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M4Sherman4
09-23-2007, 02:41 PM
Me and alot of people think the .50 cal is unfarly under powered.

berg417448
09-23-2007, 02:44 PM
I thought 50 caliber is 12.7 mm?

MEGILE
09-23-2007, 02:50 PM
We have a winner!

JG4_Helofly
09-23-2007, 02:55 PM
IMO it's not under powered, but the damage caused by the 50 cal in game is unrealistic. I would expect more kills due to fire. To compensate this, there are effects like huge speed penalty for some planes after some hits in the wing and very often controle cables are cut. So the lack of fire is compansated by other forms of damage.

Schwarz.13
09-23-2007, 02:55 PM
P.S a .50 cal translates to 14.5mm

Actually it is 12.7mm

Watch this:

Choppin' (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-2537671134226307336)

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bremspropeller
09-23-2007, 02:59 PM
Yep, it's underpowered.

A single P-51 cut the Yamato in half with a three second burst.

Manu-6S
09-23-2007, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
IMO it's not under powered, but the damage caused by the 50 cal in game is unrealistic. I would expect more kills due to fire. To compensate this, there are effects like huge speed penalty for some planes after some hits in the wing and very often controle cables are cut. So the lack of fire is compansated by other forms of damage.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Add that for P51 and P47 there is no dispersion, so you have to hit at the right convergence to make max damage...

R_Target
09-23-2007, 03:02 PM
Hitting power is good, especially at convergence. Incendiary effects are weak or non-existent.

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2007, 03:05 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif From my days as quality control, I can speak without fear of contradiction that the internet is a wonderful thing:

http://www.sosmath.com/tables/sae/sae.html

Also, my calipers have this great button that converts from metric to SAE...and 12.7mm always translates to .5 inches http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But then again, since the metric system has a built-in fudge factor because they miscalculated, it's just as arbitrary as a king's thumb...it's just easier to divide by 10, even though I can divide by 12, too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

For fun, look up the actual length of a meter translated into other values, over the years. The way of measuring a meter has changed many times...this stuff fascinates me

http://www.sizes.com/units/meter.htm

They just re-define a meter with a different formula, every time they need more accuracy...but at the same time, a meter is always one meter http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

But anyway, take it from me, 1/2", 0.5", and one-half inch all equal 12.7 mm

AKA_TAGERT
09-23-2007, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by M4Sherman4:
is the .50 cal alittle under powered
translated to read "my aim sucks"

FritzGryphon
09-23-2007, 03:12 PM
M2s can kill Tigers in IL-2, but it's just not enough for todays advanced noob.

joeap
09-23-2007, 03:56 PM
P.S a .50 cal translates to 14.5mm

...is wrong. Savvy?



OMG why am I posting Tagertisms tonight?

DKoor
09-23-2007, 04:35 PM
Another proof that power is overrated on so many levels.

bmoffa
09-23-2007, 04:45 PM
I really don't give a &^&*, but that video's a hoot! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Copperhead311th
09-23-2007, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Schwarz.13:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">P.S a .50 cal translates to 14.5mm

Actually it is 12.7mm

Watch this:

Choppin' (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-2537671134226307336)

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hMMM YA KNOW...WHAT I FIND RATHER ....SHALL WE SAYS...INTERESTING IS THAT none OF THE TARGETS IN THIS APEAR TO BE FW-190'S. hmmmmmmmm

puzzleing isnt it?

Mysticpuma2003
09-23-2007, 05:23 PM
oh god, get the popcorn...here goes another .50 cal thread http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Waldo.Pepper
09-23-2007, 05:26 PM
hMMM YA KNOW...WHAT I FIND RATHER ....SHALL WE SAYS...INTERESTING IS THAT none OF THE TARGETS IN THIS APEAR TO BE FW-190'S. hmmmmmmmm

All the single engined targets are 190d's.

VW-IceFire
09-23-2007, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by Mysticpuma2003:
oh god, get the popcorn...here goes another .50 cal thread http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
15 pages for sure!

Key words for solving the .50cal problem: pilots...set you convergence and aim accordingly. Good luck!

Copperhead311th
09-23-2007, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Mysticpuma2003:
oh god, get the popcorn...here goes another .50 cal thread http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
which shall be followed by:

the My 190 windscreen is porked thread
the you is wrong! No .50's ever killed a Tiger tank thread (despite the proof other wise)
i can't out turn a Sopwith Camle in my BF-109 super human clown wagon thread. please fix it Oleg
and of lets not forget the gem of Gems...the "i hate americans, & american planes, and they are al fat and lazy and stupid. we're from Europe so we're better than you, Oleg please make a sim with no American planes thread.

Bearcat99
09-23-2007, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by R_Target:
Hitting power is good, especially at convergence. Incendiary effects are weak or non-existent.

My take as well.. but the hitting power on the 50s is good.. depending on the plane and the convergence settings. I have heard to the contrary but it seems to me that API rounds are not modelled in the 50 cals. I have managed to set 109s on fire with 2 seciond bursts in a P-51B. Offline of course.. You cannot gauge true gun performance online IMO.

Viper2005_
09-23-2007, 07:30 PM
The most interesting thing about the .50 is that the round actually has a diameter >0.5" until it's fired...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/50_bmg_12.7x99.PNG

Which perhaps gives some idea as to the magnitude of the forces involved!

Korolov1986
09-23-2007, 07:44 PM
So the proper meaning is .51cal, not .50cal?

Cool.

VW-IceFire
09-23-2007, 08:01 PM
I wonder what the Russian language IL-2 forums complain about?

R_Target
09-23-2007, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I wonder what the Russian language IL-2 forums complain about?

About how OM has sold out to the imperialists and nerfed all the Soviet planes.

BfHeFwMe
09-23-2007, 08:14 PM
The film is porked. I'd like to see a different target than the B-17. Even the lightest pop guns will instant burn a B-17 if you keep hitting it in that same wing spot. It's called a damage modeling bug, and the B-17 has it bad. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Gibbage1
09-23-2007, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
The film is porked. I'd like to see a different target than the B-17. Even the lightest pop guns will instant burn a B-17 if you keep hitting it in that same wing spot. It's called a damage modeling bug, and the B-17 has it bad. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Ya. A G4 is a LOT harder to light then the B-17. Only in Oleg's world.

na85
09-24-2007, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by joeap:

OMG why am I posting Tagertisms tonight?

where IS tagert, these days? Haven't seen anyone calling anyone else Nancy Boy in a while, now.

na85
09-24-2007, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by M4Sherman4:
Me and alot of people think the .50 cal is unfarly under powered.

It's not. I was playing today and sawed somebody's wing clean off in my p51. If you think it's underpowered, learn to fire at convergence.

It also helps to come in from the target's 5- or 7-oclock, instead of dead six. This lets you aim for the engine cowling or the canopy, usually resulting in pk's or engine damage. Usually takes them down quicker than perforating their wings.

Manu-6S
09-24-2007, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
which shall be followed by:

the My 190 windscreen is porked thread
the you is wrong! No .50's ever killed a Tiger tank thread (despite the proof other wise)
i can't out turn a Sopwith Camle in my BF-109 super human clown wagon thread. please fix it Oleg and of lets not forget the gem of Gems...the "i hate americans, & american planes, and they are al fat and lazy and stupid. we're from Europe so we're better than you, Oleg please make a sim with no American planes thread.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Friendly_flyer
09-24-2007, 01:03 AM
We had a round of testing about a year ago, using the manned gun turrets to get a more precise result. It's actually possible to saw the wing of a B-25 with a 3-4 second burst from a single .50 in-game. This is probably not realistic at all, but shows that the hitting power of the .50 in-game is not weak. Setting things on fire was very hard, the .303 Brit, 7,92 Mosin-Nagant and 7,92 rounds all set things ablaze with relatively few shots, while the .50 seem to have very little incendiary power. In tests the guns usually ran out of ammo before a fire broke out when the aim was concentrated on fuel tanks, not engines. A sort of conclusion was reached: The destructive capability of the .50 in-game is good, perhaps too good, but its ability to set things ablaze is vastly undermodelled.

Xiolablu3
09-24-2007, 02:08 AM
Color guncams are the best source for us ourselves who can never actually be there. We can see the effect the 6 guns are having on the enemy plane and there is no 'cherry picking' of explosive clips.


Study the few color US 50 cal guncams and compare with the game.

Imagine how good a source a first person cam would be from WW2 or Medeival battles. We have that at our very disposal for the .50 cals effect on WW2 planes. We just need to make sure that we are not 'cherry picking' dramatic clips.

We can make sure of this by only using the very few colour guncams that exist, which have been saved for their 'color' and not for their explosive effect.



The .50's already set Japanese planes alight very easily dont they? Or am I confusing it with .303?? German planes would not light up that easy.

The .50's IMO SHOULD be a little underpowered. After all thats why every other country moved on to cannons. If .50's did the job just fine then there was no point in using/switching to cannons. The US were only using .50's because their 20mm cannon was unreliable.

Manu-6S
09-24-2007, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The .50's already set Japanese planes alight very easily dont they? Or am I confusing it with .303?? German planes would not light up that easy.

Agree with all you said, but you are confusing with .303; firing with .50 Japanese planes lose easily wings but rarely they flame.

carguy_
09-24-2007, 02:47 AM
I get many half-kills when I fly 50cal planes, usually up to 4 in one mission.That trranslates only into two per mission, since people like to steal my kills.

Against big planes it`s a different story but I`d say the fifties are easily 2nd best after Soviet UB gun.

JG53Frankyboy
09-24-2007, 03:09 AM
Browning .50
// APIT - AP - HE - AP

APIT
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.002

AP
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0

HE
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.00148

lot of players "want" more API.
to compare
Browning .303
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API

API/APIT
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0.0018

AP
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0

that thing can set planes in fire (Hurricane Mk.IIb http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

carguy_
09-24-2007, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
the My 190 windscreen is porked thread
the you is wrong! No .50's ever killed a Tiger tank thread (despite the proof other wise)
i can't out turn a Sopwith Camle in my BF-109 super human clown wagon thread. please fix it Oleg
and of lets not forget the gem of Gems...the "i hate americans, & american planes, and they are al fat and lazy and stupid. we're from Europe so we're better than you, Oleg please make a sim with no American planes thread.


