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XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 01:09 AM
When will we have it to use in our Fighter Group?

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 01:09 AM
When will we have it to use in our Fighter Group?

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 03:44 AM
USAF_352_PZ_X wrote:
- When will we have it to use in our Fighter Group?

Some say 14 days...

Some say 336 hours...

Some say 1/2 a month...

Some say 2 weeks...

But honestly, it will be done when it is done! At which point the only question left to be answered is "Will you still care?" For example STRIKE FIGHTERS... Does anyone even give a crap anymore if they patch that POS? I lost interest about 14 days ago, ie 336 hours ago, ie 1/2 a month ago, ie about 2 weeks ago.



TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 05:52 AM
We are waiting for it in Virtual Little Walden as well, however it looks like it will be at least a month yet. But nobody seems to know, we can hope for a suprise plane in the patch upon release but more realisticly it will be in the add-on(Which is another ? mark, nobody knows if it will be free or payware). Until then we will be flying our Jugs still, which is still a very nice plane IMO.
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG

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XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 10:46 AM
Who needs a Mustang anyway ;P

It will only fit on the Berlin map, Hungarian Map, has no bases to takeoff from...

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 02:57 PM
IJG54_Nowi wrote:
- Who needs a Mustang anyway ;P
-
- It will only fit on the Berlin map, Hungarian Map,
- has no bases to takeoff from...
-
-
Umm US pilots. You know the largest consumer of the IL-2 series ;p

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 03:09 PM
don't you want to flight with the Ta 152 H, or He 162, or Tempest instead of the P51, that we have in all wwii sim (like bf109 and fw190) ? (either in Korea Sim, cf Mig Alley (F51))

Théor¨me de Treiman : "Les choses impossibles sont des choses qui, en principe, n'arrivent jamais"

http://cheznousdeux.chez.tiscali.fr/avions/sommaire.htm

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 03:17 PM
Seb86 wrote:
- don't you want to flight with the Ta 152 H, or He
- 162, or Tempest instead of the P51, that we have in
- all wwii sim (like bf109 and fw190) ? (either in
- Korea Sim, cf Mig Alley (F51))

Sure, that sounds great, but a lot of us want the P-51 more than a TA series.


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CO
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92ndFG (http://92ndFG.com)

RichardI
07-10-2003, 12:04 AM
I suspect you won't like it when you get it.

Rich

<Center>http://www.ghosts.com/images/postimages/THUNDERBOLT.jpg <Center>I've got 140 109's cornered over Berlin!

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 08:59 AM
I know I'm not making many friends here, but why do so many americans absolutly *insist* that american fighters and bombers are more important to a EASTERN front sim than everthing else?

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 09:09 AM
Because the p51 is the best fighter in the world I thought!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
I'd rather like the "Lang Nasen" or the Ta152 !! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Théor¨me de Treiman : "Les choses impossibles sont des choses qui, en principe, n'arrivent jamais"

http://cheznousdeux.chez.tiscali.fr/avions/sommaire.htm

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 09:31 AM
I don't give a rodent's behind about what front this game was designed for. I just want the maddox team to model my 3 favorite planes: P-47, P-51, P-38 and put them in their excellent sim. So far I've got the first one, with a few modifications pending, and the second one is a shoe-in with the first add-on. The third one may be a stretch, but I think in the long run it will be in the game as well. If you are from Germany or Russia you already have the best planes coming out of those respective countries. Only the Brits are really suffering but maybe they will get their Spit some day.

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 09:52 AM
Everybody wants them to put new aircrafts into this sim, granted, I'd like to see the P-51 as well but honestly, the sim takes place on the Eastern Front and include some aircrafts never seen in any sim before. In my opinion I'd rather see more from that drawer.

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 09:57 AM
VMF-214_HaVoK wrote:
-
- Umm US pilots. You know the largest consumer of the
- IL-2 series ;p


Ummm Il-2 has sold much more copies in Europe than in US. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 10:34 AM
i dont want to sound off in this thread ... aww what the Hell , of course i do .....

there is nothing else worth flying except for "" Forgotten Battles ""

i dont care about where the maps in it are based

i care about its awesome Flight Model

i want every single good WW2 Fighter in this game , even if they only served in south america or south africa

so there

btw the mustang is going to be an excellent addition to this game

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 10:43 AM
True Jippo, but who controls UBI? The US?

Don't forget who their primary market is. It's the one which got FB three-five weeks before the rest of the world was ALLOWED it. It's the one with all the internet review sites in it which people follow. It's the one that screamed "us first", then complained that they were doing beta-testing for the rest of the world....

You bag CFS, but you want to recreate it. WHY? What are you going to do if the P-51 isn't the "uber-plane" you expect it to be? Bleat and whine to Oleg that he made it wrong? Don't get your hopes up too high.

I'd rather see what we've got already made flyable. You all realise that if the US stuff planned makes it in we very likely will have an Axis vs Russia game where the Axis (in terms of unique flyable aircraft) is outnumbered by the number of unique flyable US planes, on a front where the US never served more than 1 day. Does that make sense?....(Shakes head sadly).

Yes we'd all like to fly our favourite planes, and this is the best medium to do so, but why at the expense of all the stuff that's there now which we can't use. Consider that at the moment we have unflyable 32 types, at least 20 of which are COMBAT units. When it boils down to types (not variants) you have 5 flyable German and 10 flyable Russian planes currently. With foreign a/c factored in those totals are 7 (8 with PZL-11C) and 15.

Broaden your horizons people. There are some fine non-US aircraft to fly, after all the US did not win the war by themselves (sorry if that contradicts what you were taught in school /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ).

----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 10:48 AM
Owl_NZ wrote:
- True Jippo, but who controls UBI? The US?


AFAIK it is French company.


-jippo


Ps. And I agree with you on your post.

Message Edited on 07/10/0309:51AM by Jippo01

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 11:01 AM
Thanks. Same to you and yours jippo. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Well, now might be a good time for those who want something other than an American-dominated Il-2 FB. After all, don't the US and France hate each other due to Iraq? That could help the chances of the Med no end. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 11:20 AM
Bucinda wrote:
- I don't give a rodent's behind about what front this
- game was designed for. I just want the maddox team
- to model my 3 favorite planes:

Do I get to hold mt breath until my face turns blue
until I get my favourite planes Tempest,
A20 seriea, Spitfire) in too?

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 12:44 PM
P-51 won the war.


<hr>

<p align=center style="width:100%; filter:glow[color=#33CCFF, strength=2)">

<img src=http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/bilder/willey110.jpg border=0 alt="Hier geht's zur I/JG78"> (http://www.jg78.de)

</p><font color=59626B>

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 01:01 PM
Willey wrote:
- P-51 won the war.
-

That's nice Willey. Got any proof to back that up?

Yes, we all know it made long-range escorting of US bombers possible, but one type of aircraft alone does not win a war.
Airforces, in cooperation with ground and naval forces win wars. That and/or nuclear blackmail....


