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Knight_Raime
10-26-2019, 03:37 AM
This is mainly a throw away thread where I talk about something that's constantly on my mind aka hero design. I am considering making a seperate thread for Jormungandr and Hitokiri to fully going into their design as this one is going to mostly talk about launch heavies and Black prior (I will briefly touch on them here though for argument sake.) I am specifically choosing heavy heros as in my opinion they're the most distinct heros in the game next to hybrids. That and they've historically been the worst group of heros for most of if not all of For honor's life so far. Finally as to why i'm specifically focusing on hero design is two fold. First is that it is a lot more complex than most people think about when it comes to things like balance. (Most strictly focus on power level,) and the second being it's one of the things the developers struggle with the most.



A brief look at hero design.

So, before I can begin talking about design intent and criticizing the design of heros in this game I need to define what it all encompasses..even if some of you already are aware. Hero design and balance are both about many things. This starts from visuals and overall feel. Does the hero look like it fits the role? Does the hero feel like it carries the concept it's attempting to carry out. Not just with Armor or sound effects but animations as well. Design/balance also involves the power curve of a hero. What's the hero like to a new player? How does that change once the hero's been mastered? What is the difference between the two and what does it mean to have mastered the hero? Etc. But arguably more important than that how does all of this translate to someone fighting against the hero? All of this and more is important when balancing/defining/designing a hero.



Intro to Heavies AKA what does it mean to be a heavy.

Now we have to talk about what the design of a Heavy hero means. From the examples in the game according to the developers heavy heros seem to be weighty heros. This can translate into a few different things from hard hitting moves to the ability to trade or the heros movement capabilities. Visually/feel wise this translates roughly into heros that look like they can take a beating. Gameplay wise this can be simple but effective capabilities aka short combos with properties attached to them. Heavies also seem to always have a stance of some kind that gives them the ability to defend better than normal and usually provides some sort of counter option. In other words these guys are supposed to be big and imposing that are hard to take down and have a variety of tools to handle most opponents.


Black Prior AKA the perfectly designed Heavy.

It has been my opinion since he has dropped and even more so compared to the other Y3 heros so far that Black prior embodies the vision of a heavy hero according to what the design intent of Heavies are. This doesn't mean other heavies do not do a good job of showcasing some aspects of heavy design. However I think BP is the only heavy that currently exists as a complete kit/design in regards to heavy design intent.

Visuals/feel of the hero.

Black Prior sports plate armor and armor is usually attributed to heavies by the community. But I feel Prior does the best here as the kind of pieces he uses and where they are placed seems perfectly reasonable given his capabilities. But there is also a bit of fantasy flair involved (like some helmet design and ornaments on the pauldrons) that still show that the game is about the fantasy. Weapon wise he sports a long sword and a kite shield. These translate so well into gameplay and animations. It really feels like he makes the most of his reach with how wide he swings and how he sits behind his shield in a turtle like stance. His animations as well are on par with some of the better ones in the game like Nobushi or Warden. Really I could gush all day about the detail with his visuals.

Translating into gameplay.

It goes further with his feel into actual gameplay. His wide sweeping hits and range visually seems quite far and wide. And this is also true in gameplay. Whenever he clips someone off to the side or in front of him it feels like it makes sense. The kite shield perfectly fits with the idea of using someone's momentum to flip the person over the hero and follow up with a slash in one fluid animation. Mechanically it makes sense to do this as well with how it counters most moves in the game. As you're not halting someone's offense like a parry but rather using the person's own weight against them.

The way he defends himself in general seems to fit quite nicely. Tri directional crushing counters and the ability to fast flow into bullwark from attacking in most instances or just from blocking itself creates a unique method of approach not Just for the person playing Black Prior but the person attempting to fight the hero as well. There isn't many heros in the game that ask you to really change up how you fight the hero just purely from a design standpoint. (as most instances of this are down to match up based capabilities instead.)

The way his offense is done is also quite nice. Yes, he does sport the two hit combo trait that all other heavies carry and he does also sport the traits slapped onto his combos. But not only are those traits smartly placed with how his kit plays but they gave him a way to combo beyond 2 hits via his bullwark slash attack. I know I talk about this quite often but the fact that he can do so combined with how he can access his flip/slash really gives the character the depth that makes his whole kit go the extra mile. As if BP was missing only one of these things his entire kit becomes very flat and direct. Finally, I do believe he's a fairly balanced hero. His biggest tool of bullwark flip has two whole instances in which he can be heavily punished for an improper read. His vulnerabilities for the most part keep his power in check so you can't just spam attempts to flip or spam out his slash.

Grievances.

No hero is 100% perfect from paper to gameplay and BP isn't an exception here. Gameplay wise while the depth of the hero exists and there is certainly a difference between someone who masters the hero versus someone who casually plays the hero, I don't believe the gap between the two instances is big enough. Granted part of this is due to a bug that allows the famous L>B>L combo. But a part of this is also due to some tools just not being great. The prime example of this being his dodge forward heavy. Short range and easy to deal with. Which segways me into my next point. As good as BP is he has a very big design flaw. He doesn't have any decent gap closing moves.

