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View Full Version : Guns of 13mm (Bfs) X 12.7mm (.50) (Yak-3 & P-51)



XyZspineZyX
11-29-2003, 05:32 PM
Oleg


is very visible which the guns of 13mm of a Bf do a small damage if compared with guns of 12.7mm (.50) of Yak-3 or P-51. But these two calibers are very similars.

I think which the damage for the 13mm of the Bfs isn't OK.



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FAB_Devil
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XyZspineZyX
11-29-2003, 05:32 PM
Oleg


is very visible which the guns of 13mm of a Bf do a small damage if compared with guns of 12.7mm (.50) of Yak-3 or P-51. But these two calibers are very similars.

I think which the damage for the 13mm of the Bfs isn't OK.



Thanks,

FAB_Devil
"Traidores e covardes no sero perdoados!"
FAB Brazilian Official Team - www.brasilfab.com (http://www.brasilfab.com)

Senta a Pua!
1º/1º Grupo de Aviaço de Caça Senta a Pua!
Os Jambocks

ICQ 38792295

XyZspineZyX
11-29-2003, 05:41 PM
Really? I blew the tail off a P47 the other day with a nice burst.

Remember that to do serious damage in the P-51 you do need to have all six guns going. Yak 3's UB 12.7mm's are probably the best in the game that is true...highest velocity and most striking power but alot less ammo than what you get with the 109.

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XyZspineZyX
11-29-2003, 05:58 PM
Really? You blew the tail of a P47 with a nice burst? I think which you are the ace of the aces in the FB! hehehe

But in the real life, the german aces down 7 or more enemies with a Bf of 1942! Try this in the FB! is very difficult!

FAB_Devil.



Message Edited on 11/29/0302:17PM by FAB_Devil

XyZspineZyX
11-29-2003, 06:01 PM
He must of had a Stingers under the wings

XyZspineZyX
11-29-2003, 06:42 PM
The German 13mm guns fired lighter bullets at slower velocity, so their damage potential was less, but the guns themselves were also much more compact and very light. The difference IMHO was not so much under most practical conditions. Higher energy bullets of same caliber would only make a cleaner hole under most conditions...

However keep in mind that damage varies _GREATLY_ according to the location of hit, for most of the time 13mms do nothing visible, but once I managed to finish off a P-51 with a short burst from them (I hit the engine at it burst into flames).

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XyZspineZyX
11-29-2003, 06:51 PM
weight of UB/Browning bullet is about 50g
MG131 - 35g
rate of fire /muzzle velocity is similar

kinetic energy = mv2/2 - the Ek effectivness of MG131 is roughly 70% of those above.

MG131s are much improved against old il-2



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XyZspineZyX
11-29-2003, 07:19 PM
The MG-131 was basically a light weight heavy machine gun. If offered big gains in performance when compared to the 7.92mm MG-17 with only a modest increase in weight. The MG-131 weighed 17kg while the MG-17 weighed 12kg.

Compare this to the difference in weight between their American counterparts: the M2 .50 cal weighed 29kg, while the .303 cal weighed 10kg.

Another useful feature of the MG-131 was it's relatively compact dimensions, allowing it to be mounted in the cowl positions of the Bf-109 and the Fw-190. In the 109 in particular space was extremely limited so a compact weapon was highly desirable.

In FB I think the MG-131's are fine /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

XyZspineZyX
11-30-2003, 05:39 AM
OK, maybe they are a LITTLE bit weak, but I remember downing two Hurricane IIB's with only a 1-2 second burst to the wing. The wing came off!

XyZspineZyX
11-30-2003, 07:28 AM
I'm just curious why Yak3 guns seem to be like Star Wars capital ship weapons. Yes the ammo supply is limited, but, it can make P-47s pop like balloons with very small bursts. Everything else just ceases to exist when hit by them.

They just seem a bit overboard. Other than that I think the Yak3 is a very nice and well done plane. (particularly when it's weargin white crosses. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif lol)

XyZspineZyX
11-30-2003, 07:46 AM
Because they're incredibly easier to aim with DDT. Smaller muzzle flashes and less vibration with all VVS planes.


Remember the pre-1.2RC1/2 P-47D .50 issues? The dispersion itself wasn't as much a problem as the plane being immensely difficult to aim with, due to the erratic behavior in vibration. I have serious doubts as to whether the .50s were increased in power with 1.2, but at least they are more stable to shoot with now.

The result is pretty much evident - a small burst will cripple most 109s or 190s. Even when the glass wings in 190s aren't hit, it's gonna cripple the plane in other ways. A P-51D or a P-47D in a no-icon game room, is a sheer terror. One high speed pass, and one LW plane goes down.

Now, pre-1.2RC1/2, the P-40s used the same .50s, but it seemed far more powerful. Why? That's because, if you had infinite ammo on, you can write your name by holding the trigger and futzing with the stick. It's that easy to aim with VVS planes. The plane's nose responds exactly to what the pilot inputs - not so with the LW planes or US planes(barring the VVS P-40 and P-39).