DUDE are you for real??! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

JimmyBlonde
09-24-2007, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
IMO it's not under powered, but the damage caused by the 50 cal in game is unrealistic. I would expect more kills due to fire.


Riiiiight???

WN_Barbarossa
09-24-2007, 06:07 AM
There is a "TRUE 50 cal/porked 50 cal" switch in the difficulty settings.

It's called Realistic Gunnery On/Off. Try it, you will like it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Blutarski2004
09-24-2007, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
Browning .50
// APIT - AP - HE - AP

APIT
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.002

AP
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0

HE
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.00148

lot of players "want" more API.



..... I've never seen any historical mention of a 50cal HE round for the M2/M3 HMG. Anyone have any RL data on that?

I do know that API was issued to 8FC from January 1944. This can be inferred from expended ammunition data contained in pilot after-action reports.

Monguse
09-24-2007, 07:10 AM
I have made every attempt to copy the pictures into my web site as not to directly link from the sources. All web sites are accredited. The only thing I have done is gather the information.


Weights and Measures
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/50_ammo.html

WORLD WAR 2 FIGHTER ARMAMENT EFFECTIVENESS
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm


Some pics


http://www.warwingsart.com/historia/50Cal/Types_01.jpg

http://www.warwingsart.com/historia/50Cal/Types_02.jpg

http://www.warwingsart.com/historia/50Cal/Types_02.jpg

Where these pictures came from
http://www.liberatorcrew.com/15_Gunnery/09_ammo.htm


Now my friend 310th_Diablo posts the following (books and ISBN numbers follow)

A book sample:

Wolf, William. American Fighter-Bombers in World War II: USAAF Jabos in the MTO and ETO. Atglen, PA: Schiffer Publishing Ltd, 2003
ISBN 0-7643-1878-0
391 pages

http://stonebooks.com/archives/031123.shtml


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In December 1944 the Ordnance Section of the 12th Air Force. using 57"' Fighter Group fighter-bombers, conducted a study of attacks on a static Italian steam locomotive. Strafing damage was found to stall a locomotive and cause repairs ranging from one to 35 days, and that strafing was much more likely to achieve hits than bombing or rockets. It was suggested that strafing using a .50 belting of four armor piercing incendiary (API) rounds to one tracer was ideal (as opposed to the previous API-lncendiary-APl-Incendiary-Tracer belting). Strafing from 90-degree beam was suggested over an attack from a shallower angle, as these perpendicular strikes were more likely to perforate the locomotive's boiler and less likely to ricochet.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, basically there wasn't a problem with killing aircraft with the .50 caliber because the U.S. was able to mass produce specialized Incendiary and Armor Piercing Incendiary .50 cal ammo for use in it's aircraft. Only in the Korean war because of the high altitude nature of the aircraft, and the jet engine and fuel used was the only limiting factor that caused the .50cal to go out of favor. It was more than adequate during WW2 though as can be seen in the examples above.
------------------------------------------------

Browning .50
// APIT - AP - HE - AP

APIT
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.002

AP
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0

HE
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.00148

With API ammo the 50's will actually have more power and stopping ability too.

-----------------------------------------------

more

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From http://www.vought.com/heritage/special/html/symilitary.html, recounted by Marine Corps crew chief Bud Yinger:

"Other crews were kept busy belting ammunition. Belting the 50-caliber ammunition had to be arranged so that the rounds were in order-- tracer, armor piercing, incendiary."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From http://www.cannon-lexington.com/Pages/Bob%20Capps.htm, recounted by CV-16 crew chief Lowell R. Capps:

"Our next learning adventure was how to belt 50 cal. ammo. There were four of us that sat around this belting machine that had a tray. One of us would put an armor piercing shell in the tray, another an incendiary and the other a tracer."

------------------------------------------------

more...LOL

AlmightyTallest Posted Sat February 26 2005 12:03 Hide Post
Okay, just found one of my books that gives a standard aircraft belted ratio for the Corsair.

From: "Corsair The F4U in WW2 and Korea"
by: Barrett Tillman

Page 20-21

"most aviation .50cal ammo was belted in the ratio of AP-I-AP-I-Tracer"

So at any rate since the .50cal ammo belt used in PF goes for all .50cal guns, I think if the HE load is incorrect the HE round should be replaced by either an Incendiary, or if you want to cover all bases, an Armor Piercing Incendiary round.



Here is the rest of the thread here at the Zoo: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/1771003335/p/13


Now for some pictures:

Now here is the picture of Schmatzy 57th FG 64th FS 'Black Scorpions' #53 SN 4420866 (shown 420 866)
Register: http://perso.orange.fr/p-47.database/Database/44-xxxxx.htm

http://www.warwingsart.com/historia/50Cal/57thFG_Armorer_Main11.jpg

The armorer loading a nice belt of 4 API and one tracer that backs up my friend Diablos post.
Now, compare the belting here with the paragraph above and the accompanying pictures.

Notice the light colored tips on those rounds?

Here is Grabesky's aircraft in color (same from above)
http://www.warwingsart.com/historia/50Cal/MustangAmmo2.jpg

Now here is a report from the 359th FG (Green Nosed) 16 August 1944
http://www.warwingsart.com/historia/50Cal/359-cranfill-16aug44.jpg
Note J: 776 Rounds API

Now all we have to do is to make sure we all know the true History, what we have in the sim is incorrect.

As you can see, if we had the historical belting in IL2 we should only press the trigger (provided you aimed correctly) for 1 to 2 seconds and not the current game implementation of using the entire belt to bring down an enemy.


If we don't protect our history, no one will.

JG53Frankyboy
09-24-2007, 07:12 AM
well, another question would propably bee if a HE is making the gun weaker or stronger in the game calculation/programmed DM ...........

Cajun76
09-24-2007, 07:14 AM
I have a book called Wings of Gold about the US naval aviators of WWII.

..... oh good, I found it and don't have to type it out.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

"The pilot from VP-44 who picked up the landing force was Ensign Jack Reid. In letters to Gordon Prange after the war, Reid reported that he and his crew had awakened at 0300 on the morning of June 3. (1942) After a breakfast of bacon, eggs, toast, and coffee and a briefing for the twenty-two-plane (PBY) reconnaissance mission that stressed the possibility of an invasion of Midway, Reid took off for the daily twelve-hour surveillance. Some six hours out of Midway, as he prepared to turn in to the dogleg route that would bring him back to Midway, Reid acceded to requests from Cheif Radioman Francis Musser and Navigator Ensign Robert Swan to extend the flight another ten minutes. The crewmen, apparently, were not thinking in terms of finding the Japanese ships so much as hoping for an encounter with an enemy plane. They had borrowed from the Army Air Corps some new explosive bullets that the B-17 gunners swore would destroy anything they hit."

"Wings of Gold" Chapter 5, pg. 85, by Gerold Astor

They found the task force just as they turned for home, but the amazing thing to me is that they wanted to find another plane, to try out the new rounds.

As you know, .50 cal mounts are standard defensive armament for both the B-17 and PBY.

Manu-6S
09-24-2007, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
They found the task force just as they turned for home, but the amazing thing to me is that they wanted to find another plane, to try out the new rounds.

Don't know how much they should be curious if that WANTED plane had mk108s under its wings.

Brain32
09-24-2007, 08:16 AM
Wow Copperhead must be psyhic, he knew I will post in this thread, however I did not want to write about the ME109 as that plane in this game for me is a complete write off, you win, history re-written sucessfully, congratulations. But the report I have to comment contains a 109 so, I'm forced to mention that POS.


Originally posted by Mongouse:
Now here is a report from the 359th FG (Green Nosed) 16 August 1944
Interesting report, but let's actually read it:
First of all it was a ME109 that is in-game about as "tough" as A6M2 and what does it say:
"I opened fire at about 20-30 degrees deflection" - note that it wasn't dead six as it's most often in game and usual way of 50cal whiners
"...and got good hits on left wing and other parts of the plane. The enemy aircraft straightend out, coolant coming out of port radiator and then made a couple of sloppy turns, while I hit him again." - WOW it wasn't cut in half with both halfs on fire like in-game http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif I bet the pilot complained his 50's were undermoedelled.
"The enemy aircraft then did two lazy wing overs apparently out of control..." - OMG it still didn't explode, the pilot had to be pi$$ed.
"AMMUNITION EXPENDED - 776 rounds API" - assuming 10% accuracy that's 77 hits, in game ME-109 would explode 4-6 times with all those hits at good deflection http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Now let's get to FockeWulf, last plane (barely)standing in whining wars defeated Luftwaffe. This ALLIED report mentions results on various ammunitions fired on FW190 from dead astern, once again, the most common attack approach you can see online.
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff140/_Brain32/190vunerabilityAdj.jpg
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff140/_Brain32/190vunerability2adj.jpg

As you can see, be happy FW190's damage model, isn't realistic in-game http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Now all we have to do is to make sure we all know the true History, not some developer's fabrication of their truth.
Or when we don't like true history, we can always fabricate one that suits us better.

JG4_Helofly
09-24-2007, 08:30 AM
What about doing some tests and shoot at a 190 from directly behind? I am sure the result will be different.

Manu-6S
09-24-2007, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
What about doing some tests and shoot at a 190 from directly behind? I am sure the result will be different.

Which control will be damaged? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

No, PK is better.

JG4_Helofly
09-24-2007, 09:00 AM
aileron of course http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

TheBandit_76
09-24-2007, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Color guncams are the best source for us ourselves who can never actually be there. We can see the effect the 6 guns are having on the enemy plane and there is no 'cherry picking' of explosive clips.


Study the few color US 50 cal guncams and compare with the game.

Imagine how good a source a first person cam would be from WW2 or Medeival battles. We have that at our very disposal for the .50 cals effect on WW2 planes. We just need to make sure that we are not 'cherry picking' dramatic clips.

We can make sure of this by only using the very few colour guncams that exist, which have been saved for their 'color' and not for their explosive effect.



The .50's already set Japanese planes alight very easily dont they? Or am I confusing it with .303?? German planes would not light up that easy.

