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View Full Version : 4.0m - TRIM ON A SLIDER --- again !



h009291
06-09-2005, 10:32 AM
Hi all,

Haven't seen many comments on this .. but ... RBJ would be so proud. The Trim on the Slider works like those older patches. Move that baby up and down and you have Bat Mobile all over again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Chadburn
06-09-2005, 10:50 AM
Yes. I'm not sure for the reasoning behind insta-trim except that it might be to help the beta testers quickly and easily trim planes for testing, but if it remains in 4.01 release, then it seems like a step backwards.

HelSqnProtos
06-09-2005, 11:03 AM
S~!

That seems to be the general concensus in my Squadron as well. Trim needs to be toned down. Other than that pretty happy with the patch.

diomedes33
06-09-2005, 11:16 AM
I don't understand why this is a step backwards. In a real aircraft there is no lag between the trim wheel and the trim tab. As far as I know there is a direct cable linkage.

I realize that back a year or two ago, the trim was exploited to make bat turns in a yak. However, with structural failures and more complex aerodynamics I don't see how it can be exploited anymore. Everytime I tried, I either spun or didn't see any significant difference.

On the other hand, its a whole lot easier to trim the aircraft. No more guessing needed, just move the wheel till there's no more stick pressure.

Jetbuff
06-09-2005, 11:24 AM
What's with the chicken-little syndrome? I double-dare you to out-turn me via trim on a slider.

Don't get me wrong you could now just as you could in 3.04. (you just to think ahead a bit back then) If you don't die right away from blackout, wing/control-surface loss or stall, your immense E-bleed will put you at such a severe disadvantage for the rest of the fight you might as well draw a bullseye on your plane.

Go here for a more in-depth discussion before brandishing your own torch: http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb....topic;f=127;t=003023 (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=127;t=003023)

Flakenstien
06-09-2005, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by diomedes33:
In a real aircraft there is no lag between the trim wheel and the trim tab. As far as I know there is a direct cable linkage.



Part of that statement is correct as far as the linkage goes, but for the trim to have effect on the aircraft after moving the trim dial it isnt instantaneous.
There is a delay from setting the trim until the aircraft settles into it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Go fly a real airplane and you will see what I'm talking about and it doesn't need to be a Warbird any Cessna 150 will do, they all react the same to trim setting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jetbuff
06-09-2005, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by Flakenstien:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by diomedes33:
In a real aircraft there is no lag between the trim wheel and the trim tab. As far as I know there is a direct cable linkage.



Part of that statement is correct as far as the linkage goes, but for the trim to have effect on the aircraft after moving the trim dial it isnt instantaneous.
There is a delay from setting the trim until the aircraft settles into it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Go fly a real airplane and you will see what I'm talking about and it doesn't need to be a Warbird any Cessna 150 will do, they all react the same to trim setting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I thought that was only true if you are trimming with your hands off the stick. (and it does happen in PF 4.0 as well)

i.e., if you trim the forces away while holding the stick in the desired neutral position I see no reason why the plane would require undue oscillations to settle into the new pitch attitude.

easymo
06-09-2005, 11:59 AM
I am guessing the sales of Cougar Joy sticks is slow. Olag must be getting a piece of the pie.

diomedes33
06-09-2005, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Flakenstien:
Go fly a real airplane and you will see what I'm talking about and it doesn't need to be a Warbird any Cessna 150 will do, they all react the same to trim setting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I've flown a cessna 150 and I get the same feel out of it. As Jetbuff said, you're using the trim to hold the elevator where its at. Since there is no movement of the elevator (only trim tab) there should be no oscilations.

WholeHawg
06-09-2005, 12:40 PM
I cant see how a trim tab should allow you to turn any better or faster than you could using the stick? All the tab does is nudge the elevator/rudder/aileron in one direction or another. The control surface isn't changed and so it should be no more effective that if you just moved that surface manualy?

MooseNoodles
06-09-2005, 12:52 PM
I fly aerobat and to be really honest guys when ur chugging along at a reasonable rate, and go for a PAT move the feeling on the trim wheel is pretty much right there and u can feel it as good as instant through your fingers..

Trim on a slider to me that has real flight experience is much more realistic approach than button pressing...

allmenroder
06-09-2005, 01:08 PM
Ok folks, trim in a real aircraft is only for a specific power setting and attitude. Once you change either (power or attitude) you have to retrim to your new power setting/attitude in order to relieve control pressure. You can, relativley easily, fly an aircraft without ever trimming it.

Trim is not, never was, and never shall be an autopilot.

For me, the real test of the FM of the new mod will be the torque roll effects of all the Yahoos going to full power on takeoff or full power at low E (evidence nighlty on all online servers).

In either of the above cases, the high performance aircraft featured in this sim, should roll uncontrollably: with acknowledgement that different aircraft (for example, the 109 series and P51 series) have different characteristics.

The P51 would roll over on takeoff if you went to > 50 inches, the 109 ought to lose rudder effectiveness at low speed and high power settings.

TX-EcoDragon
06-09-2005, 01:15 PM
Trim is generally pretty fast in response to the input not matter if you are holding the stick or not, the stick pressure changes right away, now if you are talking about a stabilized level flight attitude, sure there is some oscillation, just like there is anytime any surface is moved. . .but that doesn't really matter, all are pretty near instant. The problem is that trim is set up in the game to increase total surface travel, and given that there are no stick forces to overcome with our little joysticks there isn't much repercussion to flying out of trim, so people can dump a bunch of trim in AND pull all the way back, and the net result is they have more total elevator authority than they should. Now if that gets changed, the trim should be put back like it used to be, so that ALL of us aren't penalized with unrealistic trim because of the badseeds out there.

Atomic_Marten
06-09-2005, 01:17 PM
Oh, how I agree with some guys that are saying that this is no advantage at all.

And BTW advantage to whom? I don't understand the 'advantage' part at all. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The only real benefit would maybe achieving more elevator response on higher speeds..

Either way.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Jetbuff
06-09-2005, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by WholeHawg:
I cant see how a trim tab should allow you to turn any better or faster than you could using the stick? All the tab does is nudge the elevator/rudder/aileron in one direction or another. The control surface isn't changed and so it should be no more effective that if you just moved that surface manualy?
Read the simHQ thread. It's related to stick forces. IL-2 models pilot-force via the joystick. i.e. if you pull the joystick all the way back you are applying 50lb of force. Wether that results in your virtual stick moving 1 inch or 10 depends on what your airspeed is at the time.

At high enough speeds (500kph+ as it stands now by the looks of it) your virtual pilot can no longer pull the stick to max deflection against the aerodynamic pressures acting on the elevators and therefore cannot pull maximum G's. With trim, you relieve some of the aerodynamic forces preventing you from doing so (think of it as power-assist) and can pull the extra G's. This is aerodynamically sound behaviour, whether you'd actually want to go 600kph and pull 10 G's voluntarily though (in the game or otherwise) is questionable.

I have read several accounts of trim assisted pull-outs from steep dives in WWII. Both the plane and pilot were badly mauled by the experience in pretty much every case though. FB has similar negative repercussions (blackout, wing/control surface loss) but they are not as varied nor as scary as RL because you can always hit refly.

Gibbage1
06-09-2005, 01:32 PM
The problem with trim on a slider with no lag is you can go from full positive to full negitive instantly. Thats simply NOT possible in real life. It takes time to move the trim wheel. People used this as a big advantage in dogfights being able to greatly increase there turn instantly. Yes, in real life it could help, but it was never instant. Again, pilots would have to move the wheel. When pulling 5-7G's thats NOT AN EASY TASK.

Instant trim is simply not realistic.

Jetbuff
06-09-2005, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
The problem with trim on a slider with no lag is you can go from full positive to full negitive instantly. Thats simply NOT possible in real life. It takes time to move the trim wheel. People used this as a big advantage in dogfights being able to greatly increase there turn instantly. Yes, in real life it could help, but it was never instant. Again, pilots would have to move the wheel. When pulling 5-7G's thats NOT AN EASY TASK.
Agreed.

Instant trim is simply not realistic.
But neither is sloth trim. i.e. if the delay was mechanical - say we each got a replica trim wheel to fly with - then I would have no problem with it at all. However, artificially slowing trim causes it to be far less precise than it really is. Having to tap/dial in trim and then wait for it to take effect is frought with trial and error for what most pilots describe as a straight forward process - turn the wheel until there are no more forces on the stick.

