 and the desert!!!
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XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 09:03 PM
Hawgdog wrote:

-
- Yes, good triumph over evil. Believe it.
-
- Remember the attack that killed the jap general
- flying in a betty after the FG had to go all that
- distance and lost a flier early on? Cant recall the
- names, I know someone here will. Thats back when
- you'd get lost if you lost sight of shore!!
-

That was Admiral Yamamoto who planned the Pearl Harbor attack. He was shot down by P-38's.

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 09:08 PM
georgeo76 wrote:
- Victory in the Battle of Britain was only half the
- reason Sea Lion was imposable. Shall I mention The
- Queen's Royal Navy?
-

The navy that was spread thin hunting down German surface raiders and trying to protect merchants from the U-boats?


- Notice that in Normandy the Allies had air and sea
- superiority.
-


Hate to break this to you, but that's only because of the massive American presence.

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 10:48 PM
Had to be Hitler's distaste for Fish n Chips, Bangers and Mash and Kidney Pies. Oh and the cold and rain even in summer.

Happy hunting and check six!

Tony Ascaso, RN

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-02-2003, 11:14 PM
And I thought the brown aliens that came to Germany 1939 and left 1945 without a trace, just were scared by Stonenge?

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 11:17 PM
Quoted by Scootertqm:

"Germany lost the Battle of Britian not because of the defenses being overwhelming, but do to the change in strategy. Instead of focusing on destroying the RAF, Hitler switched to terror bombing the main cities. With London being fo far North, the short range fighters simply couldn't provide adequate fighter cover. This gave the RAF a break and a chance to get caught up with fighter production."

I didn't say overwhelming...I said the best air defense system in the world, which it was.

They changed tactics because they weren't getting the results they wanted doing what they were doing, and hoped that terror bombing would (a) break the spirit of the populace and the Government. (b) Force the RAF up to fight with everything they had.

The problem with the LW's aim to get the RAF into the air so that they could be subsequently destroyed was that it wasn't quite happening. The RAF was knocking down bombers and fighters together at a favourable ratio of 1.8 to 1. The LW were losing airmen at a rate of 5 to 1, and never got near the kill ratio they needed to destroy he RAF, namely, 5:1 in their favour.

It did neither.

It did give the RAF a break, true, but was irrelevant with respect to fighter production. Fighters weren't produced at airfields, which were the pricipal targets mid-August to mid September, and the Luftwaffe waited till late September before they finally bombed the very obvious Supermarine works at Southampton

Out of the 'Main Cities', London is one of the most southernly, if you know your English Geography /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

besides Hitler really didn't invade because he discovered British beer was flat, and served warm. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif




"If I had all the money I've spent on drink....I'd spend it on drink!"

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 11:17 PM
scootertgm wrote:
-
- georgeo76 wrote:
-- Victory in the Battle of Britain was only half the
-- reason Sea Lion was imposable. Shall I mention The
-- Queen's Royal Navy?
--
-
- The navy that was spread thin hunting down German
- surface raiders and trying to protect merchants from
- the U-boats?
-

I dont think you can say the Royal Navy was spread thin, true it didn't have as many convoy escort vessels as it needed but its battle fleet of Cruisers and Battleships could still have seen off an invasion fleet no sweat.

And in reality I think if an invasion fleet had begun sailing toward the coast of Britain then this would have been the priority for most of not all ships to attack.

Anyway there wasn't enough U-Boats in 1940 to protect the invasion fleet or even seriously dwindle the enormous British Merchant Fleet.

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 12:16 AM
Had the RAF been wiped out, I'm pretty sure that the Luftwaffe would have been able to secure the area for the invasion force. With total air superiority and nearby bomber fleets, they should be able to hunt the british ships that'd come closer.

Anyway I think the 1000+ planes lost by the LW during the Battle of France did a lot of good for the Battle of Britain. I can't imagine what would happen if the LW had hundreds of extra planes to throw into battle.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 03:55 AM
operation sealion was planned in 6 months( d day was 2 years of planning) the luftwaffe was to gain total air superiority and the kreigsmarine was to tug small landing craft to the shore. Artifical fog was to be in use also to cover the troops and this was supposed to take place at night. a pack of u boats was to clear the others through. This operation was tried out by hitler with very depressing hope of being a sucess. 50-65% made it to the shore, some sank and one boat got lost.... lol... but any way the sucess rate was little and the fact that this took place in daylight under no enemy fire and other controlled factors, but with all these negatives there were more positives that should and could have happened. if they would have started planning at the early stages of the war they would have concieved a brillant plan, this should have been a top prioity knowing the british invasion would have been the hardest to achieve, or even a couple months more of planning. Germany was still on its roll of victory and could have crushed british defenses if these two things went into play.