The .50's IMO SHOULD be a little underpowered. After all thats why every other country moved on to cannons. If .50's did the job just fine then there was no point in using/switching to cannons. The US were only using .50's because their 20mm cannon was unreliable.

M8, this is the poorest display of "logic" I have ever witnessed on these boards. Well done.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

VMF-214_Pappy
09-24-2007, 09:21 AM
Just get a CH pwnstick and problem solved.

Manu-6S
09-24-2007, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by VMF-214_Pappy:
Just get a CH pwnstick and problem solved.

Also changing Sim can be a good solution... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

TheBandit_76
09-24-2007, 09:37 AM
wow manoo, could you cry any more?

Pathetic.

Things to not to do if you are a Spitfire pilot:
1- Joining a DF server and taking an Axis plane: DAMN, this isn't an arcade game!!
2- Trying to overheat your engine... the delay can be very boring.
3- Gaining altitude and using vertical manouvre against the enemy... Spitifire isn't a energy fighter!
4- Trying to recover from a stall by yourself... your magical plane will recover alone after you say the words "Damn plane, I'm toppling my tea!!"
5- Putting your tea cup on the nose of your SpitfireVc

Manu-6S
09-24-2007, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
wow manoo, could you cry any more?

Pathetic.


My sig is ironic and sarcastic... but still I will never open a thread crying the my favourite plane is porked when all the other posters say the opposite... my sig can be pathetic, but your posts are childish http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sleepzzz.gif

And BTW I'm more scared by a well flown P51(or P47) than a stupid Spitfire... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Xiolablu3
09-24-2007, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Color guncams are the best source for us ourselves who can never actually be there. We can see the effect the 6 guns are having on the enemy plane and there is no 'cherry picking' of explosive clips.


Study the few color US 50 cal guncams and compare with the game.

Imagine how good a source a first person cam would be from WW2 or Medeival battles. We have that at our very disposal for the .50 cals effect on WW2 planes. We just need to make sure that we are not 'cherry picking' dramatic clips.

We can make sure of this by only using the very few colour guncams that exist, which have been saved for their 'color' and not for their explosive effect.



The .50's already set Japanese planes alight very easily dont they? Or am I confusing it with .303?? German planes would not light up that easy.

The .50's IMO SHOULD be a little underpowered. After all thats why every other country moved on to cannons. If .50's did the job just fine then there was no point in using/switching to cannons. The US were only using .50's because their 20mm cannon was unreliable.

M8, this is the poorest display of "logic" I have ever witnessed on these boards. Well done.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


If that reply came from someone I respected, then I might actually think about changing my mind, and actually looking into your comments.

Seeing it has brought about that response from you, then I feel pretty safe my thoughts are probably correct. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I am sure HayateAce, Billy and R_Target will be along soon to back you up... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

M_Gunz
09-24-2007, 10:49 AM
There is only ONE of any gun modeled. Even 151/20, only as external is different.
So you look at the ammo mix from when the first .50 armed plane is introduced.

P-39N? Buffalo? P-40?

Yeah sure you can find better mixes in times and places but how was the game made?
They had .50 in early war in P-39 first in IL2. Lend-Lease did send ammo. If they
VVS had known and it had been available in 1942, they might have asked for more API
and Incendiaries.

More choices of ammo is something that SOW should be covering. IL2 does not have the
code to support that. Go list the things not supported in other sims while yer at it.

It is what it is. It runs well. SOW should be better. Time spent overhauling IL2
will only delay SOW, the IL2 is a mess from changes we had been told even before FB
did some clean-up and after a while same with FB code. They're not going to add to
IL2 code all the support for what people think is simple. Any change with checks
and debugs and testing then distro is not simple at all and takes a lot of time.

Why WHINE like it's going to have your formula warm and bottles to your mouths sooner?
My .50's! No, my FW's! No, where's my incendiaries? Ahhhhhhh!

You don't like the guns, fly something else. You don't have to identify yourself to the
country of the plane if you can't handle it. It's not about You and Your Life and Your
Country and Pride, at least if you're not a bit sick in the head it's no big deal.
It's a way to understand some parts of history interactively but perfect it's not, neither
are the stories many base their own pictures on but oh, those are absolute and complete.

VW-IceFire
09-24-2007, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by R_Target:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I wonder what the Russian language IL-2 forums complain about?

About how OM has sold out to the imperialists and nerfed all the Soviet planes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Figures...so generally speaking everyone is unhappy. Is anyone happy? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JZG_Thiem
09-24-2007, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
... It's not about You and Your Life and Your
Country and Pride.......

you is wrong, be sure. At least on this board.

Von_Rat
09-24-2007, 11:09 AM
imo the biggest problem with the fiftys is poor tracer visability from the cockpit, and the poor visabilty of the bullet strikes when you hit your enemy.

on old crappy guncam films i can see bullet strikes much much easier than i can ingame.

GIAP.Shura
09-24-2007, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
There is only ONE of any gun modeled. Even 151/20, only as external is different.
So you look at the ammo mix from when the first .50 armed plane is introduced.

P-39N? Buffalo? P-40?

Yeah sure you can find better mixes in times and places but how was the game made?
They had .50 in early war in P-39 first in IL2. Lend-Lease did send ammo. If they
VVS had known and it had been available in 1942, they might have asked for more API
and Incendiaries.

More choices of ammo is something that SOW should be covering. IL2 does not have the
code to support that. Go list the things not supported in other sims while yer at it.

It is what it is. It runs well. SOW should be better. Time spent overhauling IL2
will only delay SOW, the IL2 is a mess from changes we had been told even before FB
did some clean-up and after a while same with FB code. They're not going to add to
IL2 code all the support for what people think is simple. Any change with checks
and debugs and testing then distro is not simple at all and takes a lot of time.

Why WHINE like it's going to have your formula warm and bottles to your mouths sooner?
My .50's! No, my FW's! No, where's my incendiaries? Ahhhhhhh!

You don't like the guns, fly something else. You don't have to identify yourself to the
country of the plane if you can't handle it. It's not about You and Your Life and Your
Country and Pride, at least if you're not a bit sick in the head it's no big deal.
It's a way to understand some parts of history interactively but perfect it's not, neither
are the stories many base their own pictures on but oh, those are absolute and complete.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Korolov1986
09-24-2007, 11:27 AM
Here are three tracks I took a few months ago from a offline East Front campaign w/ P-51D-5.

P-51D-5 vs Fw-190A-8, Lvov 1944 (http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_p51d5vs190a8.wmv)
P-51D-5 vs Fw-190A-9, Berlin, April 1945 (http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_p51d5vsfw190a8_april1945.wmv)
P-51D-5 vs Bf-109K-4, Berlin, April 1945 (http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_p51d5vs109k4.wmv)

Take from these clips what you will; they are NOT hard proof of ANYTHING except my skill with the aircraft and the weapon.

faustnik
09-24-2007, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mysticpuma2003:
oh god, get the popcorn...here goes another .50 cal thread http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
which shall be followed by:

the My 190 windscreen is porked thread
the you is wrong! No .50's ever killed a Tiger tank thread (despite the proof other wise)
i can't out turn a Sopwith Camle in my BF-109 super human clown wagon thread. please fix it Oleg
and of lets not forget the gem of Gems...the "i hate americans, & american planes, and they are al fat and lazy and stupid. we're from Europe so we're better than you, Oleg please make a sim with no American planes thread. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Copperhead,

Pls stop posting, you're embarrassing us in front to the Euros.

Thanks,

Your Fellow Americans

Kwiatos
09-24-2007, 01:08 PM
The fact is that in game 1x20mm cannon in Bf109 is much more deadly then 6x0,50 cal in P-51. Shoting down enemy from 0,50 caliber (P-51, P-47) is really hard work comparing to planes with 20mm cannons even in ratio 6(0,50cal):1(20mm).
Thats why i always prefer Spitfire over the P-51 or P-47 even if Spit is much slowier and have less chance to catch Fw190 or Bf109.

zardozid
09-24-2007, 01:32 PM
I personally find it amusing when I read threads complaining about under modeled .50cal machine guns...

I usually fly early war fighters...sometimes the KI-43 or other such armed fighters. By contrast I recentally tested the Mustang w/6 .50cal...WOW what a difference! Its so much easyer downing ANYTHING with these guns. One or two squeezes and your target is smoking and spinning...

I don't know about the whole "under-modeled" argument and number specs...ect. BUT the 6 .50cals are FAR from ineffective!



signed the 7.7mm warrior... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Xiolablu3
09-24-2007, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
imo the biggest problem with the fiftys is poor tracer visability from the cockpit, and the poor visabilty of the bullet strikes when you hit your enemy.

on old crappy guncam films i can see bullet strikes much much easier than i can ingame.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Absolutely agreed 100%

The strength looks fine to me, itys just that its so hard to see the tracer and where you are hitting.

Look at this guncam and see how visible the tracers are :-

http://raincoaster.com/2006/06/25/p47-guncam-footage-from-wwii-in-colour/

Waldo.Pepper
09-24-2007, 01:59 PM
http://raincoaster.com/2006/06/25/p47-guncam-footage-from-wwii-in-colour/

Nice flick there. Not commenting on the tracers.
But I am a little confused. I didn't see a single plane catch fire, or disintegrate in mid air. What am I missing?

Manu-6S
09-24-2007, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Kwiatos:
The fact is that in game 1x20mm cannon in Bf109 is much more deadly then 6x0,50 cal in P-51. Shoting down enemy from 0,50 caliber (P-51, P-47) is really hard work comparing to planes with 20mm cannons even in ratio 6(0,50cal):1(20mm).
Thats why i always prefer Spitfire over the P-51 or P-47 even if Spit is much slowier and have less chance to catch Fw190 or Bf109.

I disagree. It's only a feeling, since the 20mm is nose mounted aiming is easier and you hit hard poor armoured planes.

In your P51 and P47 bullets not are sprayed but hit the same point (read Shaw's book for some reference to the convergence method) to do the max damage... but they are wing mounted so you have to be skilled to hit your enemy at right distance.

