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View Full Version : What do you think is problematic with Shinobi?



KingOfThe735
09-02-2019, 05:30 PM
So I'm a rep 67 shinobi main and just wanted to ask the community what they thought was problematic with shinobi. For me, it's how his lack of offense forces him to play cheap and to turtle because he has nothing more. His overly good defense is also a problem, best mobility, unpunishable moves, really good option select parries, running away potential, ways to punish whiffs, ganks coming from out the screen and finally really high damage on parry and deflect punishes.

What are your thoughts?

Goat_of_Vermund
09-02-2019, 08:03 PM
- No offense (literally no offense, some zones and lights here and there, and that's it).
- Overtuned damage (almost old pk level)
- Overtuned punishes (lawbringer level)
- Dead moves like kick into ranged gb.

He is actually very closely resemble pre-rework lawbringer (obviously a bit better than he was). He is not an assassin, he sucks being an assassin. He is a tank. I doubt that was the intention.

Knight_Raime
09-02-2019, 08:26 PM
His core design. People think it's cheesy for him to constantly space you and engage you externally at range and running to back cap a lot but that's how he's meant to be played.

He's not your anime ninja that uses cqc and stuff. He's meant to hit you and then go back to range.

I don't like this design. And even if they made it healthier and actually possible to bounce back in and out of range in a more engaging way I still wouldn't. I just don't think a ranged hero belongs in the game.

We.the.North
09-02-2019, 08:44 PM
- Dead moves like kick into ranged gb.

This is not a dead move. It's the only way to grab someone you are running after. Doudble dodge kick in the air forward, followed by the ranged GB.

ArchDukeInstinct
09-02-2019, 08:53 PM
It's a gimmick class.

This is a medieval melee combat game, we don't need any classes with ranged attacks outside of feats.

KingOfThe735
09-02-2019, 10:13 PM
So I think we should all agree on him not having offense, having dead moves, being a turtle and never wanting to fight close to his opponents. Personnally I think shinobi might be the next character the devs should look into for a big change update, after the season 12 cent, glad, and warlord changes.

And what's sad is that a lot of people probably picked up the character because of how unique he was back in season 2, tbh I did. I think his kick should be made viable and the focus on his long range should be loosened. His defense and damage should also go and he should have more inventives to throw attacks and chains. More options and good mix-ups

Valoredramack
09-02-2019, 10:40 PM
unpunishable moves, ganks coming from out the screen

I am also a Shinobi main, what moves exactly are you even referring to as "unpunishiable"?

Double Dodge is open to guard-breaking for punishment and always has been.
Ranged GB drags the Shinobi to the ground for punishment and always has been.
Regular Heavy is slow and telegraphed to be easily parried and punished and always has been.
Slide Tackle has a short distance and is slow enough to be dodged for punishment.
Kick is easily interrupted with an attack for punishment after Patch 2.11 nerf hammer.
Kick Mix-Up is slow, which causes the final Flip Kick to be utterly dodgeable for punishment.
Backflip does not allow the Shinobi to stay at a safe distance after Patch 2.11.
NO Dodge Attacks which means that the Shinobi does NOT have the best mobility, not after the back-flip nerf.

If the Shinobi had good mobility, then he would have his own dodge attacks, similar to Orochi, Kensei, or any other hero with side-dodging flanking attacks. And now the backflip is practically nothing; try to backflip on an incline especially and it puts you in the opponent's immediate guard break range.

I'm not buying your statement which claims the Shinobi has good defense either, the hero can die in 2 to 4 hits to begin with. The Shinobi's best defense in 4v4 is avoiding 1v1 confrontations and relying more on ganking, which is a viable strategy in maps like Dominion but obviously does not apply to duel modes. This is a strategy that Shinobi players are now using with more frequency than ever before because of the lack offensive options as you pointed out, but also because the move sets that we have available for close quarters are overly punishable and can get us killed very easily.

Most of what you said sounds more about your experience in team gameplay and doesn't even take into account that the Shinobi is currently garbage in actual 1v1 scenarios. To say that the Shinobi moves after Patch 2.11 are "unpunishable" is not even remotely accurate . The Shinobi Kick can either be easily interrupted or it can be dodged, so there is nothing unpunishable about that movie or any of his other movies. Even trying to do Sickle Rain in 4v4, you're likely to get the combo interrupted by either an enemy OR an ally.

