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Afromike1
01-19-2009, 07:54 PM
When you have an alt advantage of a minimum of 1k how do you begin your attack?

I know im doing something wrong cause I just dive after with 0% throttle and then quickly loose my advantage because I have too much of an altitude advantage.

Should I keep circling my target until I can get behind its 6'0clock?

Also how should I come down on the target? I usually have a lot of an altitude advantage and I just throttle down to 0% and slowly dive towards the enemy. But I loose a lot of altitude doing so, I just dont want to break up with massive speed.

JimmyBlonde
01-19-2009, 07:58 PM
Tactics in aerial combat are highly varied depending on certain factors.

What kind of aircraft are you flying?

What are you flying against?

Strart by adding those details and anything else you have observed and some of the guys here will be able to give you advice to suit your situation.

WTE_Galway
01-19-2009, 08:06 PM
If its a formation of bombers I tend to dive almost vertically from one side rather than the rear and then overshoot and pull up vertically to hit it again from directly below, if I have retained enough energy I will wingover and immelman back for a second vertical pass but if lacking E I climb for a few minutes before rinse and repeat.

If i somehow find myself coming up on the six of the target (through target fixation) I break away and climb to regain height and try again.

na85
01-19-2009, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by Afromike1:
When you have an alt advantage of a minimum of 1k how do you begin your attack?

I know im doing something wrong cause I just dive after with 0% throttle and then quickly loose my advantage because I have too much of an altitude advantage.

Should I keep circling my target until I can get behind its 6'0clock?

Also how should I come down on the target? I usually have a lot of an altitude advantage and I just throttle down to 0% and slowly dive towards the enemy. But I loose a lot of altitude doing so, I just dont want to break up with massive speed.

You're probably in an aircraft not well suited to high speed dives (like a 109).

In some aircraft after you make a guns pass and climb back up, you should take a few minutes and do a sustained climb to regain some energy, rather than immediately zooming back down.

Your bogey might get away, but if your marksmanship is good you should only need 1 pass.

JimmyBlonde
01-20-2009, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by na85:


You're probably in an aircraft not well suited to high speed dives (like a 109).



I would contest this, the 109 is much more suited to high speed dives than a lot of other aircraft in the game, if you use a gentle hand in the recovery process you should get on okay.

It is has become known, in hindsight, that the 109 was actually more capable, in terms of structural strength, than many of it's pilots believed at the time.

Personally, in game I have had no trouble recovering from dives at speeds around 700 kph by using trim and a very soft touch on the stick. Trying the same in something like a LaGG-3 seems to result in a high impact study of agricultural cultivation techniques...

PanzerAce
01-20-2009, 03:40 AM
Well, I generally only engage people who have tunnel vision from chasing someone else, and with diving into a melee there really isn't any proper strategy, just go for the best shot you have.

Bombers I try to make it so that I can dive with at most 30 degrees from the vertical, which allows me to a) keep my speed up, b) avoid most of the gunfire, c) give me a clean target of the cockpit and/or engines, and d) allows me to easily leave the engagement envelope of the bomber.

That being said, I tend not to attack people who are flying on their own and showing signs of having seen me, as the altitude advantage isn't actually what you might think then.

All this is on the so called air quake servers. On a full real server I'd probably go for anything I could see below or above me that I thought I could reasonably catch.

F19_Orheim
01-20-2009, 05:04 AM
Originally posted by JimmyBlonde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:


You're probably in an aircraft not well suited to high speed dives (like a 109).



I would contest this, the 109 is much more suited to high speed dives than a lot of other aircraft in the game... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1

Vertical is the 109's ace in the sleeve, and an excellent "diver"..

If I attack an enemy fighter from altitude in let's say a 109 (or any fighter), I first try to see if he has detected me.. I pass over him and position my self on his hi 6. If he starts to turn there is a great chance he has spotted me, if he goes straight probably not.. if he starts to climbs straight he is toast http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you 6 attack fails, just keep your advantage of speed/altitude and go for it again.. do NOT turn...just make sure he hasn't got friends in the neighbourhood higher or with more E than you...