You don't have only to aim at the enemy plane, but you need to aim at a precise part of that plane: aim for the 109's engine or the FW190's pilot... in that way even if you are out of convergence you will seriously damage enemy.

One or two months ago in warclouds (server that I don't like very much) I killed one FW190 and one Ju88 with a MustangIII (the uber Mustang): 4 x 0.50cal... I aim for the cockpit and bang: "PK".

Then there is a thing that many forget IMO (also in the other thread): P51 was the greatest and safest ESCORT fighter.

It was great in defending Bombers, attacking ALWAYS from advantage position and using its high rate weapons to HIT and DAMAGE enemies: you cant expect to blast them like in the "selected" guncams you are used to see (selected because spectacular).

It wasn't a pure fighter like Spitfires, La or 109s. His wings, his climb rate and his armament are not made to fight close to the enemy. Remember that Kozhedub downed 2 (TWO) P51 that had tactical advantage (he was ambushed)... 2 vs 1 in disadvantage position.

WW2's fights were mostly decide by tactical position, not by performance of the plane itself (this is also why I think the 1vs1 DF are useless to understand the real power of a plane...).

Try to do a coop mission of the old VOW style: 10 bombers escorted by 6 P51 against 4 109 (prob with gunpods) and 8 FW190 (with gunpods).

You will start from 7000m while the German must climb at low speed: which is you duty? kill them all or protect the bombers?

With .50cal (great accuracy) you can hit the most higher of them and force them to stay far from the bombers... enemy CAN'T do NOTHING. Of course usually you won't kill them in a single burst nad probably somebody else will steal your kill... but the mission, I repeat, is to protect the bombers. I that P51 was great.

And like Carguy said, this is the way P51s work: IMO they are the most coop-oriented planes in Il2.

joeap
09-24-2007, 02:18 PM
Great post Manu. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif That's the closest to how the real war was fought.

It reminds me a bit of how the Battle of the Atlantic was fought by convoy escorts. They did try to sink u--boats but the main thing was to detect them and drive them off. Especially early int he war it was not that easy to sink a u-boat by depth charging...but by keeping it down he could not fire torpedoes and eventually the convoy would sail no and you would break off to catch up and he would not be able to...mission accomplished.

TheBandit_76
09-24-2007, 02:22 PM
Surprise, surprise everyone. Manoo thinks the .50cals are juuuuuuust fine.

Of course he does.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

JG4_Helofly
09-24-2007, 02:26 PM
Here is what I see in game vs RL.

In RL films you will often see bf109 with glycol leak and smoke coming out of the engine or the radiators. Even a few small bullets can cause such damage. In-game the engine is also very often knocked out with some hits but the radiators are undestructible and not affected by enemy fire.
In-game there is also a huge difference between firing at convergence distance or farther away. At the right distance you can cut a plane in two buring pieces or shot off very easily the wings ( especialy the wings of the spit ) of a fighter. When you are not at the right distance you can sometimes hit several seconds in the fuselage without any effects or at least visual effect.

This might also be a DM problem. Look at the report Brain posted on the previous page. From directly astern the fw 190 should be almost completly safe when recieving 50 cal fire. Try it in-game. At convergence distance you have very good chances to set the 190 on fire and almost every time the engine is damaged. And ask a 190 pilot how often he lost controle after being hit because the controle cables are cut.

IMO it's more a DM problem than a cal 50 problem.

SeaFireLIV
09-24-2007, 02:30 PM
What the heck? Now we have a 0.50 cal complaint thread again? I thought we`d sen the last of this and proved that they did their job as well as any ordnance needs to do.

You guys are having a joke, yes?

Manu-6S
09-24-2007, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
Surprise, surprise everyone. Manoo thinks the .50cals are juuuuuuust fine.


No, I don't think they are totally fine: IMO tracers are not quite visible AND there is some problems with API (japanese planes catch fire easier with .303 than with .50).

But I understand the some of you guys thinks that spectacular effects won the war. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Sama51
09-24-2007, 03:02 PM
I don't see a problem with the .50s, any time I have delivered a burst in the convergence of the guns where the majority of my lead is flying, if it doesn't take him down it cripples the aircraft beyond an ability to continue the fight. The sim seems to have them right in the neighborhood of the amount of damage they should do.

If I make a poor pass and 'speckle' the enemey with bad aim,of course he is going to be left with nothing more than a few bullet holes and cosmetic damage. But anytime i hit him with a BURST (and not a long one at that, just a second or so) I can usually be assured that either he is a soon to be lawn dart or he is psoing al imited threat/running for home in a severely damaged aircraft.

They are machine guns, not guided missiles. Don't find scapegoats for poor aim. I personally PREFER .50s, with lots of ammo, six guns, and a very decent ROF, you dont have to be as conservative with your ammo and can lay down a ferocious field of fire. When the plane has ~400 rounds a gun, use it to your advantage.

Granite the fiftes may not enflict damage exactly in the manor the RL counterparts do, that is a limittation of the sim, this being the vital componets, limitations of the DM, types of ammo loaded in the belt etc. IMHO if these things were modeled, there would be no complaining.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But given the limitations, I feel the fifties are as close to modeling what they SHOULD do as possible. I like em' anyway.

FluffyDucks2
09-24-2007, 03:13 PM
What you are forgetting is that there are many whiners here who will not be happy until ALL LW aircraft spontaneously explode as soon as a "MyLittlePony" is within 5km of them..... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

VMF-214_Pappy
09-24-2007, 03:18 PM
Does it really matter anymore, I mean blue always has to have a advatage and I like that makes them a toughter kill. Lol. It will remain the same as it always has been. I fly both red and blue, yes its easier to bring a plane down with german cannons ie they are cannons and explode. Fact of matter is .50cal you got more ammo and but less likey to get that dramtic wing off or quick kill like cannons. I am not supporting this thread saying .50cal are undermodeled, just stating a opinion.

I mean I am overmodeled and oleg never got around to fixing that did he lol.

carguy_
09-24-2007, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Kwiatos:
The fact is that in game 1x20mm cannon in Bf109 is much more deadly then 6x0,50 cal in P-51. Shoting down enemy from 0,50 caliber (P-51, P-47) is really hard work comparing to planes with 20mm cannons even in ratio 6(0,50cal):1(20mm).
Thats why i always prefer Spitfire over the P-51 or P-47 even if Spit is much slowier and have less chance to catch Fw190 or Bf109.

Have you just EVER flown anything else than USAF/RAF?
The fact is that 50cal armed planes are the most feared by Luftwaffe pilots.In any plane you fly , you know that if the next round goes for your engine,fuselage,cockpit you`re either DISABLED or DEAD.No shedding wings, no flying parts of a/c frame, just being a sitting duck or dead.

And Spitfire pretty much proved to be quite ineffective in any map flown in Airforce War.Yes, people like many kills but you`re not safe nor you stop any bomber formation.

Greatest threat in Italy `44 map was the P38.

Kwiatos
09-24-2007, 04:07 PM
Sry but you dont know what you are saying. Spitfire and all planes with 20mm cannons are 100% more effective then with 0,50 caliber. I have more chance to shot enemy and survive in Spit then in P-51 using the same tactic boom and zoom. In plane with even one 20mm cannon you have more % chance to shot enemy in single pass then with 0,50. From my experience with flying p-51 when you want shot down enemy you need much more time and passes. Time when you could be attacked by other enemy plane. When enemy (bf109 or fw190)are shoting to your p-51 mostly you are dead or bail out but when you are shoting from P-51 to them there are very rare situation when they are shot down. So even if i like P-51 flying characterisitc the same i hate it uneffectivnes as a war weapon.

VMF-214_Pappy
09-24-2007, 04:11 PM
Dont worry the LUFT will always fight change to allied aircraft, I do thin .50cal are effective but tracers very hard to see and little incendiary effect exists and its hard to tell on a fast pass if you are evening hitting unlike other planes ie 12.7mm russian or 15mm u can see your hits very well.

Xiolablu3
09-24-2007, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">http://raincoaster.com/2006/06/25/p47-guncam-footage-from-wwii-in-colour/

Nice flick there. Not commenting on the tracers.
But I am a little confused. I didn't see a single plane catch fire, or disintegrate in mid air. What am I missing? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just posted that to demonstrate the visible tracer - note how easy it is to see where your shots are going.

It wasnt supposed to demonstrate fire effects.

Besides , I am pretty sure that its a whole bunch of P47's, taking turns attacking a single bf109. You can see the glycol leak he gets in the first burst throughout the clip.

LW_lcarp
09-24-2007, 05:43 PM
The .50 is effective in the game but the one thing everyone is looking for is to see the plane going down in flames. Online if you make a plane smoke and it looses some required parts but doesnt go down right away they know there is going to be some leech coming in behind him to get the kill.

Offline they want to see it go down as with the maps being so small alot of the kills make it back to base.

And that is what is wrong with the .50s.

AKA_TAGERT
09-24-2007, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by na85:
where IS tagert, these days? Haven't seen anyone calling anyone else Nancy Boy in a while, now.
http://geocities.com/grantsenn/STFU/PoorNancy.gif

ImMoreBetter
09-24-2007, 06:27 PM
The .50 is effective in the game but the one thing everyone is looking for is to see the plane going down in flames. Online if you make a plane smoke and it looses some required parts but doesnt go down right away they know there is going to be some leech coming in behind him to get the kill.

Offline they want to see it go down as with the maps being so small alot of the kills make it back to base.

And that is what is wrong with the .50s.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

The 50's are my favorite weapons in-game. Nice range, good damage, lots of ammunition.

Watching gun cam footage, you can see that some planes can take a lot of .50 cal hits before they disappear out of the camera.

Snyde-Dastardly
09-24-2007, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
What the heck? Now we have a 0.50 cal complaint thread again? I thought we`d sen the last of this and proved that they did their job as well as any ordnance needs to do.

You guys are having a joke, yes?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif Im with you SeaFire.

M4Sherman4
09-24-2007, 07:40 PM
Sorry .50 is 12.7.I was playing halo.Now back to the point a P-47 has 8 .50 cals.an la has 3 20mm. Put those planes head on and see wich one comes out alive.

