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Merphee
08-04-2019, 07:13 PM
Disclaimer: it is possible that you may not agree with anything that this OP will contain. In fact, you may even hate this entire thread. After all, this is just the opinion of one player, and even so, some things here are not my own ideas, but ideas of the community. However, much like my past threads, this thread is an attempt at compiling a bunch of suggestions into one singular thread, overviewing issues and possible solutions. I am not the only one who could be making these huge threads, but it is clear that since lengthy threads like this rarely appear, making them may not be worth it. But hey, one more shot shouldn't hurt, right?

Also, understand that these types of threads take days to write up, while I also have personal things to do, so by the time I click "Submit New Thread", it would have been days after I started typing. I started typing this thread a couple hours after the SOTG on Wednesday, US east coast time.

Mods, I have posted this in general discussion to get the most amount of possible eyes and the most amount of possible replies to generate a discussion, that way you and the developers can gauge whether or not these are changes / additions that multiple people would like to have in the game. I will eventually post this on Reddit for the same purpose, as well as in the Suggestion and Feedback forum.




To begin, take a listen to a segment by Chris on the recent state of the game.


https://youtu.be/ytQiQkanSOg?t=1379




"What happens next?"

Good question, Hamish. Well... Agents, what happens next?

Division 2 is no longer in its honeymoon phase. Frankly, it's beyond that. When this question was asked and Chris followed up with the answer, I immediately thought to myself "oh no, here I go again, thinking about suggestions." "Here I go again, thinking about taking time to write long threads."

Once again have I thought to myself " well, maybe if I write in detail and make the posts long, it would be worthy of being forwarded the developers."

So here is my final attempt at providing long detailed feedback for the developers to consider. After all, now is the time, right?

To quote the reddit post (https://www.reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/cjznkk/state_of_the_game_july_31st_2019/) and to give context to this thread, see this:


Next Title Update Focuses on Player Feedback
The next step is to start addressing things our players engage with us about regularly in an update before the next Episode. The dev team wants the community's input on what they feel needs to be improved, including these topics:

Endgame RPG

Gear Acquisition

Inventory management

How all these changes synergize in PvE and PvP

These are just some high-level examples and should not limit your feedback.

So, without further introduction, here is my contribution, my attempt at answering Hamish's question and fulfilling the survey of wanted feedback. Remember, I am just one player and if you are a player that is also reading this, you have the same ability to do what I have just done.




Improving the RPG - Gear

You know, Division isn't a game that has things like bartering, or dialogue choices that affect future scenarios, or an affinity system. Its RPG elements come down to gear, for the most part.

I've posted this point across multiple threads, but I'll explain it a bit more here. Division 2 is currently in a spot where you can make a build, but there is no content in which would make that build feel useful. No content that makes you feel proud to have spent hours crafting a hyper-specific build in order to progress through content. Now, a build shouldn't be a requirement, because that would mean that you wouldn't be able to complete the activity at all without it. A build should be something that makes completing the activity easier. Still achievable without it, but much harder. Take a look at this picture:


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/A79QTaNyzn4/maxresdefault.jpg

For those like me who have played the first Division, you'd know that this is the Dragon's Nest Incursion, more specifically, the final room. And, due to priming, I'm sure the first thing that popped into your head was Reclaimer, or even just the immune station. :)

To those haven't played the first game, this part of the Incursion featured a room where the floor would literally turn into lava. In order to complete the part, a sequence of buttons had to be pressed simultaneously in order to progress an explosive tank hoisted above the head your agent forward towards the entity that was causing the floor to turn into fire, so that it would be blown up.

To educate those who've not played Division 1, the Reclaimer gear set essentially made handling the fire easier because the gear set combined all variations a skill called Support Station. It provided status immunity, revived and healed you and your group members, gave you free ammo if you reloaded within the radius, and decreased skill cooldowns of everyone in the radius. Imagine a gear set that combined the Hive's healing, reviving and booster variations into one variation.

The fire, a constant mechanic that had to be juggled along with fighting NPCs, persuaded the use of this gear set. This constant mechanic persuaded a role: a healer. It was possible to do this mission without Reclaimer, by avoiding the telegraphs, but you were better off with it than without it.

Take a look at this picture:


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/uhkupE6HH68/maxresdefault.jpg

Again, veteran Division 1 players should know what needs to be done here. But, for those who haven't played the game, your objective here is to protect hostages, indicated by the orange shields, from a minigun on the opposite end of the room. If this minigun were to kill any of the hostages, it acts as a wipe mechanic, prompting a restart of the encounter.

For the sake of simplicity, I will give you four skills to choose from: Pulse, Seeker Mine, Shield, Turret.

Which do you think is the best skill that would allow you to protect the hostages?

If you thought a shield, then you are correct, and there was a gear set in Division 1 that buffed your shield significantly, literally making it practically indestructible, while also allowing you to use an SMG with it. It is known as D3, or D3FNC. It absorbed damage and after absorbing a specific amount of a specific type of damage (physical or exotic damage), it provided everyone in your party a buff.

The mechanics of content makes a build feel meaningful outside of general play. Division 2 does not feature content that makes hyper specific builds feel useful. Not even the high point of end game - the raid, something I, and probably many of you expected. I haven't tried it yet, but I could take my current flame turret build into the raid, thanks to the buff to skills, and have it camp only one of the NPC spawn doors of the Boomer fight.... or I could be yelled at and kicked out of the raid group for having only ~50% damage to elites, one offensive stat that's not even weapon damage (not my fault, RNG's fault), and moderate survivability.

I'm sure there is PVE content down the pipeline, but, for example, if there is no content that features multiple rooms laced with traps and poison or oxidizer clouds spawning in intervals, with a generator that has to be started and defended in order for the group to open a door to another room, what would be the point of a 100% Hazard protection build? What would be the point of a Healer build?

But, maybe the lack of builds is the point? If builds make content easier, why should mechanics be introduce that persuades them, if the developers want to create a sense of difficulty? For example, the raid only allowing 2 (or was it 3?) armor kits, down from 6 throughout the rest of the game. Seems controversial, and probably not at all the goal, but it's a thought to consider. Would hyper builds need to be apart of every new piece of PVE? No, not really, I would only say just apart of pinnacle end game content, because if I had to put together a specific build in order to complete a main mission on Hard, I'd likely be annoyed.

And, I think that taking out incursions really hurt the need for builds. They were still pinnacle end game content with mechanics that had to be juggled and were always scaled for four players, no matter if you walked in solo. Division 2 doesn't have that "always scaled for four players" content with hazardous mechanics that persuades the use of a specific build, because it's clear that the raid doesn't do that with 8. (Well, it kind of does, but not in a good way)

Gear and the mechanics of content combined influences a role. Without those mechanics, a build feels useless. If you create encounters with objectives that call to eliminate targets near or at the same time, you will only persuade DPS builds. But a DPS build cannot shoot fire out. Moving away from timed killings and instead introduce mechanics that can't be juggled or handled with DPS will open up build diversity and the RPG in the end game.




Improving the RPG - Difficulty

Difficulty is also an element that challenges the RPG. In a lot of games, an increase in difficulty means upping the health and damage of NPCs. This is a cheap cop out, in my opinion. However, some games actually change the features or skills of the NPCs. Division 2 already has this approach to difficulty in place, it just needs to be distributed and expressed more.

Named bounty targets tend to have something different about them compared to normal NPCs. Before the game released, Drew (the AI guy) spoke about the many different "combinations" of assets that they could have. They may come with fire starter chem launchers, poisonous grenades, dish out mines, etc. A heavy enemy might suddenly weild a flame thrower. Some elite enemies, such as elite mechanics, may set up turrets that have shock rounds or explosive rounds that make you bleed, and I'm sure you are all aware of what Elite Black Tusk hounds are capable of. If more pinnacle end game activities featured these types of enemies, and these enemies are constant instead of randomized, you would then persuade the player to create builds that counter these elements simply out of pure anticipation. Much like the fire in Dragon's Nest.

For example, I am sure you all are aware of this mechanic:


https://i.imgur.com/GpmvIec.jpg

A state in which an enemy suddenly becomes immune to damage, no matter the source. Once an enemy is in this state, our only option is to avoid the enemy until the buff is gone. But, why not make this an opportunity of teamwork, that calls for the flip flop of roles?

When an enemy is in this state, they become immune to all damage. Instead, allow skills to still damage an enemy when they are in this state. With this, you've created this opportunity of a skill build to play a bigger part in the fight. Here's why.

Weapon damage builds are obviously more convenient than a skill build, so naturally, a weapon build will have an easier time doing damage to an enemy. Before an enemy is in this state, a weapon build will be dishing out more DPS against them than what a skill build can do. But, when an enemy is in this state, gun builds would then take a back seat, while the skill build has their moment to do damage.

Then, when this state is over, the weapon build will be back doing its damage. This mechanic can be used in more missions and be used to improve the RPG a bit if changes to its approach are made. Obviously nothing will change if you are playing solo and run into an enemy that can go into this state of invulnerability, but this is a much better solution to improving the RPG than by simply increasing health and damage.





Improving the RPG - Main Attribute Trees

Division has a system based on three main attributes: offensive, defensive, and utility. RPGs tend to feature skill trees that give players choices on how they want to build their character based on their class, and Division is kind of doing that with specializations, but it falls short because the passive talents aren't presented in a way that makes you choose between one or another. That choice is there when you choose which weapon types you'd want additional damage for with your specialization, but that's pretty much it.

To add more depth to the RPG, Division 2 could introduce "skill" trees for each of the main attributes. These attribute trees would further support a player's preferred play style by providing choices when reaching a specific attribute amount requirement. Do you want to have a passive offensive "Encouragement" talent that buffs your team's headshot damage when you get x amount of consecutive headshot kills or grants additional stability and accuracy to the entire team if you stay in cover after 4 seconds? Do you want to take aggro when your shield is active or do more melee damage with it? Do, you want your Blinder Firefly to debuff enemy resistances when blinded or increase the damage they take from melee when blinded?

Now, of course you wouldn't want the strongest aspects of these new attribute trees to be easily obtained to a point where a player can have three maxed out attribute trees active. This would come down to how many of a specific attribute a player has. If you have, say, 9 utility attributes, you have the option to choose between three additional talents, like a talent that provides your team crit chance when you use pulse :rolleyes: , or a talent that provides additional hazard protection for the entire group for example.

Or a talent that increases the range of a stationary skill. Or if you have, say, 7 defensive talents, you have the option to choose between a talent that heals you if you fall under a status and are at 100% hazard protection, or a talent that makes you immune to stagger or allows you to full sprint and reload. These are all just examples I came up with on the spot, but if you really want to beef up the RPG, you'll need a lot of these choices.

Again, these are just examples, but I'm sure you get the point.

Now, these talents could very well be gear set bonuses, but that comes down to the conversation about gear sets drowning out brand sets (high ends), something that happened in Division 1. Who would want that depends on who you ask, but these attribute trees would deepen the RPG significantly, without it being set behind RNG as normal gear talents, or having to wait for a gear set to be made. These attribute trees are the next best thing since Division doesn't want to be a game with locked "classes."




Improving the RPG - Emphasizing Specializations

A thread made by xcel30 (https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/2105960-When-should-you-use-the-crossbow) asked when should we use the crossbow. It got me thinking, how often are specialization weapons used, in general, these days?

Specializations come with fun additional weapons, but our normal weapons are just as good, if not better. Right now, I am using the Survivalist, but mainly for its incendiary grenade because I am maining a BTSU build. If I were to go Sharpshooter, I would be using it for the weapon handling buffs. I'd be using Nemesis more than I would be using the Tac-50. These may be extreme, but:

There isn't content with objective targets placed outside of the range of normal weapons, that also have to be hit with a ton of damage.
There isn't content with objective targets grouped together that all have to be killed at once, and are placed on the other side of a wall with a small hole that only an arrow can pass through.
There isn't content that calls for a player to sustain bullets while also dishing out a ton of their own.

Grenade launcher is an exception, because its best used for clearing grouped up, unprotected mobs and pelting bosses. These types of encounters happen throughout the entire game. So, I believe that it is the most used specialization weapon.

The idea of emphasizing specializations and their weapons is to find ways that call for their use. Whether those ways have to be created, I don't think simply increasing numbers will be the end all be all solution.




RNG - It's Insane!

RNG is RNG, let's be honest, but an issue in Division 2 isn't really RNG per say. It's the sheer amount of elements attributed to RNG.

Let's say that I want a Gila Chest piece that has + Total Armor, + Weapon Damage, + Skill Power, Unstoppable Force, and let's say that I need this chest to have a utility slot. This means that I will need the Iguana variant of the Gila chest. Let's say I go kill a non-Black Tusk named enemy who only drops one high end item upon death. Here is the RNG behind obtaining this exact chest on this drop:

1 / 3 chance of that item being a gear piece (From either being gear, a weapon, or a gear mod)
1 / 6 chance of that item being a chest piece (Based on the six gear slots)

1 / 10 chance of that item being Gila (Based on how many brand sets have chest pieces)
1 / 2 chance of that Gila item being Iguana (straight forward since there are only two gila chest variants)

1 / 2 chance of that Gila chest dropping with an active talent slot
1 / 5 chance of that talent being Unstoppable Force (based on the types of talent that drops on Gila chests - offensive and defensive)

1 / 4 chance of the first attribute slot being total armor, since its first slot is always defensive (based the defensive stat possibilities being either health, total health, armor, total armor)
1 / 9 chance of the second attribute slot being weapon damage or skill power (since the second slot can roll any attribute)
1 / 9 chance of the third attribute slot being weapon damage or skill power (since the third slot can also roll any attribute)

So, me getting this exact chest on drop is a 0.02% chance. I want to believe that my math is correct, dividing the item with the rolls that I want by the number of variables. If it's wrong, please correct me.

There are 9 slots left up to RNG to fill in order for me to get this one chest piece. Think about that for a minute. You know the slot machine that rewards you if you get three 7s in a row? Imagine that same slot machine adding 6 more slots and then having to get nine 7s in a row before you win big. Course, this is an extreme example, and can't really be used for items such as Murakami knees, but this type of RNG makes it extremely difficult to get what you need for some types of gear. Recalibration doesn't help either.




RNG - Remove variants from the game & generalize mod slots


https://i.imgur.com/rAujCbN.png

Variations are a glaring issue.

Variants are inflation at this point. You've created a duplicate (or duplicates) item that have a minimal difference between it and the original item. One item may roll with an offensive common talent, but then a variation of this same item may roll with an active utility talent instead. Do you really think that's justifiable enough to have variations? These variations are just flooding the loot pool for no real practical reason, only worsening the RNG. Take a look at the above 5.11 backpacks. Before I explain, remember - gear mods have changed, so you don't have to worry about whether or not something is system or protocol.

Now, with that out of the way, in terms of available attributes and mod slots, tell me the difference between an All Hazards Prime backpack and a Rush 12 backpack. Note, the last column is what type of mod slot is available on that piece.


https://i.imgur.com/7fRc8GB.png
https://i.imgur.com/2W8USj1.png


Nothing, but these items are exact duplicates and these duplicates are only inflating the loot pool. Get rid of them and make one variation. Take a look at the Badger backpack:



https://i.imgur.com/OeQIwVN.png

Three variations with only the mod slot as the difference. In this case, these are unnecessary items that only exist to make RNG even harsh! I get tired of saying "Aww, it's the wrong mod slot." If you were to generalize the mod slots, to where a player can equip any attribute mod into the slot, you effectively nullify the need for variations, shrinking the loot pool and making the RNG somewhat better. You've just turned three items into one, while also giving the player choice!

Here is that Gila scenario I told you about:


https://i.imgur.com/c8gDW5S.png


As you can see, the only difference between the two is that Iguana rolls with a utility mod slot instead of an offensive mod slot. A duplicated item with only the mod slot as the difference. So again, imagine trying to get the perfect rolls on a Gila chest, except it comes with the wrong mod slot! Is this issue not clear enough? Take a look at Providence:


https://i.imgur.com/3AnK1ea.png


The mod slot is the only difference! Variants are only inflating the loot pool over something so insignificant that can be mediated by simply generalizing mod slots, just how it was in Division 1.

Maybe variations would make sense if those items dropped with fixed stats, where these variations always dropped with these exact attribute stats to maybe emphasize a role or a certain type of build, but that is not the case.




RNG - Remove Purple Gear from World Tiers

In Division 1, there was some philosophy about why purples in WT5 was a good thing. At this point I forgot what that philosophy was. Division 2 also has purple gear dropping in WT5, but....

There are only a couple good purple items, but those items are also good as a high ends. These items are Alps and Airaldi. This is because of "density." If you are unaware of what that is, density means that the less attribute slots that an item has, the higher the rolls of those attribute slots will be, or could be. Conversely, the more attribute slots an item has, the lower those stat rolls will be. So, if these are the only two good purple items because of density and not because purple gear is actually good, purple items are practically useless.

Purple gear effectively doubles the size of the loot pool, even if the drop chance is lower than high ends. Purple gear in WT5 also implies that high end gear rolls can be worse than the rolls of a gear rarity directly under it. Why would you want that to be a thing? For the sake of RNG and "grind?" Why not just remove purple gear and make high end gear roll better? There is no need to have purple gear drop in world tiers over some undisclosed philosophy. I'd understand if we could only equip one high end, and the rest purples, but that's now how it is.




RNG - Value Ranges

To the previous point, why not just shrink the value ranges of attributes on high end gear? I had to reinstall Division 1 to make the comparison.

The lowest health roll that you can get on a high end chest in Division 2 is 5,600. The highest is 67,500. That is a difference of 61,900! In Division 1, the lowest main stat roll you could get on a WT5 item was 1114, the highest was 1272. That's a difference of 158! The likelihood of you finding a max rolled item or even an upgrade was higher than the likelihood it is in Division 2, even before factoring in density.

And if we were to directly compare the health roll on chests. The lowest health roll that you can get on a chest in Division 1 is 14,184. The highest was 16,674. That's a difference of 2490. 2490 vs 61,900. This, in combination with density, is why we are not finding maxed roll, or God rolled items. The value ranges are extreme in comparison.

Shrinking the ranges between the lowest value and the highest value is one way that upgrades can be found more often than not. But, as long as these value ranges continue to be this large, RNG will continue to be ugly and harsh. Now, of course, this doesn't apply to all attributes, but even so, you could make the lowest weapon damage roll on gloves 5% - 7% and keep the highest at 12%.

This is something pulled directly from Division 1. Yes, I am aware of the whole "it's a different game" angle, and the "RPG is different in Division 2" angle, but you must understand why Division 1 is still credible. It has done some things better than what Division 2 offers.

I've seen all of the "increase stash space" and "increase inventory" comments. I think this density system, in combination with the sheer amount of slots on gear attributed to RNG and sheer amount of gear variants is why we are over encumbered. We're holding onto gear with high rolls so that we may transfer them over to the "God rolled" item that we need, but yet never seem to find. Transferring stats over is a commitment because once you transfer or recalibrate a stat, the other attribute slots cannot be changed, and so:

1: You're waiting on that one God rolled item to drop that's
2: Covered in layers of RNG because of how many slots need to be "right" before
3: You transfer that stat over.

The longer you wait for that God rolled item to drop, and it doesn't, the more space gets taken up by other items with bad rolls but with one good roll about them.




RNG - The Perception of Gear Score

People. Gear Score currently means nothing in the game, except for Exotics. It is not an indication of quality like how it was in Division 1. The closer your gear score was to 292 meant that the rolls on your gear were near or at maximum value.

500 gear can roll worse attribute values than an item with a lower gear score. Another reason why 500 gear score means nothing is because of how density works.

Bringing back 515 gear score, or at least the "higher gear score = quality" philosophy, in some way can be the indication of quality. Any gear above 500 would only indicate that the rolls on that piece of gear are at or near their maximum value, if the rolls are in some sort of bracket range. If or until they add a WT6, anything above 500 should not mean that the base value of that gear is at or higher than the highest value on 500 gear, like comparing WT4 gear to WT5 gear.

But, the only way this can work is if density and the recalibration station is changed.




End Game Progression - Vendors

https://i.imgur.com/QorVD4Z.jpg

In other RPGs, I drool at discovering new vendors in new places across the various locations of those game. It's because, and the games tend to set you up for it, you should always expect the vendor to sell you something much better than what your character or party members are wearing.

This is absent in Division 2, for the most part. When a vendor does sell an item with a good roll, it doesn't bring happiness, it brings frustration because:

The vendor ends up being the clan vendor, and is only exclusive to a specific rank.

In Division 1, we had our DZ ranks tied to vendors. In the early days, DZ vendors sold blueprints tied to DZ rank. Of course, that pissed a lot of people off, and then it was changed accordingly. Me, personally, I found that chase exciting.

Division 2 vendors are currently useless, outside of the clan vendor. Even more so because they sell purple gear. On top of that, there are less vendors in Division 2 than there are in Division 1, and this isn't even a quality over quantity situation. If the clan vendor sells good items based on rank, why can't the normal vendors do the same?

I have all these trinkets going nowhere. Why can't these trinkets, or even crafting materials, be used to level up vendors, so that we can buy good quality items from them at high ranks? This trinket exchange for XP creates a sense of progression towards top quality items, because we'd still have to play the game in order to find those materials. This progression doesn't have to be limited to trinkets and crafting materials either.

If you give these vendors character to distinguish them from one another, you can have them sell arm patches or even a piece of clothing that, when worn, grants XP towards leveling up that vendor! Even the DZ vendors. These vendors could also have daily and weekly objectives that reward vendor XP! Revamping the vendors in a way like this creates a clear path towards upgraded loot without it all being behind RNG. And because Division 2 accommodates solo play pretty well, these vendors can be leveled up at any pace. It's just a matter of restock timers.

Division 2 could benefit from having more vendors as well - one for weapons only, one for gear mods only, for example. And, Division 2 could benefit from another type of vendor.




End Game Progression - Brand Representation

Division 2 has all these brand sets, but yet no other type of physical representation of the companies responsible for their creation. Much like the normal vendors, brand set vendors that sell specific brand sets could be scattered across the map. In settlements, in a random house, in the sewers, a Yaahl vendor in a DZ safe house. Same deal as the previous vendor proposal - XP to level them up to buy higher quality items. Exchanging the specified brand set crafting material for those items could be an option as well.

These brand set vendors are a form of "targeted" grinding, where items you don't need or aren't looking for are filtered out. I am someone who thinks that more brand sets should be added to the game, but this would mean that you wouldn't want to have a vendor for a growing list of brand sets. So, instead, brand set vendors could sell a collection of a couple different brand sets.

You create a vendor level cap as well, and if the game updates with world tiers, and if more brand sets are added to the game, you increase the level cap. This creates a constant sense of progression towards something better than previous.




End Game Progression - Recalibration Station

Recalibration station isn't looking too good. We all know it. We are limited to one slot that can be recalibrated, and, again with the sheer number of slots affected by RNG, this isn't a good thing. Take a Petrov chest piece for example, where it drops with 4 main attribute slots. Because of this, this means that the density of those rolls will be low. So now you would have only one stat recalibrate-able, while the other stats are poor in value. This is even more crippling with recalibration caps.

Because gear in Division 2 offers multiple attribute slots, and as everyone have been saying, allowing us to recalibrate, at least, two makes sense. And, allowing us to recalibrate any attribute with any attribute makes sense. The latter is how it was in Division 1

Let's take a look at Division 1's recalibration station:


https://i.imgur.com/fCZbmxg.jpg

Here you can see that I can recalibrate a critical hit damage roll on a backpack, which in Division 2 would be an offensive attribute, with a health or skill power roll, which would be considered a defensive and utility attribute, respectfully. So in other words, I am able to recalibrate an offensive attribute for a defensive attribute or an offensive attribute for a utility attribute. This is something that you cannot do in Division 2, and I fear the reason being why is because "the RPG is different." In my opinion, I don't think this is credible enough to justify it.

Attribute slots have to be exact. And so we have to go out looking for the "exact", which is insane to find because, again, of the sheer number of slots attributed to RNG. This one attribute restriction has to be lifted, especially on items with 3 or more attribute slots. Those with 2 or less, I think, wouldn't really need this restriction lifted, especially if we are allowed to recalibrate any attribute with any attribute.




End Game Progression - Settlement Upgrades

https://i.imgur.com/2nmaldQ.jpg

This has been on my mind well before WT5 was in the game. I wanted to see if anything would change with them after the WT5 update, but nothing did.

We've done this work to upgrade the settlements to improve the quality of the lives of the civilians, but when I walk up to these upgrades and see the people working, my thoughts are "Soooooo, you guys don't need anything? No extra meds? These kids wouldn't like any of these stuffed animals or toy cars I have in my backpack? Friend, you don't need any extra clean eating utensils for the folks? Hey, you guys over there at woodworking, you don't need extra hammers?"

If we are still "mid-crisis" like we were in Division 1, don't you think these people will constantly need supplies?

With all of these trinkets lying around, settlement upgrades can become a part of the end game progression loop, instead of just being aesthetics. Because then, what you worked to build becomes something you constantly visit to maintain. Like donating supplies to control point officers, donating trinkets to settlement upgrades can reward XP or reward specific items that we constantly use in the end game, like crafting material, brand set crafting materials, faction keys, and if more uses become available, division credits.




End Game Progression - Division Credits

Recalibration station and vendors, who more than likely are selling crap, are the only uses for Division credits right now. Division credit is still an avenue for end game progression. You want to buy a bundle of crafting materials? You want to buy a bounty on the spot? You want to buy exotic components from Cassie? Well how about faction keys? These are just simple examples of what division credits can be spent on. Obviously, tailoring the prices accordingly so that maximum values aren't easily obtained through division credits is recommended, but division credits would now have more prominent uses, rather than just sitting there being collected and only sometimes used if the recalibration station is needed.




Loot - Targeted Grinding

This has been something I've been trying to get across ever since Division 1. (https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1861686-The-Division-2-s-Light-Zone) The idea of targeted grinding is the attempt at creating smaller loot pools that houses a specific list of items. These small pools directly filter out items that you don't need or aren't looking for. Right now, the game has some elements of targeted grinding:


Crashed supply drops in the LZ only drop gear and gear mods
Black Tusk and Outcast key boxes only drop gear and gear mods
True Sons and Hyena key boxes only drop weapons and skill mods
Black Tusk only drop True Patriot and Ongoing Directive
Some bounty targets can drop a specific item as a guaranteed reward (chest, glove, weapon etc.)
And, to an extent, the crafting station


But, in regards to specific gear slots, weapon types, or specific brand sets, in actual activities in the game, targeted grinding doesn't exist.

However, there is an opposing argument that I would like to challenge


I would rather be able to do any activity to have a chance at getting anything.


As I have detailed with the acquisition of that Iguana Gila Chest, the issue with have everything dropping everywhere is that your chances of getting what you are looking for is significantly low. With the many variables that need to be correct before you strike gold, having everything dropping everywhere exacerbates the RNG.

Division 2 has many activities that can accomodate targeted grinding and evidence of how targeted grinding can be executed, in regards to gear, already exists in the game. Think about the location of the leather strap thing you had to get for the exotic holster. It was designated to one specific control point. Same with the Stoner LMG and Carbine 7 when they were introduced.

This means that if one item can be designated to one control point (or mission), multiple items can be designated to multiple control points, instead of all control points. For example, Murakami and Gila gear can be designated to drop from 4 different control points. And, if you really raise that control point level to max, your chances of getting a specific gear slot of those gear drops increases. An SMG and Pistol can also be designated to drop from those same four. Now, Fenris and 5.11 gear can then be designated to drop from 3 different control points, so on and so forth.

Division 2 has a lot of open world activities that can house specific items as a reward. You need Badger gear? Propaganda broadcasts on the west side of the map. You need Providence knees? Territory Controls in the east. The Crash Site control point can also drop those knee pads, along three other brand sets for example.

If you do not play Division for loot, then targeted grinding should not be an issue, as you'll be ignoring the loot anyway. Make your case known to the developers with the strawpoll.

http://www.strawpoll.me/18424250




Loot - A Warning About Brands Sets Being Placed In All Six Slots

This is kind of a call back to RNG. Agents, you may have heard the devs' idea about having all brand sets available in all six slots. At first I thought it sounded great, but then I thought about the RNG.

For instance, currently 10 / 16 (18 if you count gear sets) brand sets have masks available. But, if every brand set were to get a mask, that means this loot pool will increase by 6, only decreasing your chances of getting what you may actually need in that gear slot when you consider the other parts of your build. Then it comes down to available attributes and gear mod slot types. If the way we can recalibrate attributes at the station doesn't change, the approach to gear mod slots doesn't change, variants are still a thing, and there is no targeted grinding, RNG will be HELL.

I just wanted to bring this to your attention if you are someone who is in favor of this pending implementation.




2 Questions To Consider


How do you feel about having multiple avenues of end game progression? Do you think having too many will allow one to reach a perfect build too fast?
How do you feel about Targeted Grinding?






Inventory Management

There are three things that I would like to bring forth about Inventory:


Sharing items on the spot
Sending open world drops straight to stash
Comparing open world drops to items in our stashes


1. If I could share items without having to pick them up first, I would save a lot of time and a lot of items. Currently, I have negative zero inventory space. If I want to share something, I would have to delete something first. And, because overencumbance is a part of a bigger issue, I tend to have a multitude of items with good rolls on them. I would have to delete good rolled items that I want to keep in order to share an item that I don't need. So, if someone says in chat "hey, if you get a <insert item>, let me know", I wouldn't be able to give them the item if I were to get it.

But if I could walk up to that loot drop, inspect it, and then instantly share it without picking it up, this would save a lot of items from being deleted. In addition, designating the drop to only be able to be picked by the one who asked for it would prevent other group members from yoinking it.

2. If I had the option to send new loot drops (or even loot already in my backpack) straight to the stash, my backpack wouldn't be as full and I could continue to stay in the open world longer without having to go to the BoO or a safe house to dump items manually. Loadouts can already pull items directly from the stash, so I can see the convenience of being able to send items directly to it without having to visit it. Pokemon has been doing this since the 90's!