I keep my gun convergence at 160 or lower, and when I close in on him at that range from behind, I use all I got.... and hopefully down him in one pass...

If he has spotted me, the best thing he can do is to turn towards me to close my angles and make the window of opportunity as short as possible..

practice http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and good luck

Feathered_IV
01-20-2009, 05:26 AM
Crash into them and hit Refly works for me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Fenice_1965
01-20-2009, 07:03 AM
Why 0% throttle ?
I usually dive with full power, trying to get as much speed as i can. It's quite tricky somettimes because you have a short window of time to shoot but bullets have higher impact and you conserve energy for the second pass (if needed).
I usually fly with 190 wich is ideal for high speed passes. With different airplanes maybe you need different tactics.

SeaFireLIV
01-20-2009, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:



I would contest this, the 109 is much more suited to high speed dives than a lot of other aircraft in the game...

+1

Vertical is the 109's ace in the sleeve, and an excellent "diver"..



Yep. As soon as a 109 starts vertically fighting me I know I`m facing someone who knows what he`s doing.

DuxCorvan
01-20-2009, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by Fenice_1965:
Why 0% throttle ?
I usually dive with full power, trying to get as much speed as i can.

In early P-38s and other planes with severe high speed issues, you must be very careful with that.

M_Gunz
01-20-2009, 08:06 AM
You can have too much of a height advantage, too much of a speed advantage.

If two planes turn with the same G's, the slower one will turn tighter. The closer you are behind, the more you have
to match or exceed his turn to get a leading shot. Answer is to shoot from farther back where you need to turn less
but that requires being a good shot and wasting some ammo.

If you can vs a fighter who hasn't seen you, dive lower, hit him on the way up and exit behind him.
On the merge for deflection, fly out towards a point ahead of your target that he should reach before you would and
shoot for when he and your shots will meet there. If you blow the pass, don't shoot at all as he may not see you
which lets you swing above (roll to keep him in view) and get a chance to hit from above.

Plan your exit along with your pass so you don't come out withing 90 degrees of his heading. The clean exit is worth
more than the rest, make sure your speed is greater and with any luck he or his mates will never see you.

The hardest part is learning to judge distances and speeds, you will make mistakes but never correct in such a way as
to compromise your exit.

x6BL_Brando
01-20-2009, 08:53 AM
It's a good idea to put yourself in the place of the fellow your about to drop on. His plane is an important consideration too. Bombers in formation know that their best hope is to stick where they are and hope that the massed defence of theirs and the others' gunners will deter you. Evasive manoeuvring is tricky anyway in a tight formation, due to the risk of collision, so the attacker really only needs to calculate the best point to attack from. This is still difficult because it's not as easy as it appears to be, timing one's descent to arrive in the sweet spot. It's all too easy to end up in the six o' clock position, getting your lights put out by a Betty's tail-gunner or the eagle-eyed marksman who inhabits the back seat of a 110 or a Stuka. My ideal is a slashing front-quarter attack - aiming principally at the cockpit and the wing-root area - followed by continuing the dive on through the formation. Not too far though, before making the appropriate move to get back on top. So my hypothetical attack on the bomber's right-front quarter might be followed by a quarter-roll to my right and a breaking turn at maximum throttle with boost which should put me back up on the bomber's left front-quarter. A nice theory anyway. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

In reality it will depend on whether the bomber(s) have an escort and whether they've followed me down. After the first pass everything hangs in the balance, and as in a chess-game, it's the ability to predict the next moves of the other player(s) that dictates your survival.

B

F19_Orheim
01-20-2009, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
You can have too much of a height advantage, too much of a speed advantage.

Great to see we all have difference strategies and views on this stuff... in my own humble opinion you cannot have too much of these... you just need to harbor the energy well enough.


If two planes turn with the same G's, the slower one will turn tighter. The closer you are behind, the more you have
to match or exceed his turn to get a leading shot.

true, but You really don't want turn in situations like these.


If you can vs a fighter who hasn't seen you, dive lower, hit him on the way up and exit behind him.