----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

Message Edited on 07/11/0303:29AM by Owl_NZ

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 04:02 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
-
- VMF-214_HaVoK wrote:
--
-- Umm US pilots. You know the largest consumer of the
-- IL-2 series ;p
-
-
- Ummm Il-2 has sold much more copies in Europe than
- in US. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
-
-
--jippo
-
-
US is one country...Europe is made up of many. As for which country currently owns more copies..USA ;p

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 04:05 PM
yes for the number of copy, but in percentage of the total population in each country, is the result be the same ????

Théor¨me de Treiman : "Les choses impossibles sont des choses qui, en principe, n'arrivent jamais"

http://cheznousdeux.chez.tiscali.fr/avions/sommaire.htm

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 06:49 PM
"When I saw the Mustangs over Berlin I knew the war was lost." Hermann Goering


"Nothing difficult is ever easy"

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 07:05 PM
Why do you non Americans get so hostile over Americans wanting the P-51?

You have your planes, go fly them! We want the P-51, and will make out own missions.

As for us being disappointed with it. I doubt it. We know what the plane will do. With proper tactics and teamwork. It will get it's share of kills. Just like it did in real life.

Will the noobs fly in low turning furballs, and say it's crap? Sure they will, but who gives a crap about them?

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
This Won The War
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 07:58 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- Why do you non Americans get so hostile over
- Americans wanting the P-51?


Nope, take it!

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Btw, Do you guys think that Goering excited, cause ti was Mustangs he saw? (Phew, it's only Spitfeuers)

Guess this post was ironic, hehe

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 08:12 PM
Seb86::
- don't you want to flight with the Ta152H, or He162, or Tempest instead of P51

Cardinal25::
- Sure, that sounds great, but alot of us want P-51 more than TA series.


When, and if, Oleg releaces The Patch, will it fix the high altitude flight model? Perhaps the Noobs turning at low level will be the only ones able to boast Full Real.

EDIT:: Don't get me wrong fellas/fellattes, I am with you the whole 9 inches. I want my high altitude I~224.

http://blueprints.flightsim.ru/thumbnails/I-224_small.gif



Message Edited on 07/10/0307:23PM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 08:19 PM
- Why do you non Americans
- get so hostile over Americans
- wanting the P-51?

- You have your planes, go fly
- them! We want the P-51, and
- will make out own missions.

Because it seems arrogant that some people insist that their uber-super-god plane P-51D has to be in EVERY sim, even though it has been modelled in hundred sims already, when the sim does not even take place in the western front, and there are far more important russian planes still missing.

Not saying you are - but some obviously dont like a sim unless it has a Mustang in it. That's arrogant.

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 08:30 PM
I never asked for the P-51 until Oleg said he was doing it.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
This Won The War
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 08:43 PM
How in any way is IL2/FB dominated by US planes?? Let's count them P-39(3 versions), P-47(3 versions), and soon to be P-51(1 version). That is seven planes total out of how many?? How many Yaks, La's, Bf109's, FW-190's and so on are in the game?? Seriously what is so wrong with having the P-51 in this game?? Don't we deserve to have it too along with all of the other planes?? Until FB came out if you wanted to fly a US plane you were in the wrong game. Nothing wrong with that, but I love US planes no matter what. Germans probably love their planes, and Russians love theirs as well. I really think some people here that fight the inclusion of the Mustang or constantly bag on it are really just afraid that they will get owned by pilots who know how to fly the Mustang right once it arrives. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center> <center> www.361stvfg.com</center> (http://www.361stvfg.com</center>)

<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/CindyII.jpg> </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 08:53 PM
Eagle_361st wrote:
- How in any way is IL2/FB dominated by US planes??
- Let's count them P-39(3 versions), P-47(3 versions),
- and soon to be P-51(1 version). That is seven planes
- total out of how many??

You forgot one version of Brewster and 3 versions of P-40's. It is a bunch already. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

But on the subject matter. I think it is great that we can have a P-51, but I also think that there could have been other planes brought in instead as well. P-51 and Hungary/Berlin are a definate match, but some planes could have been in the game from 1941-1945 and/or offered a little bit different perspective.

But as I said, bring on the Stang! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 09:05 PM
Jippo01

They were all on the Eastern front, so they have as much right in the sim as a Yak. How about the 2400 P-63's that Russia got? How's that compare to the number of Ta152's?

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
This Won The War
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 09:14 PM
A Griffon Engined Spitfire would knock spots off a P-51.

He He

Hot Space

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 09:17 PM
To bad for you, that their both on the same side../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
This Won The War
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 09:19 PM
True - but it would be fun to see who would be the winner.

Hot Space

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 09:19 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- Jippo01
-
- They were all on the Eastern front, so they have
- as much right in the sim as a Yak. How about the
- 2400 P-63's that Russia got? How's that compare to
- the number of Ta152's?


Well, as I said Berlin/Hungary and P-51 are a definate match, didn't I?

It is just my personal opinion, but I don't care too much about so called superplanes like P-63, P-51, La-7, K-4 and Ta's. I would have liked to see flyable planes like Bf-110(on backorder), Blenheim, Pe-2/3, DB-3(F), A-20, Hs-123, Hs-129, Fokker D.XXI, Gladiator, M.S. 406/410, Fiat G.50, P-36, ...

I'm sure you catch the drift. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

That much more about Ta-152 and P-63, that as long as people have to argue if they either appeared or had any impact on the war in the eastfront, they really aren't all that important to me at all.



-jippo

ZG77_Nagual
07-10-2003, 09:21 PM
I'd like to remind you guys that I am the most important person here.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 09:23 PM
Don't go to IL-2Skins.com.

You will find out who the boss is there.

He He

Hot Space

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 09:44 PM
One things for sure. The P-47 and P-51 have the most skins../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
This Won The War
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 09:45 PM
Well, the P-51 mainly.

Hot Space

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 09:53 PM
Huh? 299 skins between them. Find two other planes with that many.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
This Won The War
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 09:55 PM
I don't think I could even if I tried.

Hot Space

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 10:29 PM
Willey wrote:
- P-51 won the war.

Wrong. People won the war. Soldiers. Fathers, sons, brothers, Mothers, Wives, daughters.

Pilots flew them. Mechanics are the one's responsible for every sortie.

I'm an American, and I work on American fighter jets. And I would prefer more eastern front aircraft over American ones, specifically because every WWII sim that has come out prior to IL2FB has had the P51. Variety is the spice of life. Honor those Russian and German soldiers, too.


Tim Schuster
8MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, Korea

-Defend the Dock!
-Accept Follow-on Shifts!
-Take the Fight Upstairs!

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 10:37 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- To bad for you, that their both on the same
- side.

Haven't you ever seen two 109s or Yaks fighting to the death online BuzzU?

Unfortunately, most hosts don't differentiate between plane sets on sides to create an allies v. axis environment...which is kinda sad IMHO.

