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Justifi3d
09-05-2019, 06:22 AM
So I noticed that there's been no mention about nerfing him despite him being out of control for what seems like months now.

AlphawolfyUP
09-05-2019, 01:05 PM
Sadly enough we have bigger problems, eg. Hitorkiri :/ Once (if) she is dealt with, I'm sure attention will turn to raider again.

o...Frank...o
09-05-2019, 01:47 PM
Nerfing raider? Because of what?

He only can switch from heavies into GB or lights. Turn your defence above and you block 50% of his attacks..... Pffffff

I think there are bigger "Problems": light, hit, light, hit spamming Jormuns. A Centurio who gets out of control after the new patch............etc

TOCKSYK
09-05-2019, 02:01 PM
Nerfing raider? Because of what?

He only can switch from heavies into GB or lights. Turn your defence above and you block 50% of his attacks..... Pffffff

I think there are bigger "Problems": light, hit, light, hit spamming Jormuns. A Centurio who gets out of control after the new patch............etc

raider takes half your health on a heavy and can chain into a 50 damage zone that can be soft feinted into a gb or a 333 ms attack that blinds you and chains again into a 50 dmg zone but this time if you're blinded you gotta completely guess what he is doing cause you have no HUD

I know you like Easy mode, but you should really consider that there are people that play bad characters and still have fun, and characters like Raider and Hito really ruin the fun for everybody

Damage nerf and make stun tap 466 ms and undelayable.

Klingentaenz3r
09-05-2019, 02:15 PM
So I noticed that there's been no mention about nerfing him despite him being out of control for what seems like months now.

yeah, the balancing team's humor is quite on another level. Probably in the sadistic realm of things. *chuckles, and weeps a bit after*

o...Frank...o
09-05-2019, 02:46 PM
@AmonDarkGod - Thats your opinion! My opinion is: Donīt nerf Raider - Nerf Jormun and Centurio!!

@Tocksyk: If you are unable to parry the slow Raider Zone, than you should play a little more FH...... And I donīt believe that 1 heavy reduce half of the health.
You should learn to parry zone and keep your defence above........
80% of his attacks are to the head or zone. Itīs simple except he makes his GBīs between his actions......

TOCKSYK
09-05-2019, 02:47 PM
Raider has been around more and he is the top tier pick among all heroes he needs to be nerfed first. Not to mention Raider deals 10x more damage than Hito ever can

true

TOCKSYK
09-05-2019, 02:50 PM
@AmonDarkGod - Thats your opinion! My opinion is: Donīt nerf Raider - Nerf Jormun and Centurio!!

@Tocksyk: If you are unable to parry the slow Raider Zone, than you should play a little more FH...... And I donīt believe that 1 heavy reduce half of the health.
You should learn to parry zone and keep your defence above........
80% of his attacks are to the head or zone. Itīs simple except he makes his GBīs between his actions......

this dude is really saying nerf jormungandr and centurion. Jormungandr BARELY has offense, Centurion will have only one mix up and that can be interrupted by a 500 ms light or dodging backwards and rolling

Raider's zone is 50 dmg and can be softfeinted into 2 different things that are countered in 2 different ways. He does too much damage with a wopping 45 dmg Heavy and the fastest 50 dmg unblockable in the game that has the best soft feints in the game. Centurion's heavy is 25 and after the rework it's slower and has more gb vulnerability. What Centurion does on an entire mix up that gets you on the ground, Raider can do in 1 heavy

Grow up dude

Siegfried-Z
09-05-2019, 02:50 PM
Sadly enough we have bigger problems, eg. Hitorkiri :/ Once (if) she is dealt with, I'm sure attention will turn to raider again.

Raider is a bigger problem than Hito. Outside of a 100ms HA delayed she is fine.
Raider needs an overall dmg nerf and should not stack blind.


Nerfing raider? Because of what?

He only can switch from heavies into GB or lights. Turn your defence above and you block 50% of his attacks..... Pffffff

I think there are bigger "Problems": light, hit, light, hit spamming Jormuns. A Centurio who gets out of control after the new patch............etc

So bias its even funny. Like the Guy really act like "What ? There is a problem with Raider? Never heard about it everything looks fine".