I know that a lot of guys use this technique. I don't care much for it UNLESS I have some really heavy duty weapons where ONE hit can bring him down. I want a kill in one pass and unless you have cannons, you need sustained fire to down your foe, and this technique's time window is too short.

One advantage though is that is safe for you, you never end up with the guy on your 6 where he might throw away a burst at random and actually damage you or worse.


Plan your exit along with your pass so you don't come out withing 90 degrees of his heading. The clean exit is worth
more than the rest, make sure your speed is greater and with any luck he or his mates will never see you.

+1

WTE_Galway
01-20-2009, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
You can have too much of a height advantage, too much of a speed advantage.


In my opinion, only if you are supposed to be protecting something that is way below you and moving slowly ( like an airbase http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Otherwise it gives you a strategic/operational advantage even if its tricky to exploit tactically. Given enough height and speed you can totally dominate when to engage and disengage and get to choose the altitude where the fight occurs. Against bombers it even lets you turn a tail chase into a head on assault,

M_Gunz
01-20-2009, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
You can have too much of a height advantage, too much of a speed advantage.

Great to see we all have difference strategies and views on this stuff... in my own humble opinion you cannot have too much of these... you just need to harbor the energy well enough.


If two planes turn with the same G's, the slower one will turn tighter. The closer you are behind, the more you have
to match or exceed his turn to get a leading shot.

true, but You really don't want turn in situations like these. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

EDIT: that's why I provided alternatives. I will turn up to 10-15 degrees.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you can vs a fighter who hasn't seen you, dive lower, hit him on the way up and exit behind him.

I know that a lot of guys use this technique. I don't care much for it UNLESS I have some really heavy duty weapons where ONE hit can bring him down. I want a kill in one pass and unless you have cannons, you need sustained fire to down your foe, and this technique's time window is too short. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well you can't have the super-speed of a 3000m dive and a lot of time sitting behind as well. Hartmann would go for very short
fire situations and not hang around regardless of results. I find that cripple or kill on one pass is possible but I start on
the trigger from much farther away, ranging shot no closer than 300m, half second later and maybe small correction I am inside
250m easily for 1 full second or less before time to avoid ramming and veer off for exit. 1000m to 1500m is plenty of height
advantage when you have speed as well just to close while still on high. 360kph speed advantage closes at 100m/sec, if you
approach from a bit to the side or he is turning already then closure is much more than just your speed minus his.
But where besides coming from below are you going to be off to the side and behind and still not easy to see?

I read from Hartmann that he would approach oblique to a point off the wing of the target then turn in at close range and fire.
I've managed it in sims when I was younger but it's a reflex/timing action to say the least, no time to aim just turn and fire
while keep turning or you smash into bits. I've tried to adapt from that, fire from farther out ahead of the target (AI never
sees the pipper locked on itself, maybe why it's worked so well!) and roll out before 100m close.

Last thing I want to do in a faster, less well turning plane is to get anywhere near co-speed just to try and hang close behind
a better turner and try to blaze away. AI or hearing you or warned by mates, he may never give me the shot and I'd be flat
foot stuck against something that can probably out-accelerate me at that speed as well. All I could do is roll over and split
and hope it's enough.

What I miss is my old wingmate from the RB3 days. One would hit and the other would finish if necessary. Lone Wulf sucks
compared to teamwork as far as results. Two together is worth four apart. I wonder how many loners online even know how many
times they have fallen to teams?

zxwings
01-20-2009, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Afromike1:
I know im doing something wrong cause I just dive after with 0% throttle and then quickly loose my advantage because I have too much of an altitude advantage.

Also how should I come down on the target? I usually have a lot of an altitude advantage and I just throttle down to 0% and slowly dive towards the enemy. But I loose a lot of altitude doing so, I just dont want to break up with massive speed.
It is impossible, after a high speed dive and an ensuing climb, to come up to the same altitude with the same speed as before the dive, no matter how much throttle is applied. So losing some energy after each dive attack is normal - but making your opponent (who has spotted your comming down) lose a lot of energy by forcing him to turn hard, is also normalhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . Anyway, the more your can keep your energy (by NOT throttling down), the better.