Of course, there are always the captured planes! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Cheers,

<CENTER>http://home1.gte.net/vze23gyt/files/p51_jaws.jpg</CENTER><CENTER><font size="+1"><div style="width:500;color:#FF2211;fontsize:11pt;filter:shado w Blur[color=red,strength=2)">Coming soon...</div></center></font><FONT color="#59626B">[b]<center>http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/post-2-1057134794.gif</center>

Message Edited on 07/10/0306:01PM by TaZ_Attack

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 10:39 PM
I fly Coops. Not furballs../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
This Won The War
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 10:41 PM
BuzzU...you should really try furballs, that's where the aces are! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Look for a 353 server sometime and drop in and say 'hello!'. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cheers,

<CENTER>http://home1.gte.net/vze23gyt/files/p51_jaws.jpg</CENTER><CENTER><font size="+1"><div style="width:500;color:#FF2211;fontsize:11pt;filter:shado w Blur[color=red,strength=2)">Coming soon...</div></center></font><FONT color="#59626B">[b]<center>http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/post-2-1057134794.gif</center>

Message Edited on 07/10/0305:41PM by TaZ_Attack

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 10:57 PM
I did fly furballs for awhile. It was fun, but had no goal, so it got boring. I don't plan on putting the P-51 into one though. Unless it's more effective than what i'm expecting. Time will tell.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
This Won The War
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 11:03 PM
IJG54_Nowi wrote:
- I know I'm not making many friends here, but why do
- so many americans absolutly *insist* that american
- fighters and bombers are more important to a EASTERN
- front sim than everthing else?

IJG54_Nowi wrote:
Because it seems arrogant that some people insist that their uber-super-god plane P-51D has to be in EVERY sim, even though it has been modelled in hundred sims already, when the sim does not even take place in the western front, and there are far more important russian planes still missing.
Not saying you are - but some obviously dont like a sim unless it has a Mustang in it. That's arrogant.

We didnt insist on it.....we did want it from the start...who wouldnt want a plane like the P-51 in a sim of this quality, Oleg offered it to us and we accepted it with sheer joy and expectation......but let me ask you this.....say hypothetically IL2 was not IL2 but say.....a Pacific theatre sim of the same quality with no competitors to be found. Would you feel the same way if someone wanted to model say a 190...or a 109....in this "Pacific Front" sim? I bet you wouldnt say.."No thats OK it's a Pacific sim...we dont need the FW in here....you would jump at the chance to fly YOUR favorite plane in the best sim FMs available. Thats all I and most of my compatriots want. IMO it would be a major blunder to NOT include a plane like the P-51 in a sim this good...with it's online capabilities. Some of you folks who come up with that nonsense amaze me...I would think that you wouldnt care what planes were in the sim as long as they kept on coming and the quality stayed the same. Some of you guys have been groaning about stuff like cockpit spars and misplaced gunsights STILL....ad nauseum but you chide us when we are extatic about getting one of the greatest American planes of the era. You label us as arrogant and such and act like we are using our "consumer might" to twist Oleg & UBIs arm to put in the planes we want. Me..... I just want to enjoy this sim..with as much room for growth in it as I can get. If I had my way about it over the next two years 90% of the military aircraft made between 1937 and 1949 would be in here with new scenery releases and 5 or six planes with every add on.





<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

Message Edited on 07/12/0308:49PM by Bearcat99

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 11:13 PM
To answer thos who think the P51 has no relavence to FB.

We know the KI84 Late War Japanese fighter is being modeled for FB, for when Russia declared War on Japan late 45 War Period.
Well they had P51s based on Okinawa that would have tangled with the KI84.
Besides it enables me to create Scenarios for the Northern Pacific Area around Japan for the P51 Versus Ki84, as we have the South Pacific Scenarios set in the New Guinea area using the Kuban Map already, for the Zero.

The P51 Mustang and Japanese fighters where still in air combat months after Germany was defeated and the Luftwaffe ceased to exist.

S!



Message Edited on 07/10/0310:25PM by Artic_Wulf

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 12:52 AM
Jippo01 wrote:
-
- Eagle_361st wrote:
-- How in any way is IL2/FB dominated by US planes??
-- Let's count them P-39(3 versions), P-47(3 versions),
-- and soon to be P-51(1 version). That is seven planes
-- total out of how many??
-
- You forgot one version of Brewster and 3 versions of
- P-40's. It is a bunch already.

Oops your right I forgot the P-40 and the Brewster, still add that up and you 11 different planes from the US mostly just variants of 4 planes. And still that doesn't hold a candle to the variants of just the Bf-109 and FW 190. We only want the planes we love too and for them to be moddeled as close to RL as Oleg has done. And I think it is better now that we get all of these planes, because when the next sim comes out it will have almost every combat plane in WWII availiable in it.
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG

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XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 07:38 AM
I just want the P-51 because it looks cool!
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.352ndfightergroup.com/shared_art/352_487.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 08:04 AM
Seb86 wrote:
- Because the p51 is the best fighter in the world I
- thought!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
- I'd rather like the "Lang Nasen" or the Ta152 !!
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-


That's a pretty bold statement. No one plane 'won' the war at all, if anything came close it would have been a combination of the Spitfire, Hurricane & Lancaster because if it weren't for them Britain would have been in serious trouble and the US wouldn't have had a staging post. Also don't forget that the Mustang only became as good as it did because they stuck a Merlin engine in it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Personally, I will be happy with whatever is in the patch - I would much rather see a Spit than a Mustang tho, I just hope that we see one soon and that a. It _sounds_ like a Spitfire (sends shivers down my spine) and b. that it has a good flight model.

The sound of poetry:
http://www.world-data-systems.com/lomac/Merlin1.wav

/m

http://www.world-data-systems.com/lomac/pirhana.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 08:13 AM
So what if the game is based on the eastern front for now? I'm sure it's easy to build a Berlin map and anyways fun is fun and the P-51 would add fun to the game.
P.S What happened to the poor Japanese planes? We do need some paper planes for the American planes to chew on.
And my favorite plane is the F4U-4 Corsair which was the second fastest prop plane of WW2 and has a great climb rate.
http://www.acepilots.com/planes/specs.html
I really wish they do make a Pacific Theatre version someday. It would be cool flying a B-29 Super Fortress with a nuke MUHAHAHA(compare that with a 5K kilogram bomb with the Pe-8).

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 09:13 AM
I hate to burst your bubble there Flying_Merkava, but the Japanese had some impressive kit at the end. The Frank was lethal in the right hands, and wasn't a torch like so many other under-armoured Japanese planes, the Zero replacement (A7M?) and B7A were good too. Unfortunately by the time they arrived the war was lost, the best pilots were gone, and they had no fuel. Same story as the Germans unfortunately, Didn't get new planes and planning was for a short war, not the long drawn-out one they had instead....

I'd like to see the Corsair if we did get a Pacific theatre one. We already have the stuff for the South-East Asia (Zero, Buffalo, Hurricane, P-40 (for the AVG), P-47),so who knows. Certainly the South-East Asia front is overdue for a flightsim.



----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 10:22 PM
"Unfortunately by the time they arrived the
- war was lost, the best pilots were gone, and they
- had no fuel. Same story as the Germans
- unfortunately"
Actually I believe that was very fortunate for us!
And the American planes were still faster, had better firepower, and armor. The best Jap fighter was the Ki-84 which was still slower than the latest American fighters in al fronts. It basicaly was better than the zero. It also had severe engine problems. With the right tactics (bnz) it can be beaten. So sorry to burst your buble.