Bearcat99
09-24-2007, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:
Then there is a thing that many forget IMO (also in the other thread): P51 was the greatest and safest ESCORT fighter.
It was great in defending Bombers, attacking ALWAYS from advantage position and using its high rate weapons to HIT and DAMAGE enemies: you cant expect to blast them like in the "selected" guncams you are used to see (selected because spectacular).


Keep in mind that in order for an escort fighter to do it's job it must have more than range and speed.. it must be able to fight, and fight well. The Mustang was all that.. it was a fast, maneuverable very stable gun platform.

The 50s in this sim are fine.. perhaps API is not modeled.. but the 50s themselves are fine.. it is just that some of the platforms are not, regardless to what anyone may say.. and I have no "prrofs" other than to say... fly the 50 cal modeled planes in the sim yourself and see... some are very stable and you can set up great deflection shots etc... while others are so skittish that even dead 6 shots when looking at the tracks do a lot of missing... or they get sucked up by the virtual armor on the target.... The main problem IMO aside from the apparent .. and I could be wrong.. lack of API is that some 50 cal platforms are much less stable than others.

VW-IceFire
09-24-2007, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by M4Sherman4:
Sorry .50 is 12.7.I was playing halo.Now back to the point a P-47 has 8 .50 cals.an la has 3 20mm. Put those planes head on and see wich one comes out alive.
By US Army reckoning the P-47 would need 9 .50cal machine guns to match that level of firepower. But that was probably based on a M2 20mm cannon (basically a Hispano Mark II).

Still...how much higher are the chances of 8 guns hitting a target over one gun hitting a target. Throw in fate/luck and either side could come out scott free or mutually assured destruction. A lucky 20mm or .50cal somewhere and its game over.

na85
09-24-2007, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
where IS tagert, these days? Haven't seen anyone calling anyone else Nancy Boy in a while, now.
http://geocities.com/grantsenn/STFU/PoorNancy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's an awesome image

R_Target
09-24-2007, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I am sure HayateAce, Billy and R_Target will be along soon to back you up... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Wow, I finally made someone's list. It only took three years. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


Your posts are riddled with erroneous (and sometimes just plain bad) information. If you don't like being corrected, maybe you should do some proper research before you post.

Trying to fling mud on me by associating my name with HayateAce was pretty weak. I'd like to say I expected more, but if I did, I'd be lying.

Cajun76
09-24-2007, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cajun76:
They found the task force just as they turned for home, but the amazing thing to me is that they wanted to find another plane, to try out the new rounds.

Don't know how much they should be curious if that WANTED plane had mk108s under its wings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If PBY pilots at Midway were worried about dealing with enemy planes with Mk 108s, I'd probably be typing this in Germanese. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Manu-6S
09-25-2007, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Keep in mind that in order for an escort fighter to do it's job it must have more than range and speed.. it must be able to fight, and fight well. The Mustang was all that.. it was a fast, maneuverable very stable gun platform.


I disagree on the "fight well": I think that tactical position is the 70% of a fight, the 20% is firing skill and the rest is "plane performance" overall...

Take a Spit, go 5000m over a enemy base an hit everything the come above the 3000m... the last time I did (and first time too, one year ago: it's not fun IMO) with one of my mate we got 3 F4-G2 both flying a SpitVb.

In my opinion tactical position is ALL in a warbirds battle: above all in RL where planes were not "dots" and sun attacks worked.

Of course I'm speaking about full difficulty server.

A interceptor MUST be a really good fighter because often it will fight without advantage position (think at La and Yak, Spitfire): any plane can be an effective escort fighter but it need to have GOOD RANGE... then, faster is better for every plane.

In that P51s were the greatest, fast and plenty of range.

And I keep reading that the US air forces stated german's weapons far better than their. Why don't we trust them?


Originally posted by Bearcat99:
fly the 50 cal modeled planes in the sim yourself and see...

I do mate, every time Red are outnumbered: the last time I took a P51 in warcloud I died 'cause I didn't fly it the right way (the way I used to fly in spitvs109). Simply I was at 4000 climbing then I went to save a pilot chased by a Dora under me... I hitted him and it disangaged (mission successfull) but another dora got me while I was extending... this because there isn't very much team play in Red side (very different from blue side where you need to team play to survive). I was awaiting for some DnB. But above all I was in Dora's favourite altitude!!

But if I take my P51 (because I don't pick up Spits) and I cover a section of map from 6000m every thing who pass under me need to return base or grant me a kill (think that one time I stayed inflight for 1 hour in the same sortie damaging 2 Fw190, 1 bf109 and killing in flames 2 bf109 after one BnZ).

carguy_
09-25-2007, 02:40 AM
I suddenly recalled that most of these people whnining here now about the fifties were in awe when the tracers got desynced.After a while everything started all over.Yup, it is a 4 year history of changes that didn`t (and never could) satisfy redwhiteandblue fanboys.

A bottomless pit is looks like.

VMF-214_HaVoK
09-25-2007, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:
I suddenly recalled that most of these people whnining here now about the fifties were in awe when the tracers got desynced.After a while everything started all over.Yup, it is a 4 year history of changes that didn`t (and never could) satisfy redwhiteandblue fanboys.

A bottomless pit is looks like.

I believe there is European UBI general forums are there not? You can always stay there and post instead of trolling every US plane related thread and whining about whiners. You been here long enough to know thats lamest thing one can do. You been here long enough to know how pathetic that is. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

carguy_
09-25-2007, 03:06 AM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
I believe there is European UBI general forums are there not? You can always stay there and post instead of trolling every US plane related thread and whining about whiners. You been here long enough to know thats lamest thing one can do. You been here long enough to know how pathetic that is. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Link?

You been here on this world long enough to know that life ain`t as easy as we would like it to be.

Anyways, those types of threads lost all features of a discussion long ago.

msalama
09-25-2007, 03:24 AM
You been here long enough to know thats lamest thing one can do.

Hey, all I've _EVER_ done on these boards has been whining about whiners http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I've decided to finally give that up now however because some things just won't change regardless of what Maddox et. al. decide to do (or not do).

Oh, and the .50s seem to be quite OK in my experience, belting possibly excluded... and this is coming from someone who flies predominantly Red too, BTW http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SeaFireLIV
09-25-2007, 04:12 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:
I suddenly recalled that most of these people whnining here now about the fifties were in awe when the tracers got desynced.After a while everything started all over.Yup, it is a 4 year history of changes that didn`t (and never could) satisfy redwhiteandblue fanboys.

A bottomless pit is looks like.

Sorry, but I must agree to this.

I remember well the hollering about 0.50s, desyncing them and them not having enough kill power. It got to the point that OLEG HIMSELF made his own comments on the rampant complaining. He DID make changes. at the end of the changes, the 0.50s were unsynced, the 0.50s were more powerful and evryone (the US) said `Well done, oleg` and it all went quiet.

Now because someone makes a new thread 2 years later that makes all of Oleg`s listening and effort worthless as if nothing happened?

Rubbish. Any more `fixing` of the 0.50s would turn them into some fantasy.

People so easily become unappreciative and forget, then others jump on the bandwagon just to look like a patriotic american.

Rest assured, oleg`s done enough (more than enough) for these guns.

A bottomless pit it does indeed look like.

Blutarski2004
09-25-2007, 05:29 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:
I suddenly recalled that most of these people whnining here now about the fifties were in awe when the tracers got desynced.After a while everything started all over.Yup, it is a 4 year history of changes that didn`t (and never could) satisfy redwhiteandblue fanboys.

A bottomless pit is looks like.


..... Gee, it seems to me that there are plenty of "redwhiteandblue fanboys" who are pretty happy with the 50cal as it sits right now. I certainly am. I'm an American AND the person who sent all the M2 ballistics and dispersion data to Oleg way back when. Of course, it WOULD be nice to see API added to the 50cal ammo load-out. It was in standard use from January 1944.

If we can get the revision of the M-Geschoss load-out for the MG151, which this "redwhiteandblue fanboy" also supported. Of course, I'd happily forego the API if an engine-cooling system was added to the 109 damage model.

carguy_
09-25-2007, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
..... Gee, it seems to me that there are plenty of "redwhiteandblue fanboys" who are pretty happy with the 50cal as it sits right now. I certainly am. I'm an American AND the person who sent all the M2 ballistics and dispersion data to Oleg way back when. Of course, it WOULD be nice to see API added to the 50cal ammo load-out. It was in standard use from January 1944.

Believe me, there are really LOTS of things that would be nice to add.My comments are solely directed at those never satisfied, those that can`t tell if a BIG progress has been made, those that forget the good part and keep on screaming about the bad.What`s bad in having fun of them?
As for the dispersion data, well it seems that you helped in doing a step back since Oleg was pressed to model in point convergence which is good for the P38 but fatal for wing gun mounted planes.That`s one of p51 bandwagon crowd "achievements".



If we can get the revision of the M-Geschoss load-out for the MG151, which this "redwhiteandblue fanboy" also supported. Of course, I'd happily forego the API if an engine-cooling system was added to the 109 damage model.

I don`t understand.I thought the belt was fixed pretty long ago,credit for tigertalon.It`s ok for most LW players.I could ofcourse send tracks with La5/Yak9/I185 being hit in the engine,cokpit,wing from distances less than 100m without result but I won`t.It happens often though I don`t see why should I CONTINOUSLY come here and show the same trks and screens over and over.If the ammo belt is correct then I don`t see a reason to complain.

What do you mean about engine cooling in the 109?Isn`t the engine vulnerable enough for you?

Blutarski2004
09-25-2007, 06:15 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:
As for the dispersion data, well it seems that you helped in doing a step back since Oleg was pressed to model in point convergence which is good for the P38 but fatal for wing gun mounted planes.That`s one of p51 bandwagon crowd "achievements".

..... Yes, the "good old days" when M2 50cal had a 15 mil dispersion cone (as opposed to the correct dispersion of 4 mils). Easy to hit but nearly impossible to shoot anything down, since the bullet density was about 1/14th what it should have been. This was just as much a problem for the P38 as for the P47 and P51. There was a lot of complaint about that issue. But, hey, what else can you expect from all those "redwhiteandblue fanboy" whiners.