If in the dive your aircraft is not shaking, or will not shake, due to massive speed (which is a warning of the danger of breaking up your plane), generally there is no need to reduce your power, but of course there are often other things to make it necessary to throttle back. One example I can think of immediately:

In the case of the BF109, a very high speed makes the aircraft extremely difficult to maneuver, almost like a brick, so you may not be able to point your guns at the target (with lead) due to an extremely high speed - almost certainly so if he is turning hard. That is when you want to throttle down for manoeuvrability.

In an FW190, however, there is no need to throttle down so often, or so much, as in a 109, becuas the FW190 is far more manoeuvrable at high speeds than the 109.

F19_Orheim
01-21-2009, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
...AI never sees the pipper locked on itself...

...AI or hearing you or warned by mates...

That's one reason alone why our "tacics" apply differently, other than "style (tactics are of course general, but style is equally important). I very rarely encounter AIs as I fly on full switch dogfight servers (such as Warbirds of Prey servers) exclusively. Attacking AI is quite a different ballgame, and you get to know how they work (not saying it's easier .. those weird minus G spirals are reall difficult to attack on and they go on for ever....).

Also tactics are to be changed as well flying online with icons off or on.... flying high WITH icons on tends to let you be spotted easier, ergo less opportunity to take the foes by surprise.

Manu-6S
01-21-2009, 03:10 AM
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
...AI never sees the pipper locked on itself...

...AI or hearing you or warned by mates...

That's one reason alone why our "tacics" apply differently, other than "style (tactics are of course general, but style is equally important). I very rarely encounter AIs as I fly on full switch dogfight servers (such as Warbirds of Prey servers) exclusively. Attacking AI is quite a different ballgame, and you get to know how they work (not saying it's easier .. those weird minus G spirals are reall difficult to attack on and they go on for ever....).

Also tactics are to be changed as well flying online with icons off or on.... flying high WITH icons on tends to let you be spotted easier, ergo less opportunity to take the foes by surprise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anyway because of one of the greater IL2's flaws, the engine's sound radar, most simple tactics like approaching the enemy from his blind spot can be used.

So high wingloaded planes like P51s and FW190s can't do efficient track shots, if not always at very high speed.

I really don't know is the pilot could even listen at the gunfire of this enemy at 6 o'clock. Only in Sakai's accounts I've read something like this: but Zeros had a very light frame (Brown says this too, beautiful plane but too much noise inside the cockpit).

Instead usually the pilots could ralize to be in danger only then they got hitted. And often they didn' know that that sound on the frame was caused by the enemy shells. ("My plane does strange sound...").

You can even work in team 2-1 (for example 2 FW190 against a SpitIX) and work in DnB, but your teammate (when you are the chased one) must be aware to not approach so much because the guy in the spit will listen to you and will go in a tight turn: in that case you can only go with snap shot anticipating his turn.

This is the rason that late 109s in this came are IMO quite useless since the patch 4.07 (or the former, can't remember) and people who use them like 20mm more than the 30mm.

EDIT: I always talk about full difficulty servers

M_Gunz
01-21-2009, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
...AI never sees the pipper locked on itself...

...AI or hearing you or warned by mates...

That's one reason alone why our "tacics" apply differently, other than "style (tactics are of course general, but style is equally important). I very rarely encounter AIs as I fly on full switch dogfight servers (such as Warbirds of Prey servers) exclusively. Attacking AI is quite a different ballgame, and you get to know how they work (not saying it's easier .. those weird minus G spirals are reall difficult to attack on and they go on for ever....).

Also tactics are to be changed as well flying online with icons off or on.... flying high WITH icons on tends to let you be spotted easier, ergo less opportunity to take the foes by surprise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I flew online with limited icons back at the start before different problems intervened and I used the same tactics then and
before even IL2 online as well. I learned from different sources including some former pros.

I've done the saddle-up game as well but energy fighting with fleeting contact at deflection and long gunnery is I think more fun.

F19_Orheim
01-21-2009, 05:08 AM
ah but if we talk fun, I prefer equal energy, scissors, evasives, turns, high/low yoyos and a lot of adrenalin http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif