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View Full Version : OT: On This Day...Hitler Survived Assasination Attempt



Realjambo
07-20-2006, 01:00 PM
I love this bit of the BBC website, check out what hapenned on your birthday for example, but today, well, Hitler survived his assasination attempt.

Who knows what may have hapenned had he not - perhaps the Kaleuns would have got the new fast boats they were promised?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/2..._3505000/3505014.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/20/newsid_3505000/3505014.stm)

Kaleun1961
07-20-2006, 01:10 PM
It is always interesting to discuss the "what might have beens."

I am of the opinion that the officers who planned the July 20th plot were somewhat deluded. I say deluded because they were operating under the assumption that the Western Allies would have been open to a negotiated truce on the Western front while Germany could continue to operate against the Russians.

I doubt that the Western Allies would have betrayed Russia that way. At best, all that the Germans could have hoped for at that point would be for the Western Allies to grab German real estate before the Russians got it. They could have achieved this by opening their lines in the West so that the Anglo-American armies could have had a free ride into Germany. Even then, would they have told the Russians to halt at Germany's border or would they have still partitioned Germany in two? If they had opened their Western front to the Allies, what would have happened on the Eastern front? Would those armies have suddenly to surrender to Russia? How would they have been supplied with Germany now in Western hands?

Right, now that I have opened the subject, let's hear from other members here.

Celeon999
07-20-2006, 02:05 PM
I have read a good book about this from the famous Hitler biograph Joachim Fest.

Fest comes to the same conclusion , at least in some of the points.

He said that the whole operation was doomed right from the point when Hitler survived the blast and that the participants could have noticed the signs but havent.

At least Stauffenberg hasnt or simply didnt wanted to acknowledge that all was lost as the message of HitlerÔ┬┤s survival made its way through germany.

He refused to accept that the radio broadcast was true. In his opinion Hitler simply couldnt have survived such a powerful blast that happened right next to him.

He was telephoning throughout germany and france without rest , desperatly trying to hold everything together and keep the participants in line that already started to save their own heads in fear of the someone tracing everything back to them or someone just saying their names in connection to this.

In France it worked out as planned.

Its too much to explain it all here but one of the most important points already worked out

All SS and Gestapo men in Paris were arrested.



But the most important parts werent carried out anymore.

- The arresting of Heinrich Himmler, Goebbels and other high ranking party members

- The arrest and disarment of the SS (was already in progress)

- The occupation of all concentration camps by wehrmacht units

- The complete take-over of all govermental key positions with the use of the state emergency laws (was already in progess)


Even the people around him started to abandon all hope but he was still proceeding.

Finally everything was over as General Witzleben who secretly supported him arrived at the Bendler Block in full rage , calling him an amateur and telling him that Hitler is definitly alive.

He suggested that he should shot himself immidiatly as there is no way to cover everything up anymore and that he cant expect any help from him anymore.

A few hours later some people from the SS arrived and it came to short shoot-out as Stauffenberg refused to give up. He was slightly injured and fortificated himself with some other in his bureau and started to burn documents.

Names mostly, trying to save as much involved people as possible by destroying all evidence that might reveal their names.

His secretary was trying to phone his family over and over again because he wanted to say goodbye to them but had no luck.

Messervy
07-20-2006, 06:05 PM
I don`t concider myself as a nazi sympathizer, but there is something about Germany in WW II that keeps me on "hight".
Never in a History of a mankind had a nation been more deluded, but yet defied the obvious and inevitable outcome with succha self punishing determination to stare directly at a jaws of a defeat but still carry on the "nazional geist" to a bitter end.

There is nothing glorious in it, but it`s very educational.

When...and ONLY when....you are 110% sure you are right.....you should fight like they did.

P.S. For all those who want challenge me.....I am talking about loosers that I respect more than those who win a trophy.
Arnhem and the Red Devils, Mannerheim and his ragged band in Finnland, The Poles in Westerplatte and then in Warsaw uprising, the French in Vercors....

Those are the ones that can teach us the trade of war in earnest!