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 07:18 AM
Goering begged Hitler to let the Luftwaffe finish the English off at Dunkirk. Hitler knew better, but relented to Goerings almost childlike pleas. The Luftwaffe failed and the British EF made a successful evasion at Dunkirk thanks to the small boats, Hitler Was furious, and Goering again pleaded with Hitler to let the Luftwaffe "win the war" so to speak in the Battle of Britian. They set about it correctly but as history shows switching the bombing from RAF airfields and Channel Convoys bringing in supplies to England, and switching bombing to the citys by Hitlers order was Germanys downfall. the Luftwaffe was exhausted and battered and could not effectively put up the propeer numbers need for Operation "Sealion", thus Hitler turned his interests to the East.the rest as they say is history...

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 09:24 AM
I am not sure of the truth in this, but my father who was there at that time swears that they set the channel on fire. I assume he was alluding to the use of heavy crude oil that would float on the sea. On the lighter side (excuse the pun) I guess the crew from Sunhill might have been waiting for Adolf and they would have pulled him in pretty quickly.

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-03-2003, 10:11 AM
Hitler wasn't able to win the war against Britain, because it was mainly counting on massive panzer-units and their force, pushing forward, until the enemy was broken. It succeeded in France, Italy, to some degree in NorthAfrica and until the supply was crippled by the too fast push and the too long distances across muddy roads, it even worked against Russia.

All of Hitlers weapons were build for this kind of war, the panzers, the heavy artillery, the PAKs, the Sturmtruppen and even the Luftwaffe.

Ju87 and He111 (to just name the planes in FB /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ), played a vital role in this scenario, too. Most planes were built for medium and short range, to pound the enemy out of their fortifications, before the soldiers attacked.

With UK, this wasn't the same warfare. The distance to the targets on the southern coast was about all the Bf's could reach with enough reserves to stand a fight. Until that point, the doctrine was to send out fighters to clear the path and send bombers to attack the ground targets.
That worked quite well and the airfields were drawn back in UK. So far back it was simply out of reach for effective bombardments. This was one reason for the new plan, to massively bomb cities to break the will of the British, together with bombing the factories and all other big targets.
But even with extended range, the BFs weren't able to protect the He111 effectively and that fact was completely missunderstood by Goering. Instead of increasing the capacity, he changed the doctrine and the fighters were ordered to stay with the bombers, instead of doing sweeps to clear the path. they were ordered to actually fly WITH the bombers. That was the death sentence for the Luftwaffe. Besides that, targeting factories is even with the (relative) precision strikes of the USAAFs B17 is still a largely doubted part of winning the war. (Not to speak of bombing cities - that strategy didn't work for any city and any country.)



greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


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XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 10:27 AM
As usual, everybody is right and everybody is wrong. The factors were very complex.
The military college assesment is that:
if Adolf had tried to activate Operation Sealion the casualties for both the Royal Navy and for the German Army would have been heavy.
Sealion would have been a failure.
The size of the casualties suffered by the German Army would have prevented Operation Yellow, the invasion of Russia.
The Second World War would most likely then have been prolonged.

These are the strategic implications of this thread. The details of the BOB are tactical, the choice of bomber targets, the comparative range of the fighters etc all had an effect on the outcome.In fact one of the biggest factors was the width of the bf109`s undercarriage,1500 trainee 109 pilots were killed learning to take off or land in the first two years of the war.
Basically the RAF beat the Luftwaffe;
109 pilots 109 pilots % losses as%
available operational opera. available
July 1126 906 80% 11%
August 1118 869 78% 15%
September 990 735 74% 23%

Thatis nearly 200 pilots killed in 3 months ( no re-fly button available!)

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 10:43 AM
blackwulf_18 wrote:
- As usual, everybody is right and everybody is wrong.
- The factors were very complex.
- The military college assesment is that:
- if Adolf had tried to activate Operation Sealion
- the casualties for both the Royal Navy and for the
- German Army would have been heavy.
-
- Sealion would have been a failure.
- The size of the casualties suffered by the German
- Army would have prevented Operation Yellow, the
- invasion of Russia.
- The Second World War would most likely then have
- been prolonged.