The problem with this is BP is a very oppressive hero in a 1v1 situation both offensively and defensively. But a single mistake affords any opponent the ability to merely disengage from BP. Which devalues his capabilities as a whole. They could make his mix ups 100x better and it wouldn't matter because if BP can't threaten the opponent who's trying to leave all that power is wasted. Granted this isn't an issue exclusive to BP but it's something that absolutely needs mentioning. Finally there is something to be said about his "safe bash heavy offense." I personally don't have an issue here. But I understand that at casual/entry level of play this creates a disparity between hero picks. Which while technically is a problem with the other hero's designs is still a problem worth mentioning anyway.


Conq and Warlord. AKA the wall and the worse Black Prior.

I am making these next sections shorter for two reasons. First I still have plenty to go over with the other heros and this is getting lengthy as is. And second both heros are among my least played heros. I still want to give them attention, but I fully admit there is probably subtleties to both kits that I will not know of.

Visuals/feels of the heros.

It will be a common running statement for most heros that I talk about in this thread and in the future, but I feel like for the most part the developers usually do a good job at nailing the asthetic parts of a hero (minus animations.) Conq and Warlord are no exceptions here. Conq is told as a convict and is generally given the brutal bully look. This holds up. His armor doesn't look clean or cared for. He doesn't look evil or at least stereotypical evil. but he's certainly not a do gooder. His flail and shield perfectly mirror this as well. neither are graceful tools but they do a good job pushing and beating around their target.

Warlord has the look of a seasoned Warrior/commander and this fully shows in his animations. Very good at composing himself. Very strong and competent overall. But isn't afraid to use what he has available. He sports a standard short sword and round shield but makes very good use of both thus bolstering his experience as a fighter. He actually properly holds up his shield in the stance you would take for full block if you're getting ready to defend as most of yourself as you can. And the way he meets attacks to block them is correct. The only failing here is how he over exposes himself to attack. But this is mostly forgiven considering it's a fighting game and pretty much every move in the game is visually over done to be entertaining.


Translating into gameplay.

Conq's wall design mostly holds up. His full block stance and mistimed heavies have superior block properties which combined with the sounds really nails that whole aspect of fighting a wall. This falls inline with his bash based offense as well, bludgeoning his opponent with his flail after shoving them or bopping them with his shield. The flail upper cut given from his rework and FBS in his zone were also nice touches to really nail his brutal/immovable wall feeling. Finally the infinite combo I feel is a very nice way of incorperating flail combat. Of course they could have gone a step further and potentially some how made use of the chain as a command grappling like thing. But at least the executions fill this gap for fantasy sake.

Warlord's seasoned warrior style also seems to shine through mostly. His full block offering multiple options to punish someone. Which is unique compared to other stance based moves as far as heavy heros go. Having both his crashing charge and his head butt perfectly shows Warlords willingness to use whatever means to defeat his opponent. You can almost feel his Warrior spirit. His rework made his trading capability better and gave him enhanced lights. And while neither of these things are absolute game changers I do feel that they enhance Warlord's style ever so slightly.


Grievances.

Both heros unfortunately fail to be a complete hero as far as heavy design goes. But for different reasons. Conqueror's problem is really two fold. Him being so bash heavy isn't actually the problem. the problem is it doesn't really lead into anything. As his infinite has basically no actual use in any situation. And because of that and his charged heavies having basically no use it over emphasizes his shield rather than having an equal balance between both parts of his arsenal. His other flaw involves mechanics. Due to his kit's traits and mechanics he has several option selects that are not only required to be a master of the kit but make it massively imbalanced in favor of most other forms of offense. He also lacks basic feinting for literally no reason.

Warlord fails because he's simply not effective. He nearly has all the tools in his kit somewhere to further flesh out his identity. But nothing really works for him. Full block is basically a dead tool and is only really useful for stalling out or gaining access to an undodgeable that has zero threat. His crashing charge was rightfully nerfed but could have easily been mixed into his locked on state to further push that identity.
In short Conqueror fails from a mechanical standpoint while Warlord fails from a gameplay/feel support. It's not fun to master or play as/against either hero.


Shugoki AKA why trading as an identity doesn't work.


Visual's/feel of the hero.

Shugoki was the first heavy that I had a real interest in after I ditched Conq after they fixed his infinite. I was intrigued by him the moment I saw his trailer as he had a big scary stick and a demon looking mask. But I ultimately went for Conq first because flails are such cool weapons. Anyway, I feel like They pretty much nailed this part for shugoki. All though making a character look big and scary isn't particularly difficult. But really that's the only positive I can give to the hero in this department. His animations are not spectacular. While the stick is a big whooping stick I don't feel like they really captured the feeling that was boasted in his trailer. You kind of just smack people. Shaolin has a stick and he makes far more interesting use of it. (also helps that the stick actually moves and wobbles but still.) The problem with this is immediately i'm having to look towards gameplay in order to make up for the shortcomings.


Translating to gameplay.