3. I tend to find a lot of weapons that I already have, but don't actually have on my character. Not everyone knows the damage range of each weapon by heart. Probably no one, really. If I could compare a new SIG drop to the SIGs that I have in my stash without picking the new SIG up or visiting my stash, I can gauge whether or not to pick it up right there on the spot. Rather than ignoring the drop, going to my stash to inspect the ones that I already have, and then end up saying "Oh, that was actually a good one."

Also, where is that inventory app for our phones? :rolleyes: If Division 1 once featured an app that allowed another player to control a drone, surely an app that allows us to manage our stash spaces is a walk in the park to make, right? :rolleyes:




End Game - Incursions Mattered

https://cdn.division.zone/uploads/2016/04/tc-the-division-incursions-falcon-lost-underground.jpg

Right now, there isn't a middle ground between Heroic and Raid. There's just an immediate ramp in difficulty, almost like going from a 0 degree horizontal line, to a 90 degree vertical line. Division 2 doesn't have any content that is comparable to an incursion. I assumed that Strongholds were going to be that content, but they turned out to just be extended missions. The term Stronghold isn't an indication of difficulty, but more so an indication of narrative.

Incursions, like I detailed a bit in the RPG section, offered mechanics that made builds feel meaningful. They really fleshed out the RPG. They were easily accessible end game activities. They were always scaled to 4 player groups, matchmake-able, with Heroic as a difficulty option. Bringing back incursions allows players to experience pinnacle end game activities that challenges the RPG a lot smoother than what has to be done in order to experience... let's say, the "normal" raid.

Normal raid should still be harder than a heroic incursion, but heroic incursions would be harder than heroic missions because of additional mechanics, challenge missions, Hard missions, and normal open world activities. This hierarchy of difficulty guides a player into tackling different levels of difficulty without the change being drastic. Like I said previously, I'm sure there is PVE content already planned for the next two episodes, and I know Terry has said "I'd like to focus on the content that we already have", but devs, you must understand why incursions would be beneficial for Division 2. They don't have to be lengthy, or overly complex with puzzles only solvable by astrophysicists, just feature mechanics and gameplay that expresses the RPG elements that is lacking in the other parts of the game, even in the current raid.

You cannot inject RPG into the current raid without rebuilding it.

You have three factions that only exist in the open world - The Outlaws, the Underground, and the Hunters. They are assets for incursions!

The following raids would then only be a continuation or an enhancement of what these incursions would offer.

The map will eventually be expanded. There is already a graphic in game that gives the location of a new settlement. So please, consider having future locations primed for incursions. Obviously, these would need to come after the RPG has been improved in immediate areas first.




PVP


FIX THE JAMMER PULSE M8

But, no, seriously, all of my PVP suggestions have been made here: https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/2030213-Conflict-Skills-and-Talents - a little outdated, but still holds a bit of water. Honestly, I am not a numbers guy. I cannot suggest how PVP can be balanced on the numbers side of things. I can only suggestion improvements to the rock, paper, scissors side of it.






Conclusion

I've made these lengthy threads on multiple topics multiple times, but at this point, I'm ready for the bench, you know? Ready to take a backseat and become a casual player. Devs, understand that you will have those that post "devs you are stupid" or "this game is ****" threads, but this is my attempt at genuinely trying to help you guys.

If the developers want feedback, well then here it is. I've thought about everything that I could think of, and there is probably still some things I forgot. However.. Agents, you may like something that I posted in this OP, but it may not end up in the game. If that ends up being the case, then the only thing that I can say about that is "Hey, at least I tried."

That's the take away, I guess.

Anyways, what's for lunch?

Merphee
08-04-2019, 07:26 PM
reserved for whatever reasons

If you would like to quote a piece of the OP, here is the tag (for a lack of a better term)


[ QUOTE=Merphee;14441727 ],

Just delete spaces between the brackets, highlight and copy the text you would like to quote, paste the text, then write "[/quote]" at the end of the text, without the quotations.

D-Y-N-4-M-O
08-04-2019, 08:13 PM
I just broke my finger on the like button.

I've always thought - where to even start. You've nailed it.

No.Soap4U
08-04-2019, 08:30 PM
#4 Booked for a response.

First, let me say that I appreciate "What happens next?". Criticism - especially in your form -, is always good.

- Improving the RPG - Gear
I'm proud of the sets I assembled, and I'm also proud of the items (many of them) I looted since march. I got two characters at the moment and both of them have several sets. They go from pure damage to pure skill, and I have (lots of) fun using all of them. The Division 2 is only for 5 months available, and there is already more (content) like at the same time of it's predecessor. Not to speak from the 5 tiltle updates MASSIVE released in that short period.

The two Incursions you mentioned are also not require a Reclaimer or an D3FNC, it's good to have them, but they are not essential for both scenarios (immunizer and mobile cover are enough). Furthermore, if you know how it works (and of course you should), you don't need 4 players, 2 are enough for Dragons Nest and Stolen Signal with heroic difficulty. If you have that claim, of course.

Playing The Division and his successor is like being a Watchmaker, it's all about perfection and timing, and there is only one way to open the watch and one way to close it. In other words; repetetive.

To be continued...

xcel30
08-04-2019, 08:45 PM
Since i'm a shameless man (and saw that you mentioned my other crossbow thread), i do think we should talk about the weapon balancing as part of the issue, won't deny that fixing RNG kinda takes a priority, but hte very next step is making sure that people are not just glued into the same 6 gear pieces and using nothing, as whats the point of a person being able to direct their effort into getting all these brands in many ways if only one of them is important, and the same can be said for weapons. Which is way i'm calling myself shameless as i made a thread about pretty much every weapons https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/2086441-General-feedback-on-weapons-(repost-from-PTS)

Eval_Hell
08-04-2019, 08:56 PM
Did someone say ETF?
Some great ideas here 👍🏻

Would personally like to see a more structured class system, where gear becomes secondary and less of an importance to your overall build. Build diversity comes from the choices you make on the skill trees of your chosen class. Gear makes smaller but still significant additions to your build, but not totally dependent on it and relying heavily on RNG.

But literally anything seems better than what we currently have in place.

Ubi-RealDude
08-04-2019, 09:21 PM
Obviously a lot to respond to here. Thanks for taking the time to write all this up in a (quite frankly gorgeous and) easily legible format. I imagine I'll be reading and rereading this quite a bit while making references in my notes.

Edit: The "untitled" title is deceiving. Any plans to change it?

Edit 2: For future comments, please be sure to mention or restate, at least briefly, the sections or points you agree with.
(And please, for the sake of the thread and scroll wheels everywhere, do not quote comment the entire original post.)

Merphee
08-04-2019, 09:21 PM
I just broke my finger on the like button.

I've always thought - where to even start. You've nailed it.

There's a lot here, for sure. That's because a lot had to be said. :)


Since i'm a shameless man (and saw that you mentioned my other crossbow thread), i do think we should talk about the weapon balancing as part of the issue, won't deny that fixing RNG kinda takes a priority, but hte very next step is making sure that people are not just glued into the same 6 gear pieces and using nothing, as whats the point of a person being able to direct their effort into getting all these brands in many ways if only one of them is important, and the same can be said for weapons. Which is way i'm calling myself shameless as i made a thread about pretty much every weapons https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/2086441-General-feedback-on-weapons-(repost-from-PTS)

Weapons are a part of the RPG, 100%. Like I said, I'm not a numbers guy, so I can't talk weapons in that regards. Like they've said, "now is the time" to provide that feedback.


Did someone say ETF?
Some great ideas here ����

Would personally like to see a more structured class system, where gear becomes secondary and less of an importance to your overall build. Build diversity comes from the choices you make on the skill trees of your chosen class. Gear makes smaller but still significant additions to your build, but not totally dependent on it and relying heavily on RNG.

But literally anything seems better than what we currently have in place.

We'd definitely need extended skill trees for that. Both options can improve the RPG, but there is a balance that would need to be struck - do you want more talents tied to a skill tree, or do you want more talents placed on gear and gear sets?

Merphee
08-04-2019, 09:25 PM
Obviously a lot to respond to here. Thanks for taking the time to write all this up in a (quite frankly gorgeous and) easily legible format. I imagine I'll be reading and rereading this quite a bit while making references in my notes.

Edit: The "untitled" title is deceiving. Any plans to change it?

You've got your work cut out for you. :)

Also, yes. I'll change it to "What happens next?", to quote Hamish.

Edit - if a mod could do that, that would be great. :)

xcel30
08-04-2019, 09:31 PM
I'm also not really a numbers guy, so i just try to point out balance issues that can be raised either from how the weapon is on real life vs the function the weapon has in the game, kinda like when you have the obvious big caliber gun being the slow and heavy one vs the more compact smg, so it's mostly discussing why FAL presents certain flaws (low magazine size) with no counterpoint in terms of balance because video games. Similar discussion can be made for the gear sets and other status effects

Eval_Hell
08-04-2019, 09:33 PM
We'd definitely need extended skill trees for that. Both options can improve the RPG, but there is a balance that would need to be struck - do you want more talents tied to a skill tree, or do you want more talents placed on gear and gear sets?

I’d personally say skill trees but whatever way impacts/improves the RPG the most.

Lens00140
08-04-2019, 09:35 PM
Wow great post Merphee:)

I'm not that deep into the game but most if not all of what you have mentioned is spot on!

I'll digest some points and wait for responses here to add discussion, very well done Merph:o

Merphee
08-04-2019, 09:47 PM
I'm also not really a numbers guy, so i just try to point out balance issues that can be raised either from how the weapon is on real life vs the function the weapon has in the game, kinda like when you have the obvious big caliber gun being the slow and heavy one vs the more compact smg, so it's mostly discussing why FAL presents certain flaws (low magazine size) with no counterpoint in terms of balance because video games. Similar discussion can be made for the gear sets and other status effects

Poor FAL.

I've always had this idea of movement and turning speed during hip firing should be determined based on weapon type. So, the heavier the weapon, based on visuals alone, the slower the player's movement and turning speed when hip firing. Movement speed when hip firing with an SMG and pistol wouldn't be affected by this, or possibly even be increased a bit.

Not sure if that's realistic, but it kind of makes sense.

DemizeFPS
08-04-2019, 10:21 PM
Merphee, Great post. I have nothing to add here. You hit the nail on the head. You said everything that needed to be said. Now it's up to the team take this feedback into consideration. You should really apply for the ETF.


Obviously a lot to respond to here. Thanks for taking the time to write all this up in a (quite frankly gorgeous and) easily legible format. I imagine I'll be reading and rereading this quite a bit while making references in my notes.

Edit: The "untitled" title is deceiving. Any plans to change it?

Edit 2: For future comments, please be sure to mention or restate, at least briefly, the sections or points you agree with.
(And please, for the sake of the thread and scroll wheels everywhere, do not quote comment the entire original post.)

I agree with everything. There is literally nothing else to say.

Merphee
08-04-2019, 10:46 PM
Merphee, Great post. I have nothing to add here. You hit the nail on the head. You said everything that needed to be said. Now it's up to the team take this feedback into consideration. You should really apply for the ETF.



I agree with everything. There is literally nothing else to say.

Thing about the ETF is, I'd essentially tell them the same things that I've posted in OP, to be honest. Simply forwarding this thread to the creative directors and producers would save so much time lol.

DemizeFPS
08-04-2019, 11:24 PM
I would say face to face interaction with the creative director will make it more personal and it could sway them to consider it.

PointyMarmot
08-04-2019, 11:50 PM
It got me thinking, how often are specialization weapons used, in general, these days?


First, thank you for an amazing thread! I think you've managed to compile (in depth) what most players would like to see addressed. I would love to discuss every point you made, but in the name of being brief, I'll narrow it down to something I haven't really seen discussed much but something that's worthy of more attention:

You make a great point about the use of specialized weapons. Right now, there's nothing that really calls for specialized weapons to be used. Sure, there's the patches, but other than that there's no real reason to ever use the specialized weapon. I've been running the Gunner since it came out and can probably count on one hand how many times I've actually used it. The mini gun is nice, but honestly I don't feel like it's even as good as my LMG. The only difference is that I can get into cover with my LMG.

More needs to be done when it comes to specializations. You've done an excellent job of touching on that.

Merphee
08-05-2019, 12:18 AM
First, thank you for an amazing thread! I think you've managed to compile (in depth) what most players would like to see addressed. I would love to discuss every point you made, but in the name of being brief, I'll narrow it down to something I haven't really seen discussed much but something that's worthy of more attention:

You make a great point about the use of specialized weapons. Right now, there's nothing that really calls for specialized weapons to be used. Sure, there's the patches, but other than that there's no real reason to ever use the specialized weapon. I've been running the Gunner since it came out and can probably count on one hand how many times I've actually used it. The mini gun is nice, but honestly I don't feel like it's even as good as my LMG. The only difference is that I can get into cover with my LMG.

More needs to be done when it comes to specializations. You've done an excellent job of touching on that.

It comes down to content. General play and normal missions, specialization weapons can be fun to use, but I'm throwing my turret down more than I am using a specialization weapon. Among other aspects of the RPG, pinnacle end game content can really be what calls us to use our specialization weapons, but currently (other than blowing the vent off Razorback) no such content exists.

MutantCowboy x
08-05-2019, 12:22 AM
Bless your heart for trying.... I have..... I had a lot of passion for making this game better. Now I just feel like the town drunk screaming at all the kids on their cell phones for being idiots. I am beyond disappointed by the approach they took with D2. I have tons of ideas to make the game better. It is just the thought of taking even more time from my day to go over something that no matter what will be ignored, over something as awful and pandering as the ETF, no thanks. They have listened to the wrong people or hired the wrong people at almost every turn. It is like half the staff is secretly being paid by EA to kill the game, and the other half have been ignoring what makes every other RPG, looter, shooter, MMO lite type game even worth playing. Honestly it feels like they take the exact cause of the failure and implement it into this game. How can they ignore so many teachable moments?

Seriously mad props though.... I usually take an hour to write some of my longer posts. I can only imagine that with the documentation screen shots and the like, this must have taken way more time then you would like to admit. While I fear it will be an utter waste, I really hope something wakes the dev team at this point.

Want my advice Massive, go make some more D1 content. It is a far stronger core game to work with just revert the DZ back to 1.0 or the TRUE ODZ, you can add a newer normalized version also. Then pump out content, because I still want to explore the central park grave site, and reach the southern end of long island.

TOKYO_ROGUE
08-05-2019, 12:42 AM
You can protect the hostage on stage with a mobile cover (just my 2 cents)

Merphee
08-05-2019, 12:58 AM
You can protect the hostage on stage with a mobile cover (just my 2 cents)

Yeah, unintentionally. :rolleyes:


Bless your heart for trying.... I have..... I had a lot of passion for making this game better. Now I just feel like the town drunk screaming at all the kids on their cell phones for being idiots. I am beyond disappointed by the approach they took with D2. I have tons of ideas to make the game better. It is just the thought of taking even more time from my day to go over something that no matter what will be ignored, over something as awful and pandering as the ETF, no thanks. They have listened to the wrong people or hired the wrong people at almost every turn. It is like half the staff is secretly being paid by EA to kill the game, and the other half have been ignoring what makes every other RPG, looter, shooter, MMO lite type game even worth playing. Honestly it feels like they take the exact cause of the failure and implement it into this game. How can they ignore so many teachable moments?

Seriously mad props though.... I usually take an hour to write some of my longer posts. I can only imagine that with the documentation screen shots and the like, this must have taken way more time then you would like to admit. While I fear it will be an utter waste, I really hope something wakes the dev team at this point.

Want my advice Massive, go make some more D1 content. It is a far stronger core game to work with just revert the DZ back to 1.0 or the TRUE ODZ, you can add a newer normalized version also. Then pump out content, because I still want to explore the central park grave site, and reach the southern end of long island.

The anger is justified. We're kind of in the same boat that we were in during 1.7, 1.8, pre Division 2 announcement when everything seemed bleak. Bright side is that we're not a couple years in.

DK-StoneColdO
08-05-2019, 01:27 AM
Really good points.

I have leveled two chars now, but I am honestly bored now. Don’t know what to play now. Loot is crap, so I don’t bother with dailies. I don’t understand how you could ever release the game with that low a chance to roll something good. You must have the percentage stats available, care to share how they are? Just like FIFA fx shows the chance of a 90+ rated player might be 1,5%. What is the chance of a god roll in TD2, is it really 0,02% as stated?

I tried the discovery raid but ended up in a group with some extremely rude “I know it all and you are all ****e” types, after a couple of wipes on Razorback they ditched all and left. Kinda made me don’t want to try again.

Vendors needs to offer just one relevant item or week, anything really, why am I offered lvl 474 gear as WT5 with more or less highest possible gear.

Gear sets, green in particular needs to provide something over yellow gear. Let us grind for exotic gear sets as well.



I want content and I want something to play for. Something to grind for. Let me do x amount of things for named loot like the Eagle Bearer or similar, just like the Kenly College.

Merphee
08-05-2019, 01:42 AM
Really good points.

I have leveled two chars now, but I am honestly bored now. Don’t know what to play now. Loot is crap, so I don’t bother with dailies. I don’t understand how you could ever release the game with that low a chance to roll something good. You must have the percentage stats available, care to share how they are? Just like FIFA fx shows the chance of a 90+ rated player might be 1,5%. What is the chance of a god roll in TD2, is it really 0,02% as stated?

I tried the discovery raid but ended up in a group with some extremely rude “I know it all and you are all ****e” types, after a couple of wipes on Razorback they ditched all and left. Kinda made me don’t want to try again.

Vendors needs to offer just one relevant item or week, anything really, why am I offered lvl 474 gear as WT5 with more or less highest possible gear.

Gear sets, green in particular needs to provide something over yellow gear. Let us grind for exotic gear sets as well.



I want content and I want something to play for. Something to grind for. Let me do x amount of things for named loot like the Eagle Bearer or similar, just like the Kenly College.

If my math was correct, then yes, finding that exact chest on a drop would be 0.02%. But this sort of percentage only affects chests and backpacks, You'll have an easier time finding a D&H kneepad with crit damage because offensive and utility attributes are the only attributes that rolls on it and there are only two offensive stats that can actually roll there (crit damage and crit chance) and two utility attributes (skill power and cooldown reduction.) With some brand sets, like Fenris holster and knees, and sokolov mask for example, the RNG is definitely greater there because more slots for attributes and talents are on them.

If a lot of new loot isn't introduced at once, and instead only a handful is, it will feel like there is nothing new at all, especially if you obtain those items in less than a day. You'd still be stuck with the same items you've had since day one of the game's release.

bobwalt
08-05-2019, 01:52 AM
I think the easiest fix for PvP would be to make going rogue have true consequences. In addition, Damage to Elites should affect rogues and only rogues.

Goo-Goo-Man
08-05-2019, 02:49 AM
Thing about the ETF is, I'd essentially tell them the same things that I've posted in OP, to be honest. Simply forwarding this thread to the creative directors and producers would save so much time lol.

Yeah, was bound to happen Old Friend, you know, the day that comes around when I actually disagree with you...….:rolleyes:

Yep, todays that day.

Trust me when I tell you that there is a very real difference between people reading something and people being told something. Then again I'm sure you know this.

You NEED to TELL them.

I'm winding up to kick some doors down and bust some heads if you don't make the ETF...…..

Your passion and ability to challenge that passion into a coherent, intelligent and above all, constructive argument is an asset to the Community and one that Massive will be stooopid not to take advantage of.

So yeah, please, if you have the chance, tell them nicely. If they don't listen, please, shout! Sometimes it takes a little persuading......

III_Hammer_III
08-05-2019, 04:55 AM
Long read.
Is there mention of the optimization station anywhere? That's all I really want .

RedIndianRobin
08-05-2019, 05:26 AM
Damn after reading your post, here is my 2 cents:

Fire the Terry guy or whoever is the Creative director at Redstorm Entertainment and hire this OP for creative changes.

Kudos man! If only I could upvote you more.

MutantCowboy x
08-05-2019, 06:45 AM
I was just thinking about the LZ thread and all the suggestions that came from it.... Does it really seem like the LZ got better to you? I mean besides from putting icons over enemy patrols so it looks like there is more to do... It really feels the same just more densely populated. Nothing random ever happens with the exception of stumbling across sewer people as they emerge for the night. I remember talking about how it would be cool to have random clues or radio calls to investigate that happen in real time offering large amounts of replay value, or having gangs of Rikers hiding in alleyways to ambush you. Creating surprise missions that force you to fight through a building. Hell it seems that the amount of random exploration is pretty low too. I mean almost every location is already linked to a mission, side mission, bounty, SHD cache, or whatever. So you hardly ever explore a location just because. unless you forgot you had already been there for the 3rd or 4th time :D

I don't know Merphee, it feels like with the games basic design it would require an almost full rewrite to get the systems in proper working order... I guess we need to go with the poor entrepreneur approach. Create cheap work arounds with assets already in game that would not require much extra code. For example Fixing Skill builds by adding mods up to 5000 SP even if that is not realistic for most builds now. Then adding 3 additional mod slots to each skill, they would be locked unless the user had 2500 SP 3500 SP and 4500 SP. this would allow skill power to mean something without the more complex fix of reworking the entire skill mod system.

They could and should add a better level of HE gear. Which would be almost exactly like the D1 HE gear. With their own unique talents like savage, reckless, or relentless. Allowing players to just ignore the Brand set disaster if they so choose.

Now you got me making more pointless suggests, I hope you are happy....

gamingforeverhg
08-05-2019, 08:31 AM
What a amazing and great read with real great suggestions and I agree 100% with the OP on all of these

DarkKnight27us
08-05-2019, 08:44 AM
I pretty much agree with everything in here. A lot of these propositions would certainly improve the game and make it a better experience for pretty much everyone. I really hope that the devs really take some of these suggestions to heart and work on implementing them into the game.

CrabsJohnson
08-05-2019, 09:13 AM
Commenting just for exposure, excellent write-up

Ubi-Alien
08-05-2019, 09:52 AM
You've got your work cut out for you. :)

Also, yes. I'll change it to "What happens next?", to quote Hamish.

Edit - if a mod could do that, that would be great. :)

I've changed the thread title accordingly.

That being said, what an amazing thread here, Merphee. I'm impressed :O

TOKYO_ROGUE
08-05-2019, 10:09 AM
what an amazing thread here, Merphee. I'm impressed :O

Yes, we could say that, meanwhile.. ain't need to be einstein to know the problem of this game, meanwhile.. they need some einstein in massive studio (not gonna mention ubisoft) coz you guys just stamp you name on this game.

Cadillac-Jack
08-05-2019, 10:21 AM
I knew this thread was coming and it came in like a wrecking ball.

Good stuff Merphee my old friend (Ahh! the old LZ thread :) part 2.3,4 and 5 all in one ha ha ha.

Anyways you need to be in the ETF as a voice for us the community and not some paid up ytubr, I have many many ideas and thoughts i'd like to say but I know it'll all get ignored.

But I will say this little piece, there are reasons I play this game less and less, and go play Div 1 and Destiny 2 more, div 1 for the builds I think I have approx. 14 builds in div 1 all act and play somewhat differently for all activities, heck even the DZ in div 1 feels better.

Destiny 2 they had the very same problem this game and it's dwindling playerbase had, loot everywhere for everything with an RNG almost like this one's, but they changed it and changed it in a way where Targeted loot is the norm (want that specific gun or armour piece play that event/mission/strike etc etc etc.)

The upside of this change to Destiny 2 is they started recording numbers as high as a million concurrent players per day (yes its dropped off again but it's still high) compared to it's previous numbers. (so something worked) oh yeah targeted loot knowing what you'll get and where you'll get it (even if its a choice of 3 or 4 different things.

You complete the strike you WILL get one of these or the Menagerie, but the very best guns/gear is still rare to get.

Now i'm not saying Destiny 2 is great or the standout game, but the example is they listened and changed to what a lot of people wanted and their player numbers shot through the roof. Destiny 2 isn't perfect far from it and it still has problems, but it looks like its changing for the better.

So it's down to you Massive/Ubi etc etc etc.

Everything else I want to say well that'll take a lot of space in here and quite frankly I think it'll be as before ignored.


As for what happens next well that depends on the stubbornness and bloody mindedness of the Dev team they either listen to themselves or select few or open up and listen to the whole community if they can.

Peace:

zXCpt.PriceXz
08-05-2019, 10:46 AM
Agree with OP on every point. But the thing is why ubisoft didn't learned what was good in Division 1 should be transferred to Division 2? Did they do it on purpose to frustrate people? Clearly there was no vision and they wanted playerbase to suffer problems like RnG, content, no RPG, weak gearset, timegating exotics etc

zigMAGNA
08-05-2019, 10:46 AM
A lot to digest here..
admittedly i glanced through most of it.. bc i feel i got the grasp of most of what is said.

If we want build diversity.. then we are saying we want different ways to tackle the content..
but many have already said.. they like playing builds such as medics/healers.. tanks..etc .... so do we really have content that necessitates that?... bc right now.. the standard fare blow through the content fast with guns .. or seekers (which is top notch tackle 5+ enemies with massive dmg skill) are the best ways to blow through the content at a breeze..

Is there any section currently in the game where we need builds that are considered roles...? I don't think there is...
And when i compare things recently added like the Zoo, Camp White Oak and Expeditions (Kenly College/library and Metro)... what do I see .. how does that differ from all pre-TU5 content?

End content for most PVEer's has been.. daily and weekly projects, Invaded missions, Bounties (Weekly and clan and a few priority ones).. and then whatever the player prefers.. most prefer doing CP4's for loot farming.. Other's do DZ.. or Raid...
When Expeditions came into the mix and the new Ep 1 missions.. I thought they were too long for "daily projects".. just my opinion.

After doing all these.. i got bored.. honestly.
I am currently working on a shield/pistol build *finally**...
But once I am done optimizing that.. i think I will be bored again and not really truly motivated to play more... i didn't think I would say that.. but nearly 900 hours sunk into the game.. I think I have reached that point.

We will see.. i still enjoy hunting for top end roll gears.. but the content has started to become a bore.
Open world events would be great to see if they get to that for future content.

Inventory.. well i have said alot regarding that.. i just think it's terribly constricting .. we need more space.. bottom line.
Sharing is terrible.. if we have to scroll through our inventory to find the items we wish to share.. we should have a multiple item share feature... or marking abilities for multiple items to share. Sharing is one method to overcoming RNG. Many players seem to overlook this I think.

Brand identity.. making all sets to 6.. would definitely increase the loot pool.. but would be fine only if crafting and blueprints supported those pieces/brands better. Of course they could keep it in odd amounts per brand.. but then i hope the devs work out all the permutations so they know what an end game "pistol" build.. (or whatever build they are thinking) might look like with XYZ brand.. as opposed to some other brand.. but those permutations would just blow my brains out...

Settlement upgrading .. even "ally friendly CP reinforcing".. would be cool.. and a way to tie into open world events...
that's all i think I will comment on for now..

Davidsooonobi
08-05-2019, 10:55 AM
Nice topic and article..

I have problem with god rolls atribute. I never see most unfriendly drop chance these atribute in games. Yea best atribute had worst drop chance OK. But in this game? 0,0013-0,0030%? WTF UBISOFT. Why should people go after something if the game doesn't reward them at all? Example hard activity in game have chance drop same items with same atribute or lowest atribute as easily activity in game. Why HC activity drops PURPLE items? What a logic. Why HC activity and normal raid doesnt have better % chance these atribute? So that the player doesn't have it right away? And did they stop playing??
It should be balanced, but here it is all wrong. This is perhaps the only game in the world where even after 1000-2000 hours you do not have anything from god atribute. I applaud the developer who worked on this. Nobody wants it to be easy, but here it is impossible. There is something unimaginable to play for a few weeks and a month and nothing drop to improvements my build. 98% people in this game havent see god roll items, after 5 month in realese. Look at on leaderboards, how many people have ONE god atribute ? 0,0013%? . This is not good. This is big problem in end game. People cannot improve builds because they cannot. Balanced not easy ok, but not impossible.

Auztinito
08-05-2019, 11:01 AM
I very much agree with the first half. I agree with Specializations and the weapons. No one should think well I don’t need to use Tac 50. because a Nemesis can outperform it.

XahRith16
08-05-2019, 11:33 AM
Merphee ,

Like previous mega threads you write they all belong in a gaming Hall of Fame.:cool:

DemizeFPS
08-05-2019, 12:11 PM
Yeah, was bound to happen Old Friend, you know, the day that comes around when I actually disagree with you...….:rolleyes:

Yep, todays that day.

Trust me when I tell you that there is a very real difference between people reading something and people being told something. Then again I'm sure you know this.

You NEED to TELL them.

I'm winding up to kick some doors down and bust some heads if you don't make the ETF...…..

Your passion and ability to challenge that passion into a coherent, intelligent and above all, constructive argument is an asset to the Community and one that Massive will be stooopid not to take advantage of.

So yeah, please, if you have the chance, tell them nicely. If they don't listen, please, shout! Sometimes it takes a little persuading......


I agree with Goo-Goo-Man.
Your ability to channel your passion into a coherent, intelligent and above all, constructive argument is an asset. I hope you will consider it.



Can we get this thread stickied?