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 11:02 PM
WUAF_Badsight wrote:
-
- i dont want to sound off in this thread ... aww
- what the Hell , of course i do .....
-
-
- there is nothing else worth flying except for ""
- Forgotten Battles ""
-
- i dont care about where the maps in it are based
-
- i care about its awesome Flight Model
-
- i want every single good WW2 Fighter in this game ,
- even if they only served in south america or south
- africa
-
- so there
-
- btw the mustang is going to be an excellent addition
- to this game
-
-


I agree completely. All the other WWII sims pretty much suck compared to FB. I really LOVE the planes that are already in the sim because they've all been so under-represented in all the other sims. But I WOULD like to see a few of the major US, Brit, and Japanese planes added - JUST because I don't want to use another sim just to fly them.

BUT, I have my P-40s and P-39s so I won't complain TOO loudly. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

-Bill

XyZspineZyX
07-12-2003, 01:38 AM
IJG54_Nowi wrote:
-- Why do you non Americans
-- get so hostile over Americans
-- wanting the P-51?
-
-- You have your planes, go fly
-- them! We want the P-51, and
-- will make out own missions.
-
- Because it seems arrogant that some people insist
- that their uber-super-god plane P-51D has to be in
- EVERY sim, even though it has been modelled in
- hundred sims already, when the sim does not even
- take place in the western front, and there are far
- more important russian planes still missing.
-
- Not saying you are - but some obviously dont like a
- sim unless it has a Mustang in it. That's arrogant.
-
-

Van Elvis Wrote: I Have An answer to why we want the P-51 in this sim. You said it had been modelled in a hundred sims already, but those simms were not created by Oleg. They had bad FM. Why do you want to fly your planes in THIS SIM? BECAUSE THIS SIM IS THE BEST OF THE BEST. Flying the P-51 is like flying any other plane in other sims. We want to see what it really performs like (good or bad).

XyZspineZyX
07-12-2003, 01:48 AM
I want to fly them all. Every plane of the war. I dont care what front east, west, Pacific, I dont care what plane it is if it had wings and an engine and some guns or bombs I want to fly it. Heck if some one modled it I would fly a glider. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-12-2003, 01:50 AM
bah........p-51 owns j00 and yer little dog too..........it also wun the war for the United States.
bahah



http://www.aviatorart.com/bailey/images/b-p51.jpg

http://roygrinnell.com/images/plane02m.jpg

http://www.multied.com/aviation/photos/p51.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-12-2003, 02:13 AM
Well unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your POV I guess /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) Flying_Merkava we'll never know what might have happened. By that stage the Allies were winning and even if the Japanese got a few Kokutai? operational they'd just be drowned out by sheer weight of numbers of US and Commonwealth planes.

Had a quick look and found this paragraph about the Ki-84: "With better manoeuvrability and climb rate than the redoubtable North American P-51H Mustang and P-47N Thunderbolt operating in the Pacific zone, it was encountered in all operational theatres and was effective at all altitudes". Certainly you're right in that it was 45 mph slower, but had 2 x 12.7mm MG and 2 x 20mm cannon, so it would've hurt if it hit you. Trouble was, by 1944 Battle of Leyte the IJN & IJA were screwed.

BTW I had no bubble to burst. The war is 60+ years over. Can't change what happened now can we? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Unless you're a revisionist historian that is /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

XyZspineZyX
07-12-2003, 02:29 AM
There was also the Kawanishi N1K2 Shiden, "George", with 4 20mm cannons.

http://www.airandseamodels.com/demo/shiden-kai/1.jpg

http://www.airandseamodels.com/demo/shiden-kai/3.jpg


"The Kawanishi N1K2-J Shiden-Kai (Violet Lightning Modified) was an outstanding fighter. It was well armed and armored, fast and very maneuverable at low altitudes. In the hands of an experienced pilot, the Shiden-Kai was the equal of any Allied fighter (was respected by Allied pilots)."


http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-12-2003, 02:33 AM
Not the best looking plane i've ever seen.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-12-2003, 02:55 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- Not the best looking plane i've ever seen.
-
-

Sort of reminds me of a Jug./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg


Message Edited on 07/11/0310:03PM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
07-12-2003, 06:25 AM
This whole thread equated to a bunch of ***** meansuring...

*Everyone turns towards Jazz-Man*

*Jazz-Man ducks*

Now then...

Carry on....



"If YOU build it, they will add it to the game..."
- With some Liberties from "Field of Dreams"

.....

:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+

"Flying is more than a sport and more than a job; flying is pure passion and desire, which fill a lifetime."

RAF74_JazzMan
RAF No.74 Squadron
http://www.aircombat.ca/RAF74/

http://www.hotel.wineasy.se/ipms/photos/profile_74sqn_06.gif


"Individual victories in the air should be subordinate to the overall sucess of the group....The most important principle is to insure that those under you feel that their commander understands their worries; that the commander can be approached by anyone in the group; that what he demands of the group is necessary, and that you would never demand of them more that what you are willing to demand of yourself."

:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+

XyZspineZyX
07-12-2003, 10:54 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- Not the best looking plane i've ever seen.
-
- Da Buzz



Uhhh, ever seen a bearcat *shiver* .

XyZspineZyX
07-12-2003, 04:38 PM
Almost as bad as a muffinstomp.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-12-2003, 10:43 PM
they shud leave jap planes out of this game...stick to the gud planes.

http://www.aviatorart.com/bailey/images/b-p51.jpg

http://roygrinnell.com/images/plane02m.jpg

http://www.multied.com/aviation/photos/p51.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-12-2003, 11:00 PM
...and i was like ... yeah, whatever...





---------------------------------------



http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.bryant3/ETSigGermany.gif




under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 12:54 AM
TheStriker_p51d wrote:
- they shud leave jap planes out of this game...stick
- to the gud planes.
-

I believe your comment is born of either naivety or patriotism. If it is the latter, than why would you deny someone else their patriotism by forbidding their planes? A zero or Frank would probably shift a fair few units of this product in Japan.

Question: How can a plane be good with nothing to compare it to? Also, this is called "Forgotten Battles" not "P-51 wins the war single-handed".

If the Japanese planes are not good enough in your opinion, how come they had the US going backwards for the best part of a year and it took the US and the other allies (using mostly US a/c BTW) another 2.5 to 3 years to then win the Pacific war against inferior numbers (and even then by firebombings and atomic blackmail)?

You will get a very rude shock when you try fighting 1 on 1 with a Zero or a Ki-84 in this game with your P-51. They aren't the pushover you imagine them to be. In think FB gives a more realistic view of performance than previous sims.