Shugoki has been all over the place with his design. Both his initial release and his rework has been about trading. One being more passive than the other. Both have their issues. But I will focus on that in the next section. So what did they get right? Well, I feel like the sounds of the hero are spectacular. The bop noise of his weapon to his vocalness with his lines really add to that towering powerful feel you get from the visuals. The embrace move and lovingly called golf swing also compound onto this. Goki very much feels like a "respect me and my space" hero that is very sumo wrestler like. He is very good at stalling out gameplay. I also have to mention feats. And yes this is the first time i'm bringing them up.
Shugoki has two feats that I really feel adds to his character and his gameplay. That being rock steady and his tier 4 that knocks people over with throws and weapon hits. They both really build on the idea that this is a really big dude and he's REALLY going to mess you up if he touches you.


Grievances.

There's no sugar coating it here. Shugoki is a failed hero concept through and through. He's all about trading. This by itself negates a lot of offense. And his kit has zero way to deal with the one offense that consistently works against him, bash based offense. Again like with BP this isn't strictly a Goki issue but it's very important to note. He also has no way to threaten someone who spaces or attempts to leave even post rework. These things on their own already make the hero unfun to play as or against. But it doesn't stop there.

Goki's own offense is terrible outside of trading. His unblockables pose zero threat because of how easy they are to interrupt and avoid. His hug is such a dead give away unless you're perfectly delaying your soft feint every single time. And he gets severely punished for attempting the soft feint at all despite the payoff not being rewarding. It's not like his launch kit was any better. You basically hugged walls while critical fishing for a GB attempt you'd get for free by trading with your passive super armor in order to net a free wall splat for a OHK to anyone. You always only attempted to attack when your armor was up. Meaning you stood around even more. And while rock steady fits him thematically it's very imbalanced as is. In short Shugoki is a poorly designed hero that even if improved to actually be effective wouldn't be fun because fighting a hero that's meant to attack into you to do any damage just isn't fun design. This doesn't even factor in how they'res basically no difference between a new shugoki and a master shugoki.


Jorgmungandr and Hitokiri AKA are these even heavies.

Unlike the rest of the heros I just mentioned I will not be doing a section by section with these heros in this thread. As there is far too much to say about both heros both positive and negative that I simply don't think i'd be doing either hero justice by making small sections about them. Also I happen to have far more experience with both heros compared to the 3 base game Heavies. So there is more i'd like to say. So for now i'll just give a sampler for each hero.

Hitokiri.

Full stop, was going to be the hero I played over Black Prior. I'm 100% in love with the hero from an asthetic standpoint. One of the only Samurai heros that features metal at all with armor. Hitokiri is a 100% fantasy made hero but still some how manages to feel grounded in existence. I like everyone else was side eyeing a Samurai with an Axe. But I love it. I really do. It's still 100% made up but I have to give props. I don't typically care for Axe based weaponry but I really do enjoy every bit about it. However as a hero she's very disappointing. She's not at all what I imagined her to play as. It very much feels like she was meant to play one way but plays an unintended way. She's incomplete and part of this is due to how her feats make up half her kit. Without her unique feats she'd feel even more barren.

Jorgmungandr.

While i'd describe Hitokiri in a single word as "disappointing" it's not the word i'd use to describe this hero. I think a more appropriate word would be frustrating. Nearly everything about this hero is straight up annoying. From the half arsed back story being "I'm thor but not really because snek lived instead" to the very VERY underwhelming animations. Gameplay wise he's very polarizing. I REALLY love the sounds of the hero and even the voices. I REALLY hate failing to dodge a single punch and being forced to turtle against a kit that has no way to threaten me in most instances.
I REALLY love nut slamming someone. I REALLY hate being forced to nut slam in order to get any worthwhile damage in. etc. But I think the most frustrating thing for me when it comes to this hero is that it really feels like the developers didn't learn at all from Y1 dlc hero design and base game hero design (to an extent.) He practically Mirrors Current centurion's identity and problems. but instead of bullying your health he bullies your stamina bar. I'm fully aware there are distinct differences that set these kits apart. But I can't shake the feeling that this feels like the devs attempting to redo a big payout hero rather than bringing a truly unique design to the table. I'd rather have another failed mechanic like traps than a rehashing of a current concept.


Closing thoughts.

You will notice that I have left out Jiang Jun. I did so because I feel like the Wu-lin faction generally goes against the games base design philosophies. Wether this is good or bad is up to the individual. I personally applaud the attempt to make truly unique heros in a vacuum regardless of how well said concept ends up panning out. But regardless I don't think it's really fair to judge JJ to the standards of normal heavy design and that sentiment can be extended to the rest of the faction. I probably will also not do a comparison design wise to heavy design for the upcoming hero for the same reason. Maybe if I end up sticking around here long enough i'll do an entire thread on the Wu-lin both on how I feel about the heros and wether or not I think adding in another faction was really worth doing.

Anyway, i've typed enough for now. I sat down about 2 hours ago to write this up. I just want to thank everyone who bothers to read this. And if it some how was an entertaining read for anyone then I am most greatful. I am planning on doing a seperate thread for Hito and Jorge at some point. But if you have any interest in me doing this sort of thing either for the other hero types or just for a specific hero(s) in general please do let me know. I can't promise that I will. But knowing the interest is there might be enough to make me dedicate more of my time writing on the forum again.