It would really be nice to see more flexibility in the game for adjusting convergence and making pattern fire harmonizations. IIRC, it was possible in CFS2.

Manu-6S
09-25-2007, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
It would really be nice to see more flexibility in the game for adjusting convergence and making pattern fire harmonizations. IIRC, it was possible in CFS2.

SoW's wish list. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

R_Target
09-25-2007, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
It would really be nice to see more flexibility in the game for adjusting convergence and making pattern fire harmonizations. IIRC, it was possible in CFS2.

SoW's wish list. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto.

faustnik
09-25-2007, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
The Mustang was all that.. it was a fast, maneuverable very stable gun platform.

There seems to be some question on this. Did you read Viper's reply to my question on this subject?

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3961001095/p/17


...it is just that some of the platforms are not, regardless to what anyone may say...

I've noticed that the P-51 and F4U get very unstable in with certain trim/speed combinations. The P-40 is the best contrast, as it is a great firing platform. I've also noticed however, that some pilots are able to achieve excellent results with both the F4U and Mustang. So, I am very interested to hear what other people say about getting the right combinations.

I've asked, three times now, for ntracks and hardware/settings combos of the people who have issues and received no reply. Since we know that not everyone has this issue, wouldn't it be more productive to try to isolate the issues instead of just "Oleg's model is wrong"?


Comments have been made that the P-51 stalls easily, and that is certainly not true for my setup, it handles very smoothly through maneuvers. Maybe some the issues of stalling and firing instability are related, maybe not? I know that I'm going to try and learn as much as I can to improve my hit rate with the P-51 and F4U.

VMF-214_Pappy
09-25-2007, 10:24 AM
SeaFireLIV I find your comment
"People so easily become unappreciative and forget, then others jump on the bandwagon just to look like a patriotic american". very streotypical and offensive being a American and a soldier that fought for freedom of my country. Please refrain from being the typical EURO American hater because of our politics or unpopular war. I do recall much of Europe relying on American support during WW2 or do we forget so soon. Keep your personal view of Americans to yourself I am so tired of the American retheoric and its getting old. Sorry some of us are patriots and love our country.




Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
I suddenly recalled that most of these people whnining here now about the fifties were in awe when the tracers got desynced.After a while everything started all over.Yup, it is a 4 year history of changes that didn`t (and never could) satisfy redwhiteandblue fanboys.

A bottomless pit is looks like.

Sorry, but I must agree to this.

I remember well the hollering about 0.50s, desyncing them and them not having enough kill power. It got to the point that OLEG HIMSELF made his own comments on the rampant complaining. He DID make changes. at the end of the changes, the 0.50s were unsynced, the 0.50s were more powerful and evryone (the US) said `Well done, oleg` and it all went quiet.

Now because someone makes a new thread 2 years later that makes all of Oleg`s listening and effort worthless as if nothing happened?

Rubbish. Any more `fixing` of the 0.50s would turn them into some fantasy.

People so easily become unappreciative and forget, then others jump on the bandwagon just to look like a patriotic american.

Rest assured, oleg`s done enough (more than enough) for these guns.

A bottomless pit it does indeed look like. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SeaFireLIV
09-25-2007, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by VMF-214_Pappy:
very streotypical and offensive being a American and a soldier that fought for freedom of my country. Please refrain from being the typical EURO American hater because of our politics or unpopular war. I do recall much of Europe relying on American support during WW2 or do we forget so soon. Keep your personal view of Americans to yourself I am so tired of the American retheoric and its getting old. Sorry some of us are patriots and love our country.





One has to type with 50 clauses or someone gets the wrong end of the stick, but I will not shy away from my point.

There is nothing `anti-American` about what i said. What i was saying is that some will say that the P51 is porked just to be patriotic rather than OBJECTIVE. Many of the complainers are just jumping on the bandwagon without a clue of what the problem actually is!

There`s nothing wrong in being Patriotic for your country, but there`s something wrong when it makes you polarised and unobjective about the issue at hand. As I see so many do.

I remind myself of this EVERYTIME, if I have an issue with my fave plane like the Spitfire or Hurricane - that is to avoid allowing my patriotic British side blinding me from being fair and objective.

crazyivan1970
09-25-2007, 10:43 AM
This thread is taking wrong direction, i suggest you get back on track...

VW-IceFire
09-25-2007, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
The Mustang was all that.. it was a fast, maneuverable very stable gun platform.

There seems to be some question on this. Did you read Viper's reply to my question on this subject?

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3961001095/p/17


...it is just that some of the platforms are not, regardless to what anyone may say...

I've noticed that the P-51 and F4U get very unstable in with certain trim/speed combinations. The P-40 is the best contrast, as it is a great firing platform. I've also noticed however, that some pilots are able to achieve excellent results with both the F4U and Mustang. So, I am very interested to hear what other people say about getting the right combinations.

I've asked, three times now, for ntracks and hardware/settings combos of the people who have issues and received no reply. Since we know that not everyone has this issue, wouldn't it be more productive to try to isolate the issues instead of just "Oleg's model is wrong"?


Comments have been made that the P-51 stalls easily, and that is certainly not true for my setup, it handles very smoothly through maneuvers. Maybe some the issues of stalling and firing instability are related, maybe not? I know that I'm going to try and learn as much as I can to improve my hit rate with the P-51 and F4U. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Both of those have a bit of sway on my machine but I usually counter that with rudder and good trim (just keeping the ball centered). Making the controls less sensitive is a default thing I do whenever I'm working with a plane. The controls are almost always too sensitive for the X-52 and I suspect that other peoples sticks may be even more sensitive and should further decrease the sliders.

But you're right...there may be some sort of technical issue on the users end that would cause excessive instability in certain aircraft. We've seen it before...particularly with the 4.02/4.03/4.04 patches.

Blutarski2004
09-25-2007, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
The Mustang was all that.. it was a fast, maneuverable very stable gun platform.

There seems to be some question on this. Did you read Viper's reply to my question on this subject?

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3961001095/p/17


...it is just that some of the platforms are not, regardless to what anyone may say...

I've noticed that the P-51 and F4U get very unstable in with certain trim/speed combinations. The P-40 is the best contrast, as it is a great firing platform. I've also noticed however, that some pilots are able to achieve excellent results with both the F4U and Mustang. So, I am very interested to hear what other people say about getting the right combinations.

I've asked, three times now, for ntracks and hardware/settings combos of the people who have issues and received no reply. Since we know that not everyone has this issue, wouldn't it be more productive to try to isolate the issues instead of just "Oleg's model is wrong"?


Comments have been made that the P-51 stalls easily, and that is certainly not true for my setup, it handles very smoothly through maneuvers. Maybe some the issues of stalling and firing instability are related, maybe not? I know that I'm going to try and learn as much as I can to improve my hit rate with the P-51 and F4U. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Both of those have a bit of sway on my machine but I usually counter that with rudder and good trim (just keeping the ball centered). Making the controls less sensitive is a default thing I do whenever I'm working with a plane. The controls are almost always too sensitive for the X-52 and I suspect that other peoples sticks may be even more sensitive and should further decrease the sliders.

But you're right...there may be some sort of technical issue on the users end that would cause excessive instability in certain aircraft. We've seen it before...particularly with the 4.02/4.03/4.04 patches. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... It's certainly possible that a lot of the instability attributed to the FM of an aircraft MIGHT actually be the product of un-optimized joystick settings for that particular plane.

Friendly_flyer
09-25-2007, 12:32 PM
I'm quite sure the .50 works OK. I haven't heard anyone complain about its effectiveness in the Thunderbolt or Buffalo. This leads me to conclude, like Bearcat, that it's the P-51 that's not quite up to spec, not the .50.

Could the "jumpy" P-51 behaviour that several here have mentioned have something to do with very sensitive rudder/elevators? I'm no expert in aviation or in sim technology, but it seems reasonable to me that directional stability comes at the expense of manoeuvrability and vice versa. The P-51 has very touchy controls at high speed. Could it's instability as a gun-platform be an unfortunate side effect dictated by the game engines limitation?

fordfan25
09-25-2007, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by R_Target:
Hitting power is good, especially at convergence. Incendiary effects are weak or non-existent. agreed 100%

JG4_Helofly
09-25-2007, 01:53 PM
If you hit at convergence you will see much planes going down on fire. Try it offline against some fw190, bf109 and spitfire. The 190 and 109 will burn and the spit will nearly always loose a wing or both.
If you are out of convergence range you will never see any fire.

Sama51
09-25-2007, 02:21 PM
The 50's are my favorite weapons in-game. Nice range, good damage, lots of ammunition.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif


I've noticed that the P-51 and F4U get very unstable in with certain trim/speed combinations. The P-40 is the best contrast, as it is a great firing platform. I've also noticed however, that some pilots are able to achieve excellent results with both the F4U and Mustang. So, I am very interested to hear what other people say about getting the right combinations.

I've asked, three times now, for ntracks and hardware/settings combos of the people who have issues and received no reply. Since we know that not everyone has this issue, wouldn't it be more productive to try to isolate the issues instead of just "Oleg's model is wrong"?


Comments have been made that the P-51 stalls easily, and that is certainly not true for my setup, it handles very smoothly through maneuvers. Maybe some the issues of stalling and firing instability are related, maybe not? I know that I'm going to try and learn as much as I can to improve my hit rate with the P-51 and F4U.

I agrre. Something about the planes is a tad bit on the shaky side. I thought it was a bit pecular for aircraft, (particularly the F4U) which were notorious for being stable gun platforms.

Other than that, I love the .50s. A Spit has 2x20mm and 4x.30cal, the .30s being relatively useless. Therefore, I'm only using the 20mms to inflict most of my damage. Why would I prefer NOT to have 6 .50cals firing with MORE ammo and a greater chance of hitting with the ROF and dispersion? Just MHO.

VMF-214_Pappy
09-25-2007, 02:50 PM
I am not complaining about .50cal effectiveness, just observering forums and noticing when it comes to American aircraft complaints it always ends up political, usually with some American bashing added, maybe I got you wrong on what you posted but so tired of seeing it here and in Hyperlobby.




Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_Pappy:
very streotypical and offensive being a American and a soldier that fought for freedom of my country. Please refrain from being the typical EURO American hater because of our politics or unpopular war. I do recall much of Europe relying on American support during WW2 or do we forget so soon. Keep your personal view of Americans to yourself I am so tired of the American retheoric and its getting old. Sorry some of us are patriots and love our country.





One has to type with 50 clauses or someone gets the wrong end of the stick, but I will not shy away from my point.

There is nothing `anti-American` about what i said. What i was saying is that some will say that the P51 is porked just to be patriotic rather than OBJECTIVE. Many of the complainers are just jumping on the bandwagon without a clue of what the problem actually is!

There`s nothing wrong in being Patriotic for your country, but there`s something wrong when it makes you polarised and unobjective about the issue at hand. As I see so many do.

I remind myself of this EVERYTIME, if I have an issue with my fave plane like the Spitfire or Hurricane - that is to avoid allowing my patriotic British side blinding me from being fair and objective. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

JG53Frankyboy
09-25-2007, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Sama51:
Other than that, I love the .50s. A Spit has 2x20mm and 4x.30cal, the .30s being relatively useless. Therefore,

some, to name them the 'e', have 2x .50cal - and 20rounds more per canon than the 'c' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Choctaw111
09-25-2007, 06:00 PM
The 50 cals are VERY effective. For those that do not have success with them, you need to set your convergence and know when your target is at or near that convergence. That is the biggest problem for those that complain about them. They fire too close or too far away and do not score many hits at their convergence. It really is that simple. We ALL deal with the same ammo (whether you think it is weak or not is irrelevant) so why do only SOME people have success with the 50 cal? They know when to fire.

crazyivan1970
09-25-2007, 06:08 PM
Choctaw, common sense is not allowed, take it all back right now, or else!!!

Choctaw111
09-25-2007, 06:09 PM
Here is a photo I just took (for you viewing enjoyment) of a 50 cal next to a 14.5mm to show you how much larger the 14.5 really is. It has a lot more power.

PS Sorry that the 50 is a little banged up. I pulled the slug a while back. The 14.5 was cleared from a jam out of a BTR60 that I got from the Romanian KFOR that I was with in the Balkans.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/50CALand14.5.jpg

SeaFireLIV
09-25-2007, 06:15 PM
Always nice to see a dose of reality.

DustyBarrels77
09-25-2007, 06:16 PM
I chose no just for a joke http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifCan we have a .303 poll next so i can say they are not underpowered also?

Gunstat 12x303s vs a emil 758 hits vs one tap of 2 20s to explode into nothing its comical really.

There is no advantage longer ranges either which the browning was famous for, easier to get hits longer distances then cannon and why the usn and us used the heavier weight mgs over cannon, easier to aim, easier to get hits longer ranger better for the dogfight, escorting was fighters vs fighters not for bomber killing and they were more then effective on any enemy ac in a short 2-3 sec burst.

Guess none of you are into gancamera along with crew reports ammo expended etc all that good nittygritty stuff.

I nice dose of reality would be the p47s 8 brownings and hurricanes 12 .303s hitting harder then a single 20mm.

what would be nice is a difference in firepower in this game, can really tell from one two three or 4 20mm ac in hitting power vs fighters. Theres such a difference in hitting power in this game its silly and inaccurate. 6 and 8 .50s are devastating in reality in this game they are nerf. Dont matter they will never change just get worse and will never see any 8 and 12 .303 or 6 and 8 .50 cal hit harder then single double or triple 20mm which it should. All the ac should have devastating firepower and ability to disable any ac in game in a good 2-3 second burst, weather its snapped cables killed pilot or parts breaking off which was so rare in reality. Its just a game and always will be but it really is not fun on the mg side at all being in a slower unmanuverable ac which takes 2-3 passes on an ac that after a good 2-3 burst can still have the advantage in all flight aspects and kill you in a 1 sec tap exploding the ac, same goes for both sides not fun in cannon ac when fighting say 6-8 usn fighters and killing them all single handedly and good usn pilots who are flying right bnzing not just turn fighting on the deck.

Im still wishing for mr maddox to put in a host feature that gives all sides the same fm dm and hitting power, sick of this useless fm dm and weapon discussion. Rather it be even for all sides not the plane making someone good at the game.

would bring back teamwork, true skill, and excellent in tournements.

rather have that even tho its unrealistic then some crazed yahoos interpretation of how he thinks it is and saying aeronautical committees testing is wrong and his is correct which changes so drastically every single patch. Wise up maddox you is wrong have been each and every patch and will continue to be in the future and always will be mustachio!

All the wwii vets who flew this game and the real ac said your wrong as well many vids of them all flying this game and their comments as well and from all countries http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif german finnish american british romanian...

I cant wait for BOB SOW your cannon vs 6 8 12 .303s with neg g cutout vs your 1 shot explosion into nothing 20mm http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif will be like the hurris now vs the he111

15 he111s take out 30 hurrimk1s, sry you make a nice looking game which has been fun flying 1 shot kill cannonrides for many years but its so uneven its not funny and everyone really knows this here but some are happy with the situation making someone who cant fly well do well with a easy to use ride.

R_Target
09-25-2007, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by Choctaw111:
The 50 cals are VERY effective. For those that do not have success with them, you need to set your convergence and know when your target is at or near that convergence. That is the biggest problem for those that complain about them. They fire too close or too far away and do not score many hits at their convergence. It really is that simple. We ALL deal with the same ammo (whether you think it is weak or not is irrelevant) so why do only SOME people have success with the 50 cal? They know when to fire.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
I also think people should check their hit percentages, they might be surprised.

Bearcat99
09-25-2007, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by R_Target:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Choctaw111:
The 50 cals are VERY effective. For those that do not have success with them, you need to set your convergence and know when your target is at or near that convergence. That is the biggest problem for those that complain about them. They fire too close or too far away and do not score many hits at their convergence. It really is that simple. We ALL deal with the same ammo (whether you think it is weak or not is irrelevant) so why do only SOME people have success with the 50 cal? They know when to fire.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
I also think people should check their hit percentages, they might be surprised. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

It is just some platforms are less stable than others.... I have set 109's engines afire with 2-3 second bursts from a P-51B... when I can nail it.

fordfan25
09-25-2007, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
If you hit at convergence you will see much planes going down on fire. Try it offline against some fw190, bf109 and spitfire. The 190 and 109 will burn and the spit will nearly always loose a wing or both.
If you are out of convergence range you will never see any fire. i have tried this many times. on FW190s i have a low % of fires happen.now aginst F4u's its near every time for some resone http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif. And any way you should not need to be at convergence to have this effect.

fordfan25
09-25-2007, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Choctaw111:
The 50 cals are VERY effective. For those that do not have success with them, you need to set your convergence and know when your target is at or near that convergence. That is the biggest problem for those that complain about them. They fire too close or too far away and do not score many hits at their convergence. It really is that simple. We ALL deal with the same ammo (whether you think it is weak or not is irrelevant) so why do only SOME people have success with the 50 cal? They know when to fire. its not that simple at all. i fire at convergence or close to it 85% of the time.i have a good to avg hit% in WC stats. my normal % air2air would be ball park 5% wich is about avg. and in some case's i can down 190's in 20 hits and i have seen them RTB with well over 100 50cal hits "gunstat" and once or twice i took the wing off a 190 with a few hits. I think the over all DM's are a bit wonky or packet loss could be effect. IMHO there is something off about the 50's. probly not do to the 50's hitting power but the simplicty in some DM as well as bug's/mistakes in some DM's . plus i agree with others about the 50s not haveing enough Incendiary effects . in Zeke vs Wildcat its ALOT easyer to light up a zero or ki in early war maps with 303's. much harder with 50's how ever 50s do cause physical damnge in the form of wing snap.

fordfan25
09-25-2007, 06:44 PM
also i wounder if the fact that the 50's seem to do a great jub at snaping wings at times is do to make up for the fact that we seem to be unable to cause ammobelts to explode ect? i means you hit a wing full of 20mm bullet belts its going to cause a problem but i dont think iv ever seen a plane in FB's have the wing explode in the manner iv seen them go in guncam's. in FB the wings seem to just snap.

Gibbage1
09-25-2007, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
This thread is taking wrong direction, i suggest you get back on track...

Im rather sure this thread STARTED in the wrong direction.

Anyways, here is my take on the .50 cal. Vs the pitiful gun's the US had in 1.0 and FB, the current .50 cal do well on MOST aircraft. On the other hand, there are a few select aircraft that are EXTREAMLY resistant vs .50 cal due too the lack of API or I's in the belting. A Betty is insanely hard to light up in even a P-47, and even the Zero wont light well. Shooting down 16 Zero's in a QMB in a P-47 will net you about 2 fires in the fuel tanks. Thats just sad.

The thing is, IL2's dm system is geared to reward HE shells due to the lack of damageable systems inside an aircraft. 90% of IL2's aircraft is just empty space with nothing to damage it, so even if you HIT an aircraft, most of the time you did not DAMAGE anything. Fuel tanks are a big part of the damage system for a .50 cal, yet its insanly hard to light any fuel tanks up with them. So that puts the .50 cal at an extreme disadvantage. Also, another CRITICAL system that a .50 cal cant damage is the radiator. The radiator is simply NOT modeled in IL2, and that was HUGE!!!! How many pilot stories from kills talk about glycol streams?

So lets review. 2 of the 4 major damage system's in IL2 (Fuel tank fire, and Radiator) are not modeled, are modeled very poorly, so the only thing on an aircraft the US can damage is the engine and pilot. The are 2 other systems, control cables or structure, but thats just rolling the dice and is not something you can really aim for.

Thats why people have problems with the .50 cal. They CANT get a radiator/glycol kill, and its insanely hard to light fuel tanks.

Thats my take on it.

Gibbage1
09-25-2007, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by fordfan25:
also i wounder if the fact that the 50's seem to do a great jub at snaping wings at times is do to make up for the fact that we seem to be unable to cause ammobelts to explode ect? i means you hit a wing full of 20mm bullet belts its going to cause a problem but i dont think iv ever seen a plane in FB's have the wing explode in the manner iv seen them go in guncam's. in FB the wings seem to just snap.