Merphee
08-05-2019, 12:12 PM
I was just thinking about the LZ thread and all the suggestions that came from it.... Does it really seem like the LZ got better to you? I mean besides from putting icons over enemy patrols so it looks like there is more to do... It really feels the same just more densely populated. Nothing random ever happens with the exception of stumbling across sewer people as they emerge for the night. I remember talking about how it would be cool to have random clues or radio calls to investigate that happen in real time offering large amounts of replay value, or having gangs of Rikers hiding in alleyways to ambush you. Creating surprise missions that force you to fight through a building. Hell it seems that the amount of random exploration is pretty low too. I mean almost every location is already linked to a mission, side mission, bounty, SHD cache, or whatever. So you hardly ever explore a location just because. unless you forgot you had already been there for the 3rd or 4th time :D

I don't know Merphee, it feels like with the games basic design it would require an almost full rewrite to get the systems in proper working order... I guess we need to go with the poor entrepreneur approach. Create cheap work arounds with assets already in game that would not require much extra code. For example Fixing Skill builds by adding mods up to 5000 SP even if that is not realistic for most builds now. Then adding 3 additional mod slots to each skill, they would be locked unless the user had 2500 SP 3500 SP and 4500 SP. this would allow skill power to mean something without the more complex fix of reworking the entire skill mod system.

They could and should add a better level of HE gear. Which would be almost exactly like the D1 HE gear. With their own unique talents like savage, reckless, or relentless. Allowing players to just ignore the Brand set disaster if they so choose.

Now you got me making more pointless suggests, I hope you are happy....

On a basic level, yeah, the LZ got much better from Division 1. I think we're just at a point where none of it is surprising anymore. Those activities aren't question marks anymore. Randomness of missions was kind of thwarted because we had to visit the safe houses across the districts in order to get side missions to pop up on the map. So that element of "surprise, here is a side mission out of nowhere" was absent.

But even so, how often were you in West Side Piers doing those missions? I know I wasn't, to be honest.

At this point, any new "random" PVE stuff has to be thrown into the DZ. Activities that pushes the entire server into one centralized spot to really bring out the DZ's identity, instigating PVP and all. Based on the loot that drops from DZ drops, it's not an activity that does that so well.



A lot to digest here..
admittedly i glanced through most of it.. bc i feel i got the grasp of most of what is said.

If we want build diversity.. then we are saying we want different ways to tackle the content..
but many have already said.. they like playing builds such as medics/healers.. tanks..etc .... so do we really have content that necessitates that?... bc right now.. the standard fare blow through the content fast with guns .. or seekers (which is top notch tackle 5+ enemies with massive dmg skill) are the best ways to blow through the content at a breeze..

Is there any section currently in the game where we need builds that are considered roles...? I don't think there is...
And when i compare things recently added like the Zoo, Camp White Oak and Expeditions (Kenly College/library and Metro)... what do I see .. how does that differ from all pre-TU5 content?

End content for most PVEer's has been.. daily and weekly projects, Invaded missions, Bounties (Weekly and clan and a few priority ones).. and then whatever the player prefers.. most prefer doing CP4's for loot farming.. Other's do DZ.. or Raid...
When Expeditions came into the mix and the new Ep 1 missions.. I thought they were too long for "daily projects".. just my opinion.

After doing all these.. i got bored.. honestly.
I am currently working on a shield/pistol build *finally**...
But once I am done optimizing that.. i think I will be bored again and not really truly motivated to play more... i didn't think I would say that.. but nearly 900 hours sunk into the game.. I think I have reached that point.

We will see.. i still enjoy hunting for top end roll gears.. but the content has started to become a bore.
Open world events would be great to see if they get to that for future content.

Inventory.. well i have said alot regarding that.. i just think it's terribly constricting .. we need more space.. bottom line.
Sharing is terrible.. if we have to scroll through our inventory to find the items we wish to share.. we should have a multiple item share feature... or marking abilities for multiple items to share. Sharing is one method to overcoming RNG. Many players seem to overlook this I think.

Brand identity.. making all sets to 6.. would definitely increase the loot pool.. but would be fine only if crafting and blueprints supported those pieces/brands better. Of course they could keep it in odd amounts per brand.. but then i hope the devs work out all the permutations so they know what an end game "pistol" build.. (or whatever build they are thinking) might look like with XYZ brand.. as opposed to some other brand.. but those permutations would just blow my brains out...

Settlement upgrading .. even "ally friendly CP reinforcing".. would be cool.. and a way to tie into open world events...
that's all i think I will comment on for now..

We need those incursions back.

Those were the activities that made builds feel meaningful outside of general play because they challenged the RPG by throwing mechanics at us that weren't all manageable by DPS. Resistance as well. Not everyone needed DPS, not everyone needed to be a healer. We just needed one guy to run Final Measure to protect the group from mortars in Falcon Lost and Clear Sky, and one guy to run Reclamer in Dragon's Nest to soothe our burn wounds, for example.

Division 2 lacks that. So I can understand the boredom.


Agree with OP on every point. But the thing is why ubisoft didn't learned what was good in Division 1 should be transferred to Division 2? Did they do it on purpose to frustrate people? Clearly there was no vision and they wanted playerbase to suffer problems like RnG, content, no RPG, weak gearset, timegating exotics etc

Time gated exotics would be cool if there were more alternatives to go after in the "meantime." WT5 came with only two exotics, TU5 came with two. Micro dosing exotics and gear in general, people will get bored fast, because it would feel like nothing new was added at all. No immediate encounter with new stuff.

I remember 1.5 in Division 1, where Survival caches rewarded 1.5 only stuff. It was great, but then they changed it...

Merphee
08-05-2019, 12:14 PM
I agree with Goo-Goo-Man.
Your ability to channel your passion into a coherent, intelligent and above all, constructive argument is an asset. I hope you will consider it.



Can we get this thread stickied?

Well, let's hope I have a passport by then. :)

Sharpandpointy
08-05-2019, 12:29 PM
Fantastic thread murphee, as always!

Played for the first time in two weeks this weekend. Slapped together a skill build with crap I just found in the dark zone, and it sort of functioned. Game has potential, I guess, so I hope someone out there is listening to your rather brilliant words.

YodaMan 3D
08-05-2019, 12:52 PM
I was just thinking about the LZ thread and all the suggestions that came from it.... Does it really seem like the LZ got better to you? I mean besides from putting icons over enemy patrols so it looks like there is more to do... It really feels the same just more densely populated. Nothing random ever happens with the exception of stumbling across sewer people as they emerge for the night. I remember talking about how it would be cool to have random clues or radio calls to investigate that happen in real time offering large amounts of replay value, or having gangs of Rikers hiding in alleyways to ambush you. Creating surprise missions that force you to fight through a building. Hell it seems that the amount of random exploration is pretty low too. I mean almost every location is already linked to a mission, side mission, bounty, SHD cache, or whatever. So you hardly ever explore a location just because. unless you forgot you had already been there for the 3rd or 4th time :D

I don't know Merphee, it feels like with the games basic design it would require an almost full rewrite to get the systems in proper working order... I guess we need to go with the poor entrepreneur approach. Create cheap work arounds with assets already in game that would not require much extra code. For example Fixing Skill builds by adding mods up to 5000 SP even if that is not realistic for most builds now. Then adding 3 additional mod slots to each skill, they would be locked unless the user had 2500 SP 3500 SP and 4500 SP. this would allow skill power to mean something without the more complex fix of reworking the entire skill mod system.

They could and should add a better level of HE gear. Which would be almost exactly like the D1 HE gear. With their own unique talents like savage, reckless, or relentless. Allowing players to just ignore the Brand set disaster if they so choose.

Now you got me making more pointless suggests, I hope you are happy....

Sorry to hear that the game isn't your expectations. For me it is awesome, cause with the lag that I have been getting from servers. Running from one point to another, I can't tell you how many times I had NPCs just spawn right on top of me and in a few cases have been downed before they are even visible, so could would never be able to even defend myself even if I knew they was there. Good Times.

poorandfat88
08-05-2019, 12:54 PM
This is the longest post I have read from start to finish. Great write-up!!! I agree with almost everything.

I love this game, the setting. locations and mission are all a joy. I really liked most of the added stuff as well, ep. 1, classified missions etc. Amazing how much good content there is in a relatively new game.

Nevertheless I am taking a break because I can't spend 85% of my pretty limited time managing inventory. So the RNG/Inventory thing would be my personal priority. The gear and skill mods are making me want to uninstall.The inability to at a glance see how good an item is, frankly, is mind boggling. If we are jokingly pointing fingers at who to fire at the dev xmas party I would throw the name of whoever came up with the idea of not having ranges displayed and having GS mean nothing into the ring.

Riflemania
08-05-2019, 01:59 PM
Very nice write up indeed, makes my posts look like a story out of kindergarten:o

Merphee
08-05-2019, 03:33 PM
This is the longest post I have read from start to finish. Great write-up!!! I agree with almost everything.

I love this game, the setting. locations and mission are all a joy. I really liked most of the added stuff as well, ep. 1, classified missions etc. Amazing how much good content there is in a relatively new game.

Nevertheless I am taking a break because I can't spend 85% of my pretty limited time managing inventory. So the RNG/Inventory thing would be my personal priority. The gear and skill mods are making me want to uninstall.The inability to at a glance see how good an item is, frankly, is mind boggling. If we are jokingly pointing fingers at who to fire at the dev xmas party I would throw the name of whoever came up with the idea of not having ranges displayed and having GS mean nothing into the ring.

The Metro area in Kenly College reminded me a lot of Underground. Those memories came flooding back.

The gear mod situation became alarming when I wanted to make a specific 4-7-9 build. I needed everything to be exact and nothing couldn't have been substituted. That's when I realized how unnecessary variants were. I'm sure many have uninstalled for the same reasons you want to. The game hurts you more than it helps you.

elhefe_
08-05-2019, 04:09 PM
EVERYTHING


god dan dude! this is what I'm talking about, you should be head creative director of this game.
I would love to see everything you said implemented

Merphee
08-05-2019, 05:09 PM
god dan dude! this is what I'm talking about, you should be head creative director of this game.
I would love to see everything you said implemented

Hey, I just sat down and typed something, that was all. :)

I think it's just a matter of, as a player, whether or not you believe it will be worth the time to do so.

LubzinNJ
08-05-2019, 05:17 PM
Couldn't agree more with most of what you wrote....frankly I didn't read it all because my primary concern right now is the loot and how we get to a point where playing the game feels rewarding more than just playing because the gameplay itself is fun.

DarkKnight27us
08-05-2019, 05:18 PM
Not only was the OP very well stated and thought out, but many of the responses have been very good as well.

MutantCowboy x
08-05-2019, 05:37 PM
On a basic level, yeah, the LZ got much better from Division 1. I think we're just at a point where none of it is surprising anymore. Those activities aren't question marks anymore. Randomness of missions was kind of thwarted because we had to visit the safe houses across the districts in order to get side missions to pop up on the map. So that element of "surprise, here is a side mission out of nowhere" was absent.

But even so, how often were you in West Side Piers doing those missions? I know I wasn't, to be honest.

At this point, any new "random" PVE stuff has to be thrown into the DZ. Activities that pushes the entire server into one centralized spot to really bring out the DZ's identity, instigating PVP and all. Based on the loot that drops from DZ drops, it's not an activity that does that so well.


I am not talking about random in terms of every time you walk here you have a mission, we randomly fill the map with activities, or every 30 ft you are surrounded by WSP enemies. I am talking about adding some really rare events that you may only find 2 or 3 times from spending a hundred hours in the DZ. You know the stuff that makes you actually want to find it or run around more to increase the chances. Like how some MMO games have that F'ing insane world boss spawn in the middle of nowhere, and you really really need a full raid group just to fight it. Or how they have the rare mobs that actually drop loot worth finding.... yeah we got some named enemies but do you ever get something from killing them. Sure I got the cards, but now they are just there. None of them were actually hard, even with the skills they lacked the tactics to use them correctly. The one guy blinded me just to sit in cover and do nothing. I want to find those situation that we see in our video logs or like those from Div 1 with the cops going down an alley and suddenly a body falls on the car and they are surrounded. Something that actually speaks to the realism of the situation.... not just us showing up to some guys walking in circles. We had that in D1 it is not improved by them just adding titles to what we are doing....

As for the DZ, I disagree that it should be the place to just dump things. Should it have its own unique features, hell yeah. I honestly miss the vendors and blueprints in the DZ, they really gave reasons to have high rank and earn coin. I don't care that players felt locked out of it.... they don't play the DZ or PVP regardless, so should everything be designed only for content that every one will do... Because that would mean the first time you log on you get everything in the game. Because 50% of players won't even "beat" the story, Christ, some players never even make it to the White House. Is that how we should set the games standards to appease the players who won't even play the game?

Merphee
08-05-2019, 05:39 PM
Couldn't agree more with most of what you wrote....frankly I didn't read it all because my primary concern right now is the loot and how we get to a point where playing the game feels rewarding more than just playing because the gameplay itself is fun.

Everything drops everywhere, which puts more emphasis on gameplay than rewarding loot.
Purple items still drops in World Tiers. Gear variants with incremental differences exist. These things only dilute the loot pool.
Value ranges on attributes are extreme between their lowest value and their highest on some stats.

The game won't feel rewarding if these things aren't changed.

LubzinNJ
08-05-2019, 05:44 PM
Everything drops everywhere, which puts more emphasis on gameplay than rewarding loot.
Purple items still drops in World Tiers. Gear variants with incremental differences exist. These things only dilute the loot pool.
Value ranges on attributes are extreme between their lowest value and their highest on some stats.

The game won't feel rewarding if these things aren't changed.

They also need to rethink how armor and attribute rolls come from a common max pool

Merphee
08-05-2019, 05:54 PM
I am not talking about random in terms of every time you walk here you have a mission, we randomly fill the map with activities, or every 30 ft you are surrounded by WSP enemies. I am talking about adding some really rare events that you may only find 2 or 3 times from spending a hundred hours in the DZ. You know the stuff that makes you actually want to find it or run around more to increase the chances. Like how some MMO games have that F'ing insane world boss spawn in the middle of nowhere, and you really really need a full raid group just to fight it. Or how they have the rare mobs that actually drop loot worth finding.... yeah we got some named enemies but do you ever get something from killing them. Sure I got the cards, but now they are just there. None of them were actually hard, even with the skills they lacked the tactics to use them correctly. The one guy blinded me just to sit in cover and do nothing. I want to find those situation that we see in our video logs or like those from Div 1 with the cops going down an alley and suddenly a body falls on the car and they are surrounded. Something that actually speaks to the realism of the situation.... not just us showing up to some guys walking in circles. We had that in D1 it is not improved by them just adding titles to what we are doing....

I think implementing these features come down to who the devs want the game to appeal to the most.

MutantCowboy x
08-05-2019, 06:27 PM
I think implementing these features come down to who the devs want the game to appeal to the most.

Well it always does, but features like that are not a turnoff to the game unlike some of the choices they make. Having reasons to wander about the LZ was never a reason I saw for a person to quit. Either way the game needs to offer events, loot, raids and whatever that might be no go to some. Nothing good comes from offering everyone everything. Like I said you could just give everyone all the loot as soon as they log in because someone somewhere will not finish the opening sequence....

DarkKnight27us
08-05-2019, 06:44 PM
As for the DZ, I disagree that it should be the place to just dump things. Should it have its own unique features, hell yeah. I honestly miss the vendors and blueprints in the DZ, they really gave reasons to have high rank and earn coin. I don't care that players felt locked out of it.... they don't play the DZ or PVP regardless, so should everything be designed only for content that every one will do... Because that would mean the first time you log on you get everything in the game. Because 50% of players won't even "beat" the story, Christ, some players never even make it to the White House. Is that how we should set the games standards to appease the players who won't even play the game?

The DZ should not have anything exclusive in it that makes PvE players feel like they need to go into the DZ and deal with all the horrible people in there just to play the PvE part of the game. Your hyperbole that 50% of the players won't "beat the story" is ridiculous and even more so is that some players "never make it to the White House". The if you want exclusive gear from the DZ then it should be gear that can only be used in the DZ but trying to turn the current DZ into some more like the DZ from the first game is a HUGE mistake. Myself and many others don't want to deal with the griefers that flock to the DZ in hopes of ruining other peoples fun and making the DZ like it was in the first game caters to those kinds of players and creates an even more toxic atmosphere than the DZ currently fosters.

Honestly, the DZ should not be a PvP zone at all. The DZ should be a PvE only zone that offers special "boss" missions on a random basis and requires large groups of players (make the zones actual MMO open world) to successfully complete. Perhaps if the boss isn't defeated it could have an actual affect on the rest of the game world, maybe giving mobs bonuses to damage or defense or greater numbers or something.

Leave PvP to Conflict or remove it completely from the game.

NOBL3II
08-05-2019, 06:52 PM
I have just one thing to say:

Please invite Agent Merphee to the upcoming ETF!

Have a nice day ✌️

Merphee
08-05-2019, 07:15 PM
The DZ should not have anything exclusive in it that makes PvE players feel like they need to go into the DZ and deal with all the horrible people in there just to play the PvE part of the game. Your hyperbole that 50% of the players won't "beat the story" is ridiculous and even more so is that some players "never make it to the White House". The if you want exclusive gear from the DZ then it should be gear that can only be used in the DZ but trying to turn the current DZ into some more like the DZ from the first game is a HUGE mistake. Myself and many others don't want to deal with the griefers that flock to the DZ in hopes of ruining other peoples fun and making the DZ like it was in the first game caters to those kinds of players and creates an even more toxic atmosphere than the DZ currently fosters.

Honestly, the DZ should not be a PvP zone at all. The DZ should be a PvE only zone that offers special "boss" missions on a random basis and requires large groups of players (make the zones actual MMO open world) to successfully complete. Perhaps if the boss isn't defeated it could have an actual affect on the rest of the game world, maybe giving mobs bonuses to damage or defense or greater numbers or something.

Leave PvP to Conflict or remove it completely from the game.

DZ had the contamination events in Division 1, something that wasn't a thing in its LZ, so if you wanted to experience a "world event" of some sort, that was the only place to do so.

The current LZ has everything Division 1's and Division 2's DZ has, and then some, except it's all yours and no one else's. So, the DZ getting its own unique PVPVE content is a legitimate request. It's still a part of the game that shouldn't be ignored. I certainly want more events in there, because I still can hold my own in PVP. And, I should expect PVP in PVPVE space. It may not be 100% PVP all the time, but that just adds to what the DZ can bring out.

I think it comes down to fairness. You can support LZ suggestions, but you must understand why those that enjoy DZ, PVP and all, have their issues with it and have their requests and must sympathize as to why they may be upset.

Dre_G_Writer
08-05-2019, 07:34 PM
Edit 2: For future comments, please be sure to mention or restate, at least briefly, the sections or points you agree with.
(And please, for the sake of the thread and scroll wheels everywhere, do not quote comment the entire original post.)

TO be honest, every single point OP said is like, right on the head.

Every single one of them, beside PVP( dont do PVP so I have no knowledge of whats good or whats bad) but all the PVE points OP made, ALL of them needs to be taken into consideration because the issues OP pointed out are exactly what the community has been going on about for months now.

The Dev team will have their work cut out for them, as Im sure entire systems may need to be rebuilt from the ground up and future plans thats already under-way in being developed my have to be changed, and that means longer develop time and more resources than planned being needed. but if the team wants this game to move from a good game to be a GREAT game, with a million or so player daily average like say, DESTINY 2 is now, I believe, its a necessary decision.

I REALLY want this game to be a popular game.

Also, Merphee should get TOP ROUND pick for your elite task force. Dudes feedback is invaluable.

DarkKnight27us
08-05-2019, 08:53 PM
DZ had the contamination events in Division 1, something that wasn't a thing in its LZ, so if you wanted to experience a "world event" of some sort, that was the only place to do so.

The current LZ has everything Division 1's and Division 2's DZ has, and then some, except it's all yours and no one else's. So, the DZ getting its own unique PVPVE content is a legitimate request. It's still a part of the game that shouldn't be ignored. I certainly want more events in there, because I still can hold my own in PVP. And, I should expect PVP in PVPVE space. It may not be 100% PVP all the time, but that just adds to what the DZ can bring out.

I think it comes down to fairness. You can support LZ suggestions, but you must understand why those that enjoy DZ, PVP and all, have their issues with it and have their requests and must sympathize as to why they may be upset.

I never did any of those because the DZ gankfest was not worth participating in. In the Division 1 the DZ was set up specifically to draw in the PvE players to be fodder for the PvP players. It's one of the reasons I stopped played D1 and several people I know never players D1. The Division 2 DZ is a little better but it still caters to gankers and griefers.

Personally, what I think the devs should do is have a switch you set as you enter the DZ. That switch would let you either participate in the PvP aspect of the DZ or make you completely immune to the PvP aspect, you can't shoot another agent or steal from them and you can't get shot or be stolen from.

Either that or make it so that if a rogue agent is killed while rogue, they lose all their gear and the character gets permanently deleted. As it is now, there's absolutely no penalty for being a ******bag in the DZ.

Personally, I don't like being fodder for the PvP players because the game has locked some PvE content behind the griefer's paradise that is the DZ so like I said, if they're going to put exclusive drops in the DZ, make those drops be usable ONLY in the DZ. Or just get rid of the PvP Dark Zones all together and make the PvE and then they could do some truly fun and interesting things with them.

AirJarhead
08-05-2019, 09:25 PM
I would play, and love, this game for years if they made all of these changes!
I added a link to your reddit post in my compilation of loot dicussions:
https://www.reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/ckwmnv/a_compilation_of_popular_loot_discussions/

Merphee
08-05-2019, 11:04 PM
I would play, and love, this game for years if they made all of these changes!
I added a link to your reddit post in my compilation of loot dicussions:
https://www.reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/ckwmnv/a_compilation_of_popular_loot_discussions/

I thank you.

My apologies for the length, a lot just had to be said. :)


TO be honest, every single point OP said is like, right on the head.

Every single one of them, beside PVP( dont do PVP so I have no knowledge of whats good or whats bad) but all the PVE points OP made, ALL of them needs to be taken into consideration because the issues OP pointed out are exactly what the community has been going on about for months now.

The Dev team will have their work cut out for them, as Im sure entire systems may need to be rebuilt from the ground up and future plans thats already under-way in being developed my have to be changed, and that means longer develop time and more resources than planned being needed. but if the team wants this game to move from a good game to be a GREAT game, with a million or so player daily average like say, DESTINY 2 is now, I believe, its a necessary decision.

I REALLY want this game to be a popular game.

Also, Merphee should get TOP ROUND pick for your elite task force. Dudes feedback is invaluable.

Couldn't have said it better myself.


I never did any of those because the DZ gankfest was not worth participating in. In the Division 1 the DZ was set up specifically to draw in the PvE players to be fodder for the PvP players. It's one of the reasons I stopped played D1 and several people I know never players D1. The Division 2 DZ is a little better but it still caters to gankers and griefers.

Personally, what I think the devs should do is have a switch you set as you enter the DZ. That switch would let you either participate in the PvP aspect of the DZ or make you completely immune to the PvP aspect, you can't shoot another agent or steal from them and you can't get shot or be stolen from.

Either that or make it so that if a rogue agent is killed while rogue, they lose all their gear and the character gets permanently deleted. As it is now, there's absolutely no penalty for being a ******bag in the DZ.

Personally, I don't like being fodder for the PvP players because the game has locked some PvE content behind the griefer's paradise that is the DZ so like I said, if they're going to put exclusive drops in the DZ, make those drops be usable ONLY in the DZ. Or just get rid of the PvP Dark Zones all together and make the PvE and then they could do some truly fun and interesting things with them.

Currently, the Pestilence is the only exclusive DZ drop, and it has its uses outside of it in the LZ. if you know where to look. But, this is a conversation about incentives. The Eagle Bearer is a PVE only drop, but it's currently the top dog in PVP. Do you believe that justifies the DZ to get more exclusive gear and items that have uses outside of it?

DarkKnight27us
08-05-2019, 11:50 PM
Currently, the Pestilence is the only exclusive DZ drop, and it has its uses outside of it in the LZ. if you know where to look. But, this is a conversation about incentives. The Eagle Bearer is a PVE only drop, but it's currently the top dog in PVP. Do you believe that justifies the DZ to get more exclusive gear and items that have uses outside of it?

No, there should not be any exclusive gear that drops in the PvP DZ ever. People shouldn't be made to be subjected to the kinds of trolls and griefer's that populate the DZ just to get an item to use in the real game. If the DZ was turned into a more dangerous PvE area, then sure. But forcing people to play PvP to try and get a good PvE drop that they won't actually be able to get because of some ******bag PvP player who steals their loot is not a way to keep players engaged in the game. All it does is create a schism between the players and foster a toxic environment.

If people want to play PvP games there are much better games out there that focus on that aspect of the game. Not every game is built for PvP and TD2 certainly doesn't. Especially not the way it's been implemented which, like I said above, fosters a toxic environment and encouraged toxic game play.

MutantCowboy x
08-06-2019, 12:06 AM
I don't have either pest or eagle, and I could not care any less. Does it matter that they are in the game to me, not really. Locking gear behind content is a targeted choice the developers made and it is the correct one. More items should be exclusive regardless of the people who refuse to play a part of the game. Nobody is special because they can't do something. nobody is right because they feel forced to earn loot in a loot driven game. If you have issues with that see a psychiatrist. If anything the only people who could actually make a case for PVP specific gear are PVP players because they are the ones actually going head to head. Using your new pompoms to cheer on the team in expedition mode does not create a need for the PVE only player. Having the DZ vendors in D1 was great and the unique blueprints were a cool goal that kept griefing low to avoid losing all your ranks. PVP players have as much right as anyone else to have unique rewards tied to the activities they prefer. Other than that the argument is just selfish PVE BS. I personally play all content so I have no compassion for any fake agent who only does one.

DarkKnight27us
08-06-2019, 12:24 AM
Having the DZ vendors in D1 was great and the unique blueprints were a cool goal that kept griefing low to avoid losing all your ranks. PVP players have as much right as anyone else to have unique rewards tied to the activities they prefer. Other than that the argument is just selfish PVE BS. I personally play all content so I have no compassion for any fake agent who only does one.

Oh this is just complete and total ********. The griefer's went out of their way to make sure people couldn't get those higher ranks so they couldn't get the cool blueprints.

Back in the early days of the DZ the griefer's would kill you and then deconstruct all your gear right in front of you.

If PvP players want exclusive gear, fine, but don't award it for killing PvE players. Make it something they can get from playing Conflict. But rewarding players for griefing other players is only going to continue to deepen the divide in the player base and foster an even more toxic gaming environment.

If the point of PvP is really about testing yourself against other PvP players, why don't you fight for a rotation PvE only DZ that has all the same chances for rewards like Yaahl gear and Pestilence but removes all PvP from the zone?

Because in this game, there are only two reasons to PvP, and they are mutually exclusive. 1) You want the challenge of PvP so you don't want PvE players there because they're not going to be a challenge for your, or 2) You're there to grief the PvE player that wants NOTHING to do with PvP and just want to clear landmarks and farm some gear because they're easy targets and can't actually fight back. You're in one camp or the other.

MutantCowboy x
08-06-2019, 12:47 AM
You make better points here than just saying no it should never happen. Which I do support a more general PVP loot drop.... playing skirmish is in fact one of the least rewarding activities in the game it is factually 1 item every 15 minutes if you can get into a match that quick....

I have seen many players who say they are there to farm and do landmarks as a four man group only to kill any other player who enters the landmark and loot them. The zone is lawless by design and that is what made it interesting in D1 if you don't like it, it is not a reason to limit those who do. Just like everyone who screams about the EB, not everything in the game is about you. Do the raid and get it or just forget it exists. Who cares what a persons reason is for playing a zone if it makes someone play the game and have fun let them have it. We are not mind cops. If they get off by killing farmers so what. The farmers willing to enter the DZ and who understand the risk are part of the game too. They can make their own choices as to how they spend their time.

I do not like the term DZ being tied to PVE areas because that is not the intention of the DZ. However I do support the idea of a zone that caters to the crowd looking to do public event type activities. Having things like unique boss fights, moving vehicles, or attack choppers could all be really fun. I just think that, again, it should have its own unique items tied to it. Why not have tons of cool things spead all over the game? More interest in diverse content is much better than a dying game.

DarkKnight27us
08-06-2019, 01:16 AM
I have seen many players who say they are there to farm and do landmarks as a four man group only to kill any other player who enters the landmark and loot them. The zone is lawless by design and that is what made it interesting in D1 if you don't like it, it is not a reason to limit those who do. Just like everyone who screams about the EB, not everything in the game is about you. Do the raid and get it or just forget it exists. Who cares what a persons reason is for playing a zone if it makes someone play the game and have fun let them have it. We are not mind cops. If they get off by killing farmers so what. The farmers willing to enter the DZ and who understand the risk are part of the game too. They can make their own choices as to how they spend their time.

But here's the difference, if you want the EB, you join a raid group and you do the raid. Everyone is on the same page and generally has the same goal (the the raid done).

But the goals of people in the DZ are not the same one group is there to farm gear and explore and see the sights and do landmarks. The other group is there only to PvP. They don't care about loot or anything, they just want to kill other PC's and that's it. They'll camp entrances and extraction zones and even landmarks to do it. They have fun by denying others the ability to have fun. You can hide behind the "it's a lawless place" excuse all you want but bottom line, this is a video game and it's supposed to be fun for people. A lot of people don't have fun being folder for the PvP'ers out there or being told that if they want to access this piece of content they'll have to put up with griefers and gankers.

The easy solution is to create a rotation PvE only DZ. It's a win/win for everyone but the griefers and toxic players.


I do not like the term DZ being tied to PVE areas because that is not the intention of the DZ. However I do support the idea of a zone that caters to the crowd looking to do public event type activities. Having things like unique boss fights, moving vehicles, or attack choppers could all be really fun. I just think that, again, it should have its own unique items tied to it. Why not have tons of cool things spead all over the game? More interest in diverse content is much better than a dying game.

Personally, I think the DZ's would be perfect PvE public event areas. Like I said, they could be used in such a way that if the public event isn't completed it actually affects the rest of the game world so it would encourage people to participate in the event. You could even have it so that if a zone gets hot with a public event all PvP is instantly turned off as there's now a much bigger threat to deal with and all NPC's run away because they can't deal with it, or join up with it to attack with the bigger threat.