Kaleun1961
07-20-2006, 07:18 PM
By 1943, most Germans had an inkling that were in trouble. Stalingrad in Russia, then the surrender of the army in Africa cost the Germans about 500,000 men, trained veterans they could not afford to lose. The Allied air forces were beginning to bomb them and the U-boats were on the defensive. There was no way they were going to win after reversals like that.

Because the Allies were pressing for Germany's unconditional surrender, Germany had not much choice other than total capitulation. No way Hitler was going to allow that while he still had significant forces in the field. He might yet force a stalemate. However, there was no way the Allies were going to allow a Nazi regime to stay in power. Thus there was the fight to the bitter end.

blastomatic1759
07-20-2006, 08:37 PM
yeah , i like the what ifs. just think about the Bismark, i read somewhere , that the carrier responsible for launching the aircraft that damaged the Bismarks steering was sighted by a Uboat that was out of Torps. just think what "IF" that Uboat would have been armed.

mariuszj1939
07-21-2006, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by Celeon999:

He said that the whole operation was doomed right from the point when Hitler survived the blast and that the participants could have noticed the signs but havent.

At least Stauffenberg hasnt or simply didnt wanted to acknowledge that all was lost as the message of HitlerÔ┬┤s survival made its way through germany.



Have you seen present view of "Die Wolfschanze" ?
Unfortunately it's in Polish only :

http://mazury.info.pl/gierloz/index.html

Place where Hitler spent a lot of time Germans destroyed in 24/25.01.1945.
Approx they needed 8 tons of TNT per one bunker.
Mines picked up till 1955. Finally found 54.000 ! Red Army checked (against mines)
72 ha of forest and 52 ha of ground !

Celeon999
07-21-2006, 03:59 AM
@ Mariusjz

I have a DVD about that topic and it also covers the Wolfschanze and Hitlers secret new HQ that was supposed to replace it and was already in construction.



Alert ! Lot of pics will follow.


Here we have Rochus Misch, Hitlers personal telephone guy visiting his former workplace.


http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8753/cap517qd3.jpg
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4089/cap518lt6.jpg


A german and a polish hobby historican (both working for the "Berlin underworlds foundation" discovered this strange hole in the ground of a forest near the german/polish border in 1994.

They thought it was just another of the many natural caves there although they were searching for old bunkers ....


http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2953/cap519ws5.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6011/cap520xy5.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/9779/cap521nk7.jpg


But then they found this down there, kilometers of tunnels and lots of steelbeton structures.


http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3382/cap522ff7.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/8529/cap527gc9.jpg

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/351/cap531pc7.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6003/cap534xw5.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6533/cap533ca4.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9343/cap536cz6.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2277/cap537ua0.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/7151/cap538qu0.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/7121/cap539rf7.jpg
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4945/cap544ts9.jpg


After some research they found out that the red army already found this installation in 1945 but never had much interest for it and so it was forgotten. Only the population of a small town nearby had knowledge of its existence.

They found out that this is in fact "Codename : Brise" from which documents existed but its location was not known.

HitlerÔ┬┤s super secret brand new (a-bomb secure)headquarters supposed to be operational by February 1946.

The hole you see on the first pics is a elevator shaft in early construction phase.


But thats not all.....

They found a direct tunnel connection to another smaller bunker complex under castle F├╝rstenstein. (By the way : Castle F├╝rstenstein was formely owned by relatives of Winston Churchill)

This complex was created by 50 architects of Albert SpeerÔ┬┤s staff under the disguise of it beeing an guesthouse for tourists.

Idea was that in case of an emergency Hitler was supposed to use a elevator in one of the bedrooms of the castle which should bring him 50 meters deep into the mountain the castle is build on.


http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/5356/cap541pe9.jpg
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/7425/cap540jc6.jpg


This is the exit point of the elevator shaft leading into a long tunnel.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/589/cap514awg1.jpg

There are even more flooded caves that show signs of mining explosions and jackhammer traces on their ceilings...