Now, if the bat exploit was still a major problem or sloth trim prevented it I'd probably accept sloth-trim as a necessary evil. Since neither is true (bat-turn = lawn-dart/blackout and sloth-trim can be overcome by pre-trimming for bat-turns) there is absolutely no reason for this fudge of a compromise.

Gibbage1
06-09-2005, 01:54 PM
LAg trim is realistic. The trim wheel gives the pilot a command. It will take time for that pilot to complete that command. Like the joystick, your not directly controlling the aircraft, but giving the pilot commands. So your pilot is a little slow. Its much more realistic then instant trim. Do you not agree?

Chadburn
06-09-2005, 02:11 PM
In rl, 109 pilots were instructed to pre-trim in order to avoid compression so they could pull out from high speed dives. They actually had to push the stick forward in order to hold the 109 in it's dive when properly trimmed. If they forgot to do this, then pulling out of a dive was very difficult because of the onset of compression on the elevator controls.

Now, why require pre-trimming? Is it because in a high speed dive, you can't just turn a tiny thumb-wheel and get full elevator response to return instantaneously? That's what we have in version 4.00, so I agree with Gibbage that it's unrealistic.

Jetbuff, I understand the problem with sloth trim too. In rl the G-2 manual states that you'd feel a definite "notch" as feedback for the pilot so he'd know how much he'd dialed in. But with practice, you could do the same in the game by paying attention to how much you moved your slider.

My major concern with instant trim is the ability to do high speed manoeuvers that compression should negate. Overall, the effects of compression seems to be lessened tremendously in the unofficial release (at least in the 109), so instant trim response isn't as big an advantage as it would otherwise be. But in 3.04, you can't pull the k4 stick hard enough at high speed to come close to blacking out. Now I know many argue about how realistic that is, but the onset of compression and having to deal with it seemed like a move to make the sim more realistic. Delaying trim response to make compression effects more dangerous as they were in rl seemed a good idea as well since the time it took to get the nose to inch up replicated reports I'd read about where 109 pilots were frantically trying to dial trim and pull on the joystick. That's why I think the current situation, being able to instantly overcome compression effects is a step backwards. Of course, it remains to be seen if the compression effects will be reintroduced.

Jetbuff
06-09-2005, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
LAg trim is realistic. The trim wheel gives the pilot a command. It will take time for that pilot to complete that command. Like the joystick, your not directly controlling the aircraft, but giving the pilot commands. So your pilot is a little slow. Its much more realistic then instant trim. Do you not agree?
It depends what you consider realistic. The appearance of it (speed) or the effect. (precision) Trim is much more precise than sloth-trim would have you believe. That said, you are well within your rights to prefer realistic speed of application over realistic utility. I tend to prefer the latter.

As for combating the bat-turn, sloth-trim doesn't do jack! If I were a bat-turner wanna be, the worst it demanded of me was a little forethought to dial it in a bit earlier. Big freakin' deal. That's my real beef, people thinking that sloth-trim somehow "fixed" bat-turning, it never has and never will.

Jetbuff
06-09-2005, 02:23 PM
Chadburn, thank you for being the first to bring up a valid argument.

Yes, you are correct. Slow trim would enhance that aspect of realism. OTOH, it decreases the utility of trim, which, realistically, is quite accurate. Whether you prefer one compromise over the other is up to you. It's the people who think insta-trim = bat-turns that get to me.

AerialTarget
06-09-2005, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by diomedes33:
In a real aircraft there is no lag between the trim wheel and the trim tab. As far as I know there is a direct cable linkage.

No more guessing needed, just move the wheel till there's no more stick pressure.

You're full of it. In real life, there's no lag - but it takes a good many seconds (it's been five years since I touched a real trim wheel, but fifteen to thirty seconds sounds right to me) to get from one end to the other. In the game, without the delay, it takes zero point zero one seconds.

Also, changing trim does not change stick pressure in the game as it does in real life. Instead, it moves the default stick position in the virtual cockpit. You can can it with the stick pressure line, because it's not true.

Jetbuff
06-09-2005, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
Also, changing trim does not change stick pressure in the game as it does in real life. Instead, it moves the default stick position in the virtual cockpit. You can can it with the stick pressure line, because it's not true.
Please first test it and prove to us that you get extra deflection by using trim before high speed impacts your ability to move the elevators. The neutral position of the virtual stick will of course move if you trim the forces away, what did you expect?

Ugly_Kid
06-09-2005, 02:51 PM
You're forgetting that the delay in the trim was just a band aid to circumvent the actual problem which was that the stall did not seem to react on trim. Indeed, the stall seemed to be just an issue of hampering with the elevator - now, it actually seems to be really controled by the flow, by the angle of attack. So before you start thinking: fast trim -> bat turns, think first what made these alleged turns possible in the first place and think(AND FOR PETE'S SAKE TEST) whether this even exists anymore...

Jetbuff
06-09-2005, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Ugly_Kid:
AND FOR PETE'S SAKE TEST
Oh good God yes! I did. Bat-turning is one sure-fire way to get killed in 4.0 whether immediately by stalling or losing a control surface/wing or eventually due to E-loss and/or blackout.

Gibbage1
06-09-2005, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
It depends what you consider realistic. The appearance of it (speed) or the effect. (precision) Trim is much more precise than sloth-trim would have you believe. That said, you are well within your rights to prefer realistic speed of application over realistic utility. I tend to prefer the latter.

As for combating the bat-turn, sloth-trim doesn't do jack! If I were a bat-turner wanna be, the worst it demanded of me was a little forethought to dial it in a bit earlier. Big freakin' deal. That's my real beef, people thinking that sloth-trim somehow "fixed" bat-turning, it never has and never will.

But turning with tril was rappent online till the patch added lag. That compleatly eliminated it online!!! Big freakin deal? No. Sloth-Trim does not hinder your ability to tril at all. Once you fly and learn your aircraft, you will learn the position the slider needs to be. Small corrections take no time what-so-ever. This only truly effects the people who want to use it as a way to give them an advantage online.

diomedes33
06-09-2005, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
You're full of it. In real life, there's no lag - but it takes a good many seconds (it's been five years since I touched a real trim wheel, but fifteen to thirty seconds sounds right to me) to get from one end to the other. In the game, without the delay, it takes zero point zero one seconds.

Also, changing trim does not change stick pressure in the game as it does in real life. Instead, it moves the default stick position in the virtual cockpit. You can can it with the stick pressure line, because it's not true.

Excuse me? I never once said anything about full traveral of the trim wheel. The problem I was talking about was when you move the wheel 2 or 3 degrees at cruising speed (1g) and holding the elevator where it needs to be; it takes a few seconds for it to register. This should be instantanous. I never implied or said anything about high speed dives or g loads.

For stick pressure. I hold the stick down to maintain level flight. I move the trim wheel a few degrees. Voilla!! simulated stick pressure is gone. Whether this is simulated in the game by moving the stick or trim tab, its not up to me. Oleg programmed the thing. The result is the same, I no longer have to fight my joystick to keep the plane level. I'm sorry if it doesn't follow your symantics.

I don't know about you, but I fly online on servers where there could be a 15 - 20 minute flight between base and target. The less time I have to fight the airplane, is the less time I have to watch the instruments and the more time I can look around for things to shoot or things that want to shoot me.

Maybe you should try reading what I wrote, other than jumping to your own bias's and preconceptions next time.

Gibbage1
06-09-2005, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by diomedes33:

Excuse me? I never once said anything about full traveral of the trim wheel. The problem I was talking about was when you move the wheel 2 or 3 degrees at cruising speed (1g) and holding the elevator where it needs to be; it takes a few seconds for it to register.

IL2 was NEVER like this. Small trim ajustments were almost instant. It was just large ajustments that had lag since the wheel had to spin at a defined rate before the set trim level was reached. As it is in real life. It takes time to turn a weel.

diomedes33
06-09-2005, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Once you fly and learn your aircraft, you will learn the position the slider needs to be. Small corrections take no time what-so-ever. This only truly effects the people who want to use it as a way to give them an advantage online.

I've always had problems with porpoising with the trim lag. With the changes in v4.00, its a lot easier.

I use the throttle wheel on the Ch-Fighter stick for elevator trim, which doesn't have any detents. So for the first few minutes of flight I'm trying to figure out where I'm at. Unless I'm in the 190 that has a trim gauge.



Originally posted by Gibbage1

IL2 was NEVER like this. Small trim ajustments were almost instant. It was just large ajustments that had lag since the wheel had to spin at a defined rate before the set trim level was reached. As it is in real life. It takes time to turn a weel.