One last thing I want to bring up as a difference between a PvP player and a PvE player, the PvP player, currently, has full access to the entire game and isn't being denied access to any part of the game, meanwhile PvE players like myself are actively being denied access to the DZ because we don't feel like dealing with the toxicity of the players who hunt other players there. There is a fundamental imbalance in the system that favors PvP players over PvE'ers.

xcel30
08-06-2019, 01:38 AM
I think part of the issue of the DZ is that a player with a PVP build will be in advantage over everyone else unless everyone else is also a PVP build, and even then we have the issue of people trying to get the most advantage possible which kinda further cements DZ being a stale place for PVP in terms of build, causing mirror matches that anyone dumb enough to not use it when in there just gets massacreded and have a bad time.

Visualsun
08-06-2019, 02:26 AM
One last thing I want to bring up as a difference between a PvP player and a PvE player, the PvP player, currently, has full access to the entire game and isn't being denied access to any part of the game, meanwhile PvE players like myself are actively being denied access to the DZ because we don't feel like dealing with the toxicity of the players who hunt other players there. There is a fundamental imbalance in the system that favors PvP players over PvE'ers.

What about PvP players that don't want to do the raid to get EB? Because those exist

III_Hammer_III
08-06-2019, 02:32 AM
A state in which an enemy suddenly becomes immune to damage, no matter the source. Once an enemy is in this state, our only option is to avoid the enemy until the buff is gone. But, why not make this an opportunity of teamwork, that calls for the flip flop of roles? When an enemy is in this state, they become immune to all damage. Instead, allow skills to still damage an enemy when they are in this state. With this, you've created this opportunity of a skill build to play a bigger part in the fight. Here's why.
The idea of immunity is, well, immunity, but anyway, I'd rather see that pointless mechanic removed. TD2 is not WoW. (I've never palyed WoW, it just sounds like a WoW mechanic :) ).

I'd rather see a return to TD1 mechanics like the ones you mentioned. My dislike of the immunity mechanic notwithstanding, I'd rather see something like a pulse variant that would remove the immunity from the boss...




To add more depth to the RPG, Division 2 could introduce "skill" trees for each of the main attributes.
We have enough useless attributes as it is. I'd rather see all the useless attributes be of some use before even more stuff is introduced which, given that the bases for them are practically useless, would make the skill trees useless as well. Instead of trees, some of the current attributes could be changed to be group attributes: "if sole it does this, if in group it does this and this"... something like that.




RNG


Remove gear scores and the "stat balance" rolls attached to them. But, since parts of the game are tied up to leveling, instead, make World Tier scores. Kind of like TD1, really.
WT score N+1 will always have better stats than WT score N. So, for example, armor in a piece of gear in WT1 is 1K-2K, WT2 2001-3K, WT3 3001-4K, and so forth.
Players can start collecting WT N+1 gear in WT N, but this gear can only have up to half the stats it would have if collected in WT N+1
And OPTIMIZATION STATION!

III_Hammer_III
08-06-2019, 02:55 AM
But here's the difference, if you want the EB, you join a raid group and you do the raid. Everyone is on the same page and generally has the same goal (the the raid done).

But the goals of people in the DZ are not the same one group is there to farm gear and explore and see the sights and do landmarks. The other group is there only to PvP. .

As it was my response in TD1, the DZ is the area where players can shoot at each other. That's it. Don't rationalize it any further. If you don't want to shoot at other players and don't want players shooting at you, don't go in there.

You can farm gear to your heart's contempt in the huge LZ. There isn't any content in the DZ that isn't in the LZ (other than pestilence, but pestilence, unlike the EB, is pretty much a collector's item) let alone better content. The maps themselves are nothing special, they use the same assets as the LZ assets.

Shipp71
08-06-2019, 05:33 AM
Thank you for that detailed post. EVERY point you hit on needs attention by the devs. I am a big fan of having specific factions dropping certain gear brands or all brands of certain gear slots. For example, Hyena drop all brands of Masks and backpacks and so forth. I also think one way to help out with gear score being definitive of the quality of an item(actually mattering) is that Gear Score determines what range of stats can be on an item. Gear Score 500 items can't have the full range of a stat on it, only the upper 50% of the full range. Armor needs removed from the total stat weight of an item, armor should have it's own table. Gear quality took a severe nose dive when the devs buffed the amount of armor on every item. Think about it. The armor change automatically ate up a large portion of the stat weight available to each item.

I think that weapons need an overhaul as well. Too many useless weapons in the game. We can't increase the amount of ammo we can carry like in Div 1, AHEM! Clue for another change on gear that would be nice! Since your AR ammo count is limited to 810, you are confined to that total amount of damage that can done in a raid fight or other boss fight. Water pistol based damage ( Carbine 7) will simply delete your ammo pool before you can kill raid boss or other high level enemies. I don't think the magazine size should be a factor in a weapon's damage per shot stat.

Ubi please take note on posts such as this one. A well informed and civil discussion is going to help you fix this game and give it the 2 or 3 year life it deserves. I am still blown away by how beautiful this game is. We the player base see the potential in the Div 2 and the love for the game is real.

DarkKnight27us
08-06-2019, 07:48 AM
What about PvP players that don't want to do the raid to get EB? Because those exist

There's a difference between someone not wanting to do the raid and someone who gets killed repeatedly by a troll in the DZ because they just can't compete. There's no fun, and no sport, in just repeatedly ganking someone who either can't or won't compete, but the 100% of the PvP players I've ever encountered do exactly that.

DarkKnight27us
08-06-2019, 07:53 AM
As it was my response in TD1, the DZ is the area where players can shoot at each other. That's it. Don't rationalize it any further. If you don't want to shoot at other players and don't want players shooting at you, don't go in there.

You can farm gear to your heart's contempt in the huge LZ. There isn't any content in the DZ that isn't in the LZ (other than pestilence, but pestilence, unlike the EB, is pretty much a collector's item) let alone better content. The maps themselves are nothing special, they use the same assets as the LZ assets.

That's all well and good, but in TD1 you actually had to go into the DZ to get the best weapons and mods and blueprints. The design of the game gave you no choice. So you could either be extremely underpowered and undergeared or you could slog your way through the DZ, putting up with the griefers who would kill you and deconstruct all your stuff just to upset you and they would do it over and over and over again, because they could. Or you could do what I did and just stop playing the game all together because there's no fun being punished for not being good at PvP in a PvE game.

If the DZ's were truly just about players shooting other players... remove all loot from the zone. Make it so it's just an open free for all with no loot and no PvE players to gang up on and gank.

RushLoongHammer
08-06-2019, 01:11 PM
Nailed it again!

Merphee
08-06-2019, 02:08 PM
No, there should not be any exclusive gear that drops in the PvP DZ ever. People shouldn't be made to be subjected to the kinds of trolls and griefer's that populate the DZ just to get an item to use in the real game. If the DZ was turned into a more dangerous PvE area, then sure. But forcing people to play PvP to try and get a good PvE drop that they won't actually be able to get because of some ******bag PvP player who steals their loot is not a way to keep players engaged in the game. All it does is create a schism between the players and foster a toxic environment.

If people want to play PvP games there are much better games out there that focus on that aspect of the game. Not every game is built for PvP and TD2 certainly doesn't. Especially not the way it's been implemented which, like I said above, fosters a toxic environment and encouraged toxic game play.


I don't have either pest or eagle, and I could not care any less. Does it matter that they are in the game to me, not really. Locking gear behind content is a targeted choice the developers made and it is the correct one. More items should be exclusive regardless of the people who refuse to play a part of the game. Nobody is special because they can't do something. nobody is right because they feel forced to earn loot in a loot driven game. If you have issues with that see a psychiatrist. If anything the only people who could actually make a case for PVP specific gear are PVP players because they are the ones actually going head to head. Using your new pompoms to cheer on the team in expedition mode does not create a need for the PVE only player. Having the DZ vendors in D1 was great and the unique blueprints were a cool goal that kept griefing low to avoid losing all your ranks. PVP players have as much right as anyone else to have unique rewards tied to the activities they prefer. Other than that the argument is just selfish PVE BS. I personally play all content so I have no compassion for any fake agent who only does one.

I agree with Cowboy here. If the devs decide to have that exclusivity in places, you will have those that put in the dedication to tackle such things to receive the rewards, and as such, they are the ones that would know how to balance or make suggestions that support that decision of the devs.


The idea of immunity is, well, immunity, but anyway, I'd rather see that pointless mechanic removed. TD2 is not WoW. (I've never palyed WoW, it just sounds like a WoW mechanic :) ).

I'd rather see a return to TD1 mechanics like the ones you mentioned. My dislike of the immunity mechanic notwithstanding, I'd rather see something like a pulse variant that would remove the immunity from the boss...



We have enough useless attributes as it is. I'd rather see all the useless attributes be of some use before even more stuff is introduced which, given that the bases for them are practically useless, would make the skill trees useless as well. Instead of trees, some of the current attributes could be changed to be group attributes: "if sole it does this, if in group it does this and this"... something like that.





Remove gear scores and the "stat balance" rolls attached to them. But, since parts of the game are tied up to leveling, instead, make World Tier scores. Kind of like TD1, really.
WT score N+1 will always have better stats than WT score N. So, for example, armor in a piece of gear in WT1 is 1K-2K, WT2 2001-3K, WT3 3001-4K, and so forth.
Players can start collecting WT N+1 gear in WT N, but this gear can only have up to half the stats it would have if collected in WT N+1
And OPTIMIZATION STATION!


Yeah, when I saw I first saw the immunity mechanic, it was questionable, and it still is. How does an enemy with no visual armor suddenly become immune to bullets? But my suggestion was made simply because the continuity or logic with it was already broken to begin with. So at least changing it so that it can be overcome with team work wouldn't make that mechanic so strange in a game like this.

The attribute skill tree would simply be an extra avenue towards better RPG. A lot of the current and most used talents are the ones that are "general" - do this, get more damage. If they really want to up the RPG, they'll have to do something like this. Emphasizing group could work, but then that's a conversation about content.

Optimization station, that comes down to density and large stat gaps. You revamp density and shrink those gaps, you won't need the optimization station.


Thank you for that detailed post. EVERY point you hit on needs attention by the devs. I am a big fan of having specific factions dropping certain gear brands or all brands of certain gear slots. For example, Hyena drop all brands of Masks and backpacks and so forth. I also think one way to help out with gear score being definitive of the quality of an item(actually mattering) is that Gear Score determines what range of stats can be on an item. Gear Score 500 items can't have the full range of a stat on it, only the upper 50% of the full range. Armor needs removed from the total stat weight of an item, armor should have it's own table. Gear quality took a severe nose dive when the devs buffed the amount of armor on every item. Think about it. The armor change automatically ate up a large portion of the stat weight available to each item.

I think that weapons need an overhaul as well. Too many useless weapons in the game. We can't increase the amount of ammo we can carry like in Div 1, AHEM! Clue for another change on gear that would be nice! Since your AR ammo count is limited to 810, you are confined to that total amount of damage that can done in a raid fight or other boss fight. Water pistol based damage ( Carbine 7) will simply delete your ammo pool before you can kill raid boss or other high level enemies. I don't think the magazine size should be a factor in a weapon's damage per shot stat.

Ubi please take note on posts such as this one. A well informed and civil discussion is going to help you fix this game and give it the 2 or 3 year life it deserves. I am still blown away by how beautiful this game is. We the player base see the potential in the Div 2 and the love for the game is real.

Weapons variants are like gear variants, one may come with an extra or different mod slot. The AK-M and the Black Market / Military AK-M differs because the latter two both come with muzzle slots. Why not just have one AK that has the muzzle slot available? Because if the difference between the AK-M and the other AKs aren't that noticeable on the weapon handling side, what's the point? The ones with the muzzle slot would be the superior ones anyway!

Removing weapon variants removes fodder from the loot pool and opens up the possibility for newer weapons to take those places.

I can understand having an SMG AUG and an AR AUG, but that's because they are two different weapon types.


There's a difference between someone not wanting to do the raid and someone who gets killed repeatedly by a troll in the DZ because they just can't compete. There's no fun, and no sport, in just repeatedly ganking someone who either can't or won't compete, but the 100% of the PvP players I've ever encountered do exactly that.

But because you walk into a PVPVE area, you have to be prepared for the PVP side of it, even if you go in there to PVE, and even if the PVP is a 1% chance. That's just the nature of the place. If you do not walk into it prepared, you will have a bad time. Seeing red whenever the DZ comes up in a conversation is not a healthy way for it to improve on what it is built upon.

Personally, as a solo player, 1 v 4 is not fun to me. But that doesn't mean that I don't like PVP. Accommodating the DZ to allow solo players to still have a fighting chance doesn't really thwart what the DZ is meant out to be, imo.

DemizeFPS
08-06-2019, 04:01 PM
Inventory Management

There are three things that I would like to bring forth about Inventory:

Sharing items on the spot
Sending open world drops straight to stash
Comparing open world drops to items in our stashes

We need more inventory space and UI improvements to help us manage our inventory. We shouldn't have to look at a spreadsheet from online to know the quality of our loot. The game should tell us the stat ranges on gear. In TD1 Update 1.8, There were changes made to gear score on gear and gear score was an indicator of how powerful a piece of gear is at the current power levels. The gear score (between 256 and 293) reflected the level of quality of that particular piece of gear. In short, the more min/maxed your gear is, the closer to 286 for weapon and 293 for classified gear, that piece of gear will be; with a max score of 291 for a complete min/maxed build. The Gear score system in TD2 needs rework. Gear score should be an indicator of how powerful a piece of gear is at the current power levels. Loot drops should indicate when it's upgraded just like in TD1 where it had green bars next to gear score to show it was an upgrade to your current loadout or red bars when it was a downgrade to current loadout. We need indication on the spot. We shouldn't have to stand in one place, open up a spreadsheet, and look at the stats to decide to keep the loot or leave it behind. I usually just pick the item if I have space and manage it after the activity is over. I usually spend 30mins to 1hr managing my inventory after playing an activity. We spend way too much time managing our inventory. Waiting on teammates or teammates waiting on me. It's a hassle. The fact that we still have to log out and log back in on different characters to move items around in our inventories to make space in our stashbox/inventory because there is no companion app is outrageous for a sequel.

Dear Developers,
If you are serious about improving the player experience in regards to inventory management, release a public development API for the community and a companion app. There are at least 5 different studios that worked on TD2, set aside a small team to develop a public API and a companion app. You have the manpower, resources, and capital to make it happen. Sure, it might delay future content, but it needs to happen. A companion app will help manage our inventories through downtime while loading between activities. As a community, we need to push for this.

Bungie is an independent studio with fewer resources and manpower than Ubisoft. Bungie is able to have a public development API and a companion app for Destiny 1 and Destiny 2. It's a quality of life changer. The access to the API has bought so many assets for discord and streaming for the destiny community. I can click on destiny streamer's destiny widget on his or her channel to see his or her current loadout. Imagine if we have the same features for the division community. Most of us use discord and imagine the bots we can use to get real-time information on gear, stock resets, LFG, etc.

Merphee
08-06-2019, 04:19 PM
We need more inventory space and UI improvements to help us manage our inventory. We shouldn't have to look at a spreadsheet from online to know the quality of our loot. The game should tell us the stat ranges on gear. In TD1 Update 1.8, There were changes made to gear score on gear and gear score was an indicator of how powerful a piece of gear is at the current power levels. The gear score (between 256 and 293) reflected the level of quality of that particular piece of gear. In short, the more min/maxed your gear is, the closer to 286 for weapon and 293 for classified gear, that piece of gear will be; with a max score of 291 for a complete min/maxed build. The Gear score system in TD2 needs rework. Gear score should be an indicator of how powerful a piece of gear is at the current power levels. Loot drops should indicate when it's upgraded just like in TD1 where it green bars next to gear score to show it was an upgrade to your current loadout or red bars when it was a downgrade to current loadout. We need indication on the spot. We shouldn't have to stand in one place, open up a spreadsheet, and look at the stats to decide to keep the loot or leave it behind. I usually just pick the item if I have space and manage it after the activity is over. I usually spend 30mins to 1hr managing my inventory after playing an activity. We spend way too much time managing our inventory. Waiting on teammates or teammates waiting on me. It's a hassle. The fact that we still have to log out and log back in on different characters to move items around in our inventories to make space in our stashbox/inventory because there is no companion app is outrageous for a sequel.

Dear Developers,
If you are serious about improving the player experience in regards to inventory management, release a public development API for the community and a companion app. There are at least 5 different studios that worked on TD2, set aside a small team to develop a public API and a companion app. You have the manpower, resources, and capital to make it happen. Sure, it might delay future content, but it needs to happen. A companion app will help manage our inventories through downtime while loading between activities. As a community, we need to push for this.

Bungie is an independent studio with fewer resources and manpower than Ubisoft. Bungie is able to have a public development API and a companion app for Destiny 1 and Destiny 2. It's a quality of life changer. The access to the API has bought so many assets for discord and streaming for the destiny community. I can click on destiny streamer's destiny widget on his or her channel to see his or her current loadout. Imagine if we have the same features for the division community. Most of us use discord and imagine the bots we can use to get real-time information on gear, stock resets, LFG, etc.

Yeah, that's the perception of gear score. Players really think that 500 gear is good gear because it's a number higher than something that's 490 or 480 for example, when really, 500 means nothing (except for exotics currently). Values ranges on stats and density has to change before 500 is truly indicative of quality.

DarkKnight27us
08-06-2019, 04:43 PM
But because you walk into a PVPVE area, you have to be prepared for the PVP side of it, even if you go in there to PVE, and even if the PVP is a 1% chance. That's just the nature of the place. If you do not walk into it prepared, you will have a bad time. Seeing red whenever the DZ comes up in a conversation is not a healthy way for it to improve on what it is built upon.

Personally, as a solo player, 1 v 4 is not fun to me. But that doesn't mean that I don't like PVP. Accommodating the DZ to allow solo players to still have a fighting chance doesn't really thwart what the DZ is meant out to be, imo.

I think you misunderstand me. I don't dislike PvP. I play a lot of PvP games, like Overwatch, Apex Legends, Mechwarrior Online, Battlefield, CS:GO, and others. But here's the difference... in those games people are going in for the exact same experience. They want to get into a game and get some kills, and help their team win and help the other team lose. It's simple.

In the Division though it's a whole different, toxic, beast. Most PvE players that go into the DZ are going in there to farm loot but the PvP players are in there to make sure that people can't farm loot and don't have any fun. Because in The Division (1 or 2) the DZ are set up so that in order for one type of player to have fun the other cannot have fun. So because of this, it creates a lot of friction between the different type of players and creates a toxic environment.

Now you and other's have said... well, just don't go into the DZ... well that would be fine if there was absolutely no reason to go in there. The game devs keep using things like exclusive drops, or as the plan was when they were going to release GS515 a while back, higher gear score items dropping in the DZ as a way to get people to go in there that otherwise don't want to participate in PvP. They're doing this because the vast majority of the game doesn't want to play PvP and absolutely hates the kinds of players that enjoy this game's style of PvP (where they get to grief other players and deny them the ability to have fun).

I still think the best solution for this game is to simply have a toggle as you log into a DZ that asks, "Do you want to participate in PvP" with a "yes" or "no" option. If you pick yes... you're put into the DZ as it is right now and you can run around and kill players and camp entrances and extractions zones to your hearts content. If you say no though... you get the exact same DZ (including loot drops) you would normally get in the PvP version of the DZ but PvP is turned completely off. Or of course you could remove all loot drops and PvE aspects from the DZ's so that they are just big PvP arenas. They the PvP players have a place to go that's all their own and there's absolutely no reason for a PvE player to go into one unless they want to participate in PvP.

I can already hear the choir of complaints now that it's "no longer the same level or risk vs reward" or "well now no one will play in the PvP DZ", etc. But my counter to that is this. You either are playing in the DZ for PvP or you're not. If there are really that many people who want to play in the DZ just for the PvP aspect of the game and they're looking for a really good PvP experience, this won't hurt them in any way, hell, it will actually give them a far better experience because they will only encounter like minded people. But if your goal in the DZ is to grief the PvE players and deny them their fun... well, too bad so sad. I guess you'll have to find a new game to grief people on.

All of this being said there are two additional reasons I think PvP should be removed from the DZ as well. First, the cheaters. There are people out there who have found ways to cheat that really do make the game unfun for everyone. They are the bane of any PvP game and if you removed the PvP from the DZ it would disincentive those players from being here and cheating and really trying to ruin other's fun. Second, game balance. As we've seen, it's apparently very hard to balance the primarily PvE aspect of the game with the PvP part of the game when it comes to gear and weapons. So removing PvP would make the game a lot easier to balance and develop for.

Merphee
08-06-2019, 05:43 PM
I think you misunderstand me. I don't dislike PvP. I play a lot of PvP games, like Overwatch, Apex Legends, Mechwarrior Online, Battlefield, CS:GO, and others. But here's the difference... in those games people are going in for the exact same experience. They want to get into a game and get some kills, and help their team win and help the other team lose. It's simple.

In the Division though it's a whole different, toxic, beast. Most PvE players that go into the DZ are going in there to farm loot but the PvP players are in there to make sure that people can't farm loot and don't have any fun. Because in The Division (1 or 2) the DZ are set up so that in order for one type of player to have fun the other cannot have fun. So because of this, it creates a lot of friction between the different type of players and creates a toxic environment.

Now you and other's have said... well, just don't go into the DZ... well that would be fine if there was absolutely no reason to go in there. The game devs keep using things like exclusive drops, or as the plan was when they were going to release GS515 a while back, higher gear score items dropping in the DZ as a way to get people to go in there that otherwise don't want to participate in PvP. They're doing this because the vast majority of the game doesn't want to play PvP and absolutely hates the kinds of players that enjoy this game's style of PvP (where they get to grief other players and deny them the ability to have fun).

I still think the best solution for this game is to simply have a toggle as you log into a DZ that asks, "Do you want to participate in PvP" with a "yes" or "no" option. If you pick yes... you're put into the DZ as it is right now and you can run around and kill players and camp entrances and extractions zones to your hearts content. If you say no though... you get the exact same DZ (including loot drops) you would normally get in the PvP version of the DZ but PvP is turned completely off. Or of course you could remove all loot drops and PvE aspects from the DZ's so that they are just big PvP arenas. They the PvP players have a place to go that's all their own and there's absolutely no reason for a PvE player to go into one unless they want to participate in PvP.

I can already hear the choir of complaints now that it's "no longer the same level or risk vs reward" or "well now no one will play in the PvP DZ", etc. But my counter to that is this. You either are playing in the DZ for PvP or you're not. If there are really that many people who want to play in the DZ just for the PvP aspect of the game and they're looking for a really good PvP experience, this won't hurt them in any way, hell, it will actually give them a far better experience because they will only encounter like minded people. But if your goal in the DZ is to grief the PvE players and deny them their fun... well, too bad so sad. I guess you'll have to find a new game to grief people on.

All of this being said there are two additional reasons I think PvP should be removed from the DZ as well. First, the cheaters. There are people out there who have found ways to cheat that really do make the game unfun for everyone. They are the bane of any PvP game and if you removed the PvP from the DZ it would disincentive those players from being here and cheating and really trying to ruin other's fun. Second, game balance. As we've seen, it's apparently very hard to balance the primarily PvE aspect of the game with the PvP part of the game when it comes to gear and weapons. So removing PvP would make the game a lot easier to balance and develop for.

You might hate what I am about to say, and frankly call it BS, but...

Griefing is still apart of the RPG.

That might be hard to swallow and sure, it's not fun on the receiving end, but it is still a legitimate action in regards to the game. You could adopt the mindset of a rogue player who does that. In addition, it's not to exclusive to rogues or PVPers, either. I could watch a player die in front of my eyes, not revive him, pick up his stuff, then delete it all. I could extract it if I wanted. I could do that all without toggling. That could be the role I adopt as an Shade agent.

Consider the social aspects of the DZ to the other games you've listed. The DZ is something you'd compare to other shared world survival games, like Xera, Scum, H1Z1 I presume. Errors show up when you try to compare the DZ to those games like Battlefield and Overwatch, because the social aspects, and game design in general, are radically different.

DemizeFPS
08-06-2019, 06:10 PM
Yeah, that's the perception of gear score. Players really think that 500 gear is good gear because it's a number higher than something that's 490 or 480 for example, when really, 500 means nothing (except for exotics currently). Values ranges on stats and density has to change before 500 is truly indicative of quality.

Gear score has to change alongside with value ranges and density to be indicative of quality. Otherwise, everyone will be min-max with 500 GS items. MassIve will be forced to increase the gear score again. That gear score increase could bring other issues. It needs a rework. How many world tiers the developers are going to add? Up to WT10? 20? TD1 World Tier capped at WT5 with GS256+. We are already at WT5 with TD2.

DarkKnight27us
08-06-2019, 06:24 PM
You might hate what I am about to say, and frankly call it BS, but...

Griefing is still apart of the RPG.

That might be hard to swallow and sure, it's not fun on the receiving end, but it is still a legitimate action in regards to the game. You could adopt the mindset of a rogue player who does that. In addition, it's not to exclusive to rogues or PVPers, either. I could watch a player die in front of my eyes, not revive him, pick up his stuff, then delete it all. I could extract it if I wanted. I could do that all without toggling. That could be the role I adopt as an Shade agent.

Consider the social aspects of the DZ to the other games you've listed. The DZ is something you'd compare to other shared world survival games, like Xera, Scum, H1Z1 I presume. Errors show up when you try to compare the DZ to those games like Battlefield and Overwatch, because the social aspects, and game design in general, are radically different.

I have never heard of Xera or Scum and I've never played H1Z1 (though I've seen it played and it's not my kind of game).

If The Division wants to base the game around griefers then they should be up front and honest about it. Making 90% of the game a team co-op game but then making this radical switch to a pro-griefing PvP game doesn't make for a good game.

It's especially bad since there's literally no consequences for the griefers. Maybe if the rogue players were locked out of the rest of the game so they could only exist in the DZ or if you they died while rogue all their gear was lost (even from the stash) and their character for deleted it would help balance out the game a bit.

But games should be fun for the people who play them. They should only be fun for half the people who play them. Think of it this way, if all the people who only want to play PvE and don't want anything to do with the PvP griefers left and never came back, how long do you think this game series would continue to exist?

But if this game went 100% PvE with the exception of Conflict, do you think this game would have more, or less players? Take the game Warframe for instance. It's a lot like The Division and they tried to have PvP for a while (it's still in the game but pretty much no one plays that mode) but the game is thriving and it's pretty much PvE only. Even Destiny and Destiny 2 that forced people into PvP to complete PvE quests or get PvE guns realized that catering to griefers was a bad idea and that the true star of the show was the PvE content.

The sooner that the Division devs figure this out, the better it will be for the health and longevity of the game.

Trep06
08-06-2019, 08:57 PM
I have a few comments on the original post by Merphee

RNG - Remove variants from the game & generalize mod slots

I agree with everything with this section with one addition. Remove the active/common talent distinction. As part of a pool of items you can recalibrate, allow the re-rolling of ANY talent you want.

RNG - Value Ranges

This paragraph:

“I've seen all of the "increase stash space" and "increase inventory" comments. I think this density system, in combination with the sheer amount of slots on gear attributed to RNG and sheer amount of gear variants is why we are over encumbered. We're holding onto gear with high rolls so that we may transfer them over to the "God rolled" item that we need, but yet never seem to find. Transferring stats over is a commitment because once you transfer or recalibrate a stat, the other attribute slots cannot be changed, and so:

1: You're waiting on that one God rolled item to drop that's
2: Covered in layers of RNG because of how many slots need to be "right" before you transfer that stat over.

The longer you wait for that God rolled item to drop, and it doesn't, the more space gets taken up by other items with bad rolls but with one good roll about them.”

I have repeatedly mentioned this (however perhaps not as eloquently as Merphee). I call this unusable gear. Gear sitting in my stash waiting to be used on a piece I’m grinding for.

I applied these two ideas to my current stash and mule inventories and reclaimed 65% of my space back:

1. Allow the ability to roll 2 items on a piece of gear. All items should be allowed (gear, talents, and mod slots)
2. Remove the Active/Common talent distinction. If the talent can be used on the gear piece then allow the ability to re-roll the talent

Loot Targeted Grinding

My first inclination is that all loot should drop everywhere. I say this because I loath the fact that people believe that certain loot (read better loot) should drop in certain activities. For those of us who don’t have hours to play I’m sure feel this way. If I only have time to hop on and run a couple of invaded missions before I have to go feed the baby, I should get rewarded for that time. I should not have to grind the DZ or play level 4 CPs just to better my build. Perhaps its like the challenging/heroic drops. You get more (all be it just one more....need a separate discussion on this) but it's still high end gear where you have a chance to better your build.

2 Questions To Consider

Question #1: “……Do you think having too many will allow one to reach a perfect build too fast?”

So what? Why does this matter? I truly do not understand what this fear is of getting to powerful too fast? There’s always a perfect build to grind for and feeling powerful is what makes this game fun. I put together a Tac build that allowed me to solo legendary missions in TD1. I was powerful and it was fun. Why can't we have this in TD2? What is this fear of being too powerful? Someone please explain this to me because I just don't understand.

Merphee
08-06-2019, 09:55 PM
I have never heard of Xera or Scum and I've never played H1Z1 (though I've seen it played and it's not my kind of game).

If The Division wants to base the game around griefers then they should be up front and honest about it. Making 90% of the game a team co-op game but then making this radical switch to a pro-griefing PvP game doesn't make for a good game.

It's especially bad since there's literally no consequences for the griefers. Maybe if the rogue players were locked out of the rest of the game so they could only exist in the DZ or if you they died while rogue all their gear was lost (even from the stash) and their character for deleted it would help balance out the game a bit.

But games should be fun for the people who play them. They should only be fun for half the people who play them. Think of it this way, if all the people who only want to play PvE and don't want anything to do with the PvP griefers left and never came back, how long do you think this game series would continue to exist?