Furthermore, and I have said this in other threads, but when you talk about damage then you also need to acknowledge that opponents can kill the Shinobi in far fewer hits by comparison. A Shinobi cannot afford to trade blows with anyone due to the lower health and survivability, so it makes logical sense for the Shinobi to have decent deflect and parry damage to compensate for the lack of health, lack of static guard, and lack of survivability feats like Second Wind.

It makes absolutely no sense to imply that a low health hero with no true dodge attacks, no static guard, no shield buff feats, and no health potion feats (Second Wind), should also have lower damage capability when the Shinobi is already capable of dying like a fly from 2.5 swings of an opponent's heavy attacks.

Valoredramack
09-02-2019, 11:09 PM
So I think we should all agree on him not having offense, having dead moves, being a turtle and never wanting to fight close to his opponents. Personnally I think shinobi might be the next character the devs should look into for a big change update, after the season 12 cent, glad, and warlord changes.

And what's sad is that a lot of people probably picked up the character because of how unique he was back in season 2, tbh I did. I think his kick should be made viable and the focus on his long range should be loosened. His defense and damage should also go and he should have more inventives to throw attacks and chains. More options and good mix-ups

I agree with this quote except for your idea that the Shinobi's defense and damage should be stripped away. The Shinobi does not have good defense. How exactly are you going to lower the defense on a hero that already has no dodge attack, no static guard, incredibly low health, and a severely nerfed backflip?

I don't mind lowering deflect damage if it will get players to stop whining so much, most Shinobi players aren't even using deflects in Dominion because they're too busy ganking with teammates and avoiding 1v1 confrontations. Deflects are overrated...they require a lot skill, perfecting timing, and it's more risky than simply going for a parry. Even hardcore competitors have a difficult time pulling off a deflect intentionally; it's easier to activate on PC but I primarily play on console as does the majority of the For Honor population.

KingOfThe735
09-02-2019, 11:47 PM
I didn't mean that all his moves were strong or unpunishable, not at all. With this we're on a common ground.

What I meant, sorry english is not my native language, was that shinobi was and still is hard to punish in certain ways, for exemple, his kick can punish any sort of dodge attack with a deflect and has no gb recovery... It's really not this big of a deal, but could be if it was to be made viable again. You should watch freeze's video on the subject (even if it's a little outdated).

I know today all kicks that aren't counter attacks get punished, but I think on the long term.

Also, don't be f**in stupid, and stick to your opponent when you do your dodges. There is a way to space yourself correctly to be able to pull off double and quad dashes without getting guardbroken. Only situation where you would is in the kind of scenario where your opponent sticks to you, there you dodge when he tries to light attack or gb you.

I also proposed he should get a rework and in this rework I suggested that he should get his distance back off backflip and a new dodge attack. To increase mobility.

For him not having good defense, check up his ranged heavy option select parries, those are one really defensive move. There is also the quick dodge tech that negates some mix-ups (exemple warden's sb, highlander kick to caber toss) for a 40 or 53 damage punish. Also, he got highest heavy parry punish and highest deflect punish and this makes him a pretty good of a turtle don't you think.

Okay, I'm saddened to say but the nerf bomb shinobi received didn't affect all his defense. He is not s tier anymore, but he still has good enough tools if you play him optimally in 1's, which nobody actually does, but the comp shinobi players because it's too boring. So technically he is not this bad. Here are the tools he lost in 1v1s : range on backflip, super armor, walk speed. It's just half his defense. He still is a good turtle. You don't want to get hit while your using shinobi you don't have to trade, nobody said you had to. Also his parry and deflect punishes damage might be high, but mostly because he has no offense, not because he has the lowest hp in the game (with a difference of 10, do you think that pk, zerker etc, should get a 50 damage deflect also).


I want to also further imply that shinobi shouldn't get nuked again. This post is not meant to destroy shinobi even more, it has the duty to put the community's finger on what enables the character to have offense and to find where the character lacks or where he is too strong. You should go check out the rework post I made for the shinobi. He gets better offense and survivibility. We all think that he was nerfed without compensation. This is why this discussion has started.