Eh... ? What military college made that assesment? And how did they reach the conclusion that initial heavy losses to the German Army would prolong the war?

Shouldn't they try to get better text books as well? After all Fall Gelb (Operation Yellow) was the invasion of France - not the Soviet Union. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

cheers/slush

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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-03-2003, 10:58 AM
Hm, I doubt Hitler was that logical.

(Besides the fact FallGelb WAS the invasion of France)


If Britain had fallen, US would have had a really hard play to get a foot in the european war theater. UK was nothing more than a stationary aircraft carrier and a place to regroup and transport their forces to.

The lack of pilots was also a result of the mistake, that every war could be won with the army. Hitler was an infantry-soldier himself in WW2 and despite his generals, he always prefered the Wehrmacht over the Luftwaffe. The Luftwaffe was only a concept of supporting ground units, nothing else.
Besides that, Hitler focused on future designs to gain air superiority by technology, not by numbers, as it would have cost him too much and he realized, they'd never be able to compete with the allied war production.
However, the quality of the production never reached the design specifications. Engines from the 262 were ruined after 24h usage.

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 03:04 PM
I wonder how high level of British partisan will take action against them? Strong than Dutch/France or give in like they did to Norsman Viking?

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 03:57 PM
I figure it was because Churchill didn't have any WMD's...

Bruno Weiss

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 11:59 PM
bweiss wrote:
- I figure it was because Churchill didn't have any
- WMD's...
-
- Bruno Weiss

Ummm...check this link http://www.nesa.org.uk/html/portland.htm

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 01:11 AM
Aren't we lucky an Aussie shot down Richtofen and Goering lived to make a mess of the LW?



IRON SKIES
As real as you want it to be.

fluke39
10-08-2003, 03:29 PM
Pentallion wrote:
- Aren't we lucky an Aussie shot down Richtofen and
- Goering lived to make a mess of the LW?
-


tee hee /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 05:35 PM
We all know Ben Affleck in a spitfire killed all the germans in the air and with no air support, they couldn't get troops across that water.

On top of that, Bon Jovi was cruising around in a stolen German sub sinking german ships left and right.

They didn't have a chance from the start.

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 08:55 PM
scootertgm wrote:
- Well, ummm your both almost right....
-
- The invasion plan for England was called Operation
- Sea Lion. Going against orders a courier took a ME
- 108 Taufin (spelling) as a trasnport to transport
- the orders. The pilot of the plane got lost and
- ended up crash landing in England and both were
- captured and the plans recovered, thus the suprise
- was stopped.

Actually, that's what happened to the original plans for the invasion of France, except that the Taifun crashed in France. It required the General Staff to go with some harebrained plan to attack France through Belgium (as usual)via the "impenetrable" Ardennes Forest with armored divisions.
-
- Germany lost the Battle of Britian not because of
- the defenses being overwhelming, but do to the
- change in strategy. Instead of focusing on
- destroying the RAF, Hitler switched to terror
- bombing the main cities. With London being fo far
- North, the short range fighters simply couldn't
- provide adequate fighter cover. This gave the RAF a
- break and a chance to get caught up with fighter
- production.

This part is generally correct, but you overlooked the effect of the return of Franz von Werra, the only German fighter pilot to escape the PoW camps in Canada. He described the horrors of British/Canadian cuisine to all who would listen, eventually destroying all incentive for potential participants in the planned invasion and occupation. Hitler finally decided to invade the USSR as an excuse for not following through with "Sea Lion" in the Spring of 1941, lacking sufficient numbers of motivated soldiers and airmen for it.
-
-
-
-
-
-



"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" - LCOL Don Blakeslee, CO, 4th FG, March, 1944

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 12:29 AM
After reading many posts in this forum I am amazed at how many Americans know nothing of matters outside their own country. And it takes a computer game to bring such matters to their interest. Do they not teach world history over there?

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 07:11 AM
- Hitler finally decided to invade the USSR as an
- excuse for not following through with "Sea Lion" in
- the Spring of 1941, lacking sufficient numbers of
- motivated soldiers and airmen for it.

A very expensive excuse, horseback. Actually the plans for Seel√¬∂we never ever exists. After war there were no facts or files found at the German archives to prove Seel√¬∂we had should take place at any state of the war. Seel√¬∂we was a bluff.