The side slip tendency and slightly jumy pitch of LW planes are well noted, and the USAAF planes, due to high speed flight, have a tendency to nose up during aim, which should be promptly compensated with trim. On the other hand, I don't think I ever felt I needed to use trimming in VVS planes in any occasion.






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XyZspineZyX
11-30-2003, 10:12 AM
Before you whine to Oleg, do a little research. Uninformed and unreasonable complaints have ruined the Ready Room; that's why he no longer even reads anything here. Take a look at these charts:

http://www.ww2guide.com/guns.shtml#heavym

As you can see, the Russian lasers of all calibres really are superior across the board, compared to their counterparts in any other air force. They tend to have high muzzle velocities and rates of fire, which increases accuracy and the number of subsequent rounds staying on target. This chart doesn't rate reliability, but Soviet guns had a reputation for low jam rates as well. The same could not be said for Hispano and Mk 108.

The MG 151/20 was probably the best German gun all around, and was preferred for its reliability. Since armament scarcity and spontaneous jams aren't a factor in FB, we see most LW planes flying with the Mk 108 when they can.

The MG 81 is also remarkable for its low weight. But look at the incredible ROF and velocity of ShKAS and UBK--no wonder they are so deadly in FB. In most cases the VVS guns we have are comparable or superior bullet mass, all in a very lightweight gun.

When comparing ammo lethality, bullet weight (in grams) is more significant than calibre.



Message Edited on 11/30/0308:38AM by xenios

XyZspineZyX
11-30-2003, 11:10 AM
Salute

Higher rates of fire for Soviet guns are not a factor unless they are firing through the prop center hub.

Anything mounted on the cowling will have its rate of fire reduced to allow for syncronization with the propellor.

The German 13mm weapon was inferior to the Soviet and American 12.7's.


RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
11-30-2003, 02:41 PM
i think this is modelled quit well as is - except for the fact that the LW guns should have better ammo. the soviets, british and americans did (usually) not use HE rounds - yes they used "fragmentation" rounds with very low HE content - and i fail to understand why the .50 has HE rounds .... to the best of my knowledge - they were not used ...although the US experimented with them in the pacific. the 20mm Hispano used AP rounds mostly and HE rounds were almost never used during the main battles of the war for that gun.

point is - the .50 has more energy then a MG131 .... but the MG131 fires a variety of ammo. (HE and HEI for example).

this is ecspecially true for the MG151/20. while Hispanos and Shvaks fire a heavier bullet with more muzzle energy - the MG151/20 fires MG, HE, HEI ... etc. - the german guns rely more on bullets with a large HE or HEI content - and not so much on kinetic energy.

"the one and only MIG1 whiner"

XyZspineZyX
11-30-2003, 04:06 PM
RAF74BuzzsawXO wrote:
- The German 13mm weapon was inferior to the Soviet
- and American 12.7's.

In terms out outright performance yes, but as I pointed out above, it was a very light weight and compact weapon when compared to the US equivalents (the UB guns weighed around 25 kg), so you would not expect it to match them in terms of ballistic performance.





"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

XyZspineZyX
11-30-2003, 04:38 PM
RAF74BuzzsawXO wrote:
- Salute
-
- Higher rates of fire for Soviet guns are not a
- factor unless they are firing through the prop
- center hub.
-
- Anything mounted on the cowling will have its rate
- of fire reduced to allow for syncronization with the
- propellor.

Er.. it is still a factor. The UBS still turns in
a very high rate of fire even though it is synchronised.
(About the same as an unsynchronised M2 .50, just to make
it explicit).

One of the advantages of the UBS is being mounted
on the main axis of the plane, meaning good concentration
of fire, less issues with firing outside convergence
range, and less sensitivity to relative roll.







Message Edited on 11/30/0303:53PM by AaronGT

XyZspineZyX
11-30-2003, 08:43 PM
S! All

Thanks xenios! That link is very useful! Forgive my ignorance!

Thanks johann_thor! If us consider the type of ammo, then the damage for the gun of 13mm of the Bfs may be incorrect! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

FAB_Devil.

XyZspineZyX
11-30-2003, 10:43 PM
The HE effect in small caliber weapon is rather unsignificant. Kinetic energy and incindary effect - thats counts. Up to 30mm caliber fragmentation shells do more damage then pure explosive. Even now there are almost no pure HE shells used in AA weapon - all of them could be considered rather as fragmentations shells.
Its notable what only Germans EVER used these thinwalled HE shells - and only in WW2. I dont think ppls forgot how to manufacture them immedeatly after WW2 and still didnt managed to recall it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


And last note: After russian tests:

The average hole from thinwalled 30mm MK108 shell- about 0.55 m2
The average hole from HE-fragmentation VYa 23mm shell - same 0.55 m2.

Allthought its worth to note what VYa had 1.5 higher muzzle velosity - but still it says quite much about effectivity of weapon.



Message Edited on 12/01/0310:21AM by Chromatorg