ArchDukeInstinct
09-02-2019, 11:59 PM
I'm not buying your statement which claims the Shinobi has good defense either, the hero can die in 2 to 4 hits to begin with. The Shinobi's best defense in 4v4 is avoiding 1v1 confrontations and relying more on ganking, which is a viable strategy in maps like Dominion but obviously does not apply to duel modes. This is a strategy that Shinobi players are now using with more frequency than ever before because of the lack offensive options as you pointed out, but also because the move sets that we have available for close quarters are overly punishable and can get us killed very easily.

Most of what you said sounds more about your experience in team gameplay and doesn't even take into account that the Shinobi is currently garbage in actual 1v1 scenarios. To say that the Shinobi moves after Patch 2.11 are "unpunishable" is not even remotely accurate . The Shinobi Kick can either be easily interrupted or it can be dodged, so there is nothing unpunishable about that movie or any of his other movies. Even trying to do Sickle Rain in 4v4, you're likely to get the combo interrupted by either an enemy OR an ally.

Furthermore, and I have said this in other threads, but when you talk about damage then you also need to acknowledge that opponents can kill the Shinobi in far fewer hits by comparison. A Shinobi cannot afford to trade blows with anyone due to the lower health and survivability, so it makes logical sense for the Shinobi to have decent deflect and parry damage to compensate for the lack of health, lack of static guard, and lack of survivability feats like Second Wind.

It makes absolutely no sense to imply that a low health hero with no true dodge attacks, no static guard, no shield buff feats, and no health potion feats (Second Wind), should also have lower damage capability when the Shinobi is already capable of dying like a fly from 2.5 swings of an opponent's heavy attacks.

Shinobis love to harangue about having the "lowest health in the game". While it is indeed a factual claim, they greatly exaggerate it and pretend like 110 health isn't only 10 points less than most characters in the game. That is not really that significant, it's a BARGAIN for Shinobi to lose that little bit of base health in exchange for all the extra damage he does per attack. Heck, he's doing nearly 10 damage extra on just his light attacks compared to most classes with only 120 health.

KingOfThe735
09-03-2019, 12:04 AM
:)

Valoredramack
09-03-2019, 12:13 AM
Also, don't be f**in stupid, and stick to your opponent when you do your dodges. There is a way to space yourself correctly to be able to pull off double and quad dashes without getting guardbroken.

You missed the point, which is that the dash is not unpunishable because it can be guard broken. I'm not talking about strategies to play the Shinobi optimally , I am talking about the move sets themselves and their innate vulnerabilities which are built-in. A move isn't unpunishable by definition just because a player learns how to make fewer mistakes.

Furthermore, literally every single hero in the game can be played like a turtle, that's just a matter of blocking, parrying, and deflecting which are not unique traits to the Shinobi. The Backflip was unique and that has already been nerfed into the ground. Shinobi isn't even a true turtle because there is no static guard, no superior block, and no bulwark-style moves like Black Prior, Conqueror, or other shield-based heroes have access to. Also no health potion feats like Second Wind.

The only reason people even talk about the Shinobi critically when it comes "turtling", is because the other Assassin heroes tend to play more aggressively. But the fact of the matter is that other Assassins play more aggressively because their move sets don't limit their offensive capability to the same degree that the Shinobi is limited. In other words, the Shinobi isn't inherently better at turtling than other heroes, it's simply that the Shinobi player tends to use turtle tactics more frequently just to survive because they don't have the tools to fight more aggressively.

Turtlling for the Shinobi is simply the equivalent of electricity taking the path of least resistance. To fix this you don't need to make defense less viable, you just need to make offense more viable.

I have read several Shinobi rework posts by now, including yours, and I have also responded to Freeze's video multiple times in multiple threads already; so I don't feel the need to restate the points that I have already made in other threads about how punishable the Shinobi is. The only post that seems to be the most accurate to me thusfar about the current state of the Shinobi is a thread that was recently posted by We.the.North.

I do not disagree with all of your points; but I strongly disagree with your assertion that the Shinobi has good defense and unpunishable moves.

KingOfThe735
09-03-2019, 11:37 AM
All dashes have gb vulnerability dude, play tiandi if you don't to get guardbroken.

Shinobi is not a turtle by definition, but more a hero that is really effective when you try to play defensively with him. Pretty much like old pk. He has no defensive mix-ups, but has ways to play like a turtle effectively. I don't want to say he still is s tier, bit he was, even with a broken moveset.