Then something else changed in the code, because its a lot easier to trim a plane with small corrections now for me.

btw I agree that big corrections should have some lag, because of the wheel spin rate.

LeadSpitter_
06-09-2005, 04:01 PM
Im already seeing such bs comments like how is the p38 out turning my 109 on the deck hows the mustang out turning 109s now blah blah.

its becuase these fools dont have trim on a slider and dont use combat flaps and very slowed down filtering

Atomic_Marten
06-09-2005, 05:13 PM
This whole issue is really unfortunate to discuss on relation -
-I love delayed trim leave it this way because of xx + it is more realistic
or
-I think that non-delayed trim is the way to go + is more realistic than delayed.

Thing is, both statement could be true when applied to the game enviroment.

@Gibbage1 (and some of you guys) take note that there can be NO advantage in trim usage that one side can attain. If you do not agree with me say why.. I certainly can not see how can someone take advantage over others when using elevator trim.

I can easily say, (using the same analogy), using rudder is advantage. Whose advantage exactly that can be?http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I think that english word advantage is being used to describe some attribute that one can have *better* over others. That is not the case here, it is out of question, and I fail to see why so many of you are using that word in such context.

One possible solution for your pain guys (at least those of you who cared about this, whenever you are for or against trim 'exploit'http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif) is to delete Elevator Trim Slider control in Controls section. After that one can use the non-delayed trim only by typing the same key for 20+times. That may be most realistic of all your proposals. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

FoolTrottel
06-09-2005, 05:19 PM
The real problem with trim in this sim is that there are no trim-surfaces modelled!

Look at an external view of yer elevators when you apply trim ... they move! In real life, only the trim tabs would change position/angle, not the complete control surface !

Have Fun!

Gibbage1
06-09-2005, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
I think that english word advantage is being used to describe some attribute that one can have *better* over others. That is not the case here, it is out of question, and I fail to see why so many of you are using that word in such context.


Im not talking about advantage. Im talking exploit of an unrealistic feature. As I said over and over, no pilot in any aircraft can in real lift instantly trim an aircraft. You should not be able to do it in the sim. That will eliminate it being used at a cheat to better your turn time.

Jetbuff
06-09-2005, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Im not talking about advantage. Im talking exploit of an unrealistic feature. As I said over and over, no pilot in any aircraft can in real lift instantly trim an aircraft. You should not be able to do it in the sim. That will eliminate it being used at a cheat to better your turn time.
You is wrong.. be sure. Anyone can perform the bat-turn just as easily with delayed trim. Only difference is he has to think ahead and pre-trim in anticipation. Thank God we now have real deterrants against this sort of abuse now.

Can you deny that if I pre-trim I can bat-turn? Then how does delayed trim address the problem? If I enter a steep dive and trim at the last second versus trimming before diving, what's the difference as far as plane performance and the fabled bat-turn is concerned?

Like I said, if your issue is that you want realistic modelling of the time it took to spin the trim wheel versus the accuracy of that device then you have an argument. But this bat-turn BS is so wrong it's not even funny.

LEXX_Luthor
06-09-2005, 06:19 PM
I used to fly Cessna~152, and as our aerobatic pilot TX-EcoDragon posted last page, any small change in the trim <span class="ev_code_yellow">wheel</span> has near instant effect--turn wheel a half turn and feel your stomach move inside. And, you don't overshoot your trim--you can follow closely because you notice trim changes very fast.

Maybe the best fix for FB/PF is don't fly with trim mapped to a slider. I always use Mouse Wheel for trim....always. I consider it unrealistic to map trim to a slider...but then I am offline player looking for realistic immersion instead of instant Brownie Point score on the Online dogfight servers.

I hate to say it .... AvBear at Avsim website said it Perfect...

AvBear::
Fly with people you know

------------------------------

TX-EcoDragon::
Trim is generally pretty fast in response to the input not matter if you are holding the stick or not, the stick pressure changes right away, now if you are talking about a stabilized level flight attitude, sure there is some oscillation, just like there is anytime any surface is moved. . .but that doesn't really matter, all are pretty near instant. The problem is that trim is set up in the game to increase total surface travel, and given that there are no stick forces to overcome with our little joysticks there isn't much repercussion to flying out of trim, so people can dump a bunch of trim in AND pull all the way back, and the net result is they have more total elevator authority than they should. Now if that gets changed, the trim should be put back like it used to be, so that ALL of us aren't penalized with unrealistic trim because of the badseeds out there.

h009291
06-09-2005, 07:07 PM
Good discussion guys ... I havent really tested out whether the Trim on a Slider actually makes the planes turn like a Bat once again. The only thing I noticed last night (in a Quick Mission - G2) was how responsive the trim was on a slider again. I have always used trim on the slider ... even after the patch that eliminated it's huge advantage.

If Oleg thought it was such an advantage, why didnt he remove the ability to assign it in SETUP HOTAS section entirely? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Gibbage1
06-09-2005, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Can you deny that if I pre-trim I can bat-turn? Then how does delayed trim address the problem? If I enter a steep dive and trim at the last second versus trimming before diving, what's the difference as far as plane performance and the fabled bat-turn is concerned?


It could help, but when your being bounced you dont have time to trim before you start your turn. Yes? Pre-trimming in a combat situation is just a good way of making you an easy target for a short time.

So, when EXACTLY do you start "pre-trumming". When you see the bullets going by your canopy? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Be my guest!!!

Atomic_Marten
06-09-2005, 07:38 PM
I have never used the elevator trim seriously (I have used it few times and that's about it).

So, for those who know; how long exactly was it delayed in 3.04? I want full up trim, I rotate slider (I have X45 should not take longer than half of a sec.), how long will it take to begin the "nose up" move?

Gibbage1
06-09-2005, 07:42 PM
OK. Now that I am finally home, I did something NONE of you whiners even botherd doing. I did a test!!!! OMG! WTF! Yes. A test! I tested trim sliding. Here is the results

On a P-38, it takes a full 5 seconds to go from full positive to full negitive. Instant trim does NOT exist. Trim responds faster, but its not instant.

At 1000M, going 400KPH it takes 22 seconds to turn a P-38 clean.

At 1000M going 400KPH it takes 22 seconds to turn a P-38 using full trim.

I started applying positive trim the moment I rolled into the turn so it took full effect 5 seconds later meaning my aircraft was at full positive trim for 17 seconds but it STILL did NOT improve my turn one bit.

God I am so SICK AND TIRED of you bunch of cry baby's that wont do a single bit of testing!!! I was at work all day and I did not once debate weather the trim on a slider cheat was in or not, but weather its a valid tactic or a cheat.

Gib

LeadSpitter_
06-09-2005, 07:43 PM
The whole problem with this unrealistic trim is little tabs will not control the ac faster then the whole rudder like it currently is doing now.

I think its alot easier with this supertrim and it is more noticable then the slow trim especially for recentering the trim tabs.

LR55
06-09-2005, 07:54 PM
Hmmm...... Interesting topic

After flying 4.0 and working with the trim settings it looks like to me that if you have alot of nose up trim, before you pull or during you pull!!!!

The aircraft departs! Or black out.

Yes the trim is faster now then in 3.04 etc. But it is at a speed that is close to real.

How do I know?

Ok! Looks like with have some real pilots here, lets first start with a run of the mill Cessna and work through War Birds then onto jets.

Also remember IN REAL LIFE some aircraft trim the stabilizer only and some aircraft trim the elevator with a small trim tab.

And for timing purpose this trimming is done from level flight to full nose up trim.

C 172 all models basically..

Level flight grab top of trim wheel move down aggressively about 6 times you will have full nose up trim.

Takes about 4 seconds + -

BE 58 Baron same wheel about 4 seconds + -

T-34 nice wheel at lower left (looks like other aircraft)
about the same 4 seconds and you do a loop hands free.

Lear Jet 35, 55 electric trim from level flight at Mach .78 full up nose trim in 8 seconds + -.

B 727 manual trim wheel (MANUAL MODE) as fast as you can turn with a handle about 30 turns.

And so on and so on ...................

When I fly this sim I always fly with some nose up trim which is no different then when I fly the real 1`s.

When doing certain maneuvers trimming is the way it`s done.

Try a steep turn 180 rev. in something that weighs 8,000 lbs to 150,000 lbs you WILL BE TRIMMING.

Ask Joann Osterud if she trimmed while setting the OUT SIDE LOOP record.

