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XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 04:14 PM
I've been doing a good deal of online flying since I got my ADSL two weeks ago, and I'm loving it, but although I can put up a fight against some players, I tend not to last very long in a dogfight. And here's my puzzle: pilots in the same kind of plane as me out-turn me again and again! How can I improve this? If I try to turn harder, there's the thin line of spin/not spin, and if I slow down to get a sharper curve, I'm toast once they outmanouver me. What's the trick here? I realize you might not want to tell me this, 'cause I'm a potential enemy, but if there's somebody out there who would like to help me out, I'd be much obliged.

Yours truly:

Fanden

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 04:14 PM
I've been doing a good deal of online flying since I got my ADSL two weeks ago, and I'm loving it, but although I can put up a fight against some players, I tend not to last very long in a dogfight. And here's my puzzle: pilots in the same kind of plane as me out-turn me again and again! How can I improve this? If I try to turn harder, there's the thin line of spin/not spin, and if I slow down to get a sharper curve, I'm toast once they outmanouver me. What's the trick here? I realize you might not want to tell me this, 'cause I'm a potential enemy, but if there's somebody out there who would like to help me out, I'd be much obliged.

Yours truly:

Fanden

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 04:16 PM
Only thing I can think of is try using flaps to improve your turn rate.

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 04:20 PM
Lower throttle, trim and flaps if you need to turn really tight.

Boom and zoom works alot better then turn fighting but sometimes you need that extra turn to get the bogey http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 04:53 PM
It's kind of hard to explain with words. Also, I don't think I've seen many sites with sufficient visual material to explain these stuff adeqautely - most usually, it depends on the pilot to get a lot of experience and 'learn how things work out'... sort of like sex education. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


For one thing, a sharper turn cannot be attained. A limit is a limit, and once the plane reaches it, a sharper turn is impossible. Only stalls await. But yes, some pilots do seem to maneuver their planes like it had no limit in its maneuverability. So what is the trick here?

The trick is quick thinking in the 3-dimensional maneuvering. Essentially a flat turn is a 2D maneuver. To out maneuver a plane with better turning capability in a bad turning plane, it requires the pilot to plot his course depending on how "where the enemy will arrive", rather than "where he is moving now". This means you have to visualize in your head what the outcome of enemy maneuver will be, instead of just reacting to what he is doing now.


......

An elementary, but very effective maneuver which just might help the pilot advance to the next level, is the High Yoyo. I think a diagram of this maneuver is also portrayed in the IL-2/FB PDF manual on the CD. I really recommend first you see the picture depicting this maneuver.

Imagine you are in a Bf109G-14, the enemy is a La-5FN. You are behind him in a hot pursuit. Seeing you closing in, the La-5FN starts to break to its left, a hard break turn which the G-14 cannot follow into a lead turn.

What do you do? As the enemy breaks left, you follow his turn, but not right behind him. Instead, you initiate a climbing turn with about 45 degrees bank to the left. As the La-5FN continues its left turn, you roll 90 degrees more, and continue the turn, downwards this time. This, will bring you right behind him again. This, is the High Yoyo.

So, what happened in this High Yoyo?

First, it can be said that it is a sort of a "detour". Instead of trying to lead turn into a plane that turns better than you, you turn upwards first, then point downwards and come down hard towards the direction of the enemy. Since you have a larger turn radius, effectively, you travelled more distance than the enemy, but still managed to get behind his 6. If this maneuver was done on the same dimensional plane as the one the La-5FN is turning, you would be out-turned. But in the High Yoyo, you travelled through a different dimensional plane, by utilizing the 3D characteristic of air combat maneuvering.

Second, in the first step of the High Yoyo, your climbing turn decreases your speed far more drastically than the La-5FN which is turning in a flat 2D plane. This is because no matter how hard the La-5FN pulls his turn, he is limited by his maximum AoA. He can't dump his speed faster than you. But your G-14, initiated a climbing turn - which cuts down the speed. In this state, where a plane is low in speed but starting to nose down, you can change the direction of travel at your will by utilizing the roll, rather than using the elevator. (ie. When a plane is heading downwardsdiving, a 180 roll will change direction instantenously, whereas if you used the elevators to turn your direction, it'd take more time).

Thus, as the La-5FN is turning flat, you do a climb turn, then roll your plane so it points directly to the estimated point of arrival when the La-5FN continues the turn, and then you head for there! So in a sense, it is a detour, but also a shortcut(!).

Third, the better part of this maneuver is, as the La-5FN continues his turn, he constantly loses speed and energy. But your G-14, loses E during the first part of the maneuver, but regains E by the time the maneuver is completed(!!).