But if this game went 100% PvE with the exception of Conflict, do you think this game would have more, or less players? Take the game Warframe for instance. It's a lot like The Division and they tried to have PvP for a while (it's still in the game but pretty much no one plays that mode) but the game is thriving and it's pretty much PvE only. Even Destiny and Destiny 2 that forced people into PvP to complete PvE quests or get PvE guns realized that catering to griefers was a bad idea and that the true star of the show was the PvE content.

The sooner that the Division devs figure this out, the better it will be for the health and longevity of the game.

Those games are essentially what the DZ is. Shared world shooter with loot that can be scavenged. Players can kill you and take your loot. All of it. You will respawn with nothing and have to go scavenge again. Good thing you only lose the loot that you find in the DZ instead of everything in your inventory.

Simply locking out rogues from the rest of the game isn't fair. I go rogue in the DZ sometimes, so I should just not be able to walk out of the DZ and have some peace from it in the LZ? :rolleyes:

PVE has had its due buff from the first game, and it continues to receive those buffs, but again, the DZ is still a part of game. It shouldn't be neglected because there are those who like it. Suggesting PVPVE activities for the DZ is just as fair as me suggesting those uses for settlement upgrades, or bringing back Incursions.

The DZ is a huge selling point of the game, especially the first game. Abandoning it is not the answer. Although it's not an original idea, the DZ is what set Division apart from other games. And to be honest, because Division has to stick to reality more than other games, other fantasy games will do PVE way better than what's currently in Division because of that. Borderlands 3 and Destiny 2's expansion are coming. Some may not find any use in comparing, but it's a thought to consider.


Gear score has to change alongside with value ranges and density to be indicative of quality. Otherwise, everyone will be min-max with 500 GS items. MassIve will be forced to increase the gear score again. That gear score increase could bring other issues. It needs a rework. How many world tiers the developers are going to add? Up to WT10? 20? TD1 World Tier capped at WT5 with GS256+. We are already at WT5 with TD2.

A "one can't work without the other" sort of thing. :)


I have a few comments on the original post by Merphee

RNG - Remove variants from the game & generalize mod slots

I agree with everything with this section with one addition. Remove the active/common talent distinction. As part of a pool of items you can recalibrate, allow the re-rolling of ANY talent you want.

RNG - Value Ranges

This paragraph:

“I've seen all of the "increase stash space" and "increase inventory" comments. I think this density system, in combination with the sheer amount of slots on gear attributed to RNG and sheer amount of gear variants is why we are over encumbered. We're holding onto gear with high rolls so that we may transfer them over to the "God rolled" item that we need, but yet never seem to find. Transferring stats over is a commitment because once you transfer or recalibrate a stat, the other attribute slots cannot be changed, and so:

1: You're waiting on that one God rolled item to drop that's
2: Covered in layers of RNG because of how many slots need to be "right" before you transfer that stat over.

The longer you wait for that God rolled item to drop, and it doesn't, the more space gets taken up by other items with bad rolls but with one good roll about them.”

I have repeatedly mentioned this (however perhaps not as eloquently as Merphee). I call this unusable gear. Gear sitting in my stash waiting to be used on a piece I’m grinding for.

I applied these two ideas to my current stash and mule inventories and reclaimed 65% of my space back:

1. Allow the ability to roll 2 items on a piece of gear. All items should be allowed (gear, talents, and mod slots)
2. Remove the Active/Common talent distinction. If the talent can be used on the gear piece then allow the ability to re-roll the talent

So many times have I wanted to be able to recalibrate an active talent for a common. Would do so in a heartbeat.


If I only have time to hop on and run a couple of invaded missions before I have to go feed the baby, I should get rewarded for that time.

But what counts as a "reward?"

If your goal is to better your build, even if your time is limited, wouldn't doing activities that only drop something you know you need be the reward you'd want? And, wouldn't doing those activities be the best method in obtaining those items? Things that you wouldn't need would be filtered out and that would save a lot of time.

Now of course, you wouldn't get that needed drop immediately, but you'd likely get it or something as close to it and is eligible for recalibration in a two hour window compared to doing any activity while everything drops everywhere.




So what? Why does this matter? I truly do not understand what this fear is of getting to powerful too fast? There’s always a perfect build to grind for and feeling powerful is what makes this game fun. I put together a Tac build that allowed me to solo legendary missions in TD1. I was powerful and it was fun. Why can't we have this in TD2? What is this fear of being too powerful? Someone please explain this to me because I just don't understand.

A content issue, I guess. The whole "it's not about the destination, it's about the journey" thing. Because once you achieve these perfect builds, what or where's the destination? Would there be any content available that still challenges that perfect build?

III_Hammer_III
08-06-2019, 10:22 PM
That's all well and good, but in TD1 you actually had to go into the DZ to get the best weapons and mods and blueprints.
Up until like 3 months into the game's life? Then everything was available anywhere.


Or you could do what I did and just stop playing the game all together because there's no fun being punished for not being good at PvP in a PvE game.
It's not a PvE game. It is not a PvP game. It is just a game that has this area (or areas in the case of TD2) where players can shoot at each other. And if you stopped playing altogether because you didn't want to get shot at when you entered the area you knew players can (and will) shoot at each other, well...


If the DZ's were truly just about players shooting other players... remove all loot from the zone.
Wait, what? Why? Why can't people who enjoy shooting at each other in a video game get loot? Talk about entitlement.

III_Hammer_III
08-06-2019, 10:31 PM
Optimization station, that comes down to density and large stat gaps. You revamp density and shrink those gaps, you won't need the optimization station.
BLASPHEMY!!! I need it. And don't fool yourself, you need it too. Now keep your eyes on the watch. You are getting sleepy.. you need the optimization station.


The attribute skill tree would simply be an extra avenue towards better RPG. A lot of the current and most used talents are the ones that are "general" - do this, get more damage. If they really want to up the RPG, they'll have to do something like this. Emphasizing group could work, but then that's a conversation about content.
I get what you are saying, I just don't think it'll work that well in this game. I guess as long as they are useful, and not necessary requirements for content completion... maybe it's me... I see a lot of talents/attributes I just shrug off because I have no use for them. Even the crit/crit chance combo, I don't use. I've always preferred straight damage in any game..

Visualsun
08-06-2019, 10:53 PM
I agree with everything with this section with one addition. Remove the active/common talent distinction. As part of a pool of items you can recalibrate, allow the re-rolling of ANY talent you want.



Gonna have to really think about this one because everyone will go after the Fenris Vest and we're going to see combinations that shouldn't be in the game - Bloodsucker + Unbreakable come to mind off the top of my head. Unstoppable Force + Berserk is another. Active / Passive distinctions were made to keep gear balanced and not go overboard.

elhefe_
08-06-2019, 10:57 PM
I doubt this will have any impact on the game itself.
We've had discussions like this before with tons of good ideas and they have been almost completely ignored.

I have no doubts that the direction the game is going is no accident and it is decided to be this way (as I refuse to believe that 'they have not been able to do any of the things we suggested"). What I can't figure out is WHY they do it.
WHO is their target?
WHAT are the gaining from all of this?

I won't say it keeps me up at night cause it doesn't but I definitely think about why the game went from an awesome launch, to the state it currently is at.

It's not difficult for them to grab (for example) the top 5 constructive posters on this forum and contact them and ask them for feedback, but real feedback like 1on1 conversations, and not simple polls.

I honestly don't know what to do.
This is the only game that I cared so much for, I was hoping to play it like crazy and I did at the beginning (at least crazy considering how little free time I have to play) and then updates started messing and I just lost interest because stuff kept changing and not in a good way.

I hope this game can change, I really do, and I'd be super happy (so would most of this community) if half of what the OP has written came to life.

DarkKnight27us
08-06-2019, 11:09 PM
Those games are essentially what the DZ is. Shared world shooter with loot that can be scavenged. Players can kill you and take your loot. All of it. You will respawn with nothing and have to go scavenge again. Good thing you only lose the loot that you find in the DZ instead of everything in your inventory.

Simply locking out rogues from the rest of the game isn't fair. I go rogue in the DZ sometimes, so I should just not be able to walk out of the DZ and have some peace from it in the LZ? :rolleyes:

PVE has had its due buff from the first game, and it continues to receive those buffs, but again, the DZ is still a part of game. It shouldn't be neglected because there are those who like it. Suggesting PVPVE activities for the DZ is just as fair as me suggesting those uses for settlement upgrades, or bringing back Incursions.

The DZ is a huge selling point of the game, especially the first game. Abandoning it is not the answer. Although it's not an original idea, the DZ is what set Division apart from other games. And to be honest, because Division has to stick to reality more than other games, other fantasy games will do PVE way better than what's currently in Division because of that. Borderlands 3 and Destiny 2's expansion are coming. Some may not find any use in comparing, but it's a thought to consider.

True, it was a selling point of the first game... that quickly became a major point of contention amongst the player base. It has lead to toxicity and a lot of negativity toward this game series in general. Also, creating a game that caters to toxic players should not EVER be the goal of a game company.

An easy solution would be to add a PvE only DZ. One that rotates like the ODZ does. It would not have to be normalized and it could still have all the same loot you get from the DZ without having to put up with toxic PvP players. And it would improve the quality of the PvP zones as well since the PvE players wouldn't need to go in to them.

Tell me, why is this a bad idea? Are you so afraid that people hate PvP so much that you're not even willing to entertain the idea that this might improve the game and get rid of the toxicity that the current and previous implementations of the DZ has caused?

Also, what does a game being more or less fantasy based have to do with anything regarding how good the PvE part of the game will be? You're going to have to explain that one to me.

Finally, about the section I bolded out above. If you go rogue from opening a chest, that's one thing, if you go rogue from killing another agent then yes, your character should be banned from the rest of the game as a consequence for going rogue, and not just playing in the LZ but sharing gear to or from the LZ as well. The character should be completely cut off and locked away to the DZ. Right now there is literally no consequence for going rogue and it's a HUGE problem/oversight in my opinion. Right now, if I wanted to go into the DZ to farm, I'm talking on 100% of the risk for very little to no rewards. The rogue players take almost 0% of the risk for almost 100% of the rewards. It's a fundamental flaw in the game and one that should be corrected. As it is, I've been killed by rogues almost every time I've run into another person in the DZ (going back to TD1 days) and I have killed a grand total of zero rogues. But I'm supposed to enjoy being used as target practice by toxic PvP'ers who don't actually want a good PvP experience but just want to ruin other's fun or make sure they don't get to have fun.

Just make a rotating PvE only DZ of let people choose as they enter if they want to participate in PvP or not and if not, they're just completely immune to other player's damage and can't have their gear stolen at the extraction sites. It's a simple fix that will make all but the most toxic of players happy.

DarkKnight27us
08-06-2019, 11:14 PM
Wait, what? Why? Why can't people who enjoy shooting at each other in a video game get loot? Talk about entitlement.

But it's all about the PvP experience I though. That's what most of the PvP'ers say anyway. And the number of times I've been killed and my loot either wasn't taken or was deconstructed while I watched tells me that they don't need or want the loot anyway.

elhefe_
08-06-2019, 11:14 PM
True, it was a selling point of the first game... that quickly became a major point of contention amongst the player base. It has lead to toxicity and a lot of negativity toward this game series in general. Also, creating a game that caters to toxic players should not EVER be the goal of a game company.

An easy solution would be to add a PvE only DZ. One that rotates like the ODZ does. It would not have to be normalized and it could still have all the same loot you get from the DZ without having to put up with toxic PvP players. And it would improve the quality of the PvP zones as well since the PvE players wouldn't need to go in to them.

Tell me, why is this a bad idea? Are you so afraid that people hate PvP so much that you're not even willing to entertain the idea that this might improve the game and get rid of the toxicity that the current and previous implementations of the DZ has caused?

Also, what does a game being more or less fantasy based have to do with anything regarding how good the PvE part of the game will be? You're going to have to explain that one to me.

Finally, about the section I bolded out above. If you go rogue from opening a chest, that's one thing, if you go rogue from killing another agent then yes, your character should be banned from the rest of the game as a consequence for going rogue, and not just playing in the LZ but sharing gear to or from the LZ as well. The character should be completely cut off and locked away to the DZ. Right now there is literally no consequence for going rogue and it's a HUGE problem/oversight in my opinion. Right now, if I wanted to go into the DZ to farm, I'm talking on 100% of the risk for very little to no rewards. The rogue players take almost 0% of the risk for almost 100% of the rewards. It's a fundamental flaw in the game and one that should be corrected. As it is, I've been killed by rogues almost every time I've run into another person in the DZ (going back to TD1 days) and I have killed a grand total of zero rogues. But I'm supposed to enjoy being used as target practice by toxic PvP'ers who don't actually want a good PvP experience but just want to ruin other's fun or make sure they don't get to have fun.

Just make a rotating PvE only DZ of let people choose as they enter if they want to participate in PvP or not and if not, they're just completely immune to other player's damage and can't have their gear stolen at the extraction sites. It's a simple fix that will make all but the most toxic of players happy.

Can you elaborate what a PVE DZ would be? cause that basically sounds like open world to me :confused

DarkKnight27us
08-06-2019, 11:22 PM
Can you elaborate what a PVE DZ would be? cause that basically sounds like open world to me :confused

It could be as simple as the DZ as it is right now, just without any PvP in it at all. Or it could be a zone that has random open world events where anyone can "group" up to over come them and they require large groups of agents to take down effectively. But bottom line, it would be free of PvP and the toxicity that comes with it.

Riflemania
08-06-2019, 11:48 PM
I'm confused DarkKnight27us

PVP = Player versus Player
PVE = Player versus Enemy

Why should the DZ also have PVE when it is clearly a PVP area.

I mean, if i want to play against humans i will go to the DZ, if i don't want to play against humans i will go to the LZ.

Can't have both as it kinda defeats having a DZ.

DarkKnight27us
08-06-2019, 11:57 PM
I'm confused DarkKnight27us

PVP = Player versus Player
PVE = Player versus Enemy

Why should the DZ also have PVE when it is clearly a PVP area.

I mean, if i want to play against humans i will go to the DZ, if i don't want to play against humans i will go to the LZ.

Can't have both as it kinda defeats having a DZ.

Really, you don't say? I guess I've been using the PvP and PvE terms wrong this entire time. Let me look this up to be sure...

Well, you're mostly right, except PvE = Player versus Environment, not "enemy".

Oh, wait a minute though... I haven't been using them wrong at all!!

Look, the DZ is not a "PvP only zone" it's a "PvE zone that happens to allow PvP". When I and others go into the DZ, we're not looking to fight other players. We're looking to fight the tougher NPC's, explore and clear landmarks. And having a PvE DZ doesn't defeat the purpose of the DZ, it makes it available for people who don't want to deal with the toxicity that a lot of PvP'ers bring to the game.

I'll ask you the same question I ask all the PvP'ers, what harm will it do to you to have a rotating PvE DZ make the game worse for you? Isn't it a win/win for everyone? PvP players get to fight against other PvP players and PvE players get to clear landmarks, farm loot and explore the area without having to worry about some toxic griefer who's only out to ruin their fun.

Riflemania
08-07-2019, 12:03 AM
Really, you don't say? I guess I've been using the PvP and PvE terms wrong this entire time. Let me look this up to be sure...

Well, you're mostly right, except PvE = Player versus Environment, not "enemy".

Oh, wait a minute though... I haven't been using them wrong at all!!

Look, the DZ is not a "PvP only zone" it's a "PvE zone that happens to allow PvP". When I and others go into the DZ, we're not looking to fight other players. We're looking to fight the tougher NPC's, explore and clear landmarks. And having a PvE DZ doesn't defeat the purpose of the DZ, it makes it available for people who don't want to deal with the toxicity that a lot of PvP'ers bring to the game.

I'll ask you the same question I ask all the PvP'ers, what harm will it do to you to have a rotating PvE DZ make the game worse for you? Isn't it a win/win for everyone? PvP players get to fight against other PvP players and PvE players get to clear landmarks, farm loot and explore the area without having to worry about some toxic griefer who's only out to ruin their fun.

Maybe i worded it wrong but no need for the sarcasm.

Well your posts (and i am not aiming this at you) sounds like the old days of TD1 when people was asking for a PVEDZ....it didn't happen then and i don't think it will happen now.

I for one am against games that have both PVP and PVE as chances are something that is OP in PVP normally effects PVE with a nerf.......but it is what it is, i play PVE only as i hate PVP.

EDIT: Oh i hate PVP because i am crap at it;)

Riflemania
08-07-2019, 12:09 AM
Before i log and go to bed...........

If you are that passionate about your views of the DZ why not do your own seperate post on the forum with your ideas, it's kinda making this thread go off rails.

DarkKnight27us
08-07-2019, 12:19 AM
Maybe i worded it wrong but no need for the sarcasm.

Well your posts (and i am not aiming this at you) sounds like the old days of TD1 when people was asking for a PVEDZ....it didn't happen then and i don't think it will happen now.

I for one am against games that have both PVP and PVE as chances are something that is OP in PVP normally effects PVE with a nerf.......but it is what it is, i play PVE only as i hate PVP.

EDIT: Oh i hate PVP because i am crap at it;)

Your post came off as sarcastic so I responded in kind. If that wasn't the intent, I apologise.

I don't mind games that have both, but I really mind how this game implements it. If PvP have been Conflict only, I really wouldn't have cared as long as they didn't do the thing that Destiny does that forces you to play PvP.

But PvP mixed with PvE is typically an nightmare that creates toxicity between players and usually cost a game more than it benefits it.

As to why I don't start my own post… it's simple, I'm not as eloquent as Murphee and others are.

III_Hammer_III
08-07-2019, 01:51 AM
Can you elaborate what a PVE DZ would be? cause that basically sounds like open world to me :confused

Please, no.

If you want to know more about it, take a look at the TD1 forum. SO many discussions about that.

III_Hammer_III
08-07-2019, 02:02 AM
But it's all about the PvP experience I though. That's what most of the PvP'ers say anyway. And the number of times I've been killed and my loot either wasn't taken or was deconstructed while I watched tells me that they don't need or want the loot anyway.

It doesn't matter what's all about. It doesn't matter that you get killed and no one picks up your loot, maybe they thought it was trash, I don't know....

Yet again, what matters is, don't want to get shot at by other players? Don't enter the minimaps where you can get shot at. Period.

Other than a mediocre LMG, there is NOTHING there for you than you can't find in the LZ, where you can happily play in a huge map knowing no other player will shoot at you, where there are plenty of activities, many more different activities than the DZ, knowing there is NOTHING that you need that's in the DZ, and unless you feel you must have a pestilence, nothing that you really want.

Now, this topic has been rehashed over, and over, and over, and then some more, again. If you want to continue this, let's not hijack this thread. You can start your own if you want to...or even bring up one of the many, many others on this forum and the TD1 forum.

Merphee
08-07-2019, 04:22 AM
BLASPHEMY!!! I need it. And don't fool yourself, you need it too. Now keep your eyes on the watch. You are getting sleepy.. you need the optimization station.

<immune> :)


Gonna have to really think about this one because everyone will go after the Fenris Vest and we're going to see combinations that shouldn't be in the game - Bloodsucker + Unbreakable come to mind off the top of my head. Unstoppable Force + Berserk is another. Active / Passive distinctions were made to keep gear balanced and not go overboard.

Double Active talents would be crazy. I think they could still keep the active / common set up, but it wouldn't hurt being allowed to recalibrate an active talent for a common (and not the other way around), simply because some gear can already have two commons.


Tell me, why is this a bad idea? Are you so afraid that people hate PvP so much that you're not even willing to entertain the idea that this might improve the game and get rid of the toxicity that the current and previous implementations of the DZ has caused?

They've tried and banked on the alternatives, which I think was the better move considering the state of the LZ in Division 1. They buffed LZ to the point where it's a 1:1 of the DZ besides being public, implemented straight-to-inventory loot in the DZ outside of landmarks, then there's answering back up requests, and the newly implemented shepherding system.


Also, what does a game being more or less fantasy based have to do with anything regarding how good the PvE part of the game will be? You're going to have to explain that one to me.

Some things just have to be "Clancy", to quote a dev.


Finally, about the section I bolded out above. If you go rogue from opening a chest, that's one thing, if you go rogue from killing another agent then yes, your character should be banned from the rest of the game as a consequence for going rogue, and not just playing in the LZ but sharing gear to or from the LZ as well. The character should be completely cut off and locked away to the DZ. Right now there is literally no consequence for going rogue and it's a HUGE problem/oversight in my opinion. Right now, if I wanted to go into the DZ to farm, I'm talking on 100% of the risk for very little to no rewards. The rogue players take almost 0% of the risk for almost 100% of the rewards. It's a fundamental flaw in the game and one that should be corrected. As it is, I've been killed by rogues almost every time I've run into another person in the DZ (going back to TD1 days) and I have killed a grand total of zero rogues. But I'm supposed to enjoy being used as target practice by toxic PvP'ers who don't actually want a good PvP experience but just want to ruin other's fun or make sure they don't get to have fun.


Technically, you are banned from leaving the DZ... until your timer goes out or you die. Plus, that gameplay loop would get boring pretty quick. And then when new PVE stuff for the DZ gets suggested to freshen up the experience if rogues were hypothetically barred from leaving the DZ, well...

You can't call someone who simply plays the game in a way that is allowed toxic. You don't have to actively look for PVP, but at least defend yourself.



WHO is their target?


I think that's the biggest question.

MetaMatter
08-07-2019, 07:53 AM
[So, me getting this exact chest on drop is a 0.02% chance. I want to believe that my math is correct, dividing the item with the rolls that I want by the number of variables. If it's wrong, please correct me.

0.02% is only correct if you assume that all outcomes of RNG rolls have equal distribution. The code may add weight that makes certain outcomes more probable. So I doubt it's 1/10 chance of getting Yahl Gear...

Visualsun
08-07-2019, 08:28 AM
Double Active talents would be crazy. I think they could still keep the active / common set up, but it wouldn't hurt being allowed to recalibrate an active talent for a common (and not the other way around), simply because some gear can already have two commons.
.

With current end game (GS500) loot system, gear sets, changes to skills with TU5, and "meta" builds can already say the Heroic is quickly becoming the new Hard difficulty. With more changes to RNG and loot it has the possibility of becoming Normal or even Story.

Merphee
08-07-2019, 01:28 PM
0.02% is only correct if you assume that all outcomes of RNG rolls have equal distribution. The code may add weight that makes certain outcomes more probable. So I doubt it's 1/10 chance of getting Yahl Gear...

In the DZ it probably is, since that is the only place that Yaahl actually drops on the ground. There's a blueprint for the Yaahl chest, though.

You know, I'm starting to think that Murakami is weighted to drop with percentage defensive rolls more than any other brand. It's been happening quite often to a point where I don't think it's a coincidence.


With current end game (GS500) loot system, gear sets, changes to skills with TU5, and "meta" builds can already say the Heroic is quickly becoming the new Hard difficulty. With more changes to RNG and loot it has the possibility of becoming Normal or even Story.

There has to be content that still challenges OP builds. Incursions can be that content and I truly hope they consider bringing them back. And of course, designing future raids with mechanics that can't all be thwarted with DPS.

xcel30
08-07-2019, 01:42 PM
In terms of new mechanics for raids, if we take in consideration it's going to take place in a foundry, we are most likely have mechanics that deal with fire and heavy industrial machines, i hope they make better use of splitting teams up and forcing cooperation, such as one team will defend someone controlling a crane that will serve as cover for the other team while they push through an area, buttons that will raise and lower plataforms into fire. Because true sons don't have a thecnological excuse like black tusks for literall damage immunity

Merphee
08-07-2019, 02:58 PM
In terms of new mechanics for raids, if we take in consideration it's going to take place in a foundry, we are most likely have mechanics that deal with fire and heavy industrial machines, i hope they make better use of splitting teams up and forcing cooperation, such as one team will defend someone controlling a crane that will serve as cover for the other team while they push through an area, buttons that will raise and lower plataforms into fire. Because true sons don't have a thecnological excuse like black tusks for literall damage immunity

I can see riot foam playing a huge part in a true sons raid. They really only have that and military explosives.

Trep06
08-07-2019, 04:37 PM
Before i log and go to bed...........

If you are that passionate about your views of the DZ why not do your own seperate post on the forum with your ideas, it's kinda making this thread go off rails.

Thumbs up on this!

Trep06
08-07-2019, 04:49 PM
But what counts as a "reward?"

Thanks for your response. However, you said it. To better my build.




A content issue, I guess. The whole "it's not about the destination, it's about the journey" thing. Because once you achieve these perfect builds, what or where's the destination? Would there be any content available that still challenges that perfect build?

Perfection is in the eye of the agent. For those streamers and youtubers who are going to be off to another game anyway, you’re right. What or where’s the destination for them? For those of us who will still be here, do you ever reach the destination? There’s always a build to grind for. I played TD1 up to the night before TD2 came out. I had no problems matchmaking to play content so there are other like-minded individuals out there.

AirJarhead
08-07-2019, 05:05 PM
0.02% is only correct if you assume that all outcomes of RNG rolls have equal distribution. The code may add weight that makes certain outcomes more probable. So I doubt it's 1/10 chance of getting Yahl Gear...
I am 99.9% certain that RNG rolls do NOT have equal distribution. The RNG is HEAVILY weighted to give you things that are the least desired. I get 20x more sniper rifles and shotguns than ARs. Plus, if it was a pure RNG system, you would see 15% AWD on a chest just as much as you see 4%. However, in 1200+ hours of gameplay, I've seen thousands of 4% or lower, and I've NEVER had 15% or higher drop to me. That is PITIFUL.

Merphee
08-07-2019, 05:28 PM
I am 99.9% certain that RNG rolls do NOT have equal distribution. The RNG is HEAVILY weighted to give you things that are the least desired. I get 20x more sniper rifles and shotguns than ARs. Plus, if it was a pure RNG system, you would see 15% AWD on a chest just as much as you see 4%. However, in 1200+ hours of gameplay, I've seen thousands of 4% or lower, and I've NEVER had 15% or higher drop to me. That is PITIFUL.

Equal distribution is assuming that all attributes have the same percentage chance of actually taking the slot. Matter was right, as that was my (undocumented) assumption when I created the example. So, with the example of the Gila chest again:

Slot 1 - Health, Armor, Total Armor and Total Health all have a 100% chance to be the attribute that takes the slot. Which would mean that any of them can be what rolls there. If there isn't an equal distribution, where total armor and total health have a lower percentage of taking the attribute slot than flat health and flat armor, then that means that 0.02% would be even lower! And as I've replied, I totally believe that Murakami gear has a higher chance of dropping percentage defensive stats than flat increases.

Actual percentage values are a totally different thing, because of this whole density system. You are likely to get a 15% AWD roll on an Alps chest because it has less attribute slots. Which is where I got a 15% AWD roll and a 57,000 health roll.

Visualsun
08-07-2019, 09:24 PM
There has to be content that still challenges OP builds. Incursions can be that content and I truly hope they consider bringing them back. And of course, designing future raids with mechanics that can't all be thwarted with DPS.

That will be your next masterpiece once the rest of the community catches up to the current meta and builds. Can't wait ;)

Merphee
08-08-2019, 02:37 AM
That will be your next masterpiece once the rest of the community catches up to the current meta and builds. Can't wait ;)

I'm not a designer. If anything, I would say that I'm just a "creative consultant" :)

Technically, that's who we all are.

Merphee
08-10-2019, 12:19 AM
How do you guys feel about this:


End Game Progression - Settlement Upgrades

This has been on my mind well before WT5 was in the game. I wanted to see if anything would change with them after the WT5 update, but nothing did.

We've done this work to upgrade the settlements to improve the quality of the lives of the civilians, but when I walk up to these upgrades and see the people working, my thoughts are "Soooooo, you guys don't need anything? No extra meds? These kids wouldn't like any of these stuffed animals or toy cars I have in my backpack? Friend, you don't need any extra clean eating utensils for the folks? Hey, you guys over there at woodworking, you don't need extra hammers?"

If we are still "mid-crisis" like we were in Division 1, don't you think these people will constantly need supplies?

With all of these trinkets lying around, settlement upgrades can become a part of the end game progression loop, instead of just being aesthetics. Because then, what you worked to build becomes something you constantly visit to maintain. Like donating supplies to control point officers, donating trinkets to settlement upgrades can reward XP or reward specific items that we constantly use in the end game, like crafting material, brand set crafting materials, faction keys, and if more uses become available, division credits.

In terms of acquiring Hard Wired (and not the RNG involved), did you guys like this clear path towards this gear set?

I ask because what if settlement upgrades had available gear sets that could be acquired after you've collected specific trinkets or crafting materials? So with the pharmacy, imagine bringing someone in charge crafting materials, so that they could then create relevant gear or a gear set. Like a gear set or a "Pharmacy brand set" that was related to emphasizing a healer role.

Eval_Hell
08-10-2019, 12:26 PM
How do you guys feel about this:



In terms of acquiring Hard Wired (and not the RNG involved), did you guys like this clear path towards this gear set?

I ask because what if settlement upgrades had available gear sets that could be acquired after you've collected specific trinkets or crafting materials? So with the pharmacy, imagine bringing someone in charge crafting materials, so that they could then create relevant gear or a gear set. Like a gear set or a "Pharmacy brand set" that was related to emphasizing a healer role.

This is another great idea, but it’ll all fall on deaf ears I’m afraid and is just wishful thinking.

dagrommit
08-10-2019, 11:43 PM
I'm not a designer. If anything, I would say that I'm just a "creative consultant" :)

Technically, that's who we all are.

Just want to say your analysis is great, and I appreciate you putting so much thought into it. The section on the RNG insanity is spot on, and I like the idea about targeted grinding.

The bit on RPG Difficulty is also a good idea.

Merphee
08-11-2019, 02:10 AM
Just want to say your analysis is great, and I appreciate you putting so much thought into it. The section on the RNG insanity is spot on, and I like the idea about targeted grinding.

The bit on RPG Difficulty is also a good idea.