Like landings....Jets are normally VRef.+10 on final to landing, but even flying a 152 I always flew with a little nose up trim on final because at power reduction airspeed slows and the aircraft is already trimmed for the slower airspeed. Holding 5 to 7 lbs forward pressure is normal.

And also remember todays acro aircraft most have balanced controls meaning little or no compression.

All in all the best comment I`ve seen was the one stating that this sim trims the elevator not the tabs.

In all my years of flying I have never when on the ground moved a trim tab that moved the elevator.


Besides as the DF servers go if you see someone bat turning and your running the server it`s more then likely going to be a kick. And if your not running it, you get them on the next pass or you leave.

It`s only a game IT`S NOT REAL..........


-S!

Gibbage1
06-09-2005, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by LR55:

T-34 nice wheel at lower left (looks like other aircraft)
about the same 4 seconds and you do a loop hands free.


Thanks for your comments! Very welcome here! Teach us armchair pilots a thing or two http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Question. You have flown the T-34. What do you think of the P-80 in the game? I know not QUITE the same, but similar. Im guessing the wing tanks dont help roll much on the T-34? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Also, what do you think of the model both inside and out? I am the one who modeled both.

Gib

altstiff
06-09-2005, 08:44 PM
I read in a book that German 109 pilots use to fly trim slightly nose up all the time this way they always had slight forward pressure on the stick.

NonWonderDog
06-09-2005, 09:13 PM
Just as a futile attempt to clear up some confusion among non-pilots:
Trim tabs do *NOT*, by themselves, turn the plane. What trim tabs do is turn the control surface. Trim tabs effectively change the position in which the control surface will settle as the aircraft moves through the air. In fact, when you trim the elevator up, the trim tab moves *DOWN*. If move the trim without holding the stick for some reason, the stick *will* actually move of its own accord to the position that you trimmed it to.

Trim can be one of the most powerful controls on many planes. So please, no more "those little trim tabs couldn't possibly move the plane" nonsense.

In a real aircraft, trim is used to relax stick forces. You move the stick, you hold it there, and then you trim until it STAYS there. If you then let go, the stick stays where it is.

The sim does the same thing, but it's translated a bit differently to your controls. Full deflection on your physical joystick is not necessarily equal to full deflection on the virtual stick. Moving your joystick all the way over translates instead to up to 50 lbs or so of pressure on the virtual stick. You can see this in game if you hold a control while gaining speed; as you go faster, the virtual stick moves back towards center because your pilot can't hold it all the way over with 50 lbs of pressure. If you're going fast enough in some planes you can barely move the stick at all. In several planes, the only way to pull out of a steep dive is to carfully use the trim to move the elevator (as *was* done in real life).

There isn't any trim "exploit" in game; it all works just as it should. You can occasionally pull the stick farther if you trim into a turn, but at any speed at which it could be a factor you're more likely to black out and rip the wings off the plane than to gain any advantage.

It's kind of confusing when you move the trim on the ground because the control stick is moved along with the trim. It really wouldn't have any effect at all if you changed trim when the plane was stationary, but then again, it doesn't take any stick force to hold the controls over when the plane is stationary, either. The stick force thing obviously doesn't work when the plane is on the ground, so it's different. The alternative would be for the sim to NOT move the control surface when you trim on the ground and instead allow the airflow to move the stick as you're taking off... which would not be pretty.

This whole debate is more uninformed speculation and pointless arguing than anything. If anyone can show that anything is *WRONG*, then it should be brought up, but no one so far has done anything of the sort.

LR55
06-09-2005, 09:17 PM
Sry Gibb. for taking so long was flying LOL...........


Never flew the real P-80 but learned alot from a guy who did and has also flown this sim and he liked it alot.

The T-34 I flew is the Beech Mentor it doesn`t have tip tanks.

The only aircraft I`ve flown with tip tanks are the Lear 25,35.

And like any other aircraft with tip tanks if you get it rolling it will go like a top.

Over all I think this sim is very good and keeps getting better, we are after all playing on a 2D screen with
no feel, and its all hand eye coordination.

I`ve seen some post here from other pilots there seems to be a few. I think they all say the same.

It doesn`t matter if they have 20 hours in a 150 to 20,000 hrs flying Jets, fly PPL only or fly acro only to airlines.

I think they all say the same.

It`s a good sim (BEST I`VE SEEN) with limits from being a computer.

Thats just the way it is.

Even if we got some realtime vets who flew in combat in any of these aircraft that are flying this sim I think they would say the same thing.

It`s GOOD and with this patch the flight model is getting better and better....

And the modelling is VERY GOOD!!!!!

And please I`m just a pilot thats been flying along time and have flown alot of aircraft.

But I`m not a test pilot or some ace of the base, I hope to die in bed with a beer in one hand, a nice girl in the other and come and go at the same time...... LOL

~S!

Lixma
06-09-2005, 10:00 PM
If only Oleg modelled a virtual pilot in the cockpit....

You could see his arms moving the stick and throttle and winding the trim wheel, too.

The best thing would be watching those pilots with trim on a slider. To the observer the pilot would look like he's masturbating furiously as he cranks the wheel at 120rpm.

Heeeeee....

Jetbuff
06-09-2005, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
OK. Now that I am finally home, I did something NONE of you whiners even botherd doing. I did a test!!!! OMG! WTF! Yes. A test! I tested trim sliding. Here is the results

On a P-38, it takes a full 5 seconds to go from full positive to full negitive. Instant trim does NOT exist. Trim responds faster, but its not instant.

At 1000M, going 400KPH it takes 22 seconds to turn a P-38 clean.

At 1000M going 400KPH it takes 22 seconds to turn a P-38 using full trim.

I started applying positive trim the moment I rolled into the turn so it took full effect 5 seconds later meaning my aircraft was at full positive trim for 17 seconds but it STILL did NOT improve my turn one bit.

See, I told you it was over nothing... although you need to be faster than 500kph before you benefit from trim - and yes I tested it. Unfortunately, doing so resulted in one of three things:

- prolonged blackout with me ending up in the drink

- ripped control surfaces

- stall

So like I said from the beginning 4.0 solves bat-turning in a much more radical way than the farce of a solution that sloth-trim did.

In other words, yes we have insta-trim, but who in their right mind would want to use it in any other way as opposed to incrementally? It's a death-wish to twirl your trim knob right now. Good riddance to a stupid exploit and there is no longer any need for the artificial sloth trim.


PS: regarding pre-trimming need I remind you of RBJ's innovative FFB + pre-trim trick? Sloth trim was a joke as far as preventing bat-turns.

Badsight.
06-09-2005, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
[It depends what you consider realistic. The appearance of it (speed) or the effect. (precision) Trim is much more precise than sloth-trim would have you believe. That said, you are well within your rights to prefer realistic speed of application over realistic utility. I tend to prefer the latter. well there should be consistency

your real JS doesnt control the virtual one but your pilot

your real trim control shouldnt thus control your virtual trim wheel , but the pilot

Gibbage has a point

diomedes33
06-09-2005, 10:37 PM
Good posts NonWonderDog and LR55.

Here's a link (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_003a.html) over at simhq that explains trim tabs and moveable stabs (which the 109 has) with pictures and diagrams.

Gibbage1
06-09-2005, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by LR55:
And please I`m just a pilot thats been flying along time and have flown alot of aircraft.

But I`m not a test pilot or some ace of the base, I hope to die in bed with a beer in one hand, a nice girl in the other and come and go at the same time...... LOL
~S!

You have a lot more flight time then I ever have! Thanks.

Chadburn
06-09-2005, 10:41 PM
Gibbage, your test at 400kph is done at too slow a speed. Your test simply shows that at 240mph you can achieve excellent deflection of your elevators in your p38 without the need to add trim. That makes sense for a frontline fighter like the p38. What I'm getting at is that instantaneous trim can be used to overcome compression effects at high speeds, like those acheived in a dive, and it can be done in a fraction of the time it took a WWII pilot to do it.

BTW, some of you mentioned trim tabs. The 109 didn't have trim tabs on the elevator's surface. The entire tail plane moved when the trim wheel was turned, and that is why it was effective even in high speed dives - but only if the pilot had pre-trimmed before entering a dive, or having discovered that his plane was trimmed wrong and his elevators were locking up at high speed, if he had enough time to dial in the necessary trim to inch the nose up.

But like I said earlier, the compression effect in this unoffical release is much less than in 3.04 so the obvious exploit of insta-trim isn't there. Even a late-model 109 can easily and quickly be pulled out of a 750kmh+ dive with only stick force, something that couldn't be done in 3.04. I'll wait and see what 4.01 brings.

