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View Full Version : P51 & Ki84 real world performance.



XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 02:40 AM
In anticipation of the coming release of the P51 and Ki84 I have been doing a lot of reading about these aircraft relative to one another. And in almost every thing I have seen it is said that below 20,000 ft. the Ki84 has the advantage. Yet, when looking at the performance figures for the P51 in AHT this doesn't seem to be the case.

I am not posting from home, so I do not have the stats here, but the Ki84 top speed is always between 385 and 398mph @ optimum altitude (20.000ft, if memory serves correctly) Yet the P51D can exceed 400mph from 10,000ft onwards...

What am I missing here?

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
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"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 02:40 AM
In anticipation of the coming release of the P51 and Ki84 I have been doing a lot of reading about these aircraft relative to one another. And in almost every thing I have seen it is said that below 20,000 ft. the Ki84 has the advantage. Yet, when looking at the performance figures for the P51 in AHT this doesn't seem to be the case.

I am not posting from home, so I do not have the stats here, but the Ki84 top speed is always between 385 and 398mph @ optimum altitude (20.000ft, if memory serves correctly) Yet the P51D can exceed 400mph from 10,000ft onwards...

What am I missing here?

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 02:49 AM
You're not missing anything. Stay fast and refuse to get into a slow speed turning fight and you should do just fine.

Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 03:01 AM
Not so much a question about tactics SkyChimp, I understand the strengths of both aircraft. Just wondering about the reputation the Ki84 has gotten. When it was mechanically sound it was apparently quite a good aircraft. Anyway, looking forward to the addition of Pacific theater aircraft. Hope we get the Wildcat soon....

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 03:03 AM
At first, P-51 was design with main focus is to be able fly well in high alt and longer range as Military asked them to focus on certain requires. Second,, How was Ki-84 was created with idea is Military want Ki-43 and Ki-44 into one plane with all performance what both Ki-43 and Ki-44 had. Ki-43's main performace is superior maneuverablity and KI-44's performance is speed and superior climb as pure interceptor. Result, you will know what's in Ki-84 for.

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 03:03 AM
~S!

Your speed on the Pony at 10k looks high. The TAS max'd out at 437 MPH clean at around 30k. I'm not at home either so don't have the exact altitude) You can recalc the airspeed for the lower altitudes less than the optimal.





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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 03:21 AM
bump

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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 03:46 AM
also the tests your looking at are most likely full gross weights can you show the statistics here please, I bet the p51d is full weight is with droptanks, 120 lb tanks with 2000 extra gallons of fuel.



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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 03:54 AM
The P-51D hits 400 mph at just under 10,000 feet.

I think the Ki-84 was a fantastic fighter, but it wasn't really in the same class as the P-51D IMO. I think that it got its reputation not so much from being an unbeatable enemy, but rather because it was just so much better than the previous Ki-43 and Ki-44.

I mean when you fight Ki-43s and Ki-44 in P-38s, P-47s and P-51s then suddenly encounter the Ki-84, it was probably a shock. A shock in that it was was just way ahead of those former fighters in all-around performance.



Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 04:30 AM
The Mustang was good at high altitude because of the wing design (very thin). It was fairly advanced for its time in terms of aerodynamics so it was a bit of a boost to the fighter.

Another fighter was also fitted with the wing, one that was not effective at high altitude. That was the Hawker Typhoon. Redesigned and renamed the Tempest with a similarly designed wing, the Tempest was both effective at low and high altitude...with most of the changes to the plane being in the wing design.

Another example is the FW190A's which were decent at altitude and excellent on the deck.

Now all these planes are not the same, but I think its fair to say that the Mustangs performance at low altitude was very good and its high altitude was matched by only a few.

It, like most of the German planes were tuned for high altitude performance...we will probably see similar tactics for Luftwaffe fighters as we will for most USAAF fighters as well.

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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 05:12 AM
P-51 used laminar flow airfoil. Off the top of my head I can recall the P-63 did also as well as the Japanese Raiden..I'm sure there are a few others as well.

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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 05:34 AM
Sure Pony can go so fast but your body can't. Do you get my meaning? I will tell you what I mean later.

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 04:01 PM
VW-IceFire wrote:


- Another example is the FW190A's which were decent at
- altitude and excellent on the deck.


The A-series Fockes were among the best multi-role fighters of WWII from the deck up to about 7,000m.

Above that altitude, history shows that they remained excellent at bouncing unsuspecting fighters or taking down heavy bombers, but not dogfighting.



IMO, what makes the Mustang a great fighter is not it's engine or it's guns. It's the aerodynamic shape of the P-51 that gives it a high top speed and good energy retention in the vertical. Just don't yank and bank it around and don't get slow.


Anyway, Oleg has said he may switch from the 109 to the Ki-84 Frank in on-line fights.

I think the Ki-84 is going to dominate unexperienced or impatient pilots, regardless of what they are flying. I can't wait to fly the thing personally /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 04:23 PM
I think the Ki84 will be a very dangerous opponent.




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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 04:48 PM
I can see it now...the Ki-84 the P-51 and the La-7 will all be considered by some groups to be Uber (even when I can probaly flame all three with a D-9 anyways) when infact they are a bit tougher than it may seem.

Not to start another debate on any of them but as far as I can tell all of the so called uber planes have their misgivings...frankly I hate the La-7 now that I've learned on some other planes. I can't wait to put myself upto the challenge against these new planes...I expect them all to be different mounts to be sure and good opponents when flown well.

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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 05:16 PM
Thank you all for your very civil and thought out responses. Regardless of thier relative performance, the new additions to FB are a very welcome shot in the arm for what is still the best prop sim ever.

The only question is, when?




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</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 05:25 PM
No wonder Oleg said he will probably fly Ki-84 online...
Personally I find that airplane very beautiful and quite deadly

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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 05:56 PM
From memory; the 2 aircraft were fairly well matched in terms of speed, with the P51 having an edge of 10-20 mph depending upon altitude [and fuel of course]. The P51 can out climb and zoom climb, but at slower speeds - down to under 200mph IAS - the Ki84 can roll with and outturn the Mustang [especially with a bit of flap]. Also at that speed the Mustan will have difficulty climbing out of a fight without getting nabbed.

This holds true for the 1.2 beta: don't get low and slow with the Ki84 but keep speed up and BnZ, and the Frank will have trouble getting into a firing position.

XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 06:19 PM
I can't wait for the additions.

Although I'll probably be a Lightning pilot when it comes.

The mustang will be awesome, as the P-39 and the P-47 are the only really competitive US fighters as of now, P-40 is a 1941, and dated, and P-47 requires great patience and skill to fly, P-39 is nice, but . . . its no Mustang or Lightning.

I have moved my planes of choice to the ones that are a bit tougher to fly . . . the 9K and others, and now I find the La-7 and 5FN to be too . . . normal. The two are good at everything, but there is always nearly every other plane has at least one advantage: 109's can outclimb it, 190's can outrun it, smaller planes can out-turn it, 9K can outgun it, and what have you . . .

I like my plane to have one thing that it excells at, even if other aspects are mediocre: Yak-9K: biggest gun. TB-3: unsinkable. etc.etc.

XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 07:20 PM
While top speed is a good thing, it isn't the only thing. Although American pilots were constantly drilled to keep their speed up, if the intended (Japanese) victim saw them coming, his automatic reflex reaction was to turn hard, which required the attacker to either abort the bounce or counter maneauver to keep his guns on target.

This was why American pilots in China weren't too enamored of the early P-51A & B Mustangs they initially received in the summer of '44. The wing flex/ammo feed problem reared its ugly head in this theater much more so than in the ETO, where the German reflex was to dive away from trouble, playing into the American fighters' hands. Add to this complication the Frank's superior maneaverability even at the higher speeds favored by the Americans, and life got complicated for the former Flying Tigers.

The Frank had a much higher top speed than most of the Imperial Japanese inventory,while maintaining the traditional maneauverability so beloved of the Japanese fighter pilots. It gave their pilots a great deal of confidence and a hope, not only of survival, but of winning their individual battles. The Frank's greater punch, accelleration, and ruggedness put it in the same class as the opposition, something the Japanese really hadn't experienced since the heady days of late 1942.

Conversely, American fighter pilots had to deal with a quantom leap in their opponents' capability, not unlike the British pilots who manhandled the Italians in North Africa until JG 27 showed up. The Americans, however, maintained the advantages of numbers, superior training, and discipline, which kept the fight even enough that the usual factors decided the fight.

Incidentally, postwar tests of Ki-84s using high-octane avgas not available the Japanese showed a comparable top speed to the Mustang, although the engines tended to burn out much more quickly. That works out to a performance about 10% higher than the figures ElAurens quoted.

The fly in the ointment was the chancy proposition of getting an airplane that had been put together properly at that point of the war, Japanese quality control being less than optimal (a lesson they seem to have now learned). In FB, I don't expect that to be a factor for the Frank any more than it was for early Soviet fighters.



"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" - LCOL Don Blakeslee, CO, 4th FG, March, 1944

XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 07:32 PM
In the 1.2 beta the Ki-84 and P-51 are a very good match. The P-51D-5NT and Ki-84-Ia are dead even in speed and acceleration at low level. The Ki-84 does have a small low speed agility advantage. However the P-51 leaves it sucking exhaust fumes above 4000m. Dispite this, an alert Ki-84 pilot can easily spoil any attacks by the P-51. End result is usually a stale mate if both pilots know what they are doing. In my oppinion, the Ki-84 and P-51 will be added to the uber plane list. The P-39's loose their spot in the uber plane list do to the addition of gravity to their flight model. But they are still very competative.

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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 07:54 PM
Mustang against 190 servers are also extremely interesting!

I made the past few days some of the most interesting dogfights I ever did with FB or Il-2 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 08:03 PM
Mix with fast speed and turn are bad for your body. I mean you will get blackout easy. Try use diving speed superior will only cause redout as try catch plane below in same time try pull nose hard to bring gunsight to emeny plane will lead to blackout. I had strong feel many of you play don't use realistic setting. (Blackout and Redout)

WereSnowleopard wrote:
- Sure Pony can go so fast but your body can't. Do you
- get my meaning? I will tell you what I mean later.
-
- Regards
- SnowLeopard
-



Regards
SnowLeopard