So what happened, is while the La-5FN blows all his E doing a tight break turn, the High Yoyo will enable your G-14 to keep up the chase, and still save your E, thus, putting you in a more advantageous situation.

It is a combination of utilizing 3D dimensions, rolls and E-management.


.......

Now, this High Yoyo, is like the very first step of applying this principle in many various ways. The many maneuvers may look different, but in principle it is the same - clever estimation, utilization of air space, wise E management and rolls. An effective use of these characteristics enables a bad turning plane, to stick behind a good turner like glue.

..

Another quick and simple maneuver using this principle is the 'lead roll'. Try this one yourself:

You are chasing a plane, and he attempts to go into scissors. He rolls left, turns hard left, he rolls right, and turns right. If you try to follow a better maneuvering plane, in a worse plane in the exact same method, you will quickly lose your status and be pressed to defend.

What do you do?

He rolls left, turns hard left.
You roll left, follow his turn.
He rolls right, and turns right.
You do not roll right.
Instead, you keep rolling to the left so the plane rolls 180, and ultimately changes directions to the right.

That, is the method known as 'lead roll'. Every time the enemy rolls and changes directions, the lead roll will put you in a situation where you have a lead on the enemy plane, and give you a shooting opportunity.

The lead roll, is also an example of changing directions and headings via usage of rolls and airspace, instead of just honestly pulling the stick and working those elevators.







-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 04:56 PM
Do a snap turn. Hold rudder over while you bank the direction you want to go.

-----------------------------------
Uh no sig

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 06:01 PM
Excellent kweassa!

So many times I've tried to look out for a guide or such where would be explained what to do it which situation.
There's tons of pages which describe all those Immelmans, barrel rolls, scissors and whatnot, but never is discussed what you have to do when you're i.e. defensive in situation A or B, or offensive in A or B and target X is doing manouver F or G to counter, or whatever.

Excellent reply kweassa! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Now you just have to write a couple dozen more of those... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 06:09 PM
Good post kweassa! However you left out one thing: corner speed. Simply put there is a speed for each A/C that allows it to turn the sharpest. Any slower and your E bleed will prevent a sharp turn, any faster and you'll widen the turn W/ excessive E. Again the vertical element can be used to solve either problem.

Too Slow: Start a diving turn (or low yo-yo) once you've gained corner speed then tighten it up.

Too Fast: Same thing inversely: Do a climbing turn (or high yo-yo) until you bleed to corner speed and then tighten it up.


<center> http://www.4yourfuture.net/handshake.gif


"Altitude, speed, maneuver, fire!"-The "formula of Terror" of Aleksandr Pokryshkin, Three times awarded the rank of Hero of the Soviet Union

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 06:16 PM
Thanks kweassa for taking the time and effort to write that detailed explanation. Very good job.
I hope you won't be flying a La-5FN. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
I am in the process of working on high yoyo manuevers. You described it so I can visualize it WHILE implimenting the necessary control inputs.
Again, thanx for the detailed effort.
knightflyte