----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

Message Edited on 07/13/0304:08AM by Owl_NZ

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 01:10 AM
7|-|3 |*-51 |*\/\/n-/_ J00 \/\/|-|1n3r$ /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

(|-|33r$,

<CENTER>http://home1.gte.net/vze23gyt/files/p51_jaws.jpg</CENTER><CENTER><font size="+1"><div style="width:500;color:#FF2211;fontsize:11pt;filter:shado w Blur[color=red,strength=2)">73h /\/\u$7@n9 |*wn-/_ j00</div></center></font><FONT color="#59626B">[b]

Message Edited on 07/13/0308:04AM by TaZ_Attack

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 02:15 AM
From reading this thread, I think most of you believe that the P-51 has the performance characteristics of a TB-3. The Mustang was at worst capable and a best dominant. The fact of the matter is this. Th P-51 took everything the germans threw at it and spat it back in their faces.It was able to protect the '17s from the best the germans had to offer, even the 262's. It wasnt just numbers.The Tuskeegee Airmen, an all-mustang squadron, never lost a bomber under their protection. While the skill of those pilots made them better than the germans, their planes gave them the power to compete. The Mustang WILL be able to compete with 190's, 109's, La's and Yaks.IT wont be the best plane, but it will be competitive with those planes.

Owl NZ is right though. We shouldn't deny anyone their patriotism. However anyone includes the British who want the Spitfire and the Americans who want the P-51.

ZG77_Nagual
07-13-2003, 03:43 AM
Oh, and on the rant about 'finally getting fair modeling in a non-us simm' - Obviously the writer never flew the stock zero model in cfs2.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 04:07 AM
Owl, dude;

Criticizing someone's English grammar or spelling in a forum, especially a multinational forum like this, is the "Noobiest" childlike thing to do. One only has to look at your two spelling, four grammatical, and one contextural errors in your post to see you should...

just relax. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

It's just a game. Have fun with it. We know many people are getting anxious about the patch, but ...

It's just a game.

Go outside and get some fresh air into those lungs. Life is too short to quarrel about silly stuff like this and it makes you seem so dorky.

Relax.

Hawk



Message Edited on 07/13/03 03:07AM by Hawk-4

Message Edited on 07/13/0303:09AM by Hawk-4

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 05:03 AM
n00b take yer widdle frank and jap planes back to your corner. notice how the JAPS lost WW2....thats alll u gotta know they got owned in the air...by people like pappy boyington and **** Bong...they OWNED japs.....now a p51 vs the japs...dont get me started.....it would be a massacre ahahah

http://www.aviatorart.com/bailey/images/b-p51.jpg

http://roygrinnell.com/images/plane02m.jpg

http://www.multied.com/aviation/photos/p51.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 05:07 AM
Hey, someone did catch it. Give Hawk-4 a medal. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I can accept grammar is harder than spelling, especially when terms are not from the English dictionary. But at least basic spelling should be easy enough to do. Given his name and sentiments I took him to be from the US, which last time I looked spoke English.

I've adopted this style as the generally accepted approach is near enough but not pedantic. I read that as, make sure you spell right, but grammar isn't as important as getting the point across. I hang around an Aussie forum, so maybe I'm getting bad habits. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif But if you spell right at least people understand what you're saying. I've seen flame wars start when a simple spelling mistake changes the entire context of a statement.

Well relaxed enough already, thank you. The comment was supposed to be a funny, but obviously didn't work out they way. I'll go change it.

-------------------

ZG77_Nagual,
I had CFS2. Had being the operative word. It did precisely nothing for me. Judging by the statements issued here in has not exactly endeared itself to many people. The guy my copy went to wanted something he could get into and shoot lots of aircraft down in. Needless to say he said "Il-2 sounds too hard".

I actually couldn't stand the Zero. It was far too sensitive for my liking. I fly the Il-2 in this, so I must prefer my aircraft "relaxed". /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

-------------------

Actually, the Japanese "owned" Pappy Boyington for as long as vice-versa. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

For what it's worth, I respect Boyington and Co.'s efforts. Same applies for Saburo Sakai and his collegues. If we only believe what is written by the "winner" (of which there are none in a war /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif ) then we'd not be very well informed. The Japanese had political and military troubles aplenty, were up against superior numbers and....wait, you don't give a s*** about history do you? I won't waste my time then. Believe what you want to, the rest of us will believe the truth.

Just don't expect Oleg to grant your wish of no Japanese planes. Your argument would have to better than that. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

P.S. n00b?! Take a look at your rank first laddie before you make that statement. Or are you someone with a red jacket hiding behind another alias....?

----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

Message Edited on 07/13/0304:25AM by Owl_NZ

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 05:18 AM
For example STRIKE
- FIGHTERS... Does anyone even give a crap anymore if
- they patch that POS? I lost interest about 14 days
- ago, ie 336 hours ago, ie 1/2 a month ago, ie about
- 2 weeks ago.



I give a crap...SFP1 still a good game..not POS

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 05:54 AM
Owl_NZ wrote:

- Had a quick look and found this paragraph about the
- Ki-84: "With better manoeuvrability and climb rate
- than the redoubtable North American P-51H Mustang
- and P-47N Thunderbolt...

P-51D and P-47D.

That Ki-84 testing was done in Pensylvannia in 1947. That Ki-84 also hit 429 mph, better than published numbers on the production plane, which indicates some modification or fuel useage that increased its performance.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/LT150.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 06:50 AM
Thanks for the clarification SkyChimp.

The source was "Concise Guide to Axis Aircraft of World War II" by David Mondey. Pg.238.

But it was pretty much universally recognised as the best Japanese fighter of WW2.

I'd love to see the Japanese planes get a look in. Always liked the J2M Raiden. There's plenty of Japanese a/c that'd be nice to fly in FB.

Perhaps Oleg is listening and considering his next campaign move /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif South-East Asia would be nice. Hardly been done (if ever) before. All those IJA aircraft just waiting to fly again....And the US can have their AVG so even they'll be into it. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 07:14 AM
DirtyBirdNH wrote:
- I give a crap...

That makes one of us!

-SFP1 still a good game..not POS

Disagree 100%.. Too buggie, Too long to wait for patches, Too little Too late, etc.. Point being by the time they fix it, it will be so outdated that I wont give a rip. The only thing that made/makes the bugs barable is it is the only jet sim of that era.


TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 10:37 PM
$f|*1 $! 707@1 (r@|* /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

0|= (0ur$3 !1-2 |-8 831/\/6 r313@$3d !/\/ 837@, !$/\/7 k3\/\/ d00d$ /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

/\/\3|-| |-|0|*3 73h |*@7(|-| !$/\/'7 (r@|* /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

(|-|33r$,

<CENTER>http://home1.gte.net/vze23gyt/files/p51_jaws.jpg</CENTER><CENTER><font size="+1"><div style="width:500;color:#FF2211;fontsize:11pt;filter:shado w Blur[color=red,strength=2)">73h /\/\u$7@n9 |*wn-/_ j00</div></center></font><FONT color="#59626B">[b]

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 10:41 PM
?