Have a good day/evening/night~

CanadianSoupMan
10-26-2019, 10:48 AM
"This can translate into a few different things from hard hitting moves to the ability to trade or the heros movement capabilities. Visually/feel wise this translates roughly into heros that look like they can take a beating"

but also

"Shugoki is a failed hero concept through and through. He's all about trading."

What? lol

This is contradicting your initial thesis. It also is not the core issue with Shugoki. He just lacks a deep enough kit to where people would be less inclined to want to trade through light spam. Regardless he is still the embodiment of a heavy with the largest health pool, hardest hitting attacks, and some incredibly hard to evade attacks. Vortiger has insane mobility, was made for fast lights and bashes and you're preaching him as a heavy and throwing brother Goki under the bus? OK.

"His hug is such a dead give away unless you're perfectly delaying your soft feint every single time."

but actually

"...basically no difference between a new shugoki and a master shugoki."

New Shugokis spam lights and do nothing else.

Good shugokis frontset their offence to trade consistently and execute the soft feint perfectly or just wall splat for the grab. They also do good OOS pressure. They also parry lights and punish you, etc.

You are clearly biased to prior which to me is the worst incarnation of a heavy as he ushered in the age of lightning quick spam. He easily feels like one of the most hybrid heavies in the game. Sakura even puts out more of a heavy vibe.

To me heavies are Goki, Warlord, and Lawbringer. Big chunky armoured machines that hit hard like a wrecking ball with bashes and heavies but don't build their entire kit around bashes and lights.

Knight_Raime
10-26-2019, 04:51 PM
"This can translate into a few different things from hard hitting moves to the ability to trade or the heros movement capabilities. Visually/feel wise this translates roughly into heros that look like they can take a beating"

but also

"Shugoki is a failed hero concept through and through. He's all about trading."

What? lol

This is contradicting your initial thesis. It also is not the core issue with Shugoki. He just lacks a deep enough kit to where people would be less inclined to want to trade through light spam. Regardless he is still the embodiment of a heavy with the largest health pool, hardest hitting attacks, and some incredibly hard to evade attacks. Vortiger has insane mobility, was made for fast lights and bashes and you're preaching him as a heavy and throwing brother Goki under the bus? OK.

"His hug is such a dead give away unless you're perfectly delaying your soft feint every single time."

but actually

"...basically no difference between a new shugoki and a master shugoki."

New Shugokis spam lights and do nothing else.

Good shugokis frontset their offence to trade consistently and execute the soft feint perfectly or just wall splat for the grab. They also do good OOS pressure. They also parry lights and punish you, etc.

You are clearly biased to prior which to me is the worst incarnation of a heavy as he ushered in the age of lightning quick spam. He easily feels like one of the most hybrid heavies in the game. Sakura even puts out more of a heavy vibe.

To me heavies are Goki, Warlord, and Lawbringer. Big chunky armoured machines that hit hard like a wrecking ball with bashes and heavies but don't build their entire kit around bashes and lights.

"What? lol."

I know it's a wall of text but I was very clear with my specific choice of words. I said Shugoki is a failed HERO concept. This does not mean there are not aspects about him that are of heavy quality. I clearly explain why he's a badly designed hero. So no, it's not contradicting my thesis at all.

"He just lacks a deep enough kit to where people would be less inclined to want to trade through light spam."

Making shugoki's mix ups better wouldn't change the fact that nearly all of his moves have armor and encourage you to trade with them via baiting failed parry attempts. His main mix up of hug has armor both in letting the heavy fly or soft feinting into hug. So your claim is false. Trading is the core of his kit. And trading as an identity is a poor concept as i've already explained.

"New Shugokis spam lights and do nothing else."

Delaying your attacks is not something that is specific to Shugoki. It's a common concept that is more of a difference between a new/casual player and a seasoned/competitive player. So while delaying in itself is a sign of mastery in some regards it's not a difference that is specific to someone who masters Shugoki. An easy example of a hero specific difference that shows mastery is a black prior who knows how to properly take advantage of his fast flow mechanics. Or if you want a non BP specific example It would be Tiandi's flow like water mechanic.

"You are clearly biased to prior which to me is the worst incarnation of a heavy as he ushered in the age of lightning quick spam."

Claims I have a bias. Disregards everything said in the entire thread because hates spam. okay buddy. And yes I am biased. But if you look at every hero I mentioned here I stated positives about all of them both in what I like about them and what I think qualities each hero has that shows off parts of heavy design.

Thanks for reading regardless though.

We.the.North
10-26-2019, 05:22 PM
With all the standardization going around theses days, "HEAVY" is just a fancy word to describe a hero gaining more renown by holding a point with MUCH better perks and survival feats.

Every hero in this game are just about the same, with 2-3 "special move" that makes them unique. Everything else is just moving some numbers around.

CanadianSoupMan
10-26-2019, 05:25 PM
"I know it's a wall of text but I was very clear with my specific choice of words"

Right I forgot people on the internet can never be wrong, they're all master scholars of the English language. I am not even going to try to have a discussion and reach common ground with this condescending response.