Knight_Raime
09-05-2019, 03:18 PM
I'd imagine it's because Raider isn't as big of a problem at all levels of play versus someone like hitokiri.
And we know they're actually going to do something to her at some point.

Knight_Raime
09-05-2019, 03:55 PM
Hitokiri relies on HA spam to be a noob stomper but spam at High levels is a death sentence. Raider on the other hand dominates but low level and high level gameplay

Lolno raider does not dominate high level play. He's good. but he's not insane.
Hito is much more of a problem because of her easy trade armor on opening heavies and her consistent 30 damage per landed mix up deletes people quickly.
Not to mention she's the only hero in the game that can negate warden's spacing advantage on close maps. Making the match up in her favor.


raider struggles to get going offense wise and his mix ups are easy enough to handle outside his neutral zone into soft feints. and even that is dealt with on one parry timing if he's external to you. even if he manages to get offense going he can't keep it because of how much stamina his soft feints cost him.

Siegfried-Z
09-05-2019, 04:00 PM
Lolno raider does not dominate high level play. He's good. but he's not insane.
Hito is much more of a problem because of her easy trade armor on opening heavies and her consistent 30 damage per landed mix up deletes people quickly.
Not to mention she's the only hero in the game that can negate warden's spacing advantage on close maps. Making the match up in her favor.


raider struggles to get going offense wise and his mix ups are easy enough to handle outside his neutral zone into soft feints. and even that is dealt with on one parry timing if he's external to you. even if he manages to get offense going he can't keep it because of how much stamina his soft feints cost him.

Still Raider is a popular pick in comp play.

While the HA is a certain advantage a decent player should be able to deal with it.

What do you mean by she is the only one able to negate Warden spacing ?

Knight_Raime
09-05-2019, 04:11 PM
Still Raider is a popular pick in comp play.

While the HA is a certain advantage a decent player should be able to deal with it.

What do you mean by she is the only one able to negate Warden spacing ?

Her charged heavies reach warden who normally sits outside your edge range.

So warden can't out space her in smaller areas.

You can't really deal with her mix up in any significantly easy way which makes her early HA that much more powerful.
The reason she's not picked up in comp as a hard pick is because heal on block is usually banned and there are better heros for single picking and the like.

Raider is picked up because he's an all rounder hero unlike her. That doesn't change though that raider isn't insane at high level in terms of stomping. He overly relies on stunning tap which comp players are more than capable of blocking and parrying.

Vakris_One
09-05-2019, 05:18 PM
Competetive players are also overcapable of dealing with a trade happy Hitokiri tho. Not to mention there is a reason why Raider has been accepted as S tier by everyone while hitokiri is debated to be S tier by the console players and Competitive players while considered A tier in PC. I wonder when will they delay her HA
There is no debate going on in the competitive scene right now. As someone who does competitive scrims I can tell you that competitive players have no real issues with Raider whereas Hitokiri's hyper armour from neutral is widely accepted as a problem area.

Knight_Raime
09-05-2019, 06:42 PM
Competetive players are also overcapable of dealing with a trade happy Hitokiri tho. Not to mention there is a reason why Raider has been accepted as S tier by everyone while hitokiri is debated to be S tier by the console players and Competitive players while considered A tier in PC. I wonder when will they delay her HA

Kay so firstly tier placement is not the end all be all like you're using it as. Raider being S tier doesn't mean raider is a god. It just means raider is good. So does A tier. What matters is why a hero is there. In raider's case as i've already mentioned it's because he's an all rounder. He's got good ganks, good team fights, and good mid clear/presence. This doesn't mean offensively he stomps people which is what you seem to be implying. Conq is also S tier. But he's not good at pretty much everything sans being hard to dislodge from B. he's very hard to solo against because of his many option selects. But he's bad pretty much everywhere else.

Hitokiri is entirely in her place because the way her HA works in junction with her mix up netting constantly 30 or higher damage means she stalls someone out. Because trying to go offensive against her is very difficult. It's true that if you have a hitokiri always commit to a heavy on red indicator that you can easily bait and parry. This is by far and away not how you play her optimally. And if i'm being blunt here there is a reason why competitive players basically say raider is mostly fine where she is at versus Hitokiri being universally stated as needing to be changed by the competitive community.

