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XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 05:40 PM
Please Oleg and UBI, i have the rest of the week off, release the PATCH. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 05:40 PM
Please Oleg and UBI, i have the rest of the week off, release the PATCH. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 05:50 PM
it will be released when its finished /i/smilies/16x16_robot-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 05:50 PM
There are two choices:

1. Patch is released, you can play, and the game remains buggy
2. Patch is delayed, you can't play, and all the bugs and mishaps are ironed away.

Needless to say, option #2 is more preferrable, however, I understand your dilemma. How about going inline skating while you're on holiday ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

-Celorfie

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 07:11 PM
Option 3, which I can absolutely guarantee you to be the case:

Patch is released, and, due to UBI/1Cs quite bizarre testing methodology, contains dozens of buglets which will take another several months, at least, to nail down.

Closed, big-release patch testing is simply the stupidest possible way in which to do this. John Carmack elaborated on this around the time of Quake 2's release, when id software tried the one-big-patch methodology and quickly changed their minds when they discovered it simply doesn't work - at least not to the gaming publics satisfaction.

By far the most effective method for testing any software [outside of gigantic or mission critical systems] is to release early, and often, while additionally providing a 'stable' version which is usually several revisions behind. Every single software vendor with their head screwed on right uses this method.

I'm totally mystified as to why the beta builds aren't made public. All this is doing is denying them feedback on what still doesn't work. People are discovering things they feel are wrong and are unable to report them in any public fasion. As much as I respect Oleg and the rest of the team, the way they handle patching their products is utterly brain dead. The lesson they should've gotten from the last 5 major patches, all with major bugs included right to the end, hasn't sunk in. Somehow.

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 09:43 PM
I agree


Kalo

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 10:01 PM
They get too much BS to go with the good feedback, would spend more time sifting data than fixing problems at least for some of the team... those with enough skill and time to decide good from bad.

Economics: One patch and say that's it, you don't end up stuck servicing a product free forever (yes, it only seems that way) trying the impossible to make everyone happy.

Hopefully the fixes will take out all but the small objections. There will always be objections.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 10:09 PM
I disagree Gunz

This user community is pretty tight and would quickly report bugs which fixing would be caught.

Part of creating a good product is sifting through user-feedback data.


Carmack did a great job and his team should be development

S!
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XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 10:36 PM
I don't want the patch anymore.... have joined the dark side of the force. MS CFS3. MUAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!


AHHHHHHHH bad dream... sorry /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<center>

http://www.webforum.nu/member/Fornixx/190.JPG</p>
<center>

I'm not scared of dying, I just don't want to</p>

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 12:05 AM
Fornixx wrote:
- I don't want the patch anymore.... have joined the
- dark side of the force. MS CFS3. MUAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!

Good job your joking Fornixx, or we'd interpret that as the first signs of a disorder know as "pre-patch insanity". /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Both arguments here have merit. If they release it and let the public at large test it they then have mountains of spam to sort, often on points already raised (as people can't be bothered to look beyond page one of the forum and just repeat things again and again). But it also exposes the program to multiple combinations of machines and setups that they probably can't replicate in closed testing.

Also, that makes "bug" reporting susceptible to personal views. If you get three responses on, say, a P-51, you might get:
"it's crap, I can't shoot anything down with it".
"it's too good, I can't beat it".
"it's just right, thank you Oleg".
Now, put them in foreign languages, with different experiences, equipment, expectations and opposition and you end up with a huge mess of messages, many mutually exclusive/poles apart.

If you only test in-house you control the environment, and less buggy programs = better credibility which = sales. But you are limited to a small section of input/feedback, which leaves a large possibility for missing things. Also, releasing multiple patches makes things look buggy and troublesome, and causes Server Operators to rip their hair out as they (from their POV) are always having to keep taking their system down and amend it.

So Oleg is compromising. Big patch now, fixes based on user feedback included in patch/free-addon later.

So, lets all give Oleg good detailed feedback (not spam like "Oleg your game sucks") and by the time the addon issue comes around we'll all be happy and they can concentrate on producing high quality software. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

Message Edited on 07/16/0312:48AM by Owl_NZ

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 12:12 AM
Jaws2002 wrote:
- Please Oleg and UBI, i have the rest of the week
- off, release the PATCH. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
-
-

It's not like we don't have a pretty damn good sim to fly in the meantime. I don't remember people being this antzy before the release of FB http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Besides--even though the game has a few bugs--I'm anticipating the opportunity to fly more planes more than I am for the patch.