Sorry to make you have to type more than you already did

Knight_Raime
10-26-2019, 05:38 PM
With all the standardization going around theses days, "HEAVY" is just a fancy word to describe a hero gaining more renown by holding a point with MUCH better perks and survival feats.

Every hero in this game are just about the same, with 2-3 "special move" that makes them unique. Everything else is just moving some numbers around.

While I sympathize with this statement and find some truth in it this doesn't really add anything to the discussion at hand.


"I know it's a wall of text but I was very clear with my specific choice of words"

Right I forgot people on the internet can never be wrong, they're all master scholars of the English language. I am not even going to try to have a discussion and reach common ground with this condescending response.

Sorry to make you have to type more than you already did

I mean yes it is condecending. But that doesn't change the truth behind my response. I didn't say anywhere in my thread that Shugoki wasn't a heavy/didn't showcase qualities of a heavy hero. He could have been a perfect showcase of what heavies can be like. That wouldn't change my point that Shugoki as a hero is poorly designed.

But if you want to just dismiss my post and my response to you entirely just because I was a little harsh with you that's 100% a-ok. Just maybe next time you see a thread think before you post. If you can't be bothered to carry a discussion because the person might be doing something you dislike then just don't respond to begin with. As you're wasting both my time and yours.

Vendelkin
10-26-2019, 05:54 PM
Just to be frank ramie.

Youre the one wasting your own time. Sphere of influence. He hasnt forced you to write those extensive responses, and he is also not responsible for your choosing to respond to him, at all, let alone in such lengthy fashion.

Also id agree with him. Black prior is not at all my ideal heavy. His design is good, but counterattacks dont fit my perception of heavy in the way he employs them, and light focus doesnt either. I also personally like the animation for BW counter in 1v1. But it pisses me off in 4v4. It is honestly the most powerful full block in the game, but has LESS downsides actually than some other full blocks. I get people still call him balanced, and he may be, but his anti gank play still pisses me off sometimes, especially because of his fast recoveries.

Fast recovery. Wide agile sweeps. Even a few high speed dodge catchers. Imo none of those things should comprise a heavy.

Roles have almost no meaning now in this game beyond renown, but to me heavy usually means big health pool, low stamina tanks. That manipulate the battlefield not by speed, but by their ability to shove people around. Trades are this games closest version to outlast/tank style. They may be a bad mechanic but imo they are part of what should be heavy identity.

PhoenixSOS
10-26-2019, 06:05 PM
shugoki does not have the largest health pool in the game and as of right now its about 4th or 5th. Furthermore, the core concept of shugoki as a big mofo that will outtrade you is nullified by gb vulnerability, which negates the trade threat part of his kit bc realistically he cannot heavy on red like hito can so can only use lights to trade and in a game where mostly every character has either a dodge attack, unblockable, hyper armor, crushing counter, or all of the above, shugoki's kit falls remarkably flat, and from a competitive standpoint is worse than the original shugoki because of passive hyper armor removal (which should've gone no doubt but it hurt his competitive viability).

Knight_Raime
10-26-2019, 06:13 PM
Just to be frank ramie.

Youre the one wasting your own time. Sphere of influence. He hasnt forced you to write those extensive responses, and he is also not responsible for your choosing to respond to him, at all, let alone in such lengthy fashion.

Also id agree with him. Black prior is not at all my ideal heavy. His design is good, but counterattacks dont fit my perception of heavy in the way he employs them, and light focus doesnt either. I also personally like the animation for BW counter in 1v1. But it pisses me off in 4v4. It is honestly the most powerful full block in the game, but has LESS downsides actually than some other full blocks. I get people still call him balanced, and he may be, but his anti gank play still pisses me off sometimes, especially because of his fast recoveries.

Fast recovery. Wide agile sweeps. Even a few high speed dodge catchers. Imo none of those things should comprise a heavy.

Roles have almost no meaning now in this game beyond renown, but to me heavy usually means big health pool, low stamina tanks. That manipulate the battlefield not by speed, but by their ability to shove people around. Trades are this games closest version to outlast/tank style. They may be a bad mechanic but imo they are part of what should be heavy identity.

Him responding in such a fashion is by deffinition wasting time for both of us. But i'm not going to argue about another poster with you as that isn't the topic of discussion. Stay on topic please.

"Black prior is not at all my ideal heavy."

It's nice that you put that on the table. But it doesn't change that he does infact have the qualities of what a heavy hero is. I'm not sure how his flip doesn't fit counter attacking as a heavy. Would be cool if you could elaborate on that. I also don't see how his kit is focused at all on lights. Unless you're trying to refer to the L>B>L thing. Of which I agree it sucks that it exists. But it's existence is not based in design but rather a bug. So it's fine to dislike it (as I do too,) and count it as a negative for the hero as a whole (which I do as well) but I would say it's unfair to use that as ammo to say his design as a heavy is poor.

"but has LESS downsides actually than some other full blocks."

He takes full damage and is locked in place after he begins his slash. This means if he decides to flip near an enemy and they don't get caught by attacking into the flip they can put serious damage on him. He also gets GBed for miss reading a flip attempt. He's not GB immune while in the stance nor does he exist the stance so quickly that he can't be punished. Warlord actually leaves FBS the fastest. So i'm not sure how he's got less downsides.