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 11:12 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- Why do you non Americans get so hostile over
- Americans wanting the P-51?
-
-
- You have your planes, go fly them! We want the
- P-51, and will make out own missions.
-
-
- As for us being disappointed with it. I doubt it.
- We know what the plane will do. With proper tactics
- and teamwork. It will get it's share of kills. Just
- like it did in real life.
-
-
- Will the noobs fly in low turning furballs, and say
- it's crap? Sure they will, but who gives a crap
- about them?
-
-
- Da Buzz


Well, being an Europian, I feel obliged to answer. We are a little afraid that loads of ppl go whining to Oleg that he didn't it model right. Not because Oleg did not do a good job with the P-51 but, because they cannot handle the P-51 like they should. (the way you suggested)

And some europians are disgusted by the way some americans overrate this plane.

I am defenitly going to try it out. And when it is really that good in high-speed high-alt situations, I am also going to use it online. After all, it IS a beautifull plane.



1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

http://members.chello.se/ven/ham-pin.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 11:35 PM
Platypus_1.JaVA wrote:

"Well, being an Europian, I feel obliged to answer. We are a little afraid...."

hehe, thanks.

Barfly
Executive Officer
7. Staffel, JG 77 "Black Eagles"

http://www.7jg77.com

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 11:57 PM
Like I say - Give me a Spitfire any day!!!

Hot Space
Platypus_1.JaVA wrote:
-
- BuzzU wrote:
-- Why do you non Americans get so hostile over
-- Americans wanting the P-51?
--
--
-- You have your planes, go fly them! We want the
-- P-51, and will make out own missions.
--
--
-- As for us being disappointed with it. I doubt it.
-- We know what the plane will do. With proper tactics
-- and teamwork. It will get it's share of kills. Just
-- like it did in real life.
--
--
-- Will the noobs fly in low turning furballs, and say
-- it's crap? Sure they will, but who gives a crap
-- about them?
--
--
-- Da Buzz
-
-
- Well, being an Europian, I feel obliged to answer.
- We are a little afraid that loads of ppl go whining
- to Oleg that he didn't it model right. Not because
- Oleg did not do a good job with the P-51 but,
- because they cannot handle the P-51 like they
- should. (the way you suggested)
-
- And some europians are disgusted by the way some
- americans overrate this plane.
-
- I am defenitly going to try it out. And when it is
- really that good in high-speed high-alt situations,
- I am also going to use it online. After all, it IS a
- beautifull plane.
-
-
-
-
- 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
- 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
- shall be judged: and with what
-
- measure ye mete, it shall be
-
- measured to you again.
-
-
http://members.chello.se/ven/ham-pin.gif
-
-

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 04:41 AM
*tosses his **** into the ring..* Well, I suppose it had to come to this:


TheStriker_p51d wrote:
- n00b take yer widdle frank and jap planes back to
- your corner. notice how the JAPS lost WW2....thats
- alll u gotta know they got owned in the air...by
- people like pappy boyington and **** Bong...they
- OWNED japs.....now a p51 vs the japs...dont get me
- started.....it would be a massacre ahahah

You sir are a moron. Not only was the Japansese Zero superior in all aspects to the American fights that it faces early on in the Pacific, it was able to at worst keep pace with many of the aircraft that the US fielded in the Pacific towards the end of the war. The ONLY, read this carfully, ONLY drawback to the Zero was that it was very lightly armored. The Zero could manuever better, fly faster, climb and dive better than anything we had at the time of Pearl Harbor and Wake Island, and throughout much of the Pacific Campaign.

A wonderful example of no one bothing to learn their history... But in fact, there was a big group of people who thought the Japanese Air fleet was useless also.. Of course, it was 1940, and they were our "great" Military minds. And then a little something called Pearl Harbor happened. To say that the Japanese aircraft was totally inferior, as you have done, completely diminishes the accomplishments of all the great pilots who gave their lives defending the American fleet, and the islands of the Pacific. What you *think* you are expressing, Patriotism, is in fact blatant disrespect of American pilots in the Pacific during the War. Now, I have no blind love of any country, not even the United States, but I do take personal offense that you would suggest that the people who GAVE THEIR LIVES in the Pacific during WW2 were skilless.

Fvck you very much, you're an idiot. Go home.

:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+

"Flying is more than a sport and more than a job; flying is pure passion and desire, which fill a lifetime."

RAF74_JazzMan
RAF No.74 Squadron
http://www.aircombat.ca/RAF74/ ( <A HREF=)" target=_blank>http://www.aircombat.ca/RAF74/</a>

http://www.hotel.wineasy.se/ipms/photos/profile_74sqn_06.gif


"Individual victories in the air should be subordinate to the overall sucess of the group....The most important principle is to insure that those under you feel that their commander understands their worries; that the commander can be approached by anyone in the group; that what he demands of the group is necessary, and that you would never demand of them more that what you are willing to demand of yourself."

:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+

:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+

"Flying is more than a sport and more than a job; flying is pure passion and desire, which fill a lifetime."

RAF74_JazzMan
RAF No.74 Squadron
http://www.aircombat.ca/RAF74/

http://www.hotel.wineasy.se/ipms/photos/profile_74sqn_06.gif


"Individual victories in the air should be subordinate to the overall sucess of the group....The most important principle is to insure that those under you feel that their commander understands their worries; that the commander can be approached by anyone in the group; that what he demands of the group is necessary, and that you would never demand of them more that what you are willing to demand of yourself."

:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 05:22 AM
jazz take your ritiline son....you need it. if you can READ i never said anything about hte aces of ww2 haveing no skil quit puttin words in my mouth punk. and i hope i do see u in the sky some time so i can blow your wing off /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

http://www.aviatorart.com/bailey/images/b-p51.jpg

http://roygrinnell.com/images/plane02m.jpg

http://www.multied.com/aviation/photos/p51.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 07:58 AM
Flying_Merkava wrote:

- Actually I believe that was very fortunate for us!
- And the American planes were still faster, had
- better firepower, and armor.

Still faster? aha. The Ki-84 was surely faster than the F6F and had by far higher firepower. And as said above, later JAAF a/c weren't the flying torches of 1942 anymore. From late 43 Japanese designs accepted pilots critics about lacking armor of earlier standard a/c and bettered protection is a drastic way.

And the topspeed of Ki-100,J2M3 and N1K2-J weren't that dramatic slower or better said better than equal to the Hellcat. It's to remark that the 343rd Kokutai, equipped with "inferior" N1K2-J, had good succes against the Allied forces.




http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


"Kimura, tu as une tªte carée comme un sale boche!"



Message Edited on 07/14/0310:39AM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 08:21 AM
hi,
a addon like 'bombers over europe' + B-29 + other bombers is a good base for planes like P-51..+ P-38 + Spitfire..

otherwise IL2/FB mutate to a boring history of WWII fighters...with no story


..fights over Europe as an intelligent campaign + nice maps for online dogfights + coops that's the way... for more thrilling story

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 10:01 AM
Great posts Jazz-Man & KIMURA.

Perhaps the next time TheStriker_p51d is up on his roof waving his flag he'll fall off. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


TheStriker_p51d,

Bong, the top Pacific ace for the US had 40 kills (all in the P-38).
By comparison, Nishimura had 87 kills, and at least another dozen Japanese pilots had more than Bong's 40 kills. Plus, as they did this in non-US equipment, and taking into account the comments of Jazz-Man and others, clearly your statements concerning Japanese equipment quality are in error.