It's better said Seel√¬∂we was a good chance to hide the preperation for OP Barbarossa, the biggest Operation in WWII which was planned long before BoB started. Although the propagande showed another picture, the German leadership didn't like the fight against Britain - rather of emotional reasons than of technical related shortages or whatelse.



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XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 07:25 AM
CrackFerret wrote:
- We all know Ben Affleck in a spitfire killed all the
- germans in the air and with no air support, they
- couldn't get troops across that water.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif LOL+MW50!



Message Edited on 10/09/0306:26AM by BVG_Erick

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 01:18 PM
Actualy Guys,
Lets forget here for a minute that Hitler had no intentions of invading England.


England is not our natural enemy
Adolf Hitler.

Saburo Sakai, Japans top scoring surviving fighter ace from WW 2 once made the interesting statement that if the Germans had the Zero that there may not be an England today.
He also added that because of the Zeros extreme long range, you where not stressed with worry about running out of fuel during a dog fight.

Interesting isnt it, the Spitfires and Hurricanes of 1940 where short Range point interceptors, ideal for local defence.
Yet a Japanese Zero taking off from a channel coast Axis fighter base could roam to the farest points of the British Isles get involved in a dog fight and be the best turning fighter in the contest, then follow his opponent home and shoot him down as he tried to land, because the Spit or Hurri pilot would have only had two choices,
1, return to base nearly out of fuel.
2. Bail out during the middle of the fight because his plane was out of fuel.
Either way the extreme long range fighter wins and the RAF loses another fighter.

Actualy the Zero had such long range they could have had standing patrols over any RAF airbase anywhere in the British Isles.

RAF Fighter command could have been eliminated in the first week of the Battle.
The ZERO would have been the Ultimate tactical fighter in the Battle of Britain scenario, no other fighter aircraft at the time could have matched its ability to stay airbourne over Britain for most of the day,( on a single sortie) that would have been the down fall of RAF fighter Command.
Fortunatly for the British the Zero was operating half a World away.

S!



Message Edited on 10/09/0312:23PM by Artic_Wulf

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 04:21 PM
- Fortunatly for the British the Zero was operating
- half a World away.

Actually the Zero was hardly operating at all. The A6M2 was accepted for production on the 31st July 1940, three weeks after the BoB had started. 15 preproduction models were field tested in China, but that's about it during the timeframe of the battle.

By the time of the Pearl Harbor attack, December 1941, the Japanese had about 400 Zeros in service, compared to the Luftwaffe having over 1000 109s at the start of the BoB.

- Actualy the Zero had such long range they could have
- had standing patrols over any RAF airbase anywhere
- in the British Isles.

Even if they'd had the numbers of Zeros, standing patrols over an airfield are an excellent way to lose planes to flak.

The Germans tried the frei jagd during the BoB, it was largely innefective because the RAF could route fighters away from the German fighters and attack the unprotected bombers.

There's a popular myth that the Germans were doing well until Goering ordered close escort of the bombers, the reverse is actually true. With close escort, the RAF's losses went up, the German's went down.

You can only afford to abandon close escort when you have a huge numerical superiority. The German's didn't. Possibly with all the Zeros the IJN had at the time of PH as well as the 109s the Luftwaffe had during the BoB, but not with a simple 1:1 109:Zero replacement.

- RAF Fighter command could have been eliminated in
- the first week of the Battle.

Hardly. The Zero has a range avantage, but a number of key disadvatages against the Spitfire.

It's slower, especially above 15,000ft, where most of the bombers flew.

It has next to no armour, and very light construction. That plays to the strengths of the RAFs 8 gun fighters. Whilst the 303 was little use against armour, against a Zero you have 8 effective guns, throwing out 1,200 rounds a minute each.


- Actually the
- plans for Seel√¬∂we never ever exists. After war there
- were no facts or files found at the German archives
- to prove Seel√¬∂we had should take place at any state
- of the war. Seel√¬∂we was a bluff

On the contrary, there were detailed plans for Seel√¬∂we.

You can read some of the details on this thread, which has the OOB, some maps, original docs etc:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3268&highlight=sealion

There were even plans for which police units to be sent to enforce the occupation.