"Fast recovery. Wide agile sweeps. Even a few high speed dodge catchers. Imo none of those things should comprise a heavy."

None of his recoveries are particularly fast beyond using fast flow and his neutral bash. His neutral bash is consistently punishable on reaction in most cases if you have a dodge attack though. And his fast flow is punishable with a GB if you see him doing it a lot. I don't see why wide angles are not a heavy thing. If anything they usually sport the biggest weaponry so it kind of fits.

"but to me heavy usually means big health pool, low stamina tanks. That manipulate the battlefield not by speed, but by their ability to shove people around. Trades are this games closest version to outlast/tank style. They may be a bad mechanic but imo they are part of what should be heavy identity."

These are qualities that can attribute to a heavy design but are not the only things that do so. Trading specifically isn't a poor mechanic and that wasn't my point. Having trading as an identity is a poor overall hero design. That was my point. If they leaned a different way into stalling for shugoki he'd be a better designed hero that fits with a heavy identity. Overall what you listed here is more of a descripter of what you'd find that defines a tank in role based games. Heavies can be tanky. But heavies are not inherently tanks.

Knight_Raime
10-26-2019, 06:18 PM
shugoki does not have the largest health pool in the game and as of right now its about 4th or 5th. Furthermore, the core concept of shugoki as a big mofo that will outtrade you is nullified by gb vulnerability, which negates the trade threat part of his kit bc realistically he cannot heavy on red like hito can so can only use lights to trade and in a game where mostly every character has either a dodge attack, unblockable, hyper armor, crushing counter, or all of the above, shugoki's kit falls remarkably flat, and from a competitive standpoint is worse than the original shugoki because of passive hyper armor removal (which should've gone no doubt but it hurt his competitive viability).

Just because you can counter some of his mix ups with a GB attempt doesn't change his design at all being around trading. I'm not sure how one makes this leap of logic unless i'm misunderstanding your point here.

Pufferwockey
10-26-2019, 06:56 PM
huh. I dont play heavies much, but I always felt pretty confident when using a shug to go after a conq

EvoX.
10-27-2019, 03:02 AM
I've actually never ever seen someone utilize Conqueror's defense to its full potential in practice. In the most recent high level duel I've watched involving Conq, the player mostly just used the charge + cancel option select, since it's nearly unpunishable. Everyone I've watched before that was the same - his playstyle in high level involves a lot of staring and his bash, while option selects weren't utilized much. This somewhat makes me conclude his defense is highly theoretical, therefore overrated. It exists, but if nobody has dedicated the time to master it, is it really that good?

Knight_Raime
10-27-2019, 03:32 AM
I've actually never ever seen someone utilize Conqueror's defense to its full potential in practice. In the most recent high level duel I've watched involving Conq, the player mostly just used the charge + cancel option select, since it's nearly unpunishable. Everyone I've watched before that was the same - his playstyle in high level involves a lot of staring and his bash, while option selects weren't utilized much. This somewhat makes me conclude his defense is highly theoretical, therefore overrated. It exists, but if nobody has dedicated the time to master it, is it really that good?

To my knowledge the option selects he has are:

-Miss timing a parry attempt to get a superior block heavy
-throwing a heavy on wrong timing to beat feint into gb
-zone option select
-dodging into attacks for the superior block
-Holding charge on light timing to attempt to parry
-feinting an immediate miss timed heavy into full block to beat feint into attack based mix ups
-start charging but then dodge out immediately for either bash or superior block

I feel like I might be missing one or two. The most egregious and ones that needs addressing the most is all the ones that are linked to the action of charging.
Beyond that the only other abhorrent thing about conq's style is how he can flicker an attack from 2-3 different spots at once.

The reason you don't see this level of Conq abuse these days is because the few people who actually bothered to master such stuff have quit playing. I think Legion unchained is the only one who still plays and i'm not even sure if he plays Conq anymore. Most times i've seen him on clutche's stream he's playing some other hero. But AFAIK Legion was considered the best Conq in the game back when Conq was more present.

EDIT: If you want you can always hit up user "MemelordThornbush" on the comp reddit about conq. I don't know how good he is with conq as i've never actually seen him play at all. But he was a conq main and he's done quite a few threads/video guides about conq option selecting.

AmonDarkGod
10-27-2019, 03:41 AM
I've actually never ever seen someone utilize Conqueror's defense to its full potential in practice. In the most recent high level duel I've watched involving Conq, the player mostly just used the charge + cancel option select, since it's nearly unpunishable. Everyone I've watched before that was the same - his playstyle in high level involves a lot of staring and his bash, while option selects weren't utilized much. This somewhat makes me conclude his defense is highly theoretical, therefore overrated. It exists, but if nobody has dedicated the time to master it, is it really that good?

Yea very few people play Conq correctly. For instance Conq is the true heby on red Hero since he has nearly no GB vulnerability at his heavies :p

EvoX.
10-27-2019, 04:05 AM
Legion is a BP main now, regularly spars with Setmyx, quite enjoyable to watch, really. Unfortunately there are no Conq mains in the highest level, so I can only watch how the hero is played when he's picked randomly - a very rare occurance. And I've watched Thornbush's guide videos, it's just that I haven't seen this supposedly amazing defense being used how it's hyped up to be, and if it really has an impact even against the best players. I'll remain sceptical on that one.


For instance Conq is the true heby on red Hero since he has nearly no GB vulnerability at his heavies

Hah, there you go defending your Kiri again.

Sweaty_Sock
10-27-2019, 04:06 AM
Dont forget conqs amazingly busted feat combos of heal on minion kill + heal on block coupled with his zone all-guarding minions

Trading CAN work but it needed to be like old shugo, with his HA down he took more damage and could NOT trade, you had to time correctly, and guard your HA before making an attack run.And its for that character only, not to be thrown onto all and sundry. Players would look for a gb to remove HA, or smart players could use a second guaranteed light to beat you out (so you as the trading party would have to throw your attack earlier to avoid hit 2 staggering you). it was risk vs reward, not just 'throw attacks and hope they try use faster attacks so they eat a heavy'

In terms of characters - the word for Jorm is 'fail' - even IF he was perfectly designed the idea of taking stamina away as his entire identity is bonkers. Jorm reminds me of Jar Jar Binks - if you intentionally design a character to be annoying, then even if you succeed you have succeeded in making an annoying character. Jorm can't work in the current format and needs a massive rethink.

In regards to shugos feats this is exactly where the game is getting... disconnected? Rock steady really only works on revenge, OOS and wall splats. All kits pretty much knock you over (jorm, valk etc.). In regards to his levl 4 feat... it doesn't knock down people with HA on... so the biggest heavy loses to anyone who just throws out heavies... better yet on death its wasted, so you end up in fun scenarios where jorm or hito can lvl 4 ult you, yours fails to do anything, and then you die, losing your feat.

I have been crying about shugo since rework, bad direction for the game and I WISH i was wrong... they have gone and lathered HA on everything and basically made more traders that trade better...without the risk.

jortakk
10-27-2019, 02:27 PM
There is one gripe I have with heavy designs in general and that is they should have high HP AND high damage... Like how is that fair for other heroes with much less raw stats such as assassins. And even if their mixup potential might be less, they can still pull ahead thanks to punishes.

Knight_Raime
10-27-2019, 05:55 PM
Dont forget conqs amazingly busted feat combos of heal on minion kill + heal on block coupled with his zone all-guarding minions

Trading CAN work but it needed to be like old shugo, with his HA down he took more damage and could NOT trade, you had to time correctly, and guard your HA before making an attack run.And its for that character only, not to be thrown onto all and sundry. Players would look for a gb to remove HA, or smart players could use a second guaranteed light to beat you out (so you as the trading party would have to throw your attack earlier to avoid hit 2 staggering you). it was risk vs reward, not just 'throw attacks and hope they try use faster attacks so they eat a heavy'

In terms of characters - the word for Jorm is 'fail' - even IF he was perfectly designed the idea of taking stamina away as his entire identity is bonkers. Jorm reminds me of Jar Jar Binks - if you intentionally design a character to be annoying, then even if you succeed you have succeeded in making an annoying character. Jorm can't work in the current format and needs a massive rethink.

In regards to shugos feats this is exactly where the game is getting... disconnected? Rock steady really only works on revenge, OOS and wall splats. All kits pretty much knock you over (jorm, valk etc.). In regards to his levl 4 feat... it doesn't knock down people with HA on... so the biggest heavy loses to anyone who just throws out heavies... better yet on death its wasted, so you end up in fun scenarios where jorm or hito can lvl 4 ult you, yours fails to do anything, and then you die, losing your feat.

I have been crying about shugo since rework, bad direction for the game and I WISH i was wrong... they have gone and lathered HA on everything and basically made more traders that trade better...without the risk.

Eh. They nerfed body count. If they nerf heal on block as well then it will be fine. he'd still be harder to dislodge from midlane compared to most heros but it wouldn't be nearly as bad.

I massively disagree. It wasn't fun to play as or against old goki waiting for your armor to come back up to attempt to do anything. It also made punishes against shugoki a lot more damaging because if his armor was up he'd ignore any kind of hit stun allowing you to net follow ups that would normally not be guaranteed. Nothing is wrong with trading as a concept. The problem with Goki is that he's meant to trade. It doesn't matter if they "balanced" his trading capabilities. It wouldn't matter if they some how found a way for his armor to be effective and balanced. It's never going to be fun to fight someone that denies most forms of offense.

Jorge is like shugoki in that both concepts are not healthy for the game and wouldn't be healthy for the game even if the games base state was much better off. All that can be done to either hero is to be balanced to a point where it lessens the grievances for both sides of play. The issue with rock steady is that it like kensei's unblockable feat completely break normal rules of combat. Even if rock steady only protected you from revenge parries/OOS parries it still would be annoying. i'd rather it be repurposed to give some other kind of effect that gives the big imposing feel but without letting you get punished less for screwing up.

Even if Shugoki's current rework is a fail it's still far better than his old rework. Maybe you enjoyed playing passively but I didn't. And going back to his old self wouldn't make him any less of a trader at heart. Just instead of attempting to trade while attacking you just stand around waiting for someone to attack into you so you get a free GB.

Sweaty_Sock
10-28-2019, 09:55 AM
Eh. They nerfed body count. If they nerf heal on block as well then it will be fine. he'd still be harder to dislodge from midlane compared to most heros but it wouldn't be nearly as bad.

I massively disagree. It wasn't fun to play as or against old goki waiting for your armor to come back up to attempt to do anything. It also made punishes against shugoki a lot more damaging because if his armor was up he'd ignore any kind of hit stun allowing you to net follow ups that would normally not be guaranteed. Nothing is wrong with trading as a concept. The problem with Goki is that he's meant to trade. It doesn't matter if they "balanced" his trading capabilities. It wouldn't matter if they some how found a way for his armor to be effective and balanced. It's never going to be fun to fight someone that denies most forms of offense.

Jorge is like shugoki in that both concepts are not healthy for the game and wouldn't be healthy for the game even if the games base state was much better off. All that can be done to either hero is to be balanced to a point where it lessens the grievances for both sides of play. The issue with rock steady is that it like kensei's unblockable feat completely break normal rules of combat. Even if rock steady only protected you from revenge parries/OOS parries it still would be annoying. i'd rather it be repurposed to give some other kind of effect that gives the big imposing feel but without letting you get punished less for screwing up.

Even if Shugoki's current rework is a fail it's still far better than his old rework. Maybe you enjoyed playing passively but I didn't. And going back to his old self wouldn't make him any less of a trader at heart. Just instead of attempting to trade while attacking you just stand around waiting for someone to attack into you so you get a free GB.

I didnt turtle with shugo, anymore than I do now. what I meant was that there was something good in the idea of hyperarmour being 'used' - having to think if you had already traded when you engage & what you will have to do differently now its down. I hated old light into trade/headbutt. I hated 1 hit kill deamons. I hated GB in recovery. But the good seemed gone with the bad?

Realistically the more I look at it its the lack of GB vulnerability that's hurting the most. If you cant out speed it, and you cant bait GB it, then you have to basically turtle it...

EDIT: I think rocksteady on musha needs to be split from shugo, shugo should be made more like thickblooded but stop more types of knockdowns (passive, CD timer)

Knight_Raime
10-28-2019, 04:29 PM
I didnt turtle with shugo, anymore than I do now. what I meant was that there was something good in the idea of hyperarmour being 'used' - having to think if you had already traded when you engage & what you will have to do differently now its down. I hated old light into trade/headbutt. I hated 1 hit kill deamons. I hated GB in recovery. But the good seemed gone with the bad?

Realistically the more I look at it its the lack of GB vulnerability that's hurting the most. If you cant out speed it, and you cant bait GB it, then you have to basically turtle it...

EDIT: I think rocksteady on musha needs to be split from shugo, shugo should be made more like thickblooded but stop more types of knockdowns (passive, CD timer)

Except You'd still have people waiting to actually attack if they had to wait for their armor to come back. It's a concept that just doesn't work for a fighting game.
The more realistic balance for armor is to limit where it goes and how easily it can be used to trade (and also never ever ever have super armor on moves.)
To which the devs have done a mostly good job with. The only 2 places armor is currently an issue is on goki and hitokiri.
Feel free to correct me but again aside from those two heros I can't think of someone who has armor on a low GB vulnerability attack.

As far as Rock steady goes the only way I think it could stick around as is effect wise would be to limit it to parries or throws. In cases where moves physically trip someone (Jorge, valk, hitokiri, centurion) they should always work regardless of what rocksteady does. Because feats that negate kit specific aspects is poor balancing.

Sweaty_Sock
10-29-2019, 04:53 AM
Except You'd still have people waiting to actually attack if they had to wait for their armor to come back. It's a concept that just doesn't work for a fighting game.
The more realistic balance for armor is to limit where it goes and how easily it can be used to trade (and also never ever ever have super armor on moves.)
To which the devs have done a mostly good job with. The only 2 places armor is currently an issue is on goki and hitokiri.
Feel free to correct me but again aside from those two heros I can't think of someone who has armor on a low GB vulnerability attack.

As far as Rock steady goes the only way I think it could stick around as is effect wise would be to limit it to parries or throws. In cases where moves physically trip someone (Jorge, valk, hitokiri, centurion) they should always work regardless of what rocksteady does. Because feats that negate kit specific aspects is poor balancing.

Yes but you could do soemthing like have a move that reactivates HA, something aggressive. Or you could say 'once per chain' or you could say 'once HA absorbes a hit it drops off you character for the remaindr of the attack, or you could have HA that only worked against lights, and another that worked on both lights and heavies. The issue is its just 'HA'. The idea hasnt been expanded, or evolved on, just devolved. Like shugos HA on light shouldnt stop heavies. Hito should lose HA for her chain if she engaged using it as her opener etc. Not saying these are the BEST ideas but at least you'd have some differences between what you can & cant trade with/against.

RE: rock steady but it should effect other feats, like jorms ult.