Ammo boxes ARE modeled in IL2, but hitting one will only cause the gun to jam. I have seen a lot of video's of FW-190's wings exploding from ammo hits in WWII. It was a big target, but not as big as the fuel tank and radiators, two things you really cant target in IL2.

fordfan25
09-25-2007, 11:03 PM
yea thats kinda what i was sayn about how some planes have simple Dm's. there are alot of things just not there or as you say modled poorly as far as reacting to hits.

ImpStarDuece
09-26-2007, 02:19 AM
DustyBarrels77: Do you have any idea about what your ranting about, really?

You do realise that a 20mm cannon shell weighs between 2.3 to 3.1 times what a .50 cal round does (and up to 13 times what a .303 ), has more than three times the volume, and packs between four and twenty times the amount of high explosive and incendiary material inside it.

A .50 cal shell burns, a 20mm shell EXPLODES. There are several current military history authors which rate the 20mm as 4-5 times more destructive, per round, than the .50 cal.


Originally posted by DustyBarrels77:

There is no advantage longer ranges either which the browning was famous for, easier to get hits longer distances then cannon and why the usn and us used the heavier weight mgs over cannon, easier to aim, easier to get hits longer ranger better for the dogfight, escorting was fighters vs fighters not for bomber killing and they were more then effective on any enemy ac in a short 2-3 sec burst.

Most cannons have RoFs and shell ballistics (sectional density, profile) that are poorer than the US or Russian .50 cal shells, making them more difficult to hit with as the range extends.

However, as the range gets greater, so does the relative advantage in hitting power of cannon, due to their significantly higher HE content and overall mass and lover reliance on kinetic energy and shot placement to damage vital components.

Why try to hit the engine/pilot/oil system when you can blow control surfaces off and break major empennage?



I nice dose of reality would be the p47s 8 brownings and hurricanes 12 .303s hitting harder then a single 20mm.

In no way shape or form should the marginally effective 12 .303 armament be compared to the VERY effective 8 x .50 cal armament, either in real life or in the sim.

A centerline mounted 20mm such as a MG151 should put out just more than half the throw weight of lead compared to 12 .303s (1.3 -1.5 kg vs 2.5 kg). However, even if half the .303 rounds are API (and historically they tended to be a maximum of were about 1 in 3 in most beltings I've seen), the throw weight of HE will almost two thirds less than that of a cannon (approximately 56 g of incendiary material vs 22 g of incendiary and 128 g of HE).

It may be a little counter intuitive, but, provided you can aim well, a single 20mm SHOULD be more effective than a battery of 12 .303s.


what would be nice is a difference in firepower in this game, can really tell from one two three or 4 20mm ac in hitting power vs fighters. Theres such a difference in hitting power in this game its silly and inaccurate. 6 and 8 .50s are devastating in reality in this game they are nerf. Dont matter they will never change just get worse and will never see any 8 and 12 .303 or 6 and 8 .50 cal hit harder then single double or triple 20mm which it should. All the ac should have devastating firepower and ability to disable any ac in game in a good 2-3 second burst, weather its snapped cables killed pilot or parts breaking off which was so rare in reality. Its just a game and always will be but it really is not fun on the mg side at all being in a slower unmanuverable ac which takes 2-3 passes on an ac that after a good 2-3 burst can still have the advantage in all flight aspects and kill you in a 1 sec tap exploding the ac, same goes for both sides not fun in cannon ac when fighting say 6-8 usn fighters and killing them all single handedly and good usn pilots who are flying right bnzing not just turn fighting on the deck.

A friendly piece of advice: When in an internet based discussion the following elements of the written language are vital:

1. Paragraphs;
2. Punctuation;
3. Capitalisation;
4. Spelling;
5. Grammar;


rather have that even tho its unrealistic then some crazed yahoos interpretation of how he thinks it is and saying aeronautical committees testing is wrong and his is correct which changes so drastically every single patch. Wise up maddox you is wrong have been each and every patch and will continue to be in the future and always will be mustachio!

All the wwii vets who flew this game and the real ac said your wrong as well many vids of them all flying this game and their comments as well and from all countries http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif german finnish american british romanian...

Would you care to provide some corroborating evidence?

From the little knowledge that I have of the production of the sim, Oleg has a degree in aeronautic engineering, and the patches are playtested by up to 20 pilots.


I cant wait for BOB SOW your cannon vs 6 8 12 .303s with neg g cutout vs your 1 shot explosion into nothing 20mm http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif will be like the hurris now vs the he111

15 he111s take out 30 hurrimk1s, sry you make a nice looking game which has been fun flying 1 shot kill cannonrides for many years but its so uneven its not funny and everyone really knows this here but some are happy with the situation making someone who cant fly well do well with a easy to use ride.

Only if they attack the He-111s from the front, where the single 20mm mount was. Even then there were relatively few 20mm armed aircraft as it was something of an improvised modification during the BoB period, and only commonplace afterwards.

Manu-6S
09-26-2007, 02:38 AM
The thing is, IL2's dm system is geared to reward HE shells due to the lack of damageable systems inside an aircraft. 90% of IL2's aircraft is just empty space with nothing to damage it, so even if you HIT an aircraft, most of the time you did not DAMAGE anything. Fuel tanks are a big part of the damage system for a .50 cal, yet its insanly hard to light any fuel tanks up with them. So that puts the .50 cal at an extreme disadvantage. Also, another CRITICAL system that a .50 cal cant damage is the radiator. The radiator is simply NOT modeled in IL2, and that was HUGE!!!! How many pilot stories from kills talk about glycol streams?

Disagree on all except the radiator matter.

One single burst will DAMAGE a FW190 or a BF109 (easily the first) in form of CONTROL DAMAGE.

And PK is frequent too.

I think we all agree on the fact that .50cal have NO API bullet (NOBODY say the opposite here).

TheGhostFiles
09-26-2007, 04:27 AM
Have you noticed the FM2 has the correct .50 cal potency?

GF

Side note:

The Hellcat has less potency and cannot outclimb a Zero. Go figure.

ImpStarDuece
09-26-2007, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by TheGhostFiles:
Have you noticed the FM2 has the correct .50 cal potency?


All US M2 .50s are the same in the game...



Side note:

The Hellcat has less potency and cannot outclimb a Zero. Go figure.

Depends what altitude your at.

According the the US TAIC, an admittedly underperforming A6M-52 (hitting 326 mph tops, 26 mph below normal top speed) could outclimb an F6F-5 by more than 600 ft/min up to 9,000 feet, evening out by 14,000 feet. From that height upwards, the F5F was 250-500 ft/min better .

The Hellcat we have in the game is a little underperforming, compared to the one the TAIC was testing with.

R_Target
09-26-2007, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
The Hellcat we have in the game is a little underperforming, compared to the one the TAIC was testing with.

You can say that again.

JG4_Helofly
09-26-2007, 08:01 AM
@ Fordfan, I tried it several times yesterday and at least 3 of 4 190 went down burning when firing at convergence range. The 109 went down mostly with black smoke.

JG53Frankyboy
09-26-2007, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by R_Target:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
The Hellcat we have in the game is a little underperforming, compared to the one the TAIC was testing with.

You can say that again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

and is missiing "some" of its rounds http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

faustnik
09-26-2007, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
They CANT get a radiator/glycol kill.

I agree. The more advanced the DM gets, the more effective non-explosive rounds, like .50 cal, will be. Of course, HE rounds will have additional effects too.

faustnik
09-26-2007, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
@ Fordfan, I tried it several times yesterday and at least 3 of 4 190 went down burning when firing at convergence range. The 109 went down mostly with black smoke.

Well, that's part of what makes .50 more difficult than 20mm, you have to hit at convergence. In my 190, all ranges are optimum. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Choctaw111
09-26-2007, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Choctaw, common sense is not allowed, take it all back right now, or else!!!

I just came back in to check out how this thread was shaping up and I saw you sneak this in here between my two posts
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Nice one http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I'm not quite sure if I should really take it back though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I know that not many people want to hear stuff like common sense and all...
because after all, the 50s ARE definitely porked (sarcastic tone added)

The DO WORK. Just learn how to use them...Just like any other aircraft you just have to learn how to use them effectively. (That is a lot of "justs")

Gibbage1
09-26-2007, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:

All US M2 .50s are the same in the game...



Wrong. Nose mounted .50 cal's in the P-39 and Brewster (and others) are totally differant. Oleg himself told me that instead of changing the ROF on those guns (From 800 to 500RPM) he made the .50 cal do HALF damage, and just gave each gun twice the ammo to simulate the gun firing at half the RPM.

So there is 1 gun modeled differantly then others.

Then, we had the P-40's un-synced .50's when all other .50's were synced. Also, those P-40's were a LOT more powerfull then other aircraft, like the P-51.

Again, another set of .50's programmed into IL2.

Now, rember also that the 109's nose guns lacked MG shells? Everyone was crying that the nose guns were not as effective as gondola guns? Oleg said there was no possible way, and the belting was the same for every Mk-108. Guess what? Whoops! Oleg was wrong. The nose gun beltings WERE lacking MG shells.

So, with all that now in mind, isent it possible that some aircraft, like the old P-40, MAY have stronger or weaker versions of the same gun? Very possible I would say. Oleg is only human.

Copperhead311th
09-26-2007, 01:24 PM
oh Wow i caught a couple whopers on this one.

lol

shhh (it's the 190 windskreen is porked bait.) mbetten than chicken gizzerds http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif and catches em every time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BOA_Allmenroder
09-26-2007, 01:37 PM
The problem with all the .50 cal convergence talk is the misconception that a machine gun fires a laser like line of bullets. That's simply not the case.

All machine guns have a cone of fire; so, what's being converged is the six cones, not six laser lines. That's why the real life pictures show hits all over an aircraft and not centered on one point (granted there are other things going on like G etc, but do not discount the 'cone' effect: particularly with longer bursts.)

I have no idea if due to the limitations of programming code these cones are modelled or not. If not, the same issue will arise with the Brit .303 machine guns in the BoB game.

In fact, the same issue should arise in all machine guns modelled in the game.