In the meantime, make a mission, make a skin. The patch will be out soon enough.

--------------------------------
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one.

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 01:34 AM
Oh don't get me wrong, I play it the way it is and i have a good time, but i fly 9 out of 10 times a FW 190.The way is now is kind of unfair. The "A" models fly like a 2/4, the Dora is nice but is hard to hit something with it and the F8 is good but too slow. Any way, i go find a server on the HL and hit somebody in the back of the head with my "2/4".

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 01:45 AM
oh come on oleg.. just send us the patch. no matter what, half will like it, half won't. but this waiting is killer.

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 03:38 AM
PLEAZE release the patch

look, i know that things have to be fixed, but many of us have a thirst for addon airplanes from the old CFS1 and 2 games and, well, CFS3 has a bad engine and nobody will write aircraft for it. so just humor us and give us our new pets.

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 06:06 AM
You know guys, it would really help if you say... diversified your software library, you know, buy some more games. That's how you keep from going crazy. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I haven't played FB in a long time, mostly because I got one of shortest straws, my copy's pretty unplayable. Just hang in there. You have to admit, this is pretty trivial. Just play good ol' IL-2.

----------------------------------------
Wow, I really look good on your six. Mind if I stay there?

Crabhart

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 09:59 AM
clint-ruin wrote:
- Option 3, which I can absolutely guarantee you to be
- the case:
-
- Patch is released, and, due to UBI/1Cs quite bizarre
- testing methodology, contains dozens of buglets
- which will take another several months, at least, to
- nail down.
-
- Closed, big-release patch testing is simply the
- stupidest possible way in which to do this. John
- Carmack elaborated on this around the time of Quake
- 2's release, when id software tried the
- one-big-patch methodology and quickly changed their
- minds when they discovered it simply doesn't work -
- at least not to the gaming publics satisfaction.
-
- By far the most effective method for testing any
- software [outside of gigantic or mission critical
- systems] is to release early, and often, while
- additionally providing a 'stable' version which is
- usually several revisions behind. Every single
- software vendor with their head screwed on right
- uses this method.
-
- I'm totally mystified as to why the beta builds
- aren't made public. All this is doing is denying
- them feedback on what still doesn't work. People
- are discovering things they feel are wrong and are
- unable to report them in any public fasion. As much
- as I respect Oleg and the rest of the team, the way
- they handle patching their products is utterly brain
- dead. The lesson they should've gotten from the
- last 5 major patches, all with major bugs included
- right to the end, hasn't sunk in. Somehow.


Full ack, not only Carmack has recognized this thing, most of the big companies do it this way (Epic/id etc.)

Quake Series AND UT Series (und other stuff too, like warcraft etc) where handled this way, and all of these games became extremle whell balanced and playable in a very short amount of time. The community wantet the IRC Client back in UT2k3 - one of the first little patches implemented it - voila the crowd was pleased and the bughunting could be concentrated on other stuff. Also Balancing (although a SIMULATION should not try to "balance" the planes, balancing must be done withing the mission planning (ie not to have 20 190 fly agaiunst one P 11C) is perfectet with those smaller updates. For only the worldwide community of players can find out all the stuff that evoke unbalanced gameplay (often they invent strategies that NOONE has ever dreamed about during develeopment of the game) - so it can be cured out within a little time.

Of course you should avoid releasing EXTREMLY small patches within a few days, but smaller packages that concentrate on removing 1-4 issues are a good way. For example.. some graphical glitches, fix them and release the patch for it. The chances that graphical updates produce newer glitches are extremely low.

No testing on a BIG single patch can solve ALL Problems, only a big community can spot some glitches, or misbehaviors, or simply features that they want.


Its obvious that the patch will not cure all problem, and it will be intruducing some more probs, thats nearly as guaranteed.

So there will be TONS of posts in the forum, all filled up with bug reports, or whinings, or feature suggestion, but for the sheer amount of it there will be a good chance that nobody will see what is a real bug, or what is whining, so there will be large amounts of flamewars all over, like it alwas was in the past.

If there would be smaller patches that fixes/changes/introduces only a small amount of things it would be easier to figure out if it was a good idea, or if the new features need a little more fixing/changing.. whatever.

Like now.. most of the biggest annoing bugs are known for months now, and we have to live with it for those months, the new bugs the patch WILL introduce (software NEVER can be 100% error free) will also remain for nearly half a year if those "only BIG patches" thing will remain.

The time the community waits for the new patch could have been used for bughunting new or other patches, but no, the potential of bughunting of thousends of players is ignored, the moral gets lower and lower..

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