The vast majority of the US Pacific aces flew P-38's, F4F's, F6F's and F4U's, not your beloved P-51's. In the grand scheme of things they played a minor role in the Pacific. It wasn't until Dec 43 that the B/C variants appeared in Burma (10th AF).

By the time they made any real impression the battle outcome was already decided. Aside from the B-29 escort and South-East Asian work it contributed next to nothing towards Pacific victory. Aside from the efforts of a brave few to intercept the bomber raids over Japan, the P-51's flew against minimal aerial opposition (numbers & pilot-quality wise) and spent a bit of time strafing, not dogfighting.

The JNAF & JAAF hadn't the resources or the quality of pilots to offer any real challenge, a state of affairs acheived by the combined efforts of the US and Commonwealth forces in strangling supply lines and isolating and suppressing enemy forces, and ineffective Japanese planning and government.

So effectively you are trumpeting the fact that the P-51 beat up a cripple. Great going....

When your 4th Grade teacher gets around to teaching you history, maybe you should pay some attention. You might learn something.

----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

Message Edited on 07/15/0303:04AM by Owl_NZ

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 12:29 PM
Panelboy wrote:
-
- Platypus_1.JaVA wrote:
-
- "Well, being an Europian, I feel obliged to answer.
- We are a little afraid...."
-
- hehe, thanks.
-
- Barfly
- Executive Officer
- 7. Staffel, JG 77 "Black Eagles"
-
Now that's just not fair what you did http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

anyway, the AI mustangs are pretty much birdfeed when you are in the 109K4.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

http://members.chello.se/ven/ham-pin.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 01:52 PM
true platypus, but isnt it AI flight characteristics what th p51 has now? i dont think it matters for us to all judge the wayit flys without a cockpit because i think it will be modeled 100% diffently by oleg...(hopefully)


http://www.aviatorart.com/bailey/images/b-p51.jpg

http://roygrinnell.com/images/plane02m.jpg

http://www.multied.com/aviation/photos/p51.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 04:13 PM
Platypus_1.JaVA wrote:
- Now that's just not fair what you did http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
-
- anyway, the AI mustangs are pretty much birdfeed
- when you are in the 109K4.


Let's hope that the AI Mustangs in FB aren't the example of what Oleg & Co. thinks the FM & DM should be like! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Of course, they did model the Jug so poorly I wouldn't be surprised if the P-51 won't able to break 400MPH in a dive...lol! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

(|-|33r$,

<CENTER>http://home1.gte.net/vze23gyt/files/p51_jaws.jpg</CENTER><CENTER><font size="+1"><div style="width:500;color:#FF2211;fontsize:11pt;filter:shado w Blur[color=red,strength=2)">73h /\/\u$7@n6 |*wn-/_ j00</div></center></font><FONT color="#59626B">[b]

Message Edited on 07/14/0311:13AM by TaZ_Attack

ZG77_Nagual
07-14-2003, 04:20 PM
Everything is bird feed in any 109, yak, p39 etc. etc.
There are just a few planes in the simm that cannot easily defeat ai in whatever. However, if you fly a mixed mission in a 262 against 51s, yaks, las - and fly the 262 sensibly about the only plane you'll see anywhere near you is the mustang.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 09:38 PM
all i have to say is that the p51 goes down way to easy for my liking engine is WAY too vulnerable..i know liquid cooled engine were not as tough at radial but come on i can set it ablaze with a half second shot using simple mgs. the yak has a liquid cooled engine too but it takes much longer to get its engine to stop compaired to the 51.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 09:46 PM
"About the only short coming of the P-51D was it's relatively heavy weight, which made it only a mediocre climber up to 20,000'. That deficiency would have been more of a draw back in an "Interceptor" than in the roles the Mustang was designed for, and that fault was corrected in the light weight P-51H, which was produced too late in the War to see action"

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-51.html


Half-hour long P-51B checkout ride WW2 film:

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/realg2/P-51.ram

<center>http://crop-duster.freewebspace.com/images/hal-anim2.gif <marquee>I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over</marquee></center>

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 10:01 PM
All you armchair warriors are going to be BLOWN AWAY when you get the patch...../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Mark my words..... I am sure things will be as accurate as possible for a desktop computer simulator that can run on a variety of machines..rqanging from the red hot souped up monster to the mid sized mid priced but adequate rig most of us have...you just wait...../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ... You are gonna love it. And if the plane goes down easy then you will just have to evade better../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 10:06 PM
Remember the P-51 was always loaded down with alot of fuel. Let's see how it does on a very light fuel load.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 01:20 AM
Biggs22 wrote:
- all i have to say is that the p51 goes down way to
- easy for my liking engine is WAY too vulnerable..i
- know liquid cooled engine were not as tough at
- radial but come on i can set it ablaze with a half
- second shot using simple mgs. the yak has a liquid
- cooled engine too but it takes much longer to get
- its engine to stop compaired to the 51.



And this is an error in FB. The Mustang's engine was no more vulnerable than that of the Yak or Bf-109. All had a significant amount of plumbing that made for a big target area.



Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/SkyChimp.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 01:29 AM
Jazz-Man wrote:

- You sir are a moron. Not only was the Japansese Zero
- superior in all aspects to the American fights that
- it faces early on in the Pacific, it was able to at
- worst keep pace with many of the aircraft that the
- US fielded in the Pacific towards the end of the
- war. The ONLY, read this carfully, ONLY drawback to
- the Zero was that it was very lightly armored. The
- Zero could manuever better, fly faster, climb and
- dive better than anything we had at the time of
- Pearl Harbor and Wake Island, and throughout much of
- the Pacific Campaign.
-
- A wonderful example of no one bothing to learn their
- history... But in fact, there was a big group of
- people who thought the Japanese Air fleet was
- useless also.. Of course, it was 1940, and they were
- our "great" Military minds. And then a little
- something called Pearl Harbor happened. To say that
- the Japanese aircraft was totally inferior, as you
- have done, completely diminishes the accomplishments
- of all the great pilots who gave their lives
- defending the American fleet, and the islands of the
- Pacific. What you *think* you are expressing,
- Patriotism, is in fact blatant disrespect of
- American pilots in the Pacific during the War. Now,
- I have no blind love of any country, not even the
- United States, but I do take personal offense that
- you would suggest that the people who GAVE THEIR
- LIVES in the Pacific during WW2 were skilless.
-
- Fvck you very much, you're an idiot. Go home.


The Zero was not the super-plane that many have made it to be. Yes, it was HIGHLY manueverable, but it was relatively slow, rolled poorly, and dove badly. And while it was slightly faster than the F4F-4 Wildcat, and climbed better, it could not dive nearly as well, and was FAR less rugged. Once the US obtained a A6M2 in the Aleutians, it was determined the advantages of the Zero were gained through extremely light construction.

But even in the early part of the war, there were US planes that possessed the qualities later determined to be more important than extreme manueverability, and that was speed, armor protection, and heavy firepower. The P-40, and, IMO, to an equal extent, the P-39 both possessed these qualities over the Zero which made them better fighters. Used properly, there is no reason the P-39 could not have been successful in the PTO. And the P-40 was a wonderful fighter, earning the respect of many Japanese fighter pilots.