AerialTarget
06-09-2005, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Please first test it and prove to us that you get extra deflection by using trim before high speed impacts your ability to move the elevators.

Ah, ah, ah! That's not what I said, is it? I never mentioned high speed; it is irrelevent, because it's unrealistically modelled at both high speed and low speed. The fact is that in the game, even though you have your actual joystick all the way back, adding trim moves the elevator back further. And that does not happen in real life.

NonWonderDog
06-10-2005, 12:48 AM
Errr.... No it doesn't. Doesn't happen in game or in real life.

At least, it doesn't happen in 4.00m.

AerialTarget
06-10-2005, 03:25 AM
I'm not using the unofficial, leaked patch. And I'm not talking about it. I'm talking about the current version, three point zero four. And yes, it does.

Henkie_
06-10-2005, 09:13 AM
I don't have 3.04 anymore.

But in 4.0 for sure the elevator moves not more with elevator trim if you already have maximum elevator deflection.

You can test it easy in 3.04 also. Just put a plane on the runway and pull the stick back 100%. Then put in elevator trim and watch if the elevator will move more. I don't have 3.04 anymore. But I don't think it will move if you have already max. elevator deflection.

A lot of panic for nothing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Jetbuff
06-10-2005, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
Just as a futile attempt to clear up some confusion among non-pilots:
Trim tabs do *NOT*, by themselves, turn the plane. What trim tabs do is turn the control surface. Trim tabs effectively change the position in which the control surface will settle as the aircraft moves through the air. In fact, when you trim the elevator up, the trim tab moves *DOWN*. If move the trim without holding the stick for some reason, the stick *will* actually move of its own accord to the position that you trimmed it to.

Trim can be one of the most powerful controls on many planes. So please, no more "those little trim tabs couldn't possibly move the plane" nonsense.

In a real aircraft, trim is used to relax stick forces. You move the stick, you hold it there, and then you trim until it STAYS there. If you then let go, the stick stays where it is.

The sim does the same thing, but it's translated a bit differently to your controls. Full deflection on your physical joystick is not necessarily equal to full deflection on the virtual stick. Moving your joystick all the way over translates instead to up to 50 lbs or so of pressure on the virtual stick. You can see this in game if you hold a control while gaining speed; as you go faster, the virtual stick moves back towards center because your pilot can't hold it all the way over with 50 lbs of pressure. If you're going fast enough in some planes you can barely move the stick at all. In several planes, the only way to pull out of a steep dive is to carfully use the trim to move the elevator (as *was* done in real life).

There isn't any trim "exploit" in game; it all works just as it should. You can occasionally pull the stick farther if you trim into a turn, but at any speed at which it could be a factor you're more likely to black out and rip the wings off the plane than to gain any advantage.

It's kind of confusing when you move the trim on the ground because the control stick is moved along with the trim. It really wouldn't have any effect at all if you changed trim when the plane was stationary, but then again, it doesn't take any stick force to hold the controls over when the plane is stationary, either. The stick force thing obviously doesn't work when the plane is on the ground, so it's different. The alternative would be for the sim to NOT move the control surface when you trim on the ground and instead allow the airflow to move the stick as you're taking off... which would not be pretty.

This whole debate is more uninformed speculation and pointless arguing than anything. If anyone can show that anything is *WRONG*, then it should be brought up, but no one so far has done anything of the sort.

First, even as a non-pilot I agree with pretty much everything you said. Just two clarifications:

1. Some aircraft, notably the 109, did not use tabs for in-flight trimming - the whole stab moved. Otherwise you are spot on and even the 109 has trim tabs for on-the-ground cruise trimming.

2. The faulty representation whereby the stick would move as you trimmed on the ground has been corrected, but the control surface deflection is still there unfortunately.


Thanks once again for your real world expertise and for confirming that the speeds at which trim now imparts a "turn-advantage" make it pointless to attempt bat-turns anyway.

Jetbuff
06-10-2005, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
Ah, ah, ah! That's not what I said, is it? I never mentioned high speed; it is irrelevent, because it's unrealistically modelled at both high speed and low speed. The fact is that in the game, even though you have your actual joystick all the way back, adding trim moves the elevator back further. And that does not happen in real life.
Stop spewing BS and go test it. I double-dare you to produce a track showing this false claim!

Oh, and just to be sure, check that you have your stick settings set properly eh; that might be your problem.

Jetbuff
06-10-2005, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
well there should be consistency

your real JS doesnt control the virtual one but your pilot

your real trim control shouldnt thus control your virtual trim wheel , but the pilot

Gibbage has a point

Gibbage does have a point, but consistency in approach and consistency in results are two different things. Modeling control of the virtual pilot serves a purpose that is functional. Modeling the virtual trim-wheel serves (what is imo at least) merely a semantic realism.

Like I've said before, I can't argue against modelling correct trim-speed for it's sake alone - everyone has a preference and mine is for modeling trim's accuracy. Neither side can really force their view on the other.

What I am arguing against is those people who keep spewing **** about bat-turns and other nonsense because they thought sloth-trim prevented that. It never has and never will. Go through this thread and check out how many people are still under that misguided illusion; you'll be surprised. Even Gibbage thought so, at least at first.

TX-EcoDragon
06-10-2005, 04:32 PM
OK, I wasn€t saying that trim should go from one extreme to the other instantly, rather just that the response delay is dependant only on the linkage delay, and the ergonomics of the trim lever/knob/wheel. In some aircraft that use a lever for trim it certainly can move in about .5 second from one end to the other and you better believe that the aerodynamic response will be rapid(though nobody would do it since it's impossible to modulate the forces and it loads up the airframe quite a lot in most of these designs). In aircraft with electric trim the response is slow, in aircraft with a wheel the response is often instant, but the mechanics of moving the wheel limits the speed that a LARGE trim change can be made.

All this talk about speed is a bit silly I think, since we have structural failures and some loss of control from blackouts now, which we didn't have back when the trim exploit was in it's prime. In any we could model each plane according to the type of trim actuation device it had, and that would be cool, but I don't think it's worth any effort since in real world flying the uses of trim are generally pretty similar, and the need to go from one extreme to the other simply isn't there, and doing so generally imposes a burden on the pilot more than it removes one. the oft mentioned 109 dive recovery method does not require an extreme amount of travel, and the recovery isn't generally made at 10 or 12Gs like most simmers pull. In combat, or any maneuvering, trim will be used to ease control pressures so that precise aircraft control can be maintained (otherwise aiming is pretty tough), and this means that the response needs to be both fast, and precise. That's how it should be in the sim too. The trouble is, as was said before, in most cases the trim tab if anything, reduces overall surface deflection in the real world aircraft since the tab moves opposite the direction of the elevator surface. And usually it doesn't change maximal available G, it simply reduces stick forces in a particular region of a fixed range of motion. I should also mention that I, as well as others involved in emergency maneuvers training etc, have tested many types of servo tabs and trim tabs in simulated (and actual) control jamming, and I can tell you that generally using trim in reverse provides very little change in aircraft attitude if the elevator surface is immobilized, a trim tab's resposne is the elevators motion, not that of the tab. While NonWonder is right that in a fully functional aircraft trim is very powerful, with a jammed surface, it's next to useless in most desings that use a tab, even the large antiservo tab on the stabiliator equipped aircraft. In the case of aircraft the trim the entire horizontal stabilizer that is another issue, you will still use power for attitude and ptich control, but will probably be able to adjust the aircraft attitude/trimmed speed somewhat with the trimmable horizontal stab.

I use trim on a hat switch and found the old trim near useless in any real world style of usage, I don't use a rotary for that, but I see after trying it that the application from one end to the other is pretty quick, though not like it once was back in IL-2. In addition, as has been said, the people who use the trim to make extremely tight maneuvers are probably doing it anyway with the infamous "RBJ shift" that we saw posted all over after trim was slowed down. I say, we retain realistic trim responses and if that means those guys have an easier time of it, and then I guess that's what it means . . . they are going to do it anyway. These people are usualy pretty obvious anyway, and they are blowing their E right out the door, so they shouldnt be too tough a target anyway since this maneuver really only has any advantage at high speeds, which they shoudn't sustain too long pulling 13Gs.