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/3107/cap543xq6.jpg
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4945/cap544ts9.jpg
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2361/cap549bn2.jpg


They are now trying to find out what the naziÔ┬┤s were really up to with that area aside of "Codename : Brise"

One thing is sure : They had big plans

mariuszj1939
07-21-2006, 05:11 AM
Castle F├╝rstenstein

I like so much that Silesian castle in Ksiaz :
http://www.ksiaz.walbrzych.pl/galer_z.html

Celeon999
07-22-2006, 03:10 AM
It also has a very beautiful garden. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VikingGrandad
07-22-2006, 03:14 AM
Originally posted by Celeon999:
I have a DVD about that topic and it also covers the Wolfschanze and Hitlers secret new HQ that was supposed to replace it and was already in construction.



Alert ! Lot of pics will follow.

...

One thing is sure : They had big plans

I am totally fascinated by these pictures. Thanks for posting them again Celeon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Hopefully, one day we will see some of your video clips on youtube.com http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

VikingGrandad
07-22-2006, 03:28 AM
Originally posted by Realjambo:
I love this bit of the BBC website, check out what hapenned on your birthday for example, but today, well, Hitler survived his assasination attempt.

Who knows what may have hapenned had he not - perhaps the Kaleuns would have got the new fast boats they were promised?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/2..._3505000/3505014.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/20/newsid_3505000/3505014.stm)

One theme that seems to come up a lot in WW2 TV documentaries is that Hitler made a lot of bad military decisions, often against the advice of his generals. Had he given his generals more power, I wonder how different things might have been.

One obvious example - in June 1944, if Hitler had not forbidden his panzer divisions in France to move without his permission, could the D-Day invasion have been repelled?

Goose_Green
07-22-2006, 04:00 AM
Originally posted by VikingGrandad:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Realjambo:
I love this bit of the BBC website, check out what hapenned on your birthday for example, but today, well, Hitler survived his assasination attempt.

Who knows what may have hapenned had he not - perhaps the Kaleuns would have got the new fast boats they were promised?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/2..._3505000/3505014.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/20/newsid_3505000/3505014.stm)

One theme that seems to come up a lot in WW2 TV documentaries is that Hitler made a lot of bad military decisions, often against the advice of his generals. Had he given his generals more power, I wonder how different things might have been.

One obvious example - in June 1944, if Hitler had not forbidden his panzer divisions in France to move without his permission, could the D-Day invasion have been repelled? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I for one am glad Hitler had total authority of the Panzer divisions. But you are right, many of Germany's mistakes during the war were instigated by the Fuhrer - it would have been interesting to know what might have happened if the generals had more control.

Celeon999
07-22-2006, 04:10 AM
One obvious example - in June 1944, if Hitler had not forbidden his panzer divisions in France to move without his permission, could the D-Day invasion have been repelled?

Good Question.

Rommel asked several times for the permission to take command over the elite SS tank divisions to lead an immidiate surprise counter attack on the beaches.

He at least , was convinced that he could throw the already landed troops (remember that the tanks didnt landed as planned) into the sea and topple the entire operation with a quick surpise frontal strike on the american beachheads.

There were also other generals asking Hitler for the permission to let themselves be supplied with nerve gas to attack the established beachheads a few days later.

There were huge stockpiles of Sarin , Soman and Tabun in the storages ! And the allies had no clue of the existence of nerve agents at all.



The gasmasks of the allied soldiers gave protection against normal blistering agents like mustard gas but not nearly enough protection against something like nerve agents and the casualties among the french civilians living nearby would had been gigantic.

Luckily Hitler immidiatly denied the permission and gave a direct reminder to all commanders that he is the only one that has the right to order the use of chemical weapons.


At least this one is an example of Hitler beeing in command was a really good thing after all. Imagine one of those crazy generals would had the command.....

cpt_Alex2006
07-22-2006, 04:22 AM
Thngs like this fascinate me, the whole genre of ww2 will never run out of gaming/movie ideas because as fictional as they seem there are so many dark secrets.

Alex