I thank you.

Ideally, the goal was to bring forth ideas and systems, and see if the community would like to see them implemented, that way the devs can gauge whether or not they would be ideas that only one or two players would like.

DemizeFPS
08-24-2019, 09:26 PM
I am not going to let this thread die. Let's continue this discussion.

I can't stress that we need a companion app for inventory management, clan management, and LFG.
It's ridiculous that we spend too much time managing our inventories and swapping between characters is a nuisance to make space. A companion app will save us time and the trouble of swapping characters.

How can we improve inventory management?

I for one would like to see gear mods become universal like weapon mods.

UI/UX improvements to share items and view items' stats. We need a spreadsheet in the game or something that tell us the range of a stat roll. The recalibration station should have a spreadsheet on it.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEm9ZgrVYAECCKs.jpg

Merphee
08-24-2019, 09:55 PM
I am not going to let this thread die. Let's continue this discussion.

I can't stress that we need a companion app for inventory management, clan management, and LFG.
It's ridiculous that we spend too much time managing our inventories and swapping between characters is a nuisance to make space. A companion app will save us time and the trouble of swapping characters.

How can we improve inventory management?

I for one would like to see gear mods become universal like weapon mods.

UI/UX improvements to share items and view items' stats. We need a spreadsheet in the game or something that tell us the range of a stat roll. The recalibration station should have a spreadsheet on it.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEm9ZgrVYAECCKs.jpg

:)

You know, it's funny that Division 1 had an entire app dedicated to a 5th player controlling a drone in real time, but yet, we can't get a simple app that allows us to manage our inventory in Division 2, but that's none of my business. :rolleyes:

But yeah, having those values indicated in-game would save a lot of time. Though, I don't think they could get everything from the spreadsheets in-game, like which slot can roll which type of attributes, based on which type of brand set. It'll just get messy. But, minimum and maximum value ranges like above would be time saving.

But maybe the lack of those values being shown in-game is done on purpose. Maybe excluding them was a way to emphasize "fun" over "being a game about numbers." idk. But it's something to think about. I can see how having no clear paths for upgrades, suffocating and unpredictable RNG, and gear score not reflecting quality would be fun for someone who just wants to hop on the game and play for a couple minutes.

Don't worry about those numbers, just have fun. :)

AproposBlock484
08-24-2019, 10:29 PM
Here is the definition of insanity. 1,112 hours played, 85,250 NPC's killed, 9,907 items looted and I haven't found a backpack with more than 6% awd or a chest piece with more than 10% awd. I've been looting 50-60 crates a day and trying for more than a month to put a raid build together without luck.I know one man's junk is another man's treasure but please quit giving me so much of other peoples treasures.Before the snide remarks about about the amount of my playtime, I'm retired and stuck at home receiving cancer treatments so I have plenty of time but the way things are gong with this RNG I may take up needle point or something instead.

AOD_Mr.Sand.Man
08-24-2019, 10:55 PM
Bump

Merphee
08-24-2019, 11:00 PM
Here is the definition of insanity. 1,112 hours played, 85,250 NPC's killed, 9,907 items looted and I haven't found a backpack with more than 6% awd or a chest piece with more than 10% awd. I've been looting 50-60 crates a day and trying for more than a month to put a raid build together without luck.I know one man's junk is another man's treasure but please quit giving me so much of other peoples treasures.Before the snide remarks about about the amount of my playtime, I'm retired and stuck at home receiving cancer treatments so I have plenty of time but the way things are gong with this RNG I may take up needle point or something instead.

I hear you. A journey I went on exposed the harshness of the RNG to me.

I wanted to make a 4-7-9 build, that way I have Safeguard, Unstoppable Force, and Reformation active. It came down to a point where I needed a specific variant of a brand set because that variant came with a specific mod slot. Those mod slots were the +1 I needed to have. I couldn't just leave it up to gear alone.

So when I got the brand set drop for the needed gear slot and it didn't come with the mod slot I needed, that's when the RNG started to expose itself. Because I could just simply add the mod manually and grab that +1 rather than waiting on RNG to determine something it doesn't need to, imo.

So those who are reading this, I challenge you to make a Safeguard, Unstoppable Force, and Reformation build. Just let me know when you're ready to quit the game. :)

RNG determining which attribute will drop in a slot, that's tolerable. A thrill of the chase.

RNG determining a mod slot is a hair pulling, annoying, unfun experience. An actual "I want to quit this game" experience.

DemizeFPS
08-24-2019, 11:47 PM
:)

You know, it's funny that Division 1 had an entire app dedicated to a 5th player controlling a drone in real time, but yet, we can't get a simple app that allows us to manage our inventory in Division 2, but that's none of my business. :rolleyes:

But yeah, having those values indicated in-game would save a lot of time. Though, I don't think they could get everything from the spreadsheets in-game, like which slot can roll which type of attributes, based on which type of brand set. It'll just get messy. But, minimum and maximum value ranges like above would be time saving.

But maybe the lack of those values being shown in-game is done on purpose. Maybe excluding them was a way to emphasize "fun" over "being a game about numbers." idk. But it's something to think about. I can see how having no clear paths for upgrades, suffocating and unpredictable RNG, and gear score not reflecting quality would be fun for someone who just wants to hop on the game and play for a couple minutes.

Don't worry about those numbers, just have fun. :)

Oh yea, I remember. :rolleyes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqzN7kGT_jg

I'm confident that they can use the framework of that app to build us a proper app.
They have resources, technology, knowledge, and manpower to do it.
It begs the question of why it is not on the plans.

I remember Terry said one time that it would delay content but I don't buy it. They can contract that work to contractors. I doubt it's money. The income from apparel caches and season passes would more than cover the cost of the development of a public API and a companion App.

Merphee
08-25-2019, 12:10 AM
Oh yea, I remember. :rolleyes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqzN7kGT_jg

I'm confident that they can use the framework of that app to build us a proper app.
They have resources, technology, knowledge, and manpower to do it.
It begs the question of why it is not on the plans.

I remember Terry said one time that it would delay content but I don't buy it. They can contract that work to contractors. I doubt it's money. The income from apparel caches and season passes would more than cover the cost of the development of a public API and a companion App.

Yeah, even if they don't outsource it, I'm sure there are passionate players of the community that would be more than willing to do it. We got that Division builder site and about three different full on spreadsheets, maybe even more.

DemizeFPS
08-27-2019, 05:42 PM
I may be done providing feedback for the game as I don’t feel that my feedback is listened to or acted on. I just feel we are not the targeted audience anymore.

LubzinNJ
08-27-2019, 05:46 PM
I may be done providing feedback for the game as I don’t feel that my feedback is listened to or acted on. I just feel we are not the targeted audience anymore.

Not sure how much control they had over the schedule, but announcing that the next update will be focused on fixing the things that the community is most concerned about, and that they're going to be taking our feedback and listening to it...and then immediately going on vacation for a month and kind of just disappearing.....not exactly good scheduling.

Merphee
08-27-2019, 06:44 PM
I may be done providing feedback for the game as I don't feel that my feedback is listened to or acted on. I just feel we are not the targeted audience anymore.

I've come to accept that potential fate as well. Only thing I can do then is respect their decisions, thank them for their time, right click, uninstall, and move on, you know? But at the same time, Division hasn't been a game I give up on easily.

Which is why I made this thread. I took advantage of a moment in time to try to change their minds. To try to convince them to make efforts to change the game for the better. But despite anyone's best efforts, It's all on the devs and what they decide to do.

dagrommit
08-27-2019, 07:31 PM
Not sure how much control they had over the schedule, but announcing that the next update will be focused on fixing the things that the community is most concerned about, and that they're going to be taking our feedback and listening to it...and then immediately going on vacation for a month and kind of just disappearing.....not exactly good scheduling.

I claim no knowledge about Massive specifically, but a couple of points:

- Europeans generally have far more vacation allowance than North Americans. I had six weeks, plus bank holidays.
- SOTG not running doesn't mean development stopped. We know Hamish and a few others have been streaming while SOTG was on hiatus, plus they needed to prepare for Gamescom
- They just finished a rollout of a large title update, that clearly had a lot of work put into it by multiple teams. Everyone deserves a bit of time off to recharge

Merphee
08-27-2019, 08:43 PM
I claim no knowledge about Massive specifically, but a couple of points:

- Europeans generally have far more vacation allowance than North Americans. I had six weeks, plus bank holidays.
- SOTG not running doesn't mean development stopped. We know Hamish and a few others have been streaming while SOTG was on hiatus, plus they needed to prepare for Gamescom
- They just finished a rollout of a large title update, that clearly had a lot of work put into it by multiple teams. Everyone deserves a bit of time off to recharge

AFAIK, only Hamish was at Gamescom, not the entire studio(s).

dagrommit
08-28-2019, 12:06 AM
AFAIK, only Hamish was at Gamescom, not the entire studio(s).

As I said, I claim no knowledge about Massive, and I should clarify that I realize Hamish is not a developer. The point is that some development is clearly continuing while SOTG is offline, as demonstrated by the patch that got rolled out last week.

LubzinNJ
08-28-2019, 01:16 AM
I claim no knowledge about Massive specifically, but a couple of points:

- Europeans generally have far more vacation allowance than North Americans. I had six weeks, plus bank holidays.
- SOTG not running doesn't mean development stopped. We know Hamish and a few others have been streaming while SOTG was on hiatus, plus they needed to prepare for Gamescom
- They just finished a rollout of a large title update, that clearly had a lot of work put into it by multiple teams. Everyone deserves a bit of time off to recharge

1. I don't care two iotas about your vacation schedule. You released a game as an active service game....service it. God bless the Europeans for somehow convincing the world August is vacation time, but not everyone wants August so really that is kind of a **** move by them.
2. The point is they are looking for feedback....feedback is inherently a give and take scenario. They're gone, there is no take....that is bad PR.
3. Yeah they deserve a break and that is good and all, but when you go in to a break and announce that the next update is all about community feedback and then go on vacation and don't feed back to the community that is a really...bad look. Which was my entire point.

Merphee
08-28-2019, 01:24 AM
1. I don't care two iotas about your vacation schedule. You released a game as an active service game....service it. God bless the Europeans for somehow convincing the world August is vacation time, but not everyone wants August so really that is kind of a **** move by them.
2. The point is they are looking for feedback....feedback is inherently a give and take scenario. They're gone, there is no take....that is bad PR.
3. Yeah they deserve a break and that is good and all, but when you go in to a break and announce that the next update is all about community feedback and then go on vacation and don't feed back to the community that is a really...bad look. Which was my entire point.

Vacation time should be over at this point, since it's the last week of August. This is based on when they said they wanted the SOTG to resume, so we might get one soon.

dagrommit
08-28-2019, 03:14 AM
1. I don't care two iotas about your vacation schedule. You released a game as an active service game....service it. God bless the Europeans for somehow convincing the world August is vacation time, but not everyone wants August so really that is kind of a **** move by them.


Sucks to be a North American I guess.

I would rather people take a break and recharge so they can do a better job for the rest of the year.



2. The point is they are looking for feedback....feedback is inherently a give and take scenario. They're gone, there is no take....that is bad PR.
3. Yeah they deserve a break and that is good and all, but when you go in to a break and announce that the next update is all about community feedback and then go on vacation and don't feed back to the community that is a really...bad look. Which was my entire point.

The people who produce and present SOTG are not the people who act on the feedback - hence the note that Hamish is not a developer. Multiple people from Ubi have been in these forums responding to threads and asking for feedback, and there were a series of dedicated reddit threads organized around specific topics.

Any changes implemented based on that feedback take time to design, build and test. I wouldn't expect SOTG to have any news on those changes until that is close to done.

DarkKnight27us
08-28-2019, 04:44 AM
1. I don't care two iotas about your vacation schedule. You released a game as an active service game....service it. God bless the Europeans for somehow convincing the world August is vacation time, but not everyone wants August so really that is kind of a **** move by them.
2. The point is they are looking for feedback....feedback is inherently a give and take scenario. They're gone, there is no take....that is bad PR.
3. Yeah they deserve a break and that is good and all, but when you go in to a break and announce that the next update is all about community feedback and then go on vacation and don't feed back to the community that is a really...bad look. Which was my entire point.

I seriously doubt that the entire company went on vacation all at the same time. That they shut off the lights and just walked away.

More likely, it was something like group A is off then group B then group C, or something like that. But it really doesn't matter. The devs are people and people need to take time off or they work they do will suffer.

So take a breath and relax. Obviously people like Alien and RealDude have been around on the forums to keep things working and I've seen both of them say something to the effect that they will pass info on for various posts.

The ETF will be next week and if we don't get a SotG tomorrow, we will most likely get one next week. Oh, and as a side note, feedback is not a "give and take" activity. Feedback goes one way, it's feedback, not a dialogue.

Riflemania
08-28-2019, 08:00 AM
I doubt there will be a SOTG as reddit normally have a SOTG post reserved for when it goes live.

I maybe wrong but that is how it's been for a long while now.

markvrk
08-28-2019, 10:10 AM
Holy gods of Feedback this is amazing. Kudos to you OP, it's been a long time since I've seen and read such a well put feedback post. Well done.
I agree with a lot that you've written, and I'll try to give my initial 2 cents, but to be honest, there's a lot to go through and I'm suppose to be working now so I might not get every through across.



Division 2 is currently in a spot where you can make a build, but there is no content in which would make that build feel useful. No content that makes you feel proud to have spent hours crafting a hyper-specific build in order to progress through content. Now, a build shouldn't be a requirement, because that would mean that you wouldn't be able to complete the activity at all without it. A build should be something that makes completing the activity easier. Still achievable without it, but much harder.

Right now the game only has that in the Raid with builds like Aces and very specific Weapon Damage and DTE builds. Without them the content is not impossible to beat, but it is significantly harder.

The Raid being designed the way it is, that does not make this a good thing. In fact, I'd even say it makes it worse as one the sets for one of the builds that makes it easier - drops in the Raid with the horrible RNG "blocking" it.


But, maybe the lack of builds is the point? If builds make content easier, why should mechanics be introduce that persuades them, if the developers want to create a sense of difficulty? For example, the raid only allowing 2 (or was it 3?) armor kits, down from 6 throughout the rest of the game.

That is actually something that I thought was a "cheap and lazy" way to artificially and additionally increase difficulty of a somewhat poorly designed difficulty scale for that particular content. NPCs scaling to ridiculous levels is a frustrating way to make content difficulty, but removing, or rather reducing the chances of players survivialbility to make the content feel more difficult, really just makes it more frustrating than anything else. It's the same as if an increased cooldown was permanent for all skills, during the entire content without any or with some lame narrative explanation. "Here's something you've learned to use, a build you worked hard to create...now go play endgame where we "take it away".

Frustrating, not challenging, not difficult, not fun. Frustrating and punishing for no logical reason.


And, I think that taking out incursions really hurt the need for builds. They were still pinnacle end game content with mechanics that had to be juggled and were always scaled for four players, no matter if you walked in solo. Division 2 doesn't have that "always scaled for four players" content with hazardous mechanics that persuades the use of a specific build, because it's clear that the raid doesn't do that with 8. (Well, it kind of does, but not in a good way)

So very true.

I hoped Strongholds were the new Incursions. Even after the announcement that they're soloable. Ok, so it scales accordingly, maybe some mechanics aren't included when solo, certain bosses, rewards are much lower. But yeah, instead they're prolonged missions.

Zoo mission (which is somehow not a Stronghold, yet designed like one), has better design and mechanics than the Hyena stronghold for example, even though they're also the bare minimum.


Difficulty is also an element that challenges the RPG. In a lot of games, an increase in difficulty means upping the health and damage of NPCs. This is a cheap cop out, in my opinion.

It's the go to Difficulty design logic in Division and it gets old quickly.

It's one of the main reasons why the Raid is basically a DPS check. Coupled with QTEs, it makes any other build pretty much useless in the "true PvE endgame".


To add more depth to the RPG, Division 2 could introduce "skill" trees for each of the main attributes. These attribute trees would further support a player's preferred play style by providing choices when reaching a specific attribute amount requirement. Do you want to have a passive offensive "Encouragement" talent that buffs your team's headshot damage when you get x amount of consecutive headshot kills or grants additional stability and accuracy to the entire team if you stay in cover after 4 seconds? Do you want to take aggro when your shield is active or do more melee damage with it? Do, you want your Blinder Firefly to debuff enemy resistances when blinded or increase the damage they take from melee when blinded?

A potential problem I see with this is, how do you balance it with brand/gear sets and weapon and gear talents? Would it help the balance, or break it even more?

Instead of adding talent trees, since we have those in a way with Specializations, perhaps the better option would be to further redesign Specialization trees;

Specialization sidearms don't need points invested in them to unlock them and upgrade them to the right WT
Specialization weapon damage automatically increases to the right WT scale
Specialization skill mods and skills are automatically unlocked when that Spec is active

Those are all now talent slots which have been made available, points as well, and can be used for something like you've suggested.

In addition, a number of gear talents are either very, very specific and therefore not really used, or more or less useless (even though they work in theory) and could be redesigned or replaced by other talents. Even with that, all these suggestions could be implemented as brand specific talents.

One more issue with talents is that they only have one single attribute requirement. For example, On the Ropes only requires 7 Utility - but why not add an additional requirement, I.E. your Offensive attribute cannot have more than 3 points? On The Ropes was (IMHO) designed to help skill builds deal some damage while skills are on cooldown, yet having 7 Utility proved not to be a difficult task to achieve, so that talent is used on DPS builds as a (somewhat) "must have".Attributes could also balance each other out - for example; Defense hits 10 points, and it lowers Offense by 1 and Utility by 1. It shouldn't completely ruin "jack of all trade" builds but would distance those builds further from "master of all trades", which shouldn't exist in RPGs.


Now, these talents could very well be gear set bonuses, but that comes down to the conversation about gear sets drowning out brand sets (high ends), something that happened in Division 1. Who would want that depends on who you ask, but these attribute trees would deepen the RPG significantly, without it being set behind RNG as normal gear talents, or having to wait for a gear set to be made. These attribute trees are the next best thing since Division doesn't want to be a game with locked "classes."

If they decided to drop Gear Sets from 6x piece to 4x piece, but leaving bonuses as they are....right now I don't think that would be an issue, but we'd need a PTS to test that.
I think the logic behind GS should remain the same - that they play a supportive role in groups, instead of being like they were in Div1. That's one way to leave brand sets important.

Another thing was the request to add "missing" slot pieces to all brand sets - adding a mask to a set that doesn't have it, etc. BUT - those could have "Prototype" in their name, and could be the only pieces that have these specific talents/bonuses along with their respective brand set bonuses. I.E. Overlord backpack would have that headshot talent.


This is kind of a call back to RNG. Agents, you may have heard the devs' idea about having all brand sets available in all six slots. At first I thought it sounded great, but then I thought about the RNG.

For instance, currently 10 / 16 (18 if you count gear sets) brand sets have masks available. But, if every brand set were to get a mask, that means this loot pool will increase by 6, only decreasing your chances of getting what you may actually need in that gear slot when you consider the other parts of your build. Then it comes down to available attributes and gear mod slot types. If the way we can recalibrate attributes at the station doesn't change, the approach to gear mod slots doesn't change, variants are still a thing, and there is no targeted grinding, RNG will be HELL.

I just wanted to bring this to your attention if you are someone who is in favor of this pending implementation.

That can be solved with targeted grinding, or having those pieces only drop from Projects and that way players would have a (or more?) reason to grind them. RIght now they're not always worth the hassle. But having gear that only drops from Projects...that's interesting and a good start of the overall incentive to grind that content.




How do you feel about having multiple avenues of end game progression? Do you think having too many will allow one to reach a perfect build too fast?
How do you feel about Targeted Grinding?




I feel it's a "must have" in an RPG game, but I don't think it would allow one to reach a perfect build too fast. Multiple avenues doesn't necessarily mean all of them give the same progression "path", and with a healthy and consistent content update and refreshment, reaching that perfect build and point of boredom due to having "nothing to do" would be even harder to reach. Not counting "no lifer" types that play the game 12h a day, figuratively (and literally) speaking.
I'd feel warm and fuzzy inside, as long as it's not 1 content for 1 piece, but a choice of a handful of contents for 1-2 pieces.




You have three factions that only exist in the open world - The Outlaws, the Underground, and the Hunters. They are assets for incursions!

Hell yes, please....While the Hunter puzzles were a great, fun RPG-like addition, I still feel Hunters are horribly underused as a resource that the playerbase loves.

The other 2 are so very interesting, with little bits and pieces of puzzles in the world, but still nothing that would tell their story. I.E. ViewPoint museum, we see one of the Outlaws?Undergrounders? with the True Son boss. Why is he there? Why do they know each other? What were they doing?


Anyways, what's for lunch?

Turkey filet with sweet potato :D


PvP

Haven't yet read your post on it, will do so, but here are some thoughts I've had on this;

Maybe there should be a real split between PvP and PvE. Gear and weapons should have both PvP and PvE stats with only 1 visible at a time, depending on which view we have toggled. Remove Normalization and Normalized stats view, and replace it with this. It wouldn't only show the stats, it would "toggle" them "on/off" as well.

So let's say you make a 3x Murakami 3x Gila build and you want to go to the DZ. You could toggle "PvE stats On" for Gila but you toggle "PvP stats On" for Murakami so you get whatever PvP stats would be on that brand set and could have a chance to stand and defend your ground should PvP come.

OR - could be a reason to group up with someone, and have a 2x PvE memebers and 2x PvP focused memebers in the team. One subteam handles most of the PvE work, while the other subteam, can tackle any PvP that might come their way.

That would mean that every brand and gear set would need a PvP "facelift" and extensive PTS testing (probably a month long PTS). Maybe not all Gear Sets should be made that way, some made purely for PvP group play, others for PvE group play (as I've mentioned before, I wish they remain in a teamplay support role, instead of "one man army" design).

In theory that would make balancing things for PvE and PvP easier, not just weapon damage modifiers, but also every Talent, gear bonus etc would have split balancing. So leave (i.e.)Clutch "OP" for PvE, but tweak it for PvP - different requirements, different bonus, timer, cooldown etc.



Here are also a couple of suggestions for different topics in short (I'm running out of free time at the moment :D );



Heroic content/Strongholds with Incursion design logic - NPCs scaled down, add "Directives" and add currency for them, like UG had in Div1. Drop locations and rates (etc.) same/similar to Target Intel.




Zoo mission added to the list of Invaded missions/strongholds.
After current weeks Invasion is done, have a % chance that one of the Strongholds, or Tidal Basin only?, is "occupied" by a part of the remnants of the 3 factions. 3 2x boss fights leading to 6x boss fight at the last area (full group scaling). Heroic difficulty remains for it, Directives optional. All can be Toggled like the Invaded option.
More Commendations - plenty of people find them enough incentive to grind same things over and over again;

Aerial Recon ("chunga" BT drone) kill commendation (It somehow only appears when I'm dealing with a CP4 solo :D )
100, 150 and 200 CP4 Commendations, maybe more depending on what the data shows - are they still a popular content or not?
No armor loss on Challenging and Heroic
Flawless on Challenging and Heroic
grindy commendations like X skill kills, X weapon type kills
DZ and Conflict Commendations...how come we haven't had any yet?
Most kills in Hard/Challenging/Heroic in a full group
Most revives in Hard/Challenging/Heroic in a full group
Most damage done in Hard/Challenging/Heroic in a full group (we can view those stats now, so why not make them slightly more important by adding these commendation goals?)
Kill X number of Y faction members (grindy as in Div 1, but why not? can be achieved by just playing the game...)


More Elite acitivites in the open world. Currently we have Elite Territory Control, Elite Patrol and Elite Supply Convoy right? Why not Elite Rescue Op, Elite Hostage Situation, Elite Control Point Assault....?
Region/Area/Neighborhood Random World Events -

3-4 part event that happens
all CPS are immediately lost
depending on group size scaled to a certain difficulty (i.e. solo - Hard, 2-3 Challenging, 4 Challenging with a % of Heroic)
need to solve 3-4 activities/puzzles/whatever, each with a boss, to reach the final boss
think of Guild Wars 2 world events, if you've played the game


Defender Drone doesn't work on the "pilot" or it blocks very little dmg % in comparison to % of dmg blocked for team memebers. Meaning it has a radius in which teammates need to be for it to block damage to them. Right now it's just one of those annoying "does the job for you" skills in PvP. It's not outbuilding, outplaying...it's just lame. Nothing better than burst healing from Div 1.





Anyway, once again, great post OP. I agree with most of it. If you need to take a backseat, feel burned out, ignored....then take a backseat. Relax and I don't know....I'm feeling the same. Wondering "why" when I feel like launching the game, or writting stuff like this. You gave me a bit of will and inspiration just now (as you can probably tell)....but in the end, I'm feeling the bench as well.

Thank you for trying and for putting all this together.

Hope to see you in DC :)

No.Soap4U
08-28-2019, 10:48 AM
2 Questions to consider - I don't wanna be unfair, because I had a lot of fun in The Division 2, it has a stunning game art and impressive diversity, but since a few evenings I play the original again because it's simply more managable and striking.

West Side Piers or other activities like these still rock. I was surpised about how much active The Division still is.

retro1236
08-28-2019, 11:06 AM
I doubt there will be a SOTG as reddit normally have a SOTG post reserved for when it goes live.

I maybe wrong but that is how it's been for a long while now.I think Hamish said he 'll go on vacation after gamescon in one of the twitch streams, god knows how long vacation though.. They said it'll be back late aug on last SOTG but I doubt it. Maybe early september if we're lucky..:(

Going to be a long time after TU5 to get any news or updates. Personally I don't think they can afford that. But what do I know..

TOKYO_ROGUE
08-28-2019, 11:13 AM
What are you guys actually waiting?

retro1236
08-28-2019, 11:15 AM
What are you guys actually waiting?Well, mostly some kind of confirmation on that they are actually working on the game and a date for TU6 I guess.

DemizeFPS
08-28-2019, 09:48 PM
What are you guys actually waiting?

The classic version of the division. ;)

Merphee
08-28-2019, 11:31 PM
That is actually something that I thought was a "cheap and lazy" way to artificially and additionally increase difficulty of a somewhat poorly designed difficulty scale for that particular content. NPCs scaling to ridiculous levels is a frustrating way to make content difficulty, but removing, or rather reducing the chances of players survivialbility to make the content feel more difficult, really just makes it more frustrating than anything else. It's the same as if an increased cooldown was permanent for all skills, during the entire content without any or with some lame narrative explanation. "Here's something you've learned to use, a build you worked hard to create...now go play endgame where we "take it away".

The lack of setup ruined the intention, imo. With the armor kits, I see what they wanted to do - promote heal builds - but the raid launched during a time when skill builds were weak, on top of the lack of set up. That was made worse when the meta was starting to be figured out.

Even with Survival in Division 1, the helicopter crash created logic as to why you would be scavenging for materials, weapons, and meds and such.




So very true.

I hoped Strongholds were the new Incursions. Even after the announcement that they're soloable. Ok, so it scales accordingly, maybe some mechanics aren't included when solo, certain bosses, rewards are much lower. But yeah, instead they're prolonged missions.

Zoo mission (which is somehow not a Stronghold, yet designed like one), has better design and mechanics than the Hyena stronghold for example, even though they're also the bare minimum.

Yep, Stronghold was an indication of narrative, rather than difficulty. When I saw Capitol Building pop up in one of the betas (I think it bugged, or it could have been intentional), I assumed it was the replacement for Incursions, but they weren't. I just hope they bring back Incursions, with their own exclusive gear and weapons that could then be taken into future raids. Using an end game activity to gear up for an even much harder end game activity.




It's the go to Difficulty design logic in Division and it gets old quickly.

It's one of the main reasons why the Raid is basically a DPS check. Coupled with QTEs, it makes any other build pretty much useless in the "true PvE endgame".



Right now the game only has that in the Raid with builds like Aces and very specific Weapon Damage and DTE builds. Without them the content is not impossible to beat, but it is significantly harder.

The Raid being designed the way it is, that does not make this a good thing. In fact, I'd even say it makes it worse as one the sets for one of the builds that makes it easier - drops in the Raid with the horrible RNG "blocking" it.

I think an issue is that no other build can be helpful, rather than this one or two builds being the only ones viable. In Division 1, Falcon Lost for example, Sentry, Final Measure, Reclaimer, and even something like Deadeye were all helpful in it. You weren't hurting the group by running these. Thing is - not everyone needed to run Final Measure, not everyone needed to be a healer. I think that's hurting the Raid: everyone has to be one thing and anything else would only hurt the group.

There was another niche, yet helpful build in the raid in the beginning, which was infamous Merciless build, so that you had someone(s) focusing on heavies and hounds, and even being able to do massive damage to bosses. "Fixing" that bug effectively made the Merciless build and any stretch of it being helpful obsolete in the raid. Fixing that bug hurt a brewing sense of build diversity in the raid that was present in Division 1 incursions.

And since then, what has changed in regards to build diversity in the raid? Or even, what has changed with Merciless?



A potential problem I see with this is, how do you balance it with brand/gear sets and weapon and gear talents? Would it help the balance, or break it even more?

Instead of adding talent trees, since we have those in a way with Specializations, perhaps the better option would be to further redesign Specialization trees;

Specialization sidearms don't need points invested in them to unlock them and upgrade them to the right WT
Specialization weapon damage automatically increases to the right WT scale
Specialization skill mods and skills are automatically unlocked when that Spec is active

Those are all now talent slots which have been made available, points as well, and can be used for something like you've suggested.

In addition, a number of gear talents are either very, very specific and therefore not really used, or more or less useless (even though they work in theory) and could be redesigned or replaced by other talents. Even with that, all these suggestions could be implemented as brand specific talents.