Finally we don't even have an accurate tier list anymore. The tier list on the comp reddit is at least 2 if not 3 seasons out of date. And it's not even a tier list made by competitive players opinions. It encompasses some competitive players opinions and some non competitive players opinion's done through a voting system that was done specifically for that tier list (as far as i'm aware.) The last true competitive made tier list we had was made by setymx and that one was where people lost their gourd because LB was considered very strong. We might get individual tier lists by competitive players themselves every now and then. But we're never getting an officially sanctioned tier list from the competitive players ever again.

So you're far better off not using tier lists in discussions and actually learning match ups and the nitty gritty details for how to do 4's in order to be able to hold discussions.

DeamonXII
09-05-2019, 07:21 PM
@AmonDarkGod - Thats your opinion! My opinion is: Donīt nerf Raider - Nerf Jormun and Centurio!!

@Tocksyk: If you are unable to parry the slow Raider Zone, than you should play a little more FH...... And I donīt believe that 1 heavy reduce half of the health.
You should learn to parry zone and keep your defence above........
80% of his attacks are to the head or zone. Itīs simple except he makes his GBīs between his actions......

No offense but you sounds like a person who jump on raider because of how easy to use him, and i say raider's playerbase before he is getting a buff is better to face than today playerbase since today raider playerbase is mostly toxic and spammy while old raider playerbase use their time to master him and know his kit so they can mixup their opponent and fyi he is way too strong because of the damage and shugoki even have a way slower and more predictable heavy to deal the same damage as him.

SixAxe505
09-05-2019, 07:28 PM
Hitokiri relies on HA spam to be a noob stomper but spam at High levels is a death sentence. Raider on the other hand dominates but low level and high level gameplay

Factually incorrect. Hitokiri can throw a 50/50 mix up with ease at low and high levels of play. In addition to feinting with HA to guarantee attacks on trade. A well played hito is comparable to raider. Player skill is a factor.

DeamonXII
09-05-2019, 07:31 PM
Kay so firstly tier placement is not the end all be all like you're using it as. Raider being S tier doesn't mean raider is a god. It just means raider is good. So does A tier. What matters is why a hero is there. In raider's case as i've already mentioned it's because he's an all rounder. He's got good ganks, good team fights, and good mid clear/presence. This doesn't mean offensively he stomps people which is what you seem to be implying. Conq is also S tier. But he's not good at pretty much everything sans being hard to dislodge from B. he's very hard to solo against because of his many option selects. But he's bad pretty much everywhere else.

Hitokiri is entirely in her place because the way her HA works in junction with her mix up netting constantly 30 or higher damage means she stalls someone out. Because trying to go offensive against her is very difficult. It's true that if you have a hitokiri always commit to a heavy on red indicator that you can easily bait and parry. This is by far and away not how you play her optimally. And if i'm being blunt here there is a reason why competitive players basically say raider is mostly fine where she is at versus Hitokiri being universally stated as needing to be changed by the competitive community.

Finally we don't even have an accurate tier list anymore. The tier list on the comp reddit is at least 2 if not 3 seasons out of date. And it's not even a tier list made by competitive players opinions. It encompasses some competitive players opinions and some non competitive players opinion's done through a voting system that was done specifically for that tier list (as far as i'm aware.) The last true competitive made tier list we had was made by setymx and that one was where people lost their gourd because LB was considered very strong. We might get individual tier lists by competitive players themselves every now and then. But we're never getting an officially sanctioned tier list from the competitive players ever again.

So you're far better off not using tier lists in discussions and actually learning match ups and the nitty gritty details for how to do 4's in order to be able to hold discussions.

His heavy is still too much for being faster and has hyper armor while shugoki's heavy is slower and to deal the same damage, he needs charged heavy and it is not useable unless your opponent did a wrong read/guess and shugoki's mixup is worse than raider's(i still agree on nerfing hito first before raider since hitokiri is more obnoxious to face than raider and today raiders are too easy to read, wish i can face against raider's playerbase before he got buffed)

Justifi3d
09-06-2019, 03:56 AM
Honestly, all I really want is his stunning tap to be reactable and a damage nerf. I'm tired of playing an assassin that gets killed in 2 hits by a raider if I don't play everything perfectly.