So, the Zero was an great plane without being a really good fighter. Given the numbers faced early in the war and the inexperience of the Americans, no wonder it garnered the reputation it did.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/SkyChimp.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 01:39 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- Remember the P-51 was always loaded down with alot
- of fuel. Let's see how it does on a very light fuel
- load.
-
- Da Buzz

That ain't gonna do ya much good over the middle of Germany! /i/smilies/16x16_robot-tongue.gif


<center>http://crop-duster.freewebspace.com/images/hal-anim2.gif <marquee>I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over</marquee></center>

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 01:47 AM
KIMURA wrote:

- Still faster? aha. The Ki-84 was surely faster than
- the F6F and had by far higher firepower. And as said
- above, later JAAF a/c weren't the flying torches of
- 1942 anymore. From late 43 Japanese designs accepted
- pilots critics about lacking armor of earlier
- standard a/c and bettered protection is a drastic
- way.
-
- And the topspeed of Ki-100,J2M3 and N1K2-J weren't
- that dramatic slower or better said better than
- equal to the Hellcat. It's to remark that the 343rd
- Kokutai, equipped with "inferior" N1K2-J, had good
- succes against the Allied forces.


This could make for an interesting debate, and I'll try not to be preachy.

IMO, the best production Japanese fighters of WWII were, at best, only as good as the F6F-5 Hellcat.

A review of the Ki-84's specs will show that it, and AFAIK without checking -only it-, was as fast or faster than the F6F-5. None of the other Japanese fighters you listed had top speeds as high as the F6F-5. America's Hundred Thousand indicates that in Navy Tests, the F6F-5 topped 400mph (408 IIRC), thought 380-390mph is the more often quoted top speed..

The F6F-5 was as manueverable as any of the later Japanese fighters such as the Ki-84, Ki-100 and N1K2J, and better than the J2M3, Ki-44 and Ki-61.

And while Japanese fighters had "armor", NONE matched that of the Hellcat. Post war tests indicated that the pilot armor of the Ki-84 was insufficient to stop even moderately long range .50 hits. Some late Japanese fighters that have been described as having armor, such as the N1K2J, actually had none. Captain Minoru Genda of the 343 Kokutai states the N1K2J had no armor at all. His quote is in the book "Genda's Blade"...

http://www.aeroplanebooks.com/genda.jpg


...an excellent resource on the unit, commander, men and plane that is often stated to be the best prop fighter produced by the Japanese.


Furthermore, Japanese "self sealing" fuel tanks were usually simply rubber lined, without the true self ceiling properties of the US tanks.

As far as armament, the multiple 20mms of some of the Japanese planes were good, but given the light construction of Japanese fighters, 6 .50s were devestating. Again, in the book "Genda's Blade", Genda himself is quoted as saying that he would prefer to have the American armament than the 4 20mms of the N1K2J.

I agree, Japanese fighters got better as the war went on, but the Japanese never got entirely away from the desire for high manueverability at the expense of high performance. The Ki-84 came close, and IMO equalled the F6F-5 in air-to-air capabilities, but no production Japanese fighter was truly as good as the Mustang or Corsair.

Again, just my opinion.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/SkyChimp.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 02:28 AM
Heuristic_ALgor

I'm talking about the game./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 05:35 AM
Ok, here is my two cents. I for one got this sim souly becuase of the addition of the U.S. Curtiss P40E. I never gave the original IL2 a second glance due to the lack of interesting planes, now dont get your panties in a bunch. I am a Patriotic U.S. citezen, and wish to fly the birds of my heritage in the best sim available, and that happends to be IL2FB. I for one am all about the enjoyment of flying around in a pretty bird in a pretty sim. To Hell with all you whiners about "this plane is over modeled" "that plane is under modeled" The gentleman who started this thread, as well as my self are real pilots who enjoy flying patriotic hystorical birds, as I am sure some of you russians, and germans are. All we want is for a second is to believe that we are indeed flying a P51, or a P40 instead of a cessna, or a King Air. You all have lots of planes to choose from, now hush up and let us U.S. guys have a turn. I am not russian and dont care to fly a russian plane, same goes for all the rest of the nations. As for The U.S. being mad at the french because of Iraq.. that is just the latest. You need to look a little deeper and concider all the other major conflicts, and it is not the citizens that are angry with citizens. we are not making Oleg stop working on fixes for IL2FB just to put out the P51, but are just anxious to get it, and as for if we will like it after it comes out? well I sure read alot of you guys complaining about the plane you all fly a lot. You will never hear me complain about anything except you!!! So, as long as it looks like a mustang, smells like a mustang, then it must be a mustang. As for you guys that are getting mad about the fact that the Americans do matter(due to the fact that U.S. planes have been added to IL2) Tough Shiot!!!

....End of Rant S!~

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 07:54 AM
SkyChimp wrote:

- IMO, the best production Japanese fighters of WWII
- were, at best, only as good as the F6F-5 Hellcat.

Yes but that's always the eye of the beholder. That's why I took the F6F as a compare, not the F4U-4.


- A review of the Ki-84's specs will show that it, and
- AFAIK without checking -only it-, was as fast or
- faster than the F6F-5.

- fighters you listed had top speeds as high as the
- F6F-5. America's Hundred Thousand indicates that in
- Navy Tests, the F6F-5 topped 400mph (408 IIRC),
- thought 380-390mph is the more often quoted top
- speed..

IIRC (havent books handy) the F6F-5 had a topspped of 388mph @opt.hight, while the Ki84-I had 396mph. As I said that speed differences is too less to start a debate which was would be the faster - IHMO. As you stated the Ki-84 reached 429mph in testings in 1947, but that was caused of better fuel quality.


- The F6F-5 was as manueverable as any of the later
- Japanese fighters such as the Ki-84, Ki-100 and
- N1K2J, and better than the J2M3, Ki-44 and Ki-61.

Could be, cause any type I mentioned above. Except the Ki-100 which was a dream to fly - after Japanese reports and the most capable a/c.


- And while Japanese fighters had "armor", NONE
- matched that of the Hellcat.

Yes Grumman ironworks, I know. But have a look at overall a/c constructions of that time of all nations - after 43/44. The armament standard rised up that rapidly that armor protection limped behind armament. That means that with the introduce of 20mm guns as standard, there was no armor available that could protect the important parts of an a/c for sure - eccept pilot protection and even that not on guarantee. All other parts - even armored - could be destroyed or seriously damaged by cannons with ease. So come under the guns of a cannon armed opponent there's little different if youre piloting a Stang or a N1K2-J, the effect and result is nearly the same.


Post war tests
- indicated that the pilot armor of the Ki-84 was
- insufficient to stop even moderately long range .50
- hits. Some late Japanese fighters that have been
- described as having armor, such as the N1K2J,
- actually had none. Captain Minoru Genda of the 343
- Kokutai states the N1K2J had no armor at all. His
- quote is in the book "Genda's Blade"