One more issue with talents is that they only have one single attribute requirement. For example, On the Ropes only requires 7 Utility - but why not add an additional requirement, I.E. your Offensive attribute cannot have more than 3 points? On The Ropes was (IMHO) designed to help skill builds deal some damage while skills are on cooldown, yet having 7 Utility proved not to be a difficult task to achieve, so that talent is used on DPS builds as a (somewhat) "must have".Attributes could also balance each other out - for example; Defense hits 10 points, and it lowers Offense by 1 and Utility by 1. It shouldn't completely ruin "jack of all trade" builds but would distance those builds further from "master of all trades", which shouldn't exist in RPGs.

I guess it depends on what those talents would be. Essentially the skill trees would exist outside of specializations, so that you wouldn't be locked into any of them. No doubt that they could be improved, especially those armor kits for some of them. Specialization trees would have to change significantly to persuade choice, rather than being able to "fill it all up" if you have accumulated enough points to do so.




I feel it's a "must have" in an RPG game, but I don't think it would allow one to reach a perfect build too fast. Multiple avenues doesn't necessarily mean all of them give the same progression "path", and with a healthy and consistent content update and refreshment, reaching that perfect build and point of boredom due to having "nothing to do" would be even harder to reach. Not counting "no lifer" types that play the game 12h a day, figuratively (and literally) speaking.
I'd feel warm and fuzzy inside, as long as it's not 1 content for 1 piece, but a choice of a handful of contents for 1-2 pieces.


That's true, and I also believe that it depends on the pacing of those progression paths.

I think that's where the apprehensiveness of targeted grinding comes from. Barret's vest gets used. When it was introduced, Lexington was the only place to grab it. Although I personally didn't mind it, I can see how it would be frustrating because that was the only place to grab it.

But when we look at the BTSU gloves, it can drop from any named Black Tusk, rather than just the one that its lore mentions. Meaning, any activity that has a named Black Tusk has a chance to drop the gloves. I think that's the better approach to targeted grinding than how Barret's vest was introduced. At least for exotics, anyway.



Hell yes, please....While the Hunter puzzles were a great, fun RPG-like addition, I still feel Hunters are horribly underused as a resource that the playerbase loves.

The other 2 are so very interesting, with little bits and pieces of puzzles in the world, but still nothing that would tell their story. I.E. ViewPoint museum, we see one of the Outlaws?Undergrounders? with the True Son boss. Why is he there? Why do they know each other? What were they doing?

One thing with the Hunters is that their unpredictable presence is a huge part of the game's marketing. The lack of information / lore around them is an attempt to make experiencing them surreal. Then again, that'd probably make the want for a Hunter designated activity, like an incursion, even stronger. Lol.

I think the Underground are the same way. They don't speak, only appear in sewers or extremely small corners in the map, or at night. The Outlaws, I can see being a go-to, since, yeah, there's a connection there with the True Sons, and they tend to appear more often than the other two. So I can definitely see an Outlaws incursion being the first.



Turkey filet with sweet potato :D

Nice. :)



Here are also a couple of suggestions for different topics in short (I'm running out of free time at the moment :D );


Heroic content/Strongholds with Incursion design logic - NPCs scaled down, add "Directives" and add currency for them, like UG had in Div1. Drop locations and rates (etc.) same/similar to Target Intel.


Zoo mission added to the list of Invaded missions/strongholds.
After current weeks Invasion is done, have a % chance that one of the Strongholds, or Tidal Basin only?, is "occupied" by a part of the remnants of the 3 factions. 3 2x boss fights leading to 6x boss fight at the last area (full group scaling). Heroic difficulty remains for it, Directives optional. All can be Toggled like the Invaded option.
More Commendations - plenty of people find them enough incentive to grind same things over and over again;

Aerial Recon ("chunga" BT drone) kill commendation (It somehow only appears when I'm dealing with a CP4 solo :D )
100, 150 and 200 CP4 Commendations, maybe more depending on what the data shows - are they still a popular content or not?
No armor loss on Challenging and Heroic
Flawless on Challenging and Heroic
grindy commendations like X skill kills, X weapon type kills
DZ and Conflict Commendations...how come we haven't had any yet?
Most kills in Hard/Challenging/Heroic in a full group
Most revives in Hard/Challenging/Heroic in a full group
Most damage done in Hard/Challenging/Heroic in a full group (we can view those stats now, so why not make them slightly more important by adding these commendation goals?)
Kill X number of Y faction members (grindy as in Div 1, but why not? can be achieved by just playing the game...)


More Elite acitivites in the open world. Currently we have Elite Territory Control, Elite Patrol and Elite Supply Convoy right? Why not Elite Rescue Op, Elite Hostage Situation, Elite Control Point Assault....?
Region/Area/Neighborhood Random World Events -

3-4 part event that happens
all CPS are immediately lost
depending on group size scaled to a certain difficulty (i.e. solo - Hard, 2-3 Challenging, 4 Challenging with a % of Heroic)
need to solve 3-4 activities/puzzles/whatever, each with a boss, to reach the final boss
think of Guild Wars 2 world events, if you've played the game


Defender Drone doesn't work on the "pilot" or it blocks very little dmg % in comparison to % of dmg blocked for team memebers. Meaning it has a radius in which teammates need to be for it to block damage to them. Right now it's just one of those annoying "does the job for you" skills in PvP. It's not outbuilding, outplaying...it's just lame. Nothing better than burst healing from Div 1.





- I do expect new main mission to eventually have invaded versions. White Oak, though, it only needs the Heroic option.

- Grindy commendations should be a no-brainer. They might be filler, but at least it's something to do and gets completed passively. I wouldn't mind a Gold weapon skin or a prestigious skill FX mod for completing a commendation that requires xx,xxx amount of kills. Stuff like that services the game more, even if it's a simple requirement and a simple reward that may take a while to complete.

- I'm surprised there aren't commendations relating to open world activities. Commendations could be improved so much, it's insane. (hint hint at a new thread someone could make. :))

- You might piss off people with that most damage done in a group commendation :)



Anyway, once again, great post OP. I agree with most of it. If you need to take a backseat, feel burned out, ignored....then take a backseat. Relax and I don't know....I'm feeling the same. Wondering "why" when I feel like launching the game, or writting stuff like this. You gave me a bit of will and inspiration just now (as you can probably tell)....but in the end, I'm feeling the bench as well.

Thank you for trying and for putting all this together.

Hope to see you in DC :)

If you're on PC, you may see me pop up in matchmaking if you use it. :)

markvrk
08-29-2019, 08:43 AM
The lack of setup ruined the intention, imo. With the armor kits, I see what they wanted to do - promote heal builds - but the raid launched during a time when skill builds were weak, on top of the lack of set up. That was made worse when the meta was starting to be figured out.

Even with Survival in Division 1, the helicopter crash created logic as to why you would be scavenging for materials, weapons, and meds and such.

I think an issue is that no other build can be helpful, rather than this one or two builds being the only ones viable. In Division 1, Falcon Lost for example, Sentry, Final Measure, Reclaimer, and even something like Deadeye were all helpful in it. You weren't hurting the group by running these. Thing is - not everyone needed to run Final Measure, not everyone needed to be a healer. I think that's hurting the Raid: everyone has to be one thing and anything else would only hurt the group.

I think an issue is that no other build can be helpful, rather than this one or two builds being the only ones viable. In Division 1, Falcon Lost for example, Sentry, Final Measure, Reclaimer, and even something like Deadeye were all helpful in it. You weren't hurting the group by running these. Thing is - not everyone needed to run Final Measure, not everyone needed to be a healer. I think that's hurting the Raid: everyone has to be one thing and anything else would only hurt the group.

There was another niche, yet helpful build in the raid in the beginning, which was infamous Merciless build, so that you had someone(s) focusing on heavies and hounds, and even being able to do massive damage to bosses. "Fixing" that bug effectively made the Merciless build and any stretch of it being helpful obsolete in the raid. Fixing that bug hurt a brewing sense of build diversity in the raid that was present in Division 1 incursions.

And since then, what has changed in regards to build diversity in the raid? Or even, what has changed with Merciless?

A proper setup might explain that they wanted people to have like 1 dedicated healer per group in the Raid, but we're back at the design and difficulty logic - overscaled/on steroids NPCs alone require DPS builds.

Healers aren't exactly that in the game, "Tank" is a build and playstyle idea that just doesn't live in the Division 2 world even after Gunner spec was introduced, which I believe was suppose to somehow fill that playstyle itch.

Then the mechanics - most of them require all parties involved to be on the DPS side, with the only other side/option again being Aces or Merciless before the bug was patched.

Gear sets, brand set combos would work well in the Raid, if only the NPCs were scaled down and numbers increased if the engine can handle that. (I remember Terry saying something on an old Div1 stream that the engine can only handle an X amount of NPCs spawned at a time...?) There might be a need to redesign some mechanics, so that's why I don't think the Airport will ever be that significantly changed.

But I do hope that future Raids are designed differently, so that (I.E.) any build type a player has for PvE that works well on Challenging and Heroic content, both solo and group play - is a good choice for the Raid, and won't hurt the teams.


I guess it depends on what those talents would be. Essentially the skill trees would exist outside of specializations, so that you wouldn't be locked into any of them. No doubt that they could be improved, especially those armor kits for some of them. Specialization trees would have to change significantly to persuade choice, rather than being able to "fill it all up" if you have accumulated enough points to do so.

Not sure how that would work with the Spec trees though, as those are suppose to be the Division version of skill trees/class trees. Gear talents and bonuses, I think, were suppose to be the replacement for a "outside" skill tree.

If such a skill tree is added, then more rework/design and testing is needed for Spec trees, talents and bonuses on all items - what does and should stack, what not? Does it make it OP or UP? Is there a nasty bug somewhere that creates more headaches. How does it work with new Specs and items planned for the future?

Just feels like adding this stuff as completely new mechanics, instead of a "facelift" to existing, might create a lot more issues in a "1 step forward, 5 steps back" way.


I think that's where the apprehensiveness of targeted grinding comes from. Barret's vest gets used. When it was introduced, Lexington was the only place to grab it. Although I personally didn't mind it, I can see how it would be frustrating because that was the only place to grab it.

But when we look at the BTSU gloves, it can drop from any named Black Tusk, rather than just the one that its lore mentions. Meaning, any activity that has a named Black Tusk has a chance to drop the gloves. I think that's the better approach to targeted grinding than how Barret's vest was introduced. At least for exotics, anyway.


The thing with Barrets vest (IIRC) was that at the time of introduction it was not only the "go-to" choice of chestpiece, but a "must have" as it worked with pretty much any build. Again an outlier.
So a lot of players felt like they need to grind Lexington 24/7. Which is a horrible choice but one I can understand as without that chest, the game made you feel like you were really behind everyone who had it. Not a small, managable difference, but a big one. But burning out by playing the same thing, over and over again, for hours on end....yeah, no thanks. I'd rather be behind gear-wise and still enjoy the game, than be jaded and raging because I can't "beat" RNG of a single mission...

BTSU gloves drop logic is much better, but also not sure if good for every exotic going forward. EB being behind the raid is a good thing, as certain endgame content needs as much incentive as it can get, and having such items behind it is good, imho.


One thing with the Hunters is that their unpredictable presence is a huge part of the game's marketing. The lack of information / lore around them is an attempt to make experiencing them surreal. Then again, that'd probably make the want for a Hunter designated activity, like an incursion, even stronger. Lol.

I think the Underground are the same way. They don't speak, only appear in sewers or extremely small corners in the map, or at night. The Outlaws, I can see being a go-to, since, yeah, there's a connection there with the True Sons, and they tend to appear more often than the other two. So I can definitely see an Outlaws incursion being the first.

But Hunters aren't that new any more. Still mysterious? Sure, but now seems like a good time to progress their story, which doesn't mean removing the veil of mystery. Puzzles were a small step in that progression, if that was the intent and not just a fun puzzle-game with a Hunter result.

A Hunter content in form of mission or stronghold or Raid even, doesn't have to be Hunter-exclusive. For example, Black Tusk could have an Outpost somewhere in/near DC, we get sent to investigate, destroy it or whatever only to find BTs in distress, some of them dead and ISAC catches bits of their communication about "something or someone killing them", add some of that UI and audio static and there's a solid foundation for a Hunter-tastic end of that content, while still having a solid mystery-wall around them.

Undergrounders and Outlaws are cool, but not as mysterious as Hunters. So either some connections could be made and expanded, or at least one piece of content added, just so that resource isn't left underused.

Bambihunter71
08-29-2019, 06:56 PM
I've now read all 15 pages of this thread so I'll add my 2 cents to a few of the ideas mentioned.

Targeted loot is good as long as it is not exclusive loot. In other words, let's say one specific mission gives you a 5% drop rate of a certain item. But, I believe it should still be available elsewhere at a much lower rate. That way if you really want that item, you run that content. But, if you hate that specific content, you can play for many, many more hours to get said item. Across 2 accounts, I have over 3k hours in TD1. I was about to leave the game when the removed they DZ requirement to get certain gear. Now, if it was gear like Banshee where it was only of (little) use in the DZ, OK. To have many hours in a game and never be able to get it unless you do this one specific thing? Well, that sounds like work. Targeted is good. Exclusive is not.

The guy talking about the PvE DZ, I can't disagree with the sentiment, but I gave that thought up a long time ago. About 85% of my DZ time in TD1 was interrupted by griefers. There was an occasional rare instance where after they kill you a time or two, they move on but usually I hit 4v1 squads pestering solos followed by the obligatory 'git gud'. I quit playing the DZ with my main account a few years ago but revisited it on both accounts for the bare minimum of what it took to complete the SHIELD commendations.

For those saying once you get your build the way you want it, what's the point of playing? If one truly enjoys the content, they keep playing. In all my hours in TD1 on my main account, I have 4 characters. All 4 have all 14 classified loadouts, all fully optimized. Many have alternative loadouts for specific uses and/or theorycrafting. Players that like a challenge will often self-impose artificial challenges such as use a pistol only, no healing, etc.

For many of the reasons Murphee brought up here, I have hardly any time in TD2. I just am not enjoying it. A couple of things leading up to it, then every fix breaking something else, getting killed more often than not due to glass walls, I decided to step away but keep an eye on these forums to see if things improve. I have 4 characters, all staggered by about 5 levels so I just hand the loot down. Intentionally, am not quite yet at the end game. In my eyes, they have a while to get this right. I think I'll be busy for quite a while starting September 13th.

Merphee
09-02-2019, 12:05 AM
I've now read all 15 pages of this thread so I'll add my 2 cents to a few of the ideas mentioned.

Targeted loot is good as long as it is not exclusive loot. In other words, let's say one specific mission gives you a 5% drop rate of a certain item. But, I believe it should still be available elsewhere at a much lower rate. That way if you really want that item, you run that content. But, if you hate that specific content, you can play for many, many more hours to get said item. Across 2 accounts, I have over 3k hours in TD1. I was about to leave the game when the removed they DZ requirement to get certain gear. Now, if it was gear like Banshee where it was only of (little) use in the DZ, OK. To have many hours in a game and never be able to get it unless you do this one specific thing? Well, that sounds like work. Targeted is good. Exclusive is not.

The guy talking about the PvE DZ, I can't disagree with the sentiment, but I gave that thought up a long time ago. About 85% of my DZ time in TD1 was interrupted by griefers. There was an occasional rare instance where after they kill you a time or two, they move on but usually I hit 4v1 squads pestering solos followed by the obligatory 'git gud'. I quit playing the DZ with my main account a few years ago but revisited it on both accounts for the bare minimum of what it took to complete the SHIELD commendations.

For those saying once you get your build the way you want it, what's the point of playing? If one truly enjoys the content, they keep playing. In all my hours in TD1 on my main account, I have 4 characters. All 4 have all 14 classified loadouts, all fully optimized. Many have alternative loadouts for specific uses and/or theorycrafting. Players that like a challenge will often self-impose artificial challenges such as use a pistol only, no healing, etc.

For many of the reasons Murphee brought up here, I have hardly any time in TD2. I just am not enjoying it. A couple of things leading up to it, then every fix breaking something else, getting killed more often than not due to glass walls, I decided to step away but keep an eye on these forums to see if things improve. I have 4 characters, all staggered by about 5 levels so I just hand the loot down. Intentionally, am not quite yet at the end game. In my eyes, they have a while to get this right. I think I'll be busy for quite a while starting September 13th.

- Targeted grinding all depends on the execution. From what I gathered, no one wants a Barrett's vest fiasco, and although I didn't mind it, I'd agree with that sentiment.

- A PVE DZ. Ah yes, the years of threads that flooded the Division 1 forums. I remember them. I think the proper route was taken, which was the devs buffing the light zone. The issue now is that the DZ needs its overdue buffs to wet the whistles of those who enjoy the experience. A PVE DZ... let's just say for it to exist in the current state of the game, you wouldn't brand it as a DZ, and it wouldn't utilize the current LZ. You'd designate it as an "off site activity", but hey, that's all I am admitting. *sips tea and smiles* :)

- I've only just hopped on the game last night and played a couple missions after maybe two weeks away from it. We're in between updates. This has happened with TU4 and TU5, everything just slowed down to a point where there is, at least for me, no need to play.

YodaMan 3D
09-02-2019, 12:25 AM
- Targeted grinding all depends on the execution. From what I gathered, no one wants a Barrett's vest fiasco, and although I didn't mind it, I'd agree with that sentiment.

- A PVE DZ. Ah yes, the years of threads that flooded the Division 1 forums. I remember them. I think the proper route was taken, which was the devs buffing the light zone. The issue now is that the DZ needs its overdue buffs to wet the whistles of those who enjoy the experience. A PVE DZ... let's just say for it to exist in the current state of the game, you wouldn't brand it as a DZ, and it wouldn't utilize the current LZ. You'd designate it as an "off site activity", but hey, that's all I am admitting. *sips tea and smiles* :)

- I've only just hopped on the game last night and played a couple missions after maybe two weeks away from it. We're in between updates. This has happened with TU4 and TU5, everything just slowed down to a point where there is, at least for me, no need to play.

Ah! My old friend. We know how they execute locked content. Those who seem most intrigued by locked content, seem to have too short of memory of Showstopper, Barret's Chestpiece, Ferro's Mask, or Bliss's Holster. Those who got those items easily never minded the hunt. Those who never saw them, well that was always a different argument.

As for PvE DZ, it was always a great suggestion and should have been done, thing was always going to be the execution.

Currently, for me the state of the game is all about the Raid, it is nearly impossible to find players willing to play anything else. Then again, seeing how so many feel they have to be rewarded, won't play anything else. Then only players staying till next update are those that just enjoy the game.

IVIORTON
09-02-2019, 02:02 AM
Ah! My old friend. We know how they execute locked content. Those who seem most intrigued by locked content, seem to have too short of memory of Showstopper, Barret's Chestpiece, Ferro's Mask, or Bliss's Holster. Those who got those items easily never minded the hunt. Those who never saw them, well that was always a different argument.

As for PvE DZ, it was always a great suggestion and should have been done, thing was always going to be the execution.

Currently, for me the state of the game is all about the Raid, it is nearly impossible to find players willing to play anything else. Then again, seeing how so many feel they have to be rewarded, won't play anything else. Then only players staying till next update are those that just enjoy the game.

I only hopped on to help my buddy with the raid... great news he got his EB so now I'm without a need or want to play. At least until the PvP & DZ "gits gud" and RNG gets better and few other things.
With all of the overflowing content in the LZ, im willing to give up a DZ, but would like some improvements. I think the DZ needs to be increased in size and player count. Maybe connect the south and the east with the unused space to the south. Than give the west up for PvE only. Only occupied DZ is the PvP DZ. but scale the NPCs... for the love of everything good. No reason to have raid scaled NPC'S in the ODZ.
Never been a fan of the 4v1 "gank squads" but with the time to kill and handicapped skills (lack of a skill gap) this is far more relevant in D2.
I personally think an armor kit time scaled to solo, two person, three, and four person teams would fix this. Ie if you're solo, instant kit, two man slightly slower and so on.

markvrk
09-02-2019, 11:25 AM
I personally think an armor kit time scaled to solo, two person, three, and four person teams would fix this. Ie if you're solo, instant kit, two man slightly slower and so on.

Easily abusable.

Burst healing is something that should never return to the game, imho.

IVIORTON
09-02-2019, 02:57 PM
Easily abusable.

Burst healing is something that should never return to the game, imho.

I disagree with dismissing an intial thought for game improvement. It was a spitball idea started from a valid issue. If you're solo and go against multiple players...

Also consider this "burst healing" is what made the game have a skill gap. This is one of the major unspoken core issues of PvP. D2 PvP just doesn't feel like an outplaying PvP because of the time to kill paired with the lack of healing skills and abilities.

You say no to burst healing, but your response lacks any mention of skills/weapons that completely do the opposite. In my opinion you cant have a one shot weapon/skill (bomber drone, nemesis for example) without having a counter balance. To me that counter balance is faster healing, and more available healing skills. And while maybe it should not be "instant"... it definitely should not be a stationary three second event as well.

Cause what is "easley abusable" is knowing a 4v1 situation will always come out on the side of of the four. Because there simply isn't ways to "out play" your opponents. Why... because you have to stand still for a delayed time to get healed. This is one of the major problems PVPers have with the game.

And while you say it should never return to the game. There needs to better system of healing than what is available currently. So maybe the answer isn't instant, but having to be stationary for a few seconds is the opposite end of the spectrum.

Merphee
09-02-2019, 04:14 PM
Ah! My old friend. We know how they execute locked content. Those who seem most intrigued by locked content, seem to have too short of memory of Showstopper, Barret's Chestpiece, Ferro's Mask, or Bliss's Holster. Those who got those items easily never minded the hunt. Those who never saw them, well that was always a different argument.

I wouldn't call it easy. Everyone's chances were the same, after all. Some players just had more time.


As for PvE DZ, it was always a great suggestion and should have been done, thing was always going to be the execution.

Even back then, I don't recall reading a PVE DZ being executed similarly to Survival or Underground, as in occuring separately from the game. People just wanted to remove PVP from the current DZ. I just knew that approach wasn't going to happen. Then Division 2 threw us "off-site activities", and well... it's kinda possible now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You'd probably want it that way, because its experience can be curated with that approach, without it feeling like a carbon copy of the DZ.


Currently, for me the state of the game is all about the Raid, it is nearly impossible to find players willing to play anything else. Then again, seeing how so many feel they have to be rewarded, won't play anything else. Then only players staying till next update are those that just enjoy the game.

I need a specific backpack before I hop into the raid, and with the current state of RNG, that might not happen this patch, ...or I'd have to be ok with getting carried. Ego won't allow that, though. :)

markvrk
09-03-2019, 09:53 AM
Also consider this "burst healing" is what made the game have a skill gap. This is one of the major unspoken core issues of PvP. D2 PvP just doesn't feel like an outplaying PvP because of the time to kill paired with the lack of healing skills and abilities.

IMHO burst healing had nothing to do with skill. Sure, there are arguments that knowing when to pop a heal, which type of heal etc. is skill. But from Div1 PvP experience, it had very little to do with skill. That kind of a healing system, along with those ridiculous Signature Skills, did the work for you. Same as Defender Drone for example, does the work for the player in Div 2. THere's no skill involved in hitting a key and letting some mechanic "save you".



You say no to burst healing, but your response lacks any mention of skills/weapons that completely do the opposite. In my opinion you cant have a one shot weapon/skill (bomber drone, nemesis for example) without having a counter balance. To me that counter balance is faster healing, and more available healing skills. And while maybe it should not be "instant"... it definitely should not be a stationary three second event as well.

Bomber drone;

It's a drone, those destroy themsleves as much as they destroy targets.
It's loud and has very few HP
It can be EMPed
It's slow. By the time it "locks on" the designated "area of bombardment" and actually flies over there...rolling out of the way is the #1 counter to that.


Nemesis damage charge could use a rework in PvP. Don't see that much of an issue in PvE, if any at all. But in PvP it's just a cheap, somewhat lame "Div 2 Deadeye replacement". Maybe an increase in the charge time for PvP or something like that...can't remember if it automatically fires once it's fully charged, but if not, it should.



Cause what is "easley abusable" is knowing a 4v1 situation will always come out on the side of of the four. Because there simply isn't ways to "out play" your opponents. Why... because you have to stand still for a delayed time to get healed. This is one of the major problems PVPers have with the game.

It won't always, but it should in the majority of cases. Why should there be mechanics that favor the solo instead of the full group?

Back in Div1 Classified Nomad was an idea to "solve" that "problem" and it backfired spectacularly. In a game with so many RPG elements/systems/mechanics, solo players shouldn't be near an equal footing with full sized groups.

If you keep getting killed by a full sized group in the DZ (as I assume that is where this PvP, you're refering to, occurs) then group up with someone to improve your odds. Go to a different DZ if you can't find anyone to group and the group is griefing you. It's the DZ - it's not suppose to be catering to survival, especially not if you go in solo and there's a Rogue group roaming around.

Another thing about burst healing is that if it makes a comeback - how do you adequately balance Armor, Health, TTK, TTBK, gear talents and bonuses, damage numbers from skills and weapons.....without going back to a circle jerking, chicken dancing, "15 min to kill someone" (figuratively speaking) PvP clusterfudge that was in Div1.



And while you say it should never return to the game. There needs to better system of healing than what is available currently. So maybe the answer isn't instant, but having to be stationary for a few seconds is the opposite end of the spectrum.

There' needs to be better TTK, TTBK, PvP gear, weapon, skill and talent balance so you can survive for more than a few seconds. So that Armor actually feels and is meaningful, for example, and that the meta is not a "jack of all trades" build (i.e. 5 11 7) which acts like a "master of all trades".

There's plenty of other things that need to looked at, redesigned, rebalanced....before looking at Armor Kits and how they work. The only way that would be reasonable (IMHO) for Armor Kits to be faster is with a gear talent with very "harsh" requirements. For example "Not Today - Armor plate swaping is increased by 50%. Requires max 3 Defense" (and perhaps max 5 Offense, would require testing)

Merphee
09-06-2019, 06:11 PM
Agents, today is the last day of the ETF.

And, being made 4 weeks prior to the ETF, we can only hope that this thread had made an impact on the future of the game.

DemizeFPS
09-07-2019, 01:13 AM
I hope Buzz saw this thread. I tweeted Hamish about this thread but I doubt he gave a damn.
We shall see, time will tell. I hope Realdude passed up the feedback to the appropriate teams.

FunkAyFOO
09-07-2019, 04:43 PM
With all of the overflowing content in the LZ, im willing to give up a DZ, but would like some improvements. I think the DZ needs to be increased in size and player count. Maybe connect the south and the east with the unused space to the south. Than give the west up for PvE only. Only occupied DZ is the PvP DZ. but scale the NPCs... for the love of everything good. No reason to have raid scaled NPC'S in the ODZ.
Never been a fan of the 4v1 "gank squads" but with the time to kill and handicapped skills (lack of a skill gap) this is far more relevant in D2.
I personally think an armor kit time scaled to solo, two person, three, and four person teams would fix this. Ie if you're solo, instant kit, two man slightly slower and so on.

Connecting DZ South to DZ East like that would make an awkward backwards L-shape. Even connecting them underground might not work if we want to keep to realism with current subway tunnels. One that doesn't have to be true would fix that.

On the other hand, it's more likely they expand the existing DZ zones. For example, you could include the island that span the Charles R Fenwick Bridge. The southern part is a golf course so maybe no access to survey the actual landscape, but they can easily get around that with a story narrative. You could say it was devastated, it doesn't have to look like it is now. After a bad miss, Keener had an anger management episode. As usual, he forgets his cell phone and our agent picks up the comm that tells all. :D

What's interesting about the Washington Channel is that it is a liveboard marina (people make these boats their primary residence). The USS Sequoia is also docked there. The boats could make for an interesting battleground and loot locations. The channel is about 75 feet wide with long piers so you could definitely use your imagination to span shore lines and make interesting artificial avenues to cross as well as choke points. This is likely unique, not many natural landscapes give the devs this kind of opportunity.

As for 4v1 ganking, maybe rotate a DZ for solo PvP mode (no grouping possibility). Put it into the story line that your mission is so secret that going in solo is best. This allows for more even 1v1 PvP play. This doesn't stop random rogues from shooting same target but there isn't a coordinated 4 man squad able to help each other revive or receive buffs.

Merphee
09-07-2019, 07:45 PM
As for 4v1 ganking, maybe rotate a DZ for solo PvP mode (no grouping possibility). Put it into the story line that your mission is so secret that going in solo is best. This allows for more even 1v1 PvP play. This doesn't stop random rogues from shooting same target but there isn't a coordinated 4 man squad able to help each other revive or receive buffs.

The current DZ has a solo queue option, apparently, but it's not a hard rule. That's one thing that I am still hoping out for.

Then again, anything goes in the DZ, even 4 v 1. A "true" solo queue DZ is asking for fairness (on paper) in a place that doesn't really welcome it, but would you consider it a justifiable fairness compared to other experiences used to try to justify a change? Remember, solo queue DZ does not mean removing PVP.

Is the goal to have more 4 v 1s occur, or to have more people participate, or at least, tolerate PVP in general? I mean, that's a question for Redstorm, but I think the answer to this question could very well put an official stance on whether or not to include a true solo queue DZ. ...And also reveal their true motivations lol.

FunkAyFOO
09-07-2019, 11:03 PM
Yes, DZ will still be PvP with rogues. All this talk about DZ dying, maybe we should have more DZ options. Make it interesting for those who just want a chance. The rogues may have an advantage but at least give others a hope that they can win 25-50% of the time. Not many enjoy playing when the win ratio is like 0-10%. This not the PvE DZ, it is still a full on DZ mode but it is scaled.

1v1 or have a 2DZ mode (max 2 player teams) will entice those who still want all of DZ in PvP but just don't have the time to get 3 busy friends to line up for a couple hours or so. Not everyone are still teenagers or live in parents basements with loads of time on their hands.

Riflemania
09-08-2019, 09:06 AM
rogues

It's nice to see when someone knows how to spell it, makes a change from rouge;)

Cadillac-Jack
09-08-2019, 10:43 AM
People worried about targeted loot then here is/are a few or single suggestions.

1, make the brand sets faction specific. (ergo True sons/Outcasts/Hyena's) we already have targeted with the Black tusk invasion (green gear)

2, instead of missions over and over to get certain brands/gear, have them in Control points they are procedural in who has control over them so grinding for specific items wouldn't become samey.

Here me out here if you want, say you want Douglas/Harding or Sokolov and an SMG or shotgun you have to take control of a Hyena CP3 for one piece of gear and one weapon a CP4 for 2 or 3 pieces and two weapons in the yellow crate. now you can only do it when Hyena's have control of a CP. and so on with each faction.

There are approx. 24 Control points around the map all change on a regular basis and all have different ways to attack/defend/layouts so each one would be different, you also have to get those CP's to level 3 and 4 by doing other stuff in the map (so it wouldn't just be a boring run to CP4 take control/defend get gear.) it would make a change from running the same mission over and over like Lex from Div 1.

It's kind of targeted but procedural at the same time, I think it would alleviate the Samey feeling to a degree.

The upshot is if you want SMG's/shotguns and D/h or Solokov/Wyvern you take on Hyena's, if you want LMG's/Rifles/overlords/Petrov/Providence you take on True sons , you want AR's/Marksman rifles/Gila/Fenris/Badger tuff you take on Outcasts.

Also if you clear 3 CP4's of the same faction in one session/log in you get a chance of an Exotic drop (heyena's/Chatterbox) etc etc etc and a faction specific cosmetic item.

with this you can target what build you want and where to get it in a more diverse/dynamic non linear manner it would also cut down on the insane RNG for the most part.

The open world is still lootable but you take your chances on what you'll find. CP's will be specific in their loot.

Merphee
09-08-2019, 09:49 PM
People worried about targeted loot then here is/are a few or single suggestions.

1, make the brand sets faction specific. (ergo True sons/Outcasts/Hyena's) we already have targeted with the Black tusk invasion (green gear)

2, instead of missions over and over to get certain brands/gear, have them in Control points they are procedural in who has control over them so grinding for specific items wouldn't become samey.

Here me out here if you want, say you want Douglas/Harding or Sokolov and an SMG or shotgun you have to take control of a Hyena CP3 for one piece of gear and one weapon a CP4 for 2 or 3 pieces and two weapons in the yellow crate. now you can only do it when Hyena's have control of a CP. and so on with each faction.

There are approx. 24 Control points around the map all change on a regular basis and all have different ways to attack/defend/layouts so each one would be different, you also have to get those CP's to level 3 and 4 by doing other stuff in the map (so it wouldn't just be a boring run to CP4 take control/defend get gear.) it would make a change from running the same mission over and over like Lex from Div 1.

It's kind of targeted but procedural at the same time, I think it would alleviate the Samey feeling to a degree.

The upshot is if you want SMG's/shotguns and D/h or Solokov/Wyvern you take on Hyena's, if you want LMG's/Rifles/overlords/Petrov/Providence you take on True sons , you want AR's/Marksman rifles/Gila/Fenris/Badger tuff you take on Outcasts.

Also if you clear 3 CP4's of the same faction in one session/log in you get a chance of an Exotic drop (heyena's/Chatterbox) etc etc etc and a faction specific cosmetic item.

with this you can target what build you want and where to get it in a more diverse/dynamic non linear manner it would also cut down on the insane RNG for the most part.

The open world is still lootable but you take your chances on what you'll find. CP's will be specific in their loot.

Brand set specific drops for factions makes sense.

Having brand sets only drop from factions that more or less fits their theme is a way to curate targeted grinding. I've seen the idea thrown around a couple times. Another avenue to targeted grind wouldn't hurt.

I think we should still have a conversation about having too many avenues for "perfect" loot. A question for everyone: would it hurt or help your experience?

Cadillac-Jack
09-09-2019, 11:15 AM
I think we should still have a conversation about having too many avenues for "perfect" loot. A question for everyone: would it hurt or help your experience?

Personally I don't think it comes down to how many avenues but what those avenues are.

The Raid is a given, the DZ should be a given area, but instead of running the same missions over and over make the grind dynamic in a way (that's why I mentioned Control points it's never the same one in the same place.) it for the most part would be different everytime, I mean we can run the same missions over and over but dynamic events would be a better grind.

LubzinNJ
09-09-2019, 11:57 AM
I think we should still have a conversation about having too many avenues for "perfect" loot. A question for everyone: would it hurt or help your experience?

FWIW I don't think targeted grinding is a solution, there is very specific gear sets that people are interested in and I don't want to see Lex 2.0...

As far as what I quoted the problem isn't so much perfect loot as much as it is loot that you can fit in to a build. Part of that is there are some very specific builds that require very specific talents and attribute distribution, and frankly coming across a W chest with a X talent that has Y and Z attribute on it and is usable for a build you are working towards is so gut wrenching that I have stopped playing. You could get all the attributes you need, even at usable levels, but the talent is wrong and also it's a passive not an active, so that is trash. Or you get a piece that has the talent and a great roll on one attribute so all you need to do is change the other attribute...but it's a Blue when you want Red so you can't make it what you want.

The loot system is so broken the game hasn't become boring, it's become depressing because you know what you want is out there but a person can only loot so many times before the next yellow drop doesn't become an expectation of a hope that your build will get better, it becomes a reminder of why it just isn't worth playing the game anymore.

Yes I have builds that can do any content. But that doesn't mean I want to play the way I am playing, or that I don't see a way to get better and knowing I have almost no chance whatsoever to get the piece I want ruins my enjoyment of the game.

Merphee
09-09-2019, 04:45 PM
FWIW I don't think targeted grinding is a solution, there is very specific gear sets that people are interested in and I don't want to see Lex 2.0...

I think the devs have sympathized with not wanting to create a Lexington 2.0 with the BTSU gloves. Although I didn't mind the Lexington grind, moving forward with not recreating it in Division 2 was a change for the better.

However, because high ends were approached like gear sets in Division 2, we have to travel through a sea of brands in order to gain a second or even third stage of a specific brand set. Consider targeted grinding for brand sets like global events were to classified gear. Global events mediated the 1% drop rate of classified (or whatever the percent was.) And, because there are 16 brand sets, one piece of one brand set could be equated to a 1% classified drop, despite high ends having an obviously higher drop rate.

The cons of targeted grinding could become more alarming if it's not executed properly, a la Lexington. I think a goal now is trying to find a good execution path to avoid a Lexington.

MutantCowboy x
09-10-2019, 01:18 AM
The thing I love about online RPG looter shooters is the gloating and showing off. Maybe it is silly to some but it really keeps me interested and gives a competitive feeling to even PVE. Which I feel is needed in a game that requires so much repetitive mission grinding. If I am not getting anything better for playing super difficult content or only getting a slightly higher chance the game might as well be single player as far as I am concerned, because it just lacks the ability to hold my interest. Unfortunately it appears the direction that the developers want for the game does not coincide with what I expect from an online game. I will watch for the updates and whatever comes from the ETF, but as it stands the game feels far worse than anytime I had in the original. I could grind Lex dozens of times a day for the vest. I can barely make it through a mission before feeling like I just popped some cold and flu tabs. The systems just feel so bad to me that I have serious doubts enough work can be done to make them fun.

I am going to finish playing through Remnant from the ashes, which actually makes co-op fun, and then reactivate my World of Warcraft account for some classic action. Really a shame that I have not found a game that feels as rewarding as WOW in 15 years. I am not even a guild raider type, but the game seriously provides thousands of hours of entertainment (even for solo players). I have tons of things to do that I never even got to when the game was new.

DemizeFPS
09-10-2019, 09:40 PM
Can we get this thread stickied for crying out loud? :rolleyes:

DemizeFPS
09-10-2019, 09:56 PM
The thing I love about online RPG looter shooters is the gloating and showing off. Maybe it is silly to some but it really keeps me interested and gives a competitive feeling to even PVE. Which I feel is needed in a game that requires so much repetitive mission grinding. If I am not getting anything better for playing super difficult content or only getting a slightly higher chance the game might as well be single player as far as I am concerned, because it just lacks the ability to hold my interest. Unfortunately it appears the direction that the developers want for the game does not coincide with what I expect from an online game. I will watch for the updates and whatever comes from the ETF, but as it stands the game feels far worse than anytime I had in the original. I could grind Lex dozens of times a day for the vest. I can barely make it through a mission before feeling like I just popped some cold and flu tabs. The systems just feel so bad to me that I have serious doubts enough work can be done to make them fun.

I am going to finish playing through Remnant from the ashes, which actually makes co-op fun, and then reactivate my World of Warcraft account for some classic action. Really a shame that I have not found a game that feels as rewarding as WOW in 15 years. I am not even a guild raider type, but the game seriously provides thousands of hours of entertainment (even for solo players). I have tons of things to do that I never even got to when the game was new.

I miss the attraction to being able to stand in a sandbox, proclaim yourself the king, and be able to take on any challengers for all to see. (TD1 Dark Zone)

Merphee
09-10-2019, 10:09 PM
Can we get this thread stickied for crying out loud? :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

Honestly, I think the OP has started to lose its steam. I think it held power because of the window of time in which I posted it in, which was almost immediately after they publically asked for feedback on specific topics, and then went on vacation the following week.

Bambihunter71
09-10-2019, 10:16 PM
I am going to finish playing through Remnant from the ashes, which actually makes co-op fun, and then reactivate my World of Warcraft account for some classic action. Really a shame that I have not found a game that feels as rewarding as WOW in 15 years. I am not even a guild raider type, but the game seriously provides thousands of hours of entertainment (even for solo players). I have tons of things to do that I never even got to when the game was new.

Possible solution to your present gaming blues comes out on the 13th and is in a similar genre. I know I will be on it. I'll probably still do my daily crafting and combat on all 4 characters in TD1, at least for a little bit. If BL3 is even close to what I am hoping it is, we'll see if I ever look back at TD2. 3k+ hours in TD1, ~65 hours in TD2. That probably says it all.

SevenNVD
09-10-2019, 10:48 PM
:rolleyes:

Honestly, I think the OP has started to lose its steam.
Then it's our job to keep the attention on it.



I think it held power because of the window of time in which I posted it in, which was almost immediately after they publically asked for feedback on specific topics, and then went on vacation the following week.


I still have high hopes, but not counting on anything.

Some fora I'm on have end of year trophies for best posts, best member, most interesting discussion, etc

If this forum would have that, I would nominate your OP for 2019 best post.

MutantCowboy x
09-11-2019, 03:22 AM
Possible solution to your present gaming blues comes out on the 13th and is in a similar genre. I know I will be on it. I'll probably still do my daily crafting and combat on all 4 characters in TD1, at least for a little bit. If BL3 is even close to what I am hoping it is, we'll see if I ever look back at TD2. 3k+ hours in TD1, ~65 hours in TD2. That probably says it all.

The Borderlands series is so odd to me. I really enjoy the dialogue and the humor, but I cant stand actually playing the games. I must admit I am a bit of an "elitist" and into "hardcore" style games which maybe why I don't enjoy the game, it just feels too arcade. Also I have not really been able to enjoy single player games for a many years now. I like the online universe too much.... even though I play solo 80% of the time.... go figure.

Merphee
09-11-2019, 04:52 PM
,
The cons of targeted grinding could become more alarming if it's not executed properly, a la Lexington. I think a goal now is trying to find a good execution path to avoid a Lexington.

:)

Like I said, it was all about the execution.

xcel30
09-11-2019, 05:09 PM
Well the change to loot being varied as well as more readily approachable is nice (brands will now have gears in all 6 slots, except for 5-11, as well gear sets being part of the regular loot drop, including part of the raid), with the changes to targeted loot makes so you getting what you want is better, the issue now is only making it so gear is good now. Named items will now also be more powerful and have some degree of uniqueness to them (buffed version of specific talents will always roll with them) as well being more uncommon rewards that will appear in harder content, so that also fixes a bit of that.

Merphee
09-11-2019, 05:21 PM
There are still some concerns, like if purple gear still drops in wT5. :rolleyes:

xcel30
09-11-2019, 05:44 PM
There are still some concerns, like if purple gear still drops in wT5. :rolleyes:

I mean just because they made getting loot and building how you want better, doesn't mean that the items will actually be good

Merphee
09-11-2019, 05:49 PM
Yes, loot quality is still a concern, I have not denied that.

toxicFrag
09-11-2019, 06:01 PM
Yes, loot quality is still a concern, I have not denied that.
It's not a concern, it's major problem. All those coming-soon-changes (targeted loot, etc.) are just crutches for broken loot system.
Couple of examples:
1. I have Gila mask with 499GS, 23k armor, 10k+ health, hard hitting and 45% DTE I rolled on it. I got this mask in TU2 from a loot box in open world.
And after all those heroic missions, raids, crafting etc. I still did not get any even-slightly-better Gila mask. (or even similar one I can put on my second character that I do not need to move it via the stash)
2. Max DTE on a mask is 55%. For all those many hundred hours of playing TD2 I got only one mask with 45% DTE. All other masks were below 39%.

Merphee
09-11-2019, 06:10 PM
It's not a concern, it's major problem. All those coming-soon-changes (targeted loot, etc.) are just crutches for broken loot system.
Couple of examples:
1. I have Gila mask with 499GS, 23k armor, 10k+ health, hard hitting and 45% DTE I rolled on it. I got this mask in TU2 from a loot box in open world.
And after all those heroic missions, raids, crafting etc. I still did not get any even-slightly-better Gila mask. (or even similar one I can put on my second character that I do not need to move it via the stash)
2. Max DTE on a mask is 55%. For all those many hundred hours of playing TD2 I got only one mask with 45% DTE. All other masks were below 39%.

Yes. I am completely aware of the game's density system. Even spoke about it in the OP. As I've said in another thread, we can only hope that one of the changes on the PTS that "wasn't discussed on the SOTG" is one regarding the density system.

If not, spam the PTS forum until the devs submit. Now, you might get banned for spamming it, but at least I'll get banned with you. :)

Uhnomuhlee
09-11-2019, 06:15 PM
:rolleyes:

Honestly, I think the OP has started to lose its steam. I think it held power because of the window of time in which I posted it in, which was almost immediately after they publically asked for feedback on specific topics, and then went on vacation the following week.

You're silly :)

AngelF1re1964
09-11-2019, 09:32 PM
Wow! What a great job you did. That sums it all up And I wanna play your version of this game.

Merphee
09-11-2019, 10:07 PM
Wow! What a great job you did. That sums it all up And I wanna play your version of this game.

As do I.

They've revealed targeted grinding and some recalibration station stuff today (one thing is missing, though). As for everything else, like bringing back incursions and Settlement upgrade uses, we'll have to wait for the third planned SOTG. :)

D-Y-N-4-M-O
09-11-2019, 11:40 PM
I'm just popping in here to say a big thanks to Merphee and the all the guys and gals in the community for the feedback and discussions put forward.

We're finally getting somewhere. Cheers!

MutantCowboy x
09-11-2019, 11:58 PM
As do I.

They've revealed targeted grinding and some recalibration station stuff today (one thing is missing, though). As for everything else, like bringing back incursions and Settlement upgrade uses, we'll have to wait for the third planned SOTG. :)

Yes, we need to wait.... I hope it is mind blowing. At this point it really needs to be. I think what they talked about today are good common sense, slightly casualized quality of life improvements. They might make the endgame more grind friendly but beyond that.... If the player base is as low as I currently suspect it is, we really need to see some F'ing WOW factor here soon. I mean there is nothing in the game that even makes these changes needed to me. QoL is good when you have a good base, so what the game really needs to focus on is more game not making everything easier. Besides the LZ being improved I really struggle to find anything actually improved over the Division 1. The Skill mod system, but more specifically the lack of skill power playing a more direct role in the game, has been an issue since day one. The lack of any actual NEEDED role/skill/resistance etc may sound great to players who just want to do whatever, but to players like me it is a waste of potential and leads to the extremly limited mechanics that make this game a snoozefest. Almost every facet of the game feels like it came from a focus group procedural generator to ensure the most generic forms of everything. I don't know how many times I have said this but the first time fighting Col. Bliss was the closest thing I have seen in this series to a true boss experience. It might not have been epic, but it could have been. If they would actually invest their efforts into making the gameplay fun and not worrying about blue prints in the DZ being annoying to some players, how the DZ is too rough on farmers, or how incursions/raids are evil because the might lock some loot. We might have something that actually works.

I don't watch the quartering much, but a new video he released this week, i think, he was talking about video game censorship. At one point he was wondering what happened to the gaming community, and he made the comment about how gamers use to consider themselves the rebels and that gaming was something we did to "stick it to the man" basically wondering how we got to the point that many want games to white wash history, or be inclusive just for the sake of being inclusive.

Well the same goes for how a game actually plays in my book. If you are afraid to make a good work, that being a novel, invention, art, or in this case video game, and must try and go this middle ground avoiding landmines you are doomed and spineless. What great anything in the history of mankind has ever done that. I don't know of anything like that, most everything that succeeded or we think of now as classic was offensive or revolting to many when they were conceived. Great works are considered great because of the timeless controversy they contained. They are not this gray-area mush we accept today.

Merphee
09-12-2019, 12:16 AM
Yes, we need to wait.... I hope it is mind blowing. At this point it really needs to be. I think what they talked about today are good common sense, slightly casualized quality of life improvements. They might make the endgame more grind friendly but beyond that.... If the player base is as low as I currently suspect it is, we really need to see some F'ing WOW factor here soon. I mean there is nothing in the game that even makes these changes needed to me. QoL is good when you have a good base, so what the game really needs to focus on is more game not making everything easier. Besides the LZ being improved I really struggle to find anything actually improved over the Division 1. The Skill mod system, but more specifically the lack of skill power playing a more direct role in the game, has been an issue since day one. The lack of any actual NEEDED role/skill/resistance etc may sound great to players who just want to do whatever, but to players like me it is a waste of potential and leads to the extremly limited mechanics that make this game a snoozefest. Almost every facet of the game feels like it came from a focus group procedural generator to ensure the most generic forms of everything. I don't know how many times I have said this but the first time fighting Col. Bliss was the closest thing I have seen in this series to a true boss experience. It might not have been epic, but it could have been. If they would actually invest their efforts into making the gameplay fun and not worrying about blue prints in the DZ being annoying to some players, how the DZ is too rough on farmers, or how incursions/raids are evil because the might lock some loot. We might have something that actually works.

I don't watch the quartering much, but a new video he released this week, i think, he was talking about video game censorship. At one point he was wondering what happened to the gaming community, and he made the comment about how gamers use to consider themselves the rebels and that gaming was something we did to "stick it to the man" basically wondering how we got to the point that many want games to white wash history, or be inclusive just for the sake of being inclusive.

Well the same goes for how a game actually plays in my book. If you are afraid to make a good work, that being a novel, invention, art, or in this case video game, and must try and go this middle ground avoiding landmines you are doomed and spineless. What great anything in the history of mankind has ever done that. I don't know of anything like that, most everything that succeeded or we think of now as classic was offensive or revolting to many when they were conceived. Great works are considered great because of the timeless controversy they contained. They are not this gray-area mush we accept today.

Yeah. Division 2 is now in a spot where it needs more "Destinations", and I don't just mean more main missions.

The changes shown today only strengthen the foundation of the game (with some changes yet to be seen), but now we need those rooms built to take those things we've acquired thanks to the improved foundation.

Right now, we only have the one raid and Kenly college.

DemizeFPS
11-05-2019, 04:58 AM
What happens next?

Legoguru2000
11-24-2019, 09:25 PM
Well said

Merphee
11-24-2019, 09:45 PM
Wow, I haven't seen this thread in a good while.

As I look over it, there are a couple of things that are still relevant. Loot quality issues for one, mod slots on gear, division credits, settlement upgrade uses and the need for incursions to return.

Loot quality: pretty self explanatory
Mod slots on gear: creates duplicates of gear variants for no legitimate reason
Division credits: We could buy bounties on the spot, or be used with vendors if they receive buffs for what they sell
Settlement upgrade uses: could become alternative ways to obtain high quality gear, crafting materials, or division credits via special projects
Incursions: there's a gap in end game content that can be filled with incursions

Shipp71
11-24-2019, 09:51 PM
What happens next? The game continues to die till it's time to sell Year Pass 2 then they frantically try to make it look like they're doing all kinds of fixes to dupe us into buying it. I'll pass on your next pass. I play Div 2 about an hour a week after your Breakpoint fiasco. Time to fire your CEO and get some leadership that understands a gaming company sells games. A great company sells great games and makes even more money.

Riflemania
11-25-2019, 12:54 AM
Like i have said in many posts, Targeted loot sounded great but has been implemented in the game very badly, yet another day with the same problem....

Constitution Hall = Fenris Group AB

All chest pieces was: Harnesk Armor

Pretty much 90% of the loot was Harnesk Armor, the rest was a mix of bad quality loot.

Previous 4 days from another post:

I have been farming for Gila Holster for three days, doing area Gila targeted loot and holster targeted loot and not a single Gila holster, yesterday my friend joined me to farm Gila gear and he got non stop holsters and i got none again.


It's hardly targeted loot, TU6 for me ruined this game, broken turret, broken seekers, broken loot system.

TU6 sounded great but the end result is horrendous.

YodaMan 3D
11-25-2019, 01:08 AM
I have been trying to get my Raid and PvP builds back since the update. Drops are lousy and the rolls are even worse. Yesterday I went looking for named items in the DZ, I spent hours in there with my SB. Knowing what I was in for and came out with nothing to keep and I was able to extract lots without much effort or trouble.

They need to bump the numbers that makes farming fun and not a punishment.

IVIORTON
11-25-2019, 01:22 AM
Farming is a punishment... and the two recalibration will more than likely never get implemented. I am almost at the end of what I can take. The PR routine of look at how hard it is... well why was D1 better? Why did they drift so far away from mechanics that made D1 with all of it flaws FAR more superior game?

They hot patch things like EB is discovery mode in a fews days. Yet it takes 2 months to fix an armor glitch. I could care less at this point.

YodaMan 3D
11-25-2019, 01:32 AM
Farming is a punishment... and the two recalibration will more than likely never get implemented. I am almost at the end of what I can take. The PR routine of look at how hard it is... well why was D1 better? Why did they drift so far away from mechanics that made D1 with all of it flaws FAR more superior game?

They hot patch things like EB is discovery mode in a fews days. Yet it takes 2 months to fix an armor glitch. I could care less at this point.

They have always been able to "hot fix" things that pleases us, but have issues fixing anything that doesn't.

DemizeFPS
11-25-2019, 06:53 AM
Like i have said in many posts, Targeted loot sounded great but has been implemented in the game very badly, yet another day with the same problem....

Constitution Hall = Fenris Group AB

All chest pieces was: Harnesk Armor

Pretty much 90% of the loot was Harnesk Armor, the rest was a mix of bad quality loot.

Previous 4 days from another post:

I have been farming for Gila Holster for three days, doing area Gila targeted loot and holster targeted loot and not a single Gila holster, yesterday my friend joined me to farm Gila gear and he got non stop holsters and i got none again.


It's hardly targeted loot, TU6 for me ruined this game, broken turret, broken seekers, broken loot system.

TU6 sounded great but the end result is horrendous.

It always good concepts, bad executions.
Targeted looting was a good addition to the game. The problem is that nothing was done about loot quality.
Maybe they are addressing Loot quality is the next title update.

DemizeFPS
11-25-2019, 07:00 AM
Wow, I haven't seen this thread in a good while.

As I look over it, there are a couple of things that are still relevant. Loot quality issues for one, mod slots on gear, division credits, settlement upgrade uses and the need for incursions to return.

Loot quality: pretty self explanatory
Mod slots on gear: creates duplicates of gear variants for no legitimate reason
Division credits: We could buy bounties on the spot, or be used with vendors if they receive buffs for what they sell
Settlement upgrade uses: could become alternative ways to obtain high quality gear, crafting materials, or division credits via special projects
Incursions: there's a gap in end game content that can be filled with incursions

I would rather see a legendary mode for strongholds and story mission that be similar to "incursions"
We need more pinnacle activities that reword pinnacle gear ( Loot with high stats)
Operation Dark Hours Raid needs some love. It needs to be more rewarding for the time investment. Loot drops should drop with high rolls. It's supposed to be a pinnacle activity.
I would like to see another difficulty being added with different mechanics for each raid encounter with raid challenges that offer gear with high rolls. Add raid gear and weapons that have unique buffs for the raid.

Merphee
11-25-2019, 07:20 AM
I rather see legendary mode back maybe for strongholds that be like "incursions" and some story missions.
We need more pinnacle activities that reword pinnacle gear ( Loot with high stats)
Operation Dark Hours Raid needs some love. It needs to be more rewarding for the time investment. Loot drops should drop with high rolls. It's suppose to be a pinnacle activity.
I would like to see another difficulty being added with different mechanics for each raid encounter with raid challenges that offer gear with high rolls. Add raid gear and weapons that have unique buffs for the raid.

The thing about adding a new difficulty to an existing activity is that you can't really craft new encounters that way, especially if you're using the same enemies.

I don't think it's enough to just bump up health and damage of NPCs to try to finesse replayability. Now, Division 1 Legendary, I think it worked because you were pretty much fighting Hunter AI, but Hunters weren't used, probably because of some marketing thing. So even though their health and damage was upped, you weren't fighting LMB. The AI was what made Legendary mission replayable imo, despite existing in already used environments.

I think you just gotta craft an exclusive experience that you just can't get anywhere else in the game for replayability, including its rewards. Legendary missions were a "constant encounter with Hunters", keyword: constant, which is something that you can't get anywhere else in the game.

That's why I think incursions should return. They'd be shorter raids like activities, or heroic only missions with mechanics that is matchmake-able, but it wouldn't just be a mission with NPCs that have increased health and damage for the sake of trying to make it difficult.

Kenly college could've had replayability, but its rewards were poor. After gaining the Diamondback, I had no reason to return to Kenly college. But, they can't buff rewards until they change how quality works in the game.

Riflemania
11-25-2019, 08:34 AM
It always good concepts, bad executions.
Targeted looting was a good addition to the game. The problem is that nothing was done about loot quality.
Maybe they are addressing Loot quality is the next title update.

My main problem with the game is targeting specific loot, i have been after a Fenris Stridsväst Combat Vest due to it's reds and all i keep getting is Harnesk Armor with the occasional Förstärkt Breastplate, same goes for Gila Guard Jackrabbit Holster, farmed it like crazy and not a single one dropped for me over three days but loads dropped for my friend when he joined me on the fourth day.

Trying to get a Clutch build (just four blues) for me is becoming impossible.

And only being able to change 1 x Attribute or 1 x Talent makes me end up dismantling most if not all gear at the end of the night.

Don't get me started on D&H mask and backpack:eek::nonchalance:

DemizeFPS
11-25-2019, 10:11 AM
The thing about adding a new difficulty to an existing activity is that you can't really craft new encounters that way, especially if you're using the same enemies.

I don't think it's enough to just bump up health and damage of NPCs to try to finesse replayability. Now, Division 1 Legendary, I think it worked because you were pretty much fighting Hunter AI, but Hunters weren't used, probably because of some marketing thing. So even though their health and damage was upped, you weren't fighting LMB. The AI was what made Legendary mission replayable imo, despite existing in already used environments.

I think you just gotta craft an exclusive experience that you just can't get anywhere else in the game for replayability, including its rewards. Legendary missions were a "constant encounter with Hunters", keyword: constant, which is something that you can't get anywhere else in the game.

That's why I think incursions should return. They'd be shorter raids like activities, or heroic only missions with mechanics that is matchmake-able, but it wouldn't just be a mission with NPCs that have increased health and damage for the sake of trying to make it difficult.

Kenly college could've had replayability, but its rewards were poor. After gaining the Diamondback, I had no reason to return to Kenly college. But, they can't buff rewards until they change how quality works in the game.

I disagree.
It has been done in Destiny 1 and Destiny 2. Different difficulties for the raid bought new encounters (Hard mode and Prestige). It can be done but it comes down to the willingness of the developers imo. If you look at resistance, they did a good job crafting encounters with each difficulty.

I agree it's not enough to bump up health and damage of NPCs to try to finesse replayability. I just don't see how can we have replayable content without having underground, survival, incursions, or resistance in the game. Those were stapled activities.

AI can be tuned though, Again, it comes down to the willingness of the developers to push players out of their comfort zone. In my opinion, this game is way too easy. Everything is boring. Adding hunters to existing activities would make those activities exciting.

I think existing content like strongholds can be overhauled to be like incursions. Tidal Basin feels like an incursion because it has that mechanic of disabling Missile launchers. If they add other mechanics to other strongholds with better rewards, the experience would be better. I think the developers would be willing to reuse assets to save time and money.

I would love a dungeon type activity in this game. I think it would be a unique experience for everyone. Something different. In my opinion. this game needs better end game content with changes to loot quality.

DemizeFPS
11-25-2019, 01:03 PM
My main problem with the game is targeting specific loot, i have been after a Fenris Stridsväst Combat Vest due to it's reds and all i keep getting is Harnesk Armor with the occasional Förstärkt Breastplate, same goes for Gila Guard Jackrabbit Holster, farmed it like crazy and not a single one dropped for me over three days but loads dropped for my friend when he joined me on the fourth day.

Trying to get a Clutch build (just four blues) for me is becoming impossible.

And only being able to change 1 x Attribute or 1 x Talent makes me end up dismantling most if not all gear at the end of the night.

Don't get me started on D&H mask and backpack:eek::nonchalance:


I hear ya.
Not sure why the ability to reroll two stats attributes did not come with TU6.
Hopefully, we get something about loot quality.
I think they reconsider the variants between brand sets.

F.i.x.e.r
11-25-2019, 02:55 PM
Apart from the occasional "look see" I will not be back until or unless they fix the loot/recal/rng in this game. The grind in TD1 was never this bad even in it's early days.