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 06:53 PM
kweassa wrote:
-
- It's kind of hard to explain with words. Also, I
- don't think I've seen many sites with sufficient
- visual material to explain these stuff adeqautely -
- most usually, it depends on the pilot to get a lot
- of experience and 'learn how things work out'...
- sort of like sex education. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
-
-
-
- For one thing, a sharper turn cannot be attained. A
- limit is a limit, and once the plane reaches it, a
- sharper turn is impossible. Only stalls await. But
- yes, some pilots do seem to maneuver their planes
- like it had no limit in its maneuverability. So what
- is the trick here?
-
-
- The trick is quick thinking in the 3-dimensional
- maneuvering. Essentially a flat turn is a 2D
- maneuver. To out maneuver a plane with better
- turning capability in a bad turning plane, it
- requires the pilot to plot his course depending on
- how "where the enemy will arrive", rather
- than "where he is moving now". This means you
- have to visualize in your head what the outcome of
- enemy maneuver will be, instead of just reacting to
- what he is doing now.
-
-
-
- ......
-
-
- An elementary, but very effective maneuver which
- just might help the pilot advance to the next level,
- is the High Yoyo. I think a diagram of this maneuver
- is also portrayed in the IL-2/FB PDF manual on the
- CD. I really recommend first you see the picture
- depicting this maneuver.
-
-
- Imagine you are in a Bf109G-14, the enemy is a
- La-5FN. You are behind him in a hot pursuit. Seeing
- you closing in, the La-5FN starts to break to its
- left, a hard break turn which the G-14 cannot follow
- into a lead turn.
-
-
- What do you do? As the enemy breaks left, you
- follow his turn, but not right behind him. Instead,
- you initiate a climbing turn with about 45 degrees
- bank to the left. As the La-5FN continues its left
- turn, you roll 90 degrees more, and continue the
- turn, downwards this time. This, will bring you
- right behind him again. This, is the High Yoyo.
-
-
- So, what happened in this High Yoyo?
-
-
- First, it can be said that it is a sort of a
- "detour". Instead of trying to lead turn into a
- plane that turns better than you, you turn upwards
- first, then point downwards and come down hard
- towards the direction of the enemy. Since you have a
- larger turn radius, effectively, you travelled more
- distance than the enemy, but still managed to get
- behind his 6. If this maneuver was done on the same
- dimensional plane as the one the La-5FN is turning,
- you would be out-turned. But in the High Yoyo, you
- travelled through a different dimensional plane, by
- utilizing the 3D characteristic of air combat
- maneuvering.
-
-
- Second, in the first step of the High Yoyo, your
- climbing turn decreases your speed far more
- drastically than the La-5FN which is turning in a
- flat 2D plane. This is because no matter how hard
- the La-5FN pulls his turn, he is limited by his
- maximum AoA. He can't dump his speed faster than
- you. But your G-14, initiated a climbing turn -
- which cuts down the speed. In this state, where a
- plane is low in speed but starting to nose down, you
- can change the direction of travel at your will by
- utilizing the roll, rather than using the elevator.
- (ie. When a plane is heading downwardsdiving, a 180
- roll will change direction instantenously, whereas
- if you used the elevators to turn your direction,
- it'd take more time).
-
-
- Thus, as the La-5FN is turning flat, you do a climb
- turn, then roll your plane so it points directly
- to the estimated point of arrival when the
- La-5FN continues the turn, and then you head for
- there! So in a sense, it is a detour, but also a
- shortcut(!).
-
-
- Third, the better part of this maneuver is, as the
- La-5FN continues his turn, he constantly loses speed
- and energy. But your G-14, loses E during the first
- part of the maneuver, but regains E by the time the
- maneuver is completed(!!).
-
-
- So what happened, is while the La-5FN blows all his
- E doing a tight break turn, the High Yoyo will
- enable your G-14 to keep up the chase, and still
- save your E, thus, putting you in a more
- advantageous situation.
-
-
- It is a combination of utilizing 3D dimensions,
- rolls and E-management.
-
-
-
-
- .......
-
-
- Now, this High Yoyo, is like the very first step of
- applying this principle in many various ways. The
- many maneuvers may look different, but in principle
- it is the same - clever estimation, utilization of
- air space, wise E management and rolls. An effective
- use of these characteristics enables a bad turning
- plane, to stick behind a good turner like glue.
-
-
- ..
-
-
- Another quick and simple maneuver using this
- principle is the 'lead roll'. Try this one yourself:
-
-
- You are chasing a plane, and he attempts to go into
- scissors. He rolls left, turns hard left, he rolls
- right, and turns right. If you try to follow a
- better maneuvering plane, in a worse plane in the
- exact same method, you will quickly lose your status
- and be pressed to defend.
-
-
- What do you do?
-
-
- He rolls left, turns hard left.
-
- You roll left, follow his turn.
-
- He rolls right, and turns right.
-
- You do not roll right.
-
- Instead, you keep rolling to the left so the
- plane rolls 180, and ultimately changes directions
- to the right.
-
-
- That, is the method known as 'lead roll'. Every
- time the enemy rolls and changes directions, the
- lead roll will put you in a situation where you have
- a lead on the enemy plane, and give you a shooting
- opportunity.
-
-
- The lead roll, is also an example of changing
- directions and headings via usage of rolls and
- airspace, instead of just honestly pulling the stick
- and working those elevators.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
- Good post.


Only thing to add is use your throttle and combat flaps and rudder in these ACM to give you alittle more manuverablity when near stall. Either at the top of the Hi yoyo's or when topping out on a loop to bring the plane over quicker and extend flaps slowly to give you more control at the top of these ACM's. Don't throttle up quickly either cause torque and prop wash sometimes will cause a stall. Let the plane float down alittle until stall is not a concern anymore. Accelerated stalls are a different story.

Using flaps in FB does give you more lift. but it also cause you to lose Energy. So use them sparingly. only at tops of loops yoyo or near stalls,or when you want that little extra to lift in a turn to come around on a opponent.
If you let yourself get caught in a situation that your both in a stall fight then you've done something wrong.
They [stall fights] are fun but you given your opponent an oppertunity to kill you. Stay Fast manage your E. and Extend if need be before you giving your opponent that oppertunity.