Haplo_Bane
09-06-2019, 03:43 PM
The raider....oohhh the raider. Nothing constructive to say other than the poor bloke was neglected for so long he kinda deserves his moment in sun. Yea...he's op, but Raider : GO HARD BUDDY while you still can.

Goat_of_Vermund
09-06-2019, 04:26 PM
Raider deserves his moment on the Sun. Chained out, with a glass of water just out of reach.

Btw Amon, we already told you hito kick mixup is not reactable. The kick itself is, but by that logic, raider is reactable too.

Haplo_Bane
09-06-2019, 05:24 PM
How the hell do you almost know my name. I paid someone to hide me on the internet ???

Haplo_Bane
09-06-2019, 05:29 PM
I don't remember saying hito mix-reactable. I don't have much problem with him though. I mainly play dodge attack guys though. It's the same reason the cent doesn't bother me. It's the bezerker who is my bane.

Vakris_One
09-07-2019, 02:29 AM
No you are right I should have said the kick alone is reactable. Also the kick has 500ms animation so technically speaking it is reactable but Raider's tap is faster than 500ns so thats why its not reactable on its own?
The animation for stun tap itself is 500ms. The indicator is 400ms buffered and 333ms when delayed.

Goat_of_Vermund
09-07-2019, 11:17 AM
If you see a side heavy, zone or dodge and "react" in time by switching to top, you can always beat the stunning tap itself. The move itself is reactable, the mixup it is part of is not.

AlphawolfyUP
09-07-2019, 12:13 PM
If you see a side heavy, zone or dodge and "react" in time by switching to top, you can always beat the stunning tap itself. The move itself is reactable, the mixup it is part of is not.

This exactly, adding a second possible sf to an unblockable move makes it a 3 way threat in a way PK's double soft feint isnt. You have to guess and if you guess right you get at best a light parry, but more likely a heavy parry or just a counter-break, the risk/reward is about a thousand miles away from fair and balanced. Going for the ST parry on reaction to a change is now risky because its 50/50 on what that change was. You dont have time to analyse what type of change it was, nobody does if they are being honest with themselves, so it becomes a guess aka luck, not skill.

Some friends of mine and I experimented recently, playing raider with no practise or time spent on the class at fairly high level play, and it was a slaughter, no class should be so strong that people with no time spent on it can steamroll matches reliably at the higher end of the skill groups, its genuinely insane how strong raider is right now, and it's increasingly more and more concerning as time goes on with no action from Ubisoft to correct this. I still think Hito is the bigger issue, but thats more about the HA meta than just Hito themselves.

Vakris_One
09-07-2019, 03:08 PM
If you see a side heavy, zone or dodge and "react" in time by switching to top, you can always beat the stunning tap itself. The move itself is reactable, the mixup it is part of is not.
The only part of Raider's mixup on PC that can genuinley force you to make a read on a parry instead of a reaction is his zone from neutral. His side heavy mixup does not force a parry reaction from you thus you can safely prepare to reaction block an incoming stun tap. His chained zone can be stuffed with a light on reaction to seeing it.

The only time a Raider can actually force a read from a high level opponent is via his neutral zone mixup.

Siegfried-Z
09-07-2019, 06:38 PM
Regardless of how to handle him, he needs a serious dmg nerf.
The dmg buff they gave to him was a big mistake.
His combo zone should not be more than 40dmg considering the huge aoe the moove have.
As for the side heavy finisher should not be more than 30 considering it come while you are blind in most case.

From a 4v4 perspective Raider is the most annoying heroe you can have to fight unless you play BP and manage to Bullwark Raider's fury target swaped.

I also dont understand the "he deserve his momentum" vision some have.
Raider was already a Top pick in 4s before the rework.. he was a bad duelist but already a 4s beast. So his current state is in no way acceptable by no means and should be fix asap.

1/ Fix Raider dmg
2/ Fix Hito HA to 400ms

Then buff PK, give HL and Shinobi a real balancing pass with both buff and nerf (they need so many tweaks).

Then be sure testing ground heroes goes live better than they are in the phase 1 (all of them).

And maybe after that the game gonna have a "kind" of balanced state.