The best solution I can think of is to offer quick and precise response within a range of motion approximating one revolution of the trim wheel, and then a brief pause before we once again have that quick response . . . this will mostly closely emulate the feel of an aircraft with a trim wheel or knob that requires a turn then an adjustment of hand position and then another turn (as is the case in most of these aircraft we simulate here), this perhaps along with an adjustment to pilot strength (in one direction and in the range of the current flying speed) instead of total surface travel might solve our problems for good without reducing realistic use of the trim control.

TX-EcoDragon
06-10-2005, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
There isn't any trim "exploit" in game; it all works just as it should. You can occasionally pull the stick farther if you trim into a turn, but at any speed at which it could be a factor you're more likely to black out and rip the wings off the plane than to gain any advantage.

It's kind of confusing when you move the trim on the ground because the control stick is moved along with the trim. It really wouldn't have any effect at all if you changed trim when the plane was stationary, but then again, it doesn't take any stick force to hold the controls over when the plane is stationary, either. The stick force thing obviously doesn't work when the plane is on the ground, so it's different. The alternative would be for the sim to NOT move the control surface when you trim on the ground and instead allow the airflow to move the stick as you're taking off... which would not be pretty.

This whole debate is more uninformed speculation and pointless arguing than anything. If anyone can show that anything is *WRONG*, then it should be brought up, but no one so far has done anything of the sort.

This is an old issue, and there certainly were problems in how the trim reacted, as well as how the aircraft and virtual pilot reacted. There was no reason to avoid blackout, no structural failures, surface travel augmentation, and instant stop to stop travel of the trim wheel. None of this was "right." If the elevator moves 20 degrees up on an aircraft trimming nose up doesn€t give you 35 degrees . . . but that€s what it did in the sim, and it could do it at both end of the stick travel and with the flick of a slider. Trim is for reducing stick forces, not for increasing surface travel, and in the majority of these aircraft it took a few seconds to go from one end to the other, but not in the sim.
These were the points of our old debates.

In 4.00 the visual on the ground IS different than it used to be, pulling fully back on the stick, then adding in trim doesn't icnrease the total travel, I don't think many people have tested that, and that was a big part of the problem before. Of course now we also have blackouts that actually cause GILOC, and structural failures that limit people to less than 15G (ouch) so the problem is certainly reduced, but it's not totally gone. I just did a test of a maneuver that I do that uses both forward and aft pressures in back to back succession, and the trim response with the trim rotary enables me to have full nose down trim and then full nose up trim in the same time it takes for my joystick to go from one end to the other . . . that coupled with an overall increase in surface rate of travel in any way I chose is the issue that I think people are justified in having with this. In a plane like the sim P-51 there is probably no obvious need (even though the real one's I've flown are what most would call a two-hander when at speed), but fly the P-38 or the 109 and the utility of this presents itself. . . so the question is should people be able to undo the programming of the relative stick loadings with instant trim response at any position in the actuation of the trim? Does the current trim allow that?

If you think that this doesn't matter because the guy will shed a wing then you need to fly against people that do it. How about a 1V1 in a 109. . . you trim "realistically" and let him use his rotary, and then saddle up on him. The full up trim and full aft stick could be applied, and then neutralized so fast that it would give you a 180 from a vertical dive in very short order that was so fast that there was no blackout at all but the guy following will blackout since the G acts longer (this is correct though), even when we had GILOC introduced. Have I tested this in 4.00?? nope. . will I now that this is post brought it back to my attention? Yep!

I for one think that the compressibility effects on the 109 and P38 are too abrupt (though I've not flown either type, I know people who do) and overdone a bit so I can see why people were doing this, and the P-51's firmness at speed is absent, and I do fly the 51, for aggressive flying it's a two hander at speed and I'm no weakling. These are all issues that existed in the sim, and I don't think the trim itself is much of a big one anymore as and the overall surface travel doesn't appear to change anymore in 4.00, but it's rapid repositioning from one end to the other end of the travel isn't quite right in most instances either and this is what we need to test in 4.00.

I haven't really tested this in 4.00 to know if this issue really exists anymore, and I think most people simply observed that the trim feels like it used to when flying, and perhaps did post a little too soon, but this is in GD, so maybe tehy jsut wanted to get community confirmation since if it's like before people who use the keyboard or hatswitch for trim actuation and who fly in close quarters at medium to high speeds to someone who uses a rotary, who knows its applications, with all else being equal, they will be at a disadvantage if manevuerability is relied apon because unlike the normal small usages of trim, it can be thrown around like another stick. You might not be able to use it in any way that you feel is an exploit, and many people just got the leaked 4.00 if they have it at all so I dont think you should expect great tests and documentation at this point, we already know the old way had problems, and this might remind people of that old system, this might be much ado about nothing if the trim is actually finally perfect, but nobody has proven that either. I for one am curious, so I'm off to try it out!


EDIT:

Well, I for one am pretty happy with the trim, in the 109 I have a transit time of about 3 seconds from full up to full down using my rotary on the X-45. I'd say that's a bit fast for a full up to down transit that should be slowed down a little for the sake of accuracy, but it's not so fast to bring back our old "Bat-Turn" Also, it appears that holding down my hat switch will trim it at the same rate, so people with sliders and people with hatswitches or keyboard actuated trim should be more or less on equal footing now.

I think this is a pretty good compromise myself, it could be made a little more truwe to reality (I sure cant go from full up to full down trim on th wheels in the 51 in just under 3!), but that's true of everyhting in a flight sim, I think the unfair advantage factor is gone though.

AerialTarget
06-11-2005, 12:26 AM
Whoah, whoah, whoah. You've flown a real P-51? You've actually not only laid hands on but sat in and also actually flown an actual warbird!

The closest I've ever gotten to flying a warbird was a flight in the back seat of a Texan when I was so small that I had to sit on someone's lap for the harness to fit me. At least, I think it was a Texan; the guy owned a P-51 and a World War Two trainer which I believe was a Texan.

Sadly, he died in the P-51 with his passenger when the engine failed on approach.

Gibbage1
06-11-2005, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
Whoah, whoah, whoah. You've flown a real P-51? You've actually not only laid hands on but sat in and also actually flown an actual warbird!

The closest I've ever gotten to flying a warbird was a flight in the back seat of a Texan when I was so small that I had to sit on someone's lap for the harness to fit me. At least, I think it was a Texan; the guy owned a P-51 and a World War Two trainer which I believe was a Texan.

Sadly, he died in the P-51 with his passenger when the engine failed on approach.

If you look in his sig, that little red aircraft is what he normally fly's (if I remember correctly). There are some very skilled pilots who visit here.

AerialTarget
06-11-2005, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Stop spewing BS and go test it. I double-dare you to produce a track showing this false claim!

Here! (http://users.adelphia.net/~j.r.engdahl/josh/Incorrect%20Trim.TRK)

Here is the proof that trim is incorrectly modelled. Watch the track first with manual view control off, and then again with it on. The second time, note the control column position and the trim wheel.

From the time that I fire my guns the first time until my virtual pilot blacks out and I fire my guns the second time, my joystick is fully back against its gimbal limits. My curve settings are all one hundred. My joystick is calibrated.

Now here's the thing. When you watch it with manual view control, notice that the virtual control column is back the entire time that I mentioned. Yet, when you watch it with manual view control off, you will see that the elevator moves quite drastically as the airspeed increases and then again as I trim the airplane.

What this shows is that not only does the elevator change deflection when my physical gaming joystick is immobile, which is unrealistic enough, but that the elevator changes deflection independently of the virtual control column in the game. In other words, this track shows a physical impossibility. It absolutely cannot happen in real life unless the control cables have snapped.

As I've stated many times, I by no means blame game developers for this. While the physical impossibility of the elevator moving independently of the virtual control column is indeed poor trim modelling (which apparently has been fixed in the patch), the fact remains that no matter how well trim is modelled, it cannot be correctly done except for in one way. The player must have a force feedback joystick able to continually withstand at least a two hundred pound pull. This joystick must be linked with special software to the virtual control column so that they are always in the exact same position. Lastly, the trim should do no more than make it easier to move the phyisical joystick.

Ugly_Kid
06-11-2005, 05:58 AM
Maybe it's just a misunderstanding. The joystick on your desk controls how much the "virtual pilot" applies force on the "virtual stick" not how much he physically moves it. At low speed area you will of course get the full physical deflection up to the control limits but the faster you go the less the virtual pilot is able to deflect the virtual controls, hence the stick moves forth...Now applying trim has the effect of shifting the so-called neutral position and thus relieving the control forces. In real life if you flew fast you'd need to push the stick all the time, if you applied trim you could neutralize the control forces and you would maintain the velocity without further necessity to push the stick (the stick would be now trimmed to remain in the position where you were formerly pushing it). Now same here, think the stick and control forces as the spring. You use all your force to tension it, until you can't go any further anymore. Then you'd relieve the neutral position a bit and you could actually push a bit further again.

