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View Full Version : Radical idea: Unviable Defense



Amerikanovich
09-29-2019, 09:05 AM
One of the main topics everyone is talking about with this game is the turtle meta vs. viable offense, with solutions being more and more characters getting complex mind-game moves that are almost impossible to predict as a way to break through the opponents defenses.
Once people get good enough at the game, it becomes necessary to rely on these tactics to get anywhere at all, and the whole game becomes a confusing mass of stunlocking and bashing where people who pick the meta heroes always win.
In this vein, it has become apparent that the reflex guard of the assassin classes is a major handicap since all other classes are getting better and better to give them viable offense, while still having superior blocking capabilities, and thus the discussion has started about whether it is really necessary for assassins to even have reflex guard anymore.
My counter suggestion: the problem is not that the offense isn't good enough, but rather that the defense is too good (in general).

I think we shouldn't be getting rid of reflex guard, but rather making it standard across the board (except for characters who obviously have superior blocking capabilities like shield characters).
I'm not entirely sure what effect this would have on the meta of the game, and changes would have to be made to the offense to stop it from becoming a light-spam fest, but I think it would shift the combat from a turtle meta to a more tactical trading-of-blows back and forth, like the classic fighting games where blocking was a purposeful action instead of a passive trait.
When the default is that characters are open to attacks, every form of offense becomes viable and the reliance on unreactable combos diminishes.
The block timing could be balanced between classes, maybe with shield characters even also having reflex guard, but with the longest duration (or a standard block with a health bar instead of a timer that absorbs a certain amount of hits before breaking and having to recharge).

It might be an entertaining testing grounds event to just give every class reflex guard and see what happens.

Discuss.

Goat_of_Vermund
09-29-2019, 11:41 AM
I would definetely put this into testing ground. Along with a buff where oos stamina state merely hinders your defense and makes you unbalanced if parried or thrown, not completely rips the control from you. The game is really, really slow now, 120 stamina is not enough for anything, and there are lots of heroes whose offense is mostly gone if you passively guard a direction (like top against lawbringer takes out the strongest part of his offense).

Amerikanovich
09-30-2019, 07:23 PM
Wow this thread really flopped on it's face...not even negative criticism :'(

Vendelkin
10-01-2019, 01:38 PM
One of the main topics everyone is talking about with this game is the turtle meta vs. viable offense, with solutions being more and more characters getting complex mind-game moves that are almost impossible to predict as a way to break through the opponents defenses.
Once people get good enough at the game, it becomes necessary to rely on these tactics to get anywhere at all, and the whole game becomes a confusing mass of stunlocking and bashing where people who pick the meta heroes always win.
In this vein, it has become apparent that the reflex guard of the assassin classes is a major handicap since all other classes are getting better and better to give them viable offense, while still having superior blocking capabilities, and thus the discussion has started about whether it is really necessary for assassins to even have reflex guard anymore.
My counter suggestion: the problem is not that the offense isn't good enough, but rather that the defense is too good (in general).

I think we shouldn't be getting rid of reflex guard, but rather making it standard across the board (except for characters who obviously have superior blocking capabilities like shield characters).
I'm not entirely sure what effect this would have on the meta of the game, and changes would have to be made to the offense to stop it from becoming a light-spam fest, but I think it would shift the combat from a turtle meta to a more tactical trading-of-blows back and forth, like the classic fighting games where blocking was a purposeful action instead of a passive trait.
When the default is that characters are open to attacks, every form of offense becomes viable and the reliance on unreactable combos diminishes.
The block timing could be balanced between classes, maybe with shield characters even also having reflex guard, but with the longest duration (or a standard block with a health bar instead of a timer that absorbs a certain amount of hits before breaking and having to recharge).

It might be an entertaining testing grounds event to just give every class reflex guard and see what happens.

Discuss.
I could get behind this idea. Ive been long in the camp of "remove reflex guard give assassins regular block" but id be quite happy with this switch up too. It would be a mild indirect buff to ganking tho id bet.

Regardless something needs to be done about the disparity between assassin defense and the rest of the cast

Knight_Raime
10-01-2019, 05:11 PM
The developers have already answered this. They're not for changing everyone's guard to one specific kind. This can be assumed to mean they wouldn't be okay with making universal guard changes of any kind. So my idea of a guard health system (basically everyone has static until guard is broken then you briefly have reflex) is also quite unlikely.

There is very few issues with either guard type to be honest. In static guards case it's because they can continue to guard even on dodge (some heros even get their guard switched to the direction they dodge in.) In reflexes case (imo) blocking multiple attacks in quick succession is obnoxious since you're forced to refresh the block everytime you do block.

Honestly blocking itself aside from those two things doesn't need to be addressed. Offense itself needs to be looked at. Making strong mix ups is good and something they still need to work at. But more so they need to look at chain offense and the stamina system. Stamina multipliers need to go in favor of a flat cost system. Having more stamina means more attacks can be thrown and more mix ups can be attempted. They're already sort of tackling chain offense via shortening chain finisher recoveries and making chained attacks have varied ms increments. But a little more could be done. Like giving enhanced light openers to heros who don't naturally have a strong way in from the beginning/heros who rely more on chains in general.
Making feints harder to react to should also be something they are working on.

The only other sort of offense/defense thing that I think should happen eventually is giving everyone some sort of way to punish bashes after dodging. Not giving everyone a dodge attack per se. But something. Jorge for instance can punish some bashes by dodging and then doing his neutral bash. We can't simply increase the recovery on whiffed bashes across the board allowing people to get GB's. As GB's are a very strong potential punish. either through a heavy, wall splat, or environmental kill. And I think that whatever these options would be they should lead into chains or said hero's mix ups. This again would add a nice back and forth flow instead of someone just standing and waiting to get a proper dodge read GB punish and going right back to the same thing.