There's also a note in RV Jones' Most Secret War, saying that Churchill regarded the invasion as a bluff, until he began recieving detailed reports of the Enigma decrypts detailing the invasion. there also a mention of the first indication the invasion had been called off being an intercepted order to dismatle loading equipment to be used by the paratroopers based in Holland, which came through on 17th Sept, iirc.

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 04:25 PM
Sure they do ... we won!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 04:35 PM
- Do they not teach world history over there?

Sure they do ... we won!

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

(minor clarification)

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 04:50 PM
This thread reminds me of an awful Xmas a few years back. My mother-in-law is British, and we got into a discussion on WWII, it broke down to how the British were superior to the French, Dutch, Poles ( my parents were Polish ), etc in morals, inregrity, strength of character. All this despite the fact she had almost no knowledge of WWII history. I mentioned that the channel surely helped. She blew a gasket and threw me out of her house, on Christmas!! She even wouldn't aknowledge that Poles ( and Czechs, and Canadians, and Americans, and French, etc ) took any part in the BoB Ahh those Brits, if nothing else they have way too much pride.

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 04:51 PM
If instead of 800 Me-109's they had 800 He-100's, it could be different /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/reincarnation.jpg (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/)
Are you damned? (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/)
<

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 05:14 PM
"Ahh those Brits, if nothing else
- they have way too much pride."


Cheers! I do like a good *generalisation* in the afternoon to pass the time.

Ironically, I am British and I fully acknowledge the role that the Poles, French, Czechs etc...played in the part of WW2. "If nothing else", was it not a German that sold the enigma plans to the French who passed them to the Poles (who practically broke the code) who, subsequently, passed them onto England for Mr Turing to sort out?


Norris

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 05:34 PM
Perhaps I've been given a bad impression by my inlaws ( I've been told Poland is a "Loser Country" to my face ) and my Father's experience in England after being released from a POW camp. Attitudes have changed in 50yrs and I'm sorry if I offended you ( you're obviously more enlightened than the individuals I refer to and they do not represent the British population as a whole ), its just that my outlook has been colored by personal experience.

I do admire the British in many ways, so don't get me wrong, but you have to admit that they had a definate air of superiority for the longest time



Message Edited on 10/09/0304:51PM by MZ6

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 08:58 PM
Uspoon wrote:
- Why doesn't that surprise me.. I prefer land of the
- fat and home of the biggot (dictionary time again
- huh?)
-


Your little speech might have worked if it werent for this nice little bit of Steeotyping at the end.


Kettle to Pot: You are Black.

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 09:43 PM
Actualy Guys,
The Japanese Zero was in action over China in 1938, and it swept the opposition from the skys.
A warning sent to the US Military about this new Japanese fighter by some of the Flying Tigers in China was ignored.

As late as April 1942 the RAF was still not aware of the Extreme long range of the Zero.
Which had disasterouse consequences for 30th Squadron RAF based at Ceylon ( Sri Lanka)
They where caught and destroyed on the ground at Colombo Airbase because RAF command thought the Japanese Carriers sighted in the Indian Ocean where still too far away to launch an Air stike on Ceylon until the next day, or the day after.

In a Battle of Britian Scenario the 109 had a short Range and could only escort the Bombers as far as London.
A japanese Zero could have escorted Bombers all the way to Ireland and then hung around waiting for the Spitfires low on fuel and Ammo to land,
Then its Game over for the RAF defensive fighters in that area, shot down as they tried to land.
Then the Zero would still have enough fuel to hang around for more time yet.

The long Range Tactical fighter wins again.

S!

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 10:15 PM
EPP_Gibbs wrote:
- Quoted by Scootertqm:
-

-
- besides Hitler really didn't invade because he
- discovered British beer was flat, and served warm.
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


So is German beer.

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 02:03 AM
"-
- I do admire the British in many ways, so don't get
- me wrong, but you have to admit that they had a
- definate air of superiority for the longest time "

Air superiority, you mean? ;-)

Only slight offence was taken; after all, we are all biased by our immediate environments.

I think that any countryman will adopt an 'air of superiority' when it comes to referring to other countries and Europe has a long legacy of wars, double-crossing and territorial meanderings to support a lot of these 'views'.

You have to also remember that island races, as a general rule, tend to be detached and think themselves as 'better' than their continental counterparts (Japan, also, is often acccused of having 'inferior views' of continental Pacific Rim countries (and that is straight from several people that I know who live there).

