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Sama51
02-12-2006, 07:43 AM
There is all this talk of wobble this and wobble that. Well what exactly are the wobbles? I've never downloaded a track so one would be appreciated...

Is it just the plane being very unstable and fluttery while making control inputs? If this is the case, is it the acutal movement of the control surfaces causing this because its modeled in the FM, or does the plane just move and wobble on its own without movement of the control surfaces. Is this induced by your joystick/controller settings or by the softwarwe itself?

As many discussions as I've read about it, I've only seen it referred to as the 'wobbles', never described. Thanks for the help!

rnzoli
02-12-2006, 07:54 AM
It would be worthwhile to gather all pieces of information about "wobbles" in a single sticky thread.

Wobble = unexplained and uncontrollable instability of the airplane.

There are many possible reasons:
- the intended Flight Model (torque, inertia, trimming etc.), which is explained pretty well by Tully at the top
- incompatibility with IL2 software and the rest of the PC (core.dll, sound card effects etc.)
- the joystick (high sensitivity, worn-out pots)
- the user (pilot-induced, self-feeding oscillations).

While it is generally agreed, that the instability is correctly modelled in IL2 (planes should not move on rails), the extent and the circumstances of some instability is beyond proper explanation at the moment. Strange movement of control surfaces, extrement vibration during strafing, nose bobbling in steady turns are suspected to "bad" wobbles.

Sama51
02-12-2006, 09:11 AM
Hmmm, I was never sure what they were so it was impossible to know if I had it. Is it fairly easy to notice if you have the wobbles?

rnzoli
02-12-2006, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by Sama51:
Hmmm, I was never sure what they were so it was impossible to know if I had it. Is it fairly easy to notice if you have the wobbles?
Unfortunately not so easy at all, and this complicates the whole issue.

Due to the new FM in the 4.x versions, there IS always a 'normal' level of instability, which is possible to get under control with practice etc. Some planes also exhibit more or less, due to their design (e.g., center of gravity). The question is more like "Do you have wobble that seems too high and uncontrollable?" Some people feel they have everything under control, so don't worry about instability. Some others feel the instability is frustratingly high. Perhaps they talk about the same behaviour, but their experience and expectation is different.

Nothing highlights the nasty subtle effect of wobbling than my own example. I have fiddled with my joystick with no end, and when it moved like silk and sensitivity was toned down, I still had huge problems with hitting things effectively. After hours and hours of training in QMB, I simply could not belive, that some people blow up aircraft in the air, saw off their wings etc, but whenever I start to shoot, it never happened. After a few frustrated comments on these forums, a kind person pointed out a strange error in the conf.ini file, which caused too high yaw during gun firing, and consequntly a very large dispersion of bullets, unable to do significant damage. It took me a few tries before I actually believe that it worked, because I still had instability and yawing, but to a lesser degree, allowing to saw off wings, blow up aircraft... just the way others do.

No miracles though - I still have instability problems and have to be extra careful with controls. But the most annoying one has been solved, and the rest I can hopefully learn, predict and handle properly.

Are you better informed now? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Or this is just the beginning of YOUR dilemmas? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

lowfighter
02-12-2006, 11:43 AM
One thing I found very interesting: LeBillfish reported (in 4.02) that she got back the wobbles, after a period of not having them. This was confirmed by Icefire, saying that to him wobbles come and go with no rule. Then with 4.03 came ImpStarDuece with the wobble comming progresively as he launches quick missions. This type of experiences can't be dismissed, with or without track http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

thefarb2
02-12-2006, 01:25 PM
I only get wobbles when aiming, hard to get and keep sight on target, as compared to lets say 3.04.

redfeathers1948
02-12-2006, 08:06 PM
Hello, yes I believe I had the 'wobbles' so I uninstalled everything and started reinstalling with Forgotten Battles first. Then Ace Expansion Pack. Then Pacific Fighters.
I flew QMB P-40 M default after each install. Forgotten Battles. No probs. Ace Expansion Pack. No probs. Pacific Fighters. No probs.
Note: After install of Pacific Fighters I needed to overright the installed rts.dll (1.24kb) with the fix rts.dll (104kb).before I could start the game with the PF+FB+AEP icon.
I will start installing patches next

VW-IceFire
02-12-2006, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by Sama51:
There is all this talk of wobble this and wobble that. Well what exactly are the wobbles? I've never downloaded a track so one would be appreciated...

Is it just the plane being very unstable and fluttery while making control inputs? If this is the case, is it the acutal movement of the control surfaces causing this because its modeled in the FM, or does the plane just move and wobble on its own without movement of the control surfaces. Is this induced by your joystick/controller settings or by the softwarwe itself?

As many discussions as I've read about it, I've only seen it referred to as the 'wobbles', never described. Thanks for the help!
Its like this...

You roll your plane 30 degrees in a calm and normal fashion. A gentle manuever by all rights...except that with the wobbles your nose is now moving back and forth by 10-15 degrees at a time and this can last upto 4 or 5 seconds.

This happens for every move that you make...regardless of how gentle it us or how controlled or co-ordinated you are with the joystick.

Even when you modify the joystick sensitivity it has little effect as the resulting moves come from some sort of effect caused after the move of the stick.

Now imagine trying to fly air combat like this where every move of the stick, every minor correction sends your nose moving around in a significant fashion...you just can't hit anything reliably. The worst part of this is that the problem is limited to a unknown factor that means it does not happen on some peoples computers.

Which means that, unfortunately, there are some people out there who don't believe the problem even exists and are downright abusive in their behavior to the people who are having the problem.

I had no problem with 4.01, I had SIGNIFICANT problems with 4.02 and after reformatting and being very careful I managed to get it more or less wobble free except on a few types of aircraft.

4.03 is back to being very smooth and controllable. Some aircraft still wander a bit but not in any significant or unpredictable fashion...this I would expect from a sophisticated FM system and it seems to feel like the aircraft being in flight.

redfeathers1948
02-12-2006, 09:19 PM
My update to reinstalation: I installed patches 3.03m,3.04m and 4.01m flew QMB P-40M and everything worked fine. Patched 4.02m. Same results no bounce. Final install was the 4.03 patch and no bounce. Only thing differnt between this total install from the last total installation that I uninstalled was I didnt mess with il2 core.dll or il2 coreP4.dll.
I have a Dell P4 3.8 and ATI Raedon 850xt. I use the Saitek X-52 Hotas. I also flew the Corsair F4U 1D to a full stop landing. I didnt change anything in the conf.ini and did not use any trim.
In summation I havent a clue what caused the oversensitivity of the flight model or 'bounce' if you will of my previous install. Just for your info.

NonWonderDog
02-13-2006, 02:54 AM
You roll your plane 30 degrees in a calm and normal fashion. A gentle manuever by all rights...except that with the wobbles your nose is now moving back and forth by 10-15 degrees at a time and this can last upto 4 or 5 seconds.

Has anyone ever recorded a track of this behavior?