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coturnix
01-09-2009, 11:26 AM
It´s amazing what there is still buried in the ground.
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV2QQi_J
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV2QQn_0
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV2QQAsJ
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV2QQFs0
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV2QQFs0
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV2QQHX9
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2MnQ50
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2MnSA9
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV2QRaSS

strider1
01-09-2009, 11:32 AM
Wow! Amazing stuff. Lokks like valuable barter goods in late-war times, if not personal treasure.

Do you know the location of the find, any other background, I.D. for the owner?

coturnix
01-09-2009, 12:00 PM
All I know is that it was dug by russians somewhere near Finlands border.

Choctaw111
01-09-2009, 12:36 PM
That is incredible. I would certainly like to have as much info about this as possible. Is there a story behind it?

coturnix
01-09-2009, 12:38 PM
I will ask the guy who gave me the link to those photos.

Uufflakke
01-09-2009, 02:03 PM
Intriguing pix.
The bottles of rum have a label with German text: Jamaica Rum Verschnitt (= Jamaica Rum blend) and those two boxes of cigars are typically Dutch brands Ritmeester (= captain of the cavalry) and Karel I (= Charles I).

Would like to know more about these images.

DxyFlyr
01-09-2009, 02:23 PM
Shoulder board looks like a medical officer.

wheelsup_cavu
01-09-2009, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Choctaw111:
That is incredible. I would certainly like to have as much info about this as possible. Is there a story behind it?
http://mission4today.com/images/smiles/ditto.gif

Wheelsup

ysydor201988
01-09-2009, 04:03 PM
i don't know but those bottles are soo clean is that possible to remain intact for 60 cc years(i don't know when they found the box) if it's true wow great discory..

i must say that me to back in Romania with my cousin went into a ww1 field and in the trences we had found very much stuff i don't have any foto but this year i will go again and i will post them here..

M_Gunz
01-09-2009, 04:29 PM
You just gotta hope that the thing you find isn't unexploded ordnance. There's been a lot of that happen even without digging.

Bo_Nidle
01-10-2009, 07:10 AM
The condition of the items is incredible! I have a friend who is very knowledgeable about the German Armed Forces of WW2 to the present day. I sent the pictures to him to look at in an effort to identify the rank/unit. Here's what Dave replied:

"That is absolutely amazing. You are correct in what you, say the shoulder epaulets are edged in cornflower blue which is medical corps or Sanitätsdienst each arm of the army had it's own colour which is still true today and with little change, Cornflower blue is still medical plus the international medical insignia between the rank pips. The rank is Hauptmann or Captain two pips. The silver wire round the top of the cap is also a give away to him being an officer, plus the embroidered national colour cockade. This was an early pattern uniform so it was possibly kept for best walking out uniform and buried so the enemy didn't get it, along with the cigars and alcohol. It has certainly kept well."

I had ventured to him that the winged serpent insignia appeared to be a medical emblem. I have since found that the Mercury winged staff is "Special Services" (supply officer?)and have found an identical set identify the rank as "Truppensonderdienst Hauptmann" ( I know that it's a Captain but "Truppensonderdienst" I have no idea, "Truppen"=Troop?) on the extreme right below.
http://www.relichunter.com/luftoffboards.jpg

I still cannot believe the fantastic condition of the find. It looks as if it was buried yesterday!

Heliopause
01-10-2009, 09:01 AM
sonderdienst, I guess special or extra unit.

ysydor201988
01-10-2009, 09:06 AM
Like i've said up i can't wait to return in Romania there is a hill full of trences from ww1 German-Romanian and on that hill nobody goes so from ww1 the objects there had never removed i found there a german uniform..knife with the german symbol remainings of munition and weapons i don't have photos but as soon i will make the photos i will post them somewere
the hill is very dangereous because munition are still there in 80 years 15 people were killed by the exploding of the shels they were tryng to sell the iron but they were on a bunker that exlodedhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif i wanted to ask someone here there some device that tells(that maybe has experince)what precautions i must take? at the moment of the founding of the uniforme i was at the begging of the trences i din't gotfurther..thanks

ysydor201988
01-10-2009, 09:11 AM
hmm that sort of plastiv that are covering the bottles (i don't know if is plastic) i think it's a sort of a very tin paper any comments??

voidcracker
01-10-2009, 11:56 AM
Very cool!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Uufflakke
01-10-2009, 01:18 PM
Found some other pictures of the same excavation of this locker in Königsberg/Kaliningrad:

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Uufflakke/dig01.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Uufflakke/dig02.jpg

Here is the link where I found the pix:

http://www.detektorweb.cz/inde...12876&mm=3&xb=1&vd=1 (http://www.detektorweb.cz/index.4me?s=show&lang=1&i=12876&mm=3&xb=1&vd=1)

The more I think about it the less I trust it.
And I am not the only one. I won't be surprised if it is a setup:

http://ww2chat.com/forums/barr...pandoraskis-box.html (http://ww2chat.com/forums/barracks/1432-pandoraskis-box.html)

http://www.lefouilleur.com/for...6364.html?highlight= (http://www.lefouilleur.com/forum/pas-ouvert-depuis-60-ans-vp326364.html?highlight=)

EDIT: and some more non believers:

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/...d-koenigsberg-2.html (http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/battlefield-archeology/575-zahlmeisters-box-found-koenigsberg-2.html)

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.co...wthread.php?t=262176 (http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262176)

ysydor201988
01-10-2009, 01:39 PM
i don't know you guys but i think this is all set up because:
1.the clothes i must say that were put in so that it seems very old but they are clean!were is water?i don't think that water can't enter in that box..
2Even the paper in time without air it's damaging but on those documents that ive saw they are clea i don't know but if it is real i must say that is the most well preserved object in the world it seems buried yestarday!!!

Xiolablu3
01-10-2009, 01:48 PM
If it is real then I would bet that its some guy trying to hide his Whermacht roots from the RUssians and blend in as a civilian.

It does look a bit too new and not worn enough however.

Tully__
01-10-2009, 06:41 PM
Never mind the condition of the contents, the condition of the outside of the box is too good for 60 years in the ground even in a fairly dry climate. They were able to use the lift handles on the end of the box, in my experience they would either be rusted away or at least seized in the down position by rust. Similarly, the hinges and catches were still functional and apparently in good condition. For this to occur, the box must have been in perfect condition and absolutely smothered in grease or oil before burial (which doesn't appear to be the case) or it would have to have been a type of soil that has virtually no oxygen in it (think peat bog) and this also does not appear to be the case. The soil appears to be a fairly open sandy soil which would allow both good air and good water penetration.

I further note that the box lid seal appears to be rubber and in perfect condition. Rubber of WW2 vintage generally deteriorates fairly rapidly, though this would have been protected from heat extremes and UV radiation so it's a little hard to tell.

VonKlugermon
01-10-2009, 06:55 PM
Sniff, sniff, sniff - I smell a rat! This has hoax written all over it! (A minor miracle if not)

Two things come to mind when thinking about actual finds:

1) P-38, "Glacier Girl", All parts there, even pilot's helmet, guns in working condition - they fired the 20mm once it was on the surface!
2)B-24 "Lady Be Good" Except for the fact that it crash-landed itself, very well preserved. Of the initial parties to explore the wreck, one person accidently/purposely squeezed a gunner's trigger and touched off a few rounds from one of the turret machine guns!

These are examples of extreme conditions, (ice/desert) though there are others - lake bottoms and other oxygen-free environments.

Along with other reasons given above, it doesn't look that way in these photos!

Perhaps I'll eat crow, but I say fake!

Willy

Bo_Nidle
01-10-2009, 07:53 PM
further to my last post my friend has been in touch again with an update:

"My apologies I have had a further and closer look at those pictures. What I took to be the medical insignia wasn't. It is Special duty troops or truppensonderdeinst that badge is not dissimilar from the medical and blue was used for the backing cloth of both branches. Special duty is anything from transport through paymaster it has quite a wide range of jobs. Like any other military the German army was fluid and things changed all the time Then as now nothing went unchanged The Hauptmann rank is correct for the time. Hauptmann in the Bundeswehr now has three pips and I am still amazed at the find
Dave"

I hope it isn't a hoax, but after further thought I have to agree the condition of the items is a little too good to be true.

TX-Gunslinger
01-10-2009, 08:24 PM
The cigars alone are a dead giveaway. If you've ever handled ancient tobacco - you know that it either disintegrates or turns tarry with sufficent humidity.

All of the rest of the items follow suite, and to top it off, the document conditions make one wonder how many months or weeks had passed since burial.

I wonder why people try stuff like this - probably just trying to make a living but without the good and common sense to deeply study what things look like when they are buried for almost 70 years in a temperate climate.

Notice that the "box" is buried in very porous, sandy soil.

S~

Gunny

ysydor201988
01-11-2009, 02:28 AM
One friend of mine said to me that if you look careffuly the whole from here they are bringing up the box u can see clearly that are signs of shovel hiting the ground during the excavation,and even roots from plants that are broken..i mean if was burryed one day before i think there wasn't need to hit the ground to leave those signs or roots don't grow in a day!and i can see those tres in the back i thik there were over the whole....but things don't match look at the glasses(those glases had the comander of the tank for protection over the turret)but look too modern and if this guy was a medic why glases??why alcool??sigars??i mean the things don't match at all!

Po-cat
01-11-2009, 10:51 AM
I would like some local opinion on if the Finnish border is temperate - I thought at least some of it was in the Arctic circle.

Are those cigars and spirits still available in those brands? Nice inkjet work otherwise ;o)

Don't get me wrong...I'm naturally a bit skeptical; dig any hole in the ground and tree roots will get cut ;o)

It does all look a little too good to be true, but time will tell!

ysydor201988
01-11-2009, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Po-cat:
I would like some local opinion on if the Finnish border is temperate - I thought at least some of it was in the Arctic circle.

Are those cigars and spirits still available in those brands? Nice inkjet work otherwise ;o)

Don't get me wrong...I'm naturally a bit skeptical; dig any hole in the ground and tree roots will get cut ;o)

It does all look a little too good to be true, but time will tell!

you didn't understanded me i know the roots are broking but there were signs of shovel hiting the ground so they weren't just cleaning up the ground..

eindecker
01-11-2009, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by ysydor201988:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Po-cat:
I would like some local opinion on if the Finnish border is temperate - I thought at least some of it was in the Arctic circle.

Are those cigars and spirits still available in those brands? Nice inkjet work otherwise ;o)

Don't get me wrong...I'm naturally a bit skeptical; dig any hole in the ground and tree roots will get cut ;o)

It does all look a little too good to be true, but time will tell!

you didn't understanded me i know the roots are broking but there were signs of shovel hiting the ground so they weren't just cleaning up the ground.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would have to be a well crafted hoax. I agree with Tully except that
the items are obviously in a very cold climate. The first US Antarctica station
is a good example of how extreme cold protects even perishable items.
A hundred years later the food stored there is quite edible. Glacier Girl and Ki Bird
are good examples of how the cold preserves things. In the case of the ill fated Ki Bird
recovery project, the team was able to start two of the original engines on the
remaining fuel. Although the engines were damaged and not airworthy the cold had stopped
the corrosion and breakdown of the fuel.
I think the stash box is no hoax. It was hidden and lost in time by the death or capture
of it's owner. Note that the rubber seal in the box is in good shape but the corrosion
has started to compromise it (the seal). Try and duplicate that for such a hoax.

for your information, please moderators, this is not advertising.

Ritmeester Cigars
P.O. Box 1208
5200 BG 's-Hertogenbosch
The Netherlands

Peperstraat 3-5
5211 KM 's-Hertogenbosch
The Netherlands
E-mail: info@ritmeester.com
Phone: +31 (0)73 - 68 68 888
Fax: +31 (0)73 - 68 68 811

Karel I Cigars are a long extinct brand that went under in the 1960's.
That would be a challenge to duplicate. Their heyday was in the late 1800s through 1940.
The boxes and cigar labels place them in pre WWII Holland.
In my mind this makes the stash box a nearly un reproducable original.

Eindecker

T_O_A_D
01-11-2009, 06:11 PM
Very interesting, to say the least.

notice the mold/mildew growth on the clothing, some moisture has managed to get in, to cause that, correct? Or were some of the item possibly damp when packed away?

Amazing a steel box could survive in that soil.

Looking to see more on this find.

zardozid
01-11-2009, 06:26 PM
I have not read the whole thread (so excuse me if I'm stepping on any toes here) but this smells really "funny" to me (lol)...I think that its a fake. The only natural conditions that could preserve organic materials (tobacco, cloth, ect) for 60 odd years is found in the arctic. The tobacco would have molded long ago (at the very least)...


[edit] LOL!!! I just looked at the first few pictures again...its soooo fake! In the picture it looks like the box is less then a meter below the ground. Thats not even below the perma-frost. The box is not airtight and moisture would have leaked into it long ago, and many, many times over by now...the contents of that foot locker would not have looked that good after five years let alone 60.

Not only that but the pictures are composed to tell a story... Who in their right mind would have taken so many carefully composed photos (as if telling a story) on an unknown box that they "just happened to stumble apon". I smell a bluff...the pictures are too good.

major_setback
01-11-2009, 07:01 PM
A couple of questions cross my mind.

Even if it is a fake then presumably all the articles contained in the box would have to come from someone's private collection, or a private museum. If so: would the contents be seen to be worth more if they had been 'discovered' buried than if kept well preserved in a museum?

It seems from reading other posts in this thread that the authenticity of the find hangs on whether the rubber seal/ metal casing can be expected to remain in good condition after being buried for 60 years.
Is there any other way in which the authenticity of the find could be judged?

zardozid
01-11-2009, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by major_setback:
A couple of questions cross my mind.

Even if it is a fake then presumably all the articles contained in the box would have to come from someone's private collection, or a private museum. If so: would the contents be seen to be worth more if they had been 'discovered' buried than if kept well preserved in a museum?

It seems from reading other posts in this thread that the authenticity of the find hangs on whether the rubber seal/ metal casing can be expected to remain in good condition after being buried for 60 years.
Is there any other way in which the authenticity of the find could be judged?

The web site that the pictures are posted on (just happens) to sell metal detectors and other treasure hunting equipment...one other thing strikes me as "funny", in not one photo do you see anyone's face. It must have taken a lot of work to keep everyone's face out of frame.

Their is NO proof in any of those photos that the "find" is authentic...all of those photo's could have been "staged". People who believe its real, want to believe its real...they are not looking at the facts.


Look at it like a psychology experiment...

I remember a thread topic here that said something like "coastal bunker unearthed...contents of bunker in good condition" (or something close to that). Almost everyone here expected the bunker to be in near perfect condition with chairs and tables, phones on the wall and papers in stacks. And when people where confronted with photos that showed the actual condition of the bunker (a muddy-mucky mess) almost everyone was disappointed and a few people where actually angry over the "misleading title"...

How "good" should something look after sitting in the ground for 60 years?

Po-cat
01-12-2009, 01:16 AM
These diggers always seem reluctant to show their faces - I can speculate, but there must be a variety of reasons.

If I was faking something, I'd pick something more valuable than cigars http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

It looks like all the artifacts are correct for the preiod; having read up a bit more, it seems that the rum hasn't been available since 1948...

A handkerchief shows the crest from a mansion close by - masterful deception, or just 'what it is'?
put me down as 'tentatively believeing, but always open to compelling evidence either way' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hookecho
01-13-2009, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Bo_Nidle:
The condition of the items is incredible! I have a friend who is very knowledgeable about the German Armed Forces of WW2 to the present day. I sent the pictures to him to look at in an effort to identify the rank/unit. Here's what Dave replied:

"That is absolutely amazing. You are correct in what you, say the shoulder epaulets are edged in cornflower blue which is medical corps or Sanitätsdienst each arm of the army had it's own colour which is still true today and with little change, Cornflower blue is still medical plus the international medical insignia between the rank pips. The rank is Hauptmann or Captain two pips. The silver wire round the top of the cap is also a give away to him being an officer, plus the embroidered national colour cockade. This was an early pattern uniform so it was possibly kept for best walking out uniform and buried so the enemy didn't get it, along with the cigars and alcohol. It has certainly kept well."

I had ventured to him that the winged serpent insignia appeared to be a medical emblem. I have since found that the Mercury winged staff is "Special Services" (supply officer?)and have found an identical set identify the rank as "Truppensonderdienst Hauptmann" ( I know that it's a Captain but "Truppensonderdienst" I have no idea, "Truppen"=Troop?) on the extreme right below.
http://www.relichunter.com/luftoffboards.jpg

I still cannot believe the fantastic condition of the find. It looks as if it was buried yesterday!

Bo.........is that velcro on the back of the red set in the middle bottom picture? Wasnt Velco developed on the late 50's early 60's?

mortoma
01-13-2009, 11:56 AM
The fact that there is no accompanying story and the other things already mentioned by other posters suggests a fake to me. If it were real there'd be at least two pages of texts to tell the story.

Col.BBQ
01-13-2009, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Hookecho:
Bo.........is that velcro on the back of the red set in the middle bottom picture? Wasnt Velco developed on the late 50's early 60's?

Its not velcro, just a pad to keep the red cloth off the uniform. A red stain on a green-gray uniform is a vivid contrast.

Hookecho
01-13-2009, 03:51 PM
Hmmmm...it sure looks like hook side of velcro to me...I use the stuff enough

MB_Avro_UK
01-13-2009, 04:10 PM
Hi all,

This 'find' has been discussed elsewhere and there are doubts.

Why would anyone bury this?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

SeaFireLIV
01-13-2009, 04:46 PM
Kinda sad to start at the beginning of this thread with all the `wows` to come to it here with all the `lows`.

It did look pretty impressive and it seems reasonable to assume it was hidden to avoid enemy eyes or for other similar matters.

However, the kit does look in incredibly good condition for something just in a metal box in the ground for 60 odd years. But i`m no expert, stranger things have happened. Look at bodies hundreds of years (even a thousand or so) old found almost perfectly preserved in peat bogs. Sometimes, different soils do different things to some objects.

Surely those (identification?) documents could be traced to find out what happened to the man or the unit?

Be interesting to learn more.

Tully__
01-14-2009, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by Hookecho:
Hmmmm...it sure looks like hook side of velcro to me...I use the stuff enough
Nah, it's a type of canvas/twill backing tape commonly used as stiffener/strengthener in collars, cuffs, waistbands etc before artificial fibres became widely used. It only looks like Velcro because of the course weave.

Po-cat
01-14-2009, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Kinda sad to start at the beginning of this thread with all the `wows` to come to it here with all the `lows`.

It did look pretty impressive and it seems reasonable to assume it was hidden to avoid enemy eyes or for other similar matters.

However, the kit does look in incredibly good condition for something just in a metal box in the ground for 60 odd years. But i`m no expert, stranger things have happened. Look at bodies hundreds of years (even a thousand or so) old found almost perfectly preserved in peat bogs. Sometimes, different soils do different things to some objects.

Surely those (identification?) documents could be traced to find out what happened to the man or the unit?

Be interesting to learn more.

Agreed, Seems a recurring theme!

I ended up subscribing to some of the forums listed in the earlier post (thanks, Uufflakke http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif ), mainly to see what the hoaxers got wrong, and what the issues were.

Apparently the man doesn't feature in any MIA lists, so either didn't exist, or survived the war.

Sorry - still can't agree with any of the 'reasons' why it's a hoax.
Granted, we'd only see what we're supposed to see, so can't really prove it isn't either http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

What would all that stuff be worth? It'd have to be enough to compensate for One Supreme Achievement - not like the Hitler Diaries, or the British Secret Service plot to kill Hitler (printed in 1944 by Epson/Hewlett Packard http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif )

None of the things look particularly valuable to me - no SS Daggers, autographed Eva Braun postcards, etc.

eindecker
01-14-2009, 07:06 PM
Look at the unlikeliness of making the hoax.
You need two boxes of cigars in original early 1940 boxes
and wrappers in good condition. One brand has been extinct for 30+ years.
You need long extinct rum bottles. You also need the uniforms
and documents with the proper period markings and, note on the post card, the
proper political remarks.
The cigars, boxes and labels make the case for me.
The only question is was it buried there, or is this a diversion
to disguise it's real origins.

Eindecker

K_Freddie
01-14-2009, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Bo_Nidle:
.. ( I know that it's a Captain but "Truppensonderdienst" I have no idea, "Truppen"=Troop?) on the extreme right below.

"Sonderdienst" - Afrikaans translation = "Without service" ===> Most likely English translation = "Non-Combatant"
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

jannaspookie
01-15-2009, 04:31 AM
"Sonderdienst" would translate to something like "special service" if I'm not mistaken.

DuxCorvan
01-15-2009, 01:29 PM
The items may be authentic, but the finding looks not. Maybe an intent to sell something or simulate another origin. Or maybe they've found it, but someone (why?) has buried it there very recently.

Because the state of tobacco, wood and papers are a giveaway. Paper gets yellow and fragile and ink starts paper acidification even in very well cared enviroments. Earth is terrible for paper, and 1940's inks are very destructive.

That has been in a very dry, cold and shady cabinet till very recently, and I wonder why someone would stage all this.

And if it's not staged, take Disney's head out of the fridge and bury it there right now.

Po-cat
01-15-2009, 01:42 PM
Hoax or not - bury that head http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

MB_Avro_UK
01-15-2009, 05:29 PM
Hi all,

The items found were worth small change in WW2.

Why go to all the trouble to put them in a sealed box and bury them deep in the ground?

Maybe these guys put some genuine stuff into a box and pretended that they had dug it up?

Gold or diamonds may have been worthwhile.

But uniform clothing, alcohol and cigars?

I suspect a scam.


Best Regards,
MB_Avro.