Think of a bow. You hold it with your left hand and strain the string with right hand, until you reach the limit of your force http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Now move the left hand with the bow towards yourself and voila, you can again pull your right hand even further back http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif - you just trimmed with your left hand http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The virtual stick movement doesn't follow joystick as soon as the control forces start having an influence.

Jetbuff
06-11-2005, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
Ah, ah, ah! That's not what I said, is it? I never mentioned high speed; it is irrelevent, because it's unrealistically modelled at both high speed and low speed. The fact is that in the game, even though you have your actual joystick all the way back, adding trim moves the elevator back further. And that does not happen in real life.

AerialTarget, that track proves nothing because you were at high speed. You were so fast, you blacked out when you applied trim. (TAS does not equal IAS) Look at your quote above and tell me you have proved what you said was possible - i.e. that trim could increase the available deflection at any speed. Try this to get my point. On the ground (0 airspeed) pull the stick all the way back. Now add full nose-up elevator, does your elevator position change? No? Good, the same happens all the way up to 500kph IAS on the deck. Above that speed, yes you can turn "harder" with trim assist which is aerodynamically sound in principle. Whether you'd actually want to do so given the high likelihood of adverse results is what will stop bat-turners.

NonWonderDog
06-11-2005, 01:10 PM
Hmm. It would appear that trim doesn't actually influence the center position of the control stick ingame, only the control surfaces. This is a visual bug only, otherwise trim still works correctly in the newest patch.

So, yes. In the game, trim moves the control surfaces independently of the control stick. This is wrong. The visual representation of trim is incorrect in this regard, but the sim still handles the effects of trim correctly in 4.00.


AerialTarget, if you're trying to prove that 3.04 is wrong, no one's going to argue. 4.00 fixes this. There is no logic or purpose behind arguing for something to be changed when it already has been!

decker_runner
06-11-2005, 01:31 PM
decker hi
well ive tryed 4.00m an my joystick gone amiss
or to much trim on the rudders,good wether has no clouds,haze i get clouds,aprt from that i have2600+amd athion xp
nvidia geforce fx 5600xt card
1gb of ram,at 1024x768x32 set at excellent,ive try perfect but lags after awhile then locks up
hope this some help if eney.waiting to see 401.asp ty ~s

AerialTarget
06-11-2005, 01:33 PM
Jetbuff is arguing that the trim is correct in three point zero four. I don't have four point zero.

Jetbuff, did you even read my post with my track? Whatever you say, the fact remains that my post and track proves that the trim in three point four is unrealistic. I've done the ground test, and you are correct in that the graphical model for the elevator does not move further with trim once the stick is back all the way. However, when your airplane is moving, no matter what the speed, the effect shown in my track happens. I will record another when I get home from work to prove that the slow speed trim is as unrealistic as the high speed trim.

Jetbuff
06-11-2005, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
Hmm. It would appear that trim doesn't actually influence the center position of the control stick ingame, only the control surfaces. This is a visual bug only, otherwise trim still works correctly in the newest patch.
Yeah, that surprised me quite a bit. Thankfully it's only a visual bug. The funny thing is, there was someone in this very thread who complained about the virtual stick "re-positioning" in response to trim. He obviously did not actually test it. I never noticed either, as I had expected it to be 3.04m style - it isn't - and was more focused on the external behaviour of the plane in terms of turn circle and stress damage.

AerialTarget
06-11-2005, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Thankfully it's only a visual bug.

This is a nice scapegoat, but this "visual bug" is indicative of the general wrongness of the trim model. Let me requote part of my post that you apparently did not read.


Originally posted by AerialTarget:
What this shows is that not only does the elevator change deflection when my physical gaming joystick is immobile, which is unrealistic enough, but that the elevator changes deflection independently of the virtual control column in the game. In other words, this track shows a physical impossibility. It absolutely cannot happen in real life unless the control cables have snapped.

As I've stated many times, I by no means blame game developers for this. While the physical impossibility of the elevator moving independently of the virtual control column is indeed poor trim modelling (which apparently has been fixed in the patch), the fact remains that no matter how well trim is modelled, it cannot be correctly done except for in one way. The player must have a force feedback joystick able to continually withstand at least a two hundred pound pull. This joystick must be linked with special software to the virtual control column so that they are always in the exact same position. Lastly, the trim should do no more than make it easier to move the phyisical joystick.

The system is wrong. By no means will control surfaces move independently of the stick in real life unless your control cables are broken. Trim doesn't do that, certainly. That it happens in the game is a serious problem with the entire trim system and not merely "a graphical bug."

Jetbuff
06-11-2005, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
The system is wrong. By no means will control surfaces move independently of the stick in real life unless your control cables are broken. Trim doesn't do that, certainly. That it happens in the game is a serious problem with the entire trim system and not merely "a graphical bug."
How can it be a "serious problem" when there is no effect in terms of turn-rate?

TX-EcoDragon
06-11-2005, 03:24 PM
WTF? Some of you guys just want to complain don't you? Perhaps it's not that, maybe you don't understand how this sim models your joystick inputs as a sort of pilot command. If you pull all the way back on the stick the elevator will deflect as far as your virtual pilot can physically pull it. The idea by the code writers is to model some sense of the feel of the particular aircraft. So suppose the pilot model is set so that it can only pull 80 pounds with the right arm, that means that a full pull on the joystick commands an 80 lb pull by the pilot. . . since the pounds/G usually varies with speed the total G you can pull will change. Trim acts to reduce stick force, thusly you can see that the lbs/G can be shifted with trim. Since you pulling the stick all the way back is requesting the maximal pull the pilot can muster the surface WILL move as trim lessens the force required to hold/move the surface, and it also will move even if you leave trim alone as airspeed changes. If it honestly bothers you that much that the stick moves on the ground with trim application then I think perhaps you need to look outside the cockpit as you taxi, which is a good idea with all the people trying to figure out how to takeoff that go careening onto the ramp! :-D The effects in flight in 4.00 are pretty darn good, the best this sim series has seen. . .Good Job Oleg and 1C!

I think if the total transit time could be reduced somewhat for knob/wheel actuated trim by means of a short pause each second or so (to simulate a hand position change) and left alone for lever equipped aircraft the trim would be fine. I tried the old "Bat-Turn" maneuver and the aircraft response is much like you get in a real aircraft, it's just a bit faster and smoother (this goes a long way to why its easier to trim during maneuvering in the sim than in real aircraft which are pretty abrupt in response to the trim changes) than you'd get turning a wheel through multiple revolutions.

Bottom line . . . next subject. . .

NonWonderDog
06-11-2005, 03:39 PM
I think the problem now is that the control surfaces move when you trim but the stick doesn't. They really shouldn't move independently, and I've posted it to the bug report thread.

The control surfaces moving on the ground when you trim is really the only way it can be done, but the control stick should move along with them. Just pretend there's a headwind, because stick force based controls don't work when it requires zero stick force to hold the controls to one side. It might stop some complaining if people could see what was happening from the cockpit, too.

The rudder pedals already do this, by the way.

TX-EcoDragon
06-11-2005, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
I think the problem now is that the control surfaces move when you trim but the stick doesn't. They really shouldn't move independently, and I've posted it to the bug report thread.

The control surfaces moving on the ground when you trim is really the only way it can be done, but the control stick should move along with them. Just pretend there's a headwind, because stick force based controls don't work when it requires zero stick force to hold the controls to one side. It might stop some complaining if people could see what was happening from the cockpit, too.

The rudder pedals already do this, by the way.

Huh?
I don't know what plane you are testing, but in the ones I have trimmed while watching the stick both the stick and surfaces move inflight and on the ground with the trim inputs. There is no disconnect. In and of itself the motion on the ground when stationary isn't realistic for these particular aircraft (jsut pretend it's windy), but I am not going to lose any sleep over it since it really doesn't matter to the FM/DM/Gameplay or anything really.

If we want it improved by making this only happen when at flying speed then by all means report it (as I did 3 years ago). I for one am a stickler for realism, and I just don't seem to care anymore about the stick and surfaces moving when the aircraft is stationary. . .I heard what Oleg had to say about modeling flying surfaces when at taxi speeds, and that they would have to re-write a lote of the code to change it. If they did that there are other things that actually matter that I'd rather have them look into. I accept that it's a compromise they made that only matters if you trim on the ground while looking at the stick. . . which isn't realistic in the first place if we are splitting hairs. . . though it is sort of handy if you dont have any other trim position indicators to see the stick move.

NonWonderDog
06-11-2005, 04:18 PM
Well that *is* odd. I just tested a bunch of random planes in QMB, and the only ones that moved the control stick when I trimmed were the Bf-109s, even though all planes responded as if the control stick had been moved.

All planes move the rudder pedals when you apply rudder trim.

Off the top of my head, I saw disconnected controls in the P-51, P-38, FW-190, IL-2, Yak-3, A-20, F-4U, F-4F, and a few others.

Are you seeing the same thing? Or am I just experiencing some weird hardware bug?

I think it worked back in 3.04...

TX-EcoDragon
06-11-2005, 04:37 PM
That is strange.

no, it's not on your end, I see the same. I see it that way in 3.04 too. Just the 109s show the stick moving. I for one have never actually noticed the stick move as a response to trim in the real world either, though I am not trying bat-turns in anything that requires trim to do it :-D In any case, trim indicators or not the stick should move somewhat as trim is changed. . . though I still don't think it's the end of the world provided the aerodynamics work as they should, which I have tested in most main families of aircraft, and it pretty much does.

I was last testing this in various 109s since those where the most frequent bat turners (since they have the worst high speed elevator, till the P-38 came along) and did observe the stick moving when I did a ground test, many of the other aircraft have trim position inidactors, maybe they got rid of it since I'd say people are going to see it move on the ground, and not in the air, even if it does move, so they stopped the stick motion, (I know I had mentioned in ORR that the stick moved on the ground with trim applications way back when) which I think used to be there in everything with trim at some point, maybe back in original IL-2. Some aircraft do use centering springs for trim and those would casue the stick to move on the ground as you trim it. . . maybe our 109 has a little skunkwors background!!

LEXX_Luthor
06-11-2005, 05:02 PM
Tx and Buff, try the 4.0m MiG~3. Its one of the original IL~2 planes (I think), and I always found MiG elevator trim to be fairly usable when mapped to mouse wheel. Maybe I just got used to it under the crippled trim, and learned to predict how much trim I needed.

More important...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif how is MiG~3 under New FM especially at low speeds?

Jetbuff
06-11-2005, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
Jetbuff is arguing that the trim is correct in three point zero four. I don't have four point zero.
Negative. Where in God's name did you get that indication? I argued that trim was correct, as far as making bat-turns redundant, in 4.0m. Do not put words in my mouth. I never once referred to 3.04m trim.

Jetbuff, did you even read my post with my track? Whatever you say, the fact remains that my post and track proves that the trim in three point four is unrealistic. I've done the ground test, and you are correct in that the graphical model for the elevator does not move further with trim once the stick is back all the way. However, when your airplane is moving, no matter what the speed, the effect shown in my track happens. I will record another when I get home from work to prove that the slow speed trim is as unrealistic as the high speed trim.
Yes, I saw your track, however, now that you have cleared up that you were using 3.04 your claims make more sense. BTW, I played it back in 4.0 and could see your stick was not fully deflected at the start and wondered why.

Jetbuff
06-11-2005, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by TX-EcoDragon:
That is strange.

no, it's not on your end, I see the same. I see it that way in 3.04 too. Just the 109s show the stick moving. I for one have never actually noticed the stick move as a response to trim in the real world either, though I am not trying bat-turns in anything that requires trim to do it :-D In any case, trim indicators or not the stick should move somewhat as trim is changed. . . though I still don't think it's the end of the world provided the aerodynamics work as they should, which I have tested in most main families of aircraft, and it pretty much does.

I was last testing this in various 109s since those where the most frequent bat turners (since they have the worst high speed elevator, till the P-38 came along) and did observe the stick moving when I did a ground test, many of the other aircraft have trim position inidactors, maybe they got rid of it since I'd say people are going to see it move on the ground, and not in the air, even if it does move, so they stopped the stick motion, (I know I had mentioned in ORR that the stick moved on the ground with trim applications way back when) which I think used to be there in everything with trim at some point, maybe back in original IL-2. Some aircraft do use centering springs for trim and those would casue the stick to move on the ground as you trim it. . . maybe our 109 has a little skunkwors background!!
You know what the funny thing is guys? The 109 should be the only plane where the stick DOESN'T move with trimming. Why? It's entire horizontal stab was moved by the in cockpit trim. Now I don't know the linkage mecanism between stick and elevators in the 109, but it might be feasible that it is connected in such a way that moving the stab does not change stick position.

In all other planes, where the trim tab is moved, and hence the elevator, trim SHOULD change the position of the virtual stick.

Jetbuff
06-11-2005, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Tx and Buff, try the 4.0m MiG~3. Its one of the original IL~2 planes (I think), and I always found MiG elevator trim to be fairly usable when mapped to mouse wheel. Maybe I just got used to it under the crippled trim, and learned to predict how much trim I needed.

More important...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif how is MiG~3 under New FM especially at low speeds?

Haven't had the time to try the Mig-3's trim response. However, the Mig's slow speed handling is, well, funny. However, I only tested it on the deck, hardly the Mig's preferred playing ground. I did note that it's roll-rate is not stellar at low speeds; it's impressive at speeds between 300kph and 500kph. She was also very light on the elevator through most of the speed range I tested. (light plane = lower inertia?) Stalls are rather abrupt like in the original IL-2 but I could recover quickly due to similarly responsive rudder. Sorry I couldn't provide a more in-depth run-down but I still haven't had the opportunity to fly all the planes as much as I'd like to.

What I have noticed overall is that planes like the P-39, P-40 and Mig that had a nasty reputation with regards to stalls are definitely not happy at low speeds. At high speeds they are a pure joy to fly. This, coupled with the wider variety and higher fidelity of stalls makes them a lot more interesting to fly.

LEXX_Luthor
06-11-2005, 07:36 PM
http://www.boardy.de/images/smilies/ylflower.gif


Jetbuff::
What I have noticed overall is that planes like the P-39, P-40 and Mig that had a nasty reputation with regards to stalls are definitely not happy at low speeds. At high speeds they are a pure joy to fly. This, coupled with the wider variety and higher fidelity of stalls makes them a lot more interesting to fly.
Thanks Jetbuff, that's what I am looking for.

AerialTarget
06-11-2005, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
What I have noticed overall is that planes like the P-39, P-40 and Mig that had a nasty reputation with regards to stalls are definitely not happy at low speeds. At high speeds they are a pure joy to fly. This, coupled with the wider variety and higher fidelity of stalls makes them a lot more interesting to fly.

The real life P-39 Airacobra stalled straight in a slow stall, just like the P-38 Lightning and P-47 Thunderbolt. Where did the bad reputation come from? I know it's not just you, because it's modelled to be a nasty staller in the game, and also because I thought the same thing until I watched the official training video.

Jetbuff
06-11-2005, 10:26 PM
Apparently the bad rep has to do with the CoG being so far back (mid-engined plane) that once it got into a flat spin it was hard to get our of it. I must admit I haven't really questioned this reputation and took it for granted based on "pop culture" if you will.

TX-EcoDragon
06-11-2005, 10:37 PM
I think part of the issue is that it develops a failry strong oscillation that distrubs the airflow over the surfaces enough that they don't have all that much authority unless you can smooth things out a bit. The P-39 recoverry starts out with PRO-spin inputs for a period of time long enough to dampen the oscilaltions and restore sufficiently smooth airflow over teh surfaces to allow a recovery. In other words, if you are in an upright spin tot eh left you would need to hold the stick back, and kick kick left rudder before making recovery inputs.

AerialTarget
06-12-2005, 03:49 AM
This is probably very well true; I have not yet delved into P-39 accellerated stalls. But if you grab the training video from Zeno's warbird video site, you will see that it has a rather gentle slow stall, with no tendency to dip a wing.

decker_runner
06-12-2005, 07:47 AM
decker
hi just leve the 304. setting for the joystick ?cos if it works dont fix it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifi have a force feed stick towhich has bit more twist on the rudder again it still doznt do what it doze on the 4. patch,an as for the rest it doze look good an the maps is cool,if it is that i have to change my way of flying ??it just that the amount of spining that happened i fault a this ant right surely apart from that ~s to the ppl that take this on say so ? an try an fix these bugs ect ect .