As for me, I don't consider any country to be "inferior" but I do know that a lot of twerps in this land still think that Britain has an empire to defend/extend (re: football hooligans/football-shirt clad f*ckwits eating egg and chips in Spain and thinking they are absorbing foreign culture) and maybe you are confusing this with a superiority complex.

Not that I am generalising now, of course ;-)

Cheers,
Norris

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 02:10 AM
Artic_Wulf wrote:
-- Saburo Sakai, Japans top scoring surviving fighter
- ace from WW 2 once made the interesting statement
- that if the Germans had the Zero that there may not
- be an England today.
- He also added that because of the Zeros extreme long
- range, you where not stressed with worry about
- running out of fuel during a dog fight.
-
Thank you for remind me his name as I forget his name as I read statment about Zero can control whole sky over English as I left message in post use just "Japanese Officer"

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 02:29 AM
Artic_Wulf wrote:
- Actualy Guys,
- The Japanese Zero was in action over China in 1938,
- and it swept the opposition from the skys.
- A warning sent to the US Military about this new
- Japanese fighter by some of the Flying Tigers in
- China was ignored.
-
-

I hope you are putting us on./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The first prototpye "Zero" was not completed until March 16 1939. It did not fly until April 1 1939, April Fools Day. The IJN accepted the first "Zero" on Sept. 14 1939. The second prototype passed its manufacturing flight test on Oct. 18 1939. Flight testing of the third machine began on Jan. 18 1940.
The A6M2 (15) went to China on July 21 1940. Only 64 of the Model 11 had been completed by Nov. 1940 when the Model 21 entered production.

The AVG did not begin training until Sept. 1941 in Rangoon. They did not fly a combat mission until Dec. 20 1941.


http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 03:27 AM
Artic_Wulf wrote:
- Actualy Guys,
- The Japanese Zero was in action over China in 1938,
- and it swept the opposition from the skys.
- A warning sent to the US Military about this new
- Japanese fighter by some of the Flying Tigers in
- China was ignored.
-

AVG website said they never saw Zero in air battle.
quato "* No, sorry, the AVG never met the Zero in combat " http://www.danford.net/neumann.htm

"# Japanese aircraft encountered by the AVG " http://www.danford.net/planes.htm



Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 11:01 PM
Napoleon had the same problem...It didn't stop william in 1066 though...

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 11:43 PM
Ooops my Apolagies Guys, I got that Date Wrong ( happens now and then)
However I think the advantages of the Zero over the shorter range point interceptors of the RAF is obviouse.

As an example when later model Spitfires where trying to defend the Port of Darwin in 1942.
They where up against Japanese Betty Bombers and Zero fighter escorts that would take off from the Island of Timor hundreds of Miles away from Australia.
Now the Zero is really coming into its own as an extreme long range fighter escort for bombing Missions.
The Japanese would cruise climb to 30,000 ft (Awesome!)

The Spitfires Based around Darwin would take off in tropical heat (Darwin averages 30 degrees C every day of the year) and then have to climb to freezing altitudes.
I cannot remember off hand which mechanical component it was in the spitfire that froze under these conditions.
( perhaps you can he he )
But it caused the Spitfires engine to rev at maximum revolutions causing it to sieze, also they lost a lot of Spits that ran out of Fuel.

The Japanese Zero did not seem to encounter either of this problems, and they had the advantage of being able to wait above for a Spitfire trying to climb towards the Bombers.

In fact the latest model Spitfires in 1942 that where shipped to Australia for Northern defence prooved to be totaly inadequate for intercepting the Japanese Bombing raids of Northern Ports of Australia.
The succesfull interception rate for the Spitfire in this area of Operations would be an embarressment to the manufacturers and designers of the Spitfire.

So much for the much Vaunted Spitfire!

It really opens your eyes up to just what an outstanding aircraft the Zero was.
Any Aircraft that can operate under conditions the Spitfire could not handle and then beat that Spitfire in a turn fight at any Altitude, and then out range that Spitfires fighting Range ability had to be an extraordinary aircraft indeed.

S!

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 02:16 AM
I wonder what if Japanese create a "Air Force legion" and send a small carrier, for transfer and service navy planes, to German's side to fight against British. Of course A6M2's production was start in end of July 1940 so may not get number enough to send. only it's current navy fighter is A5M Claude, as I know it don't have enough firepower unless Japanese rush order on A6M for "testing" as same thing German did at Spanish civil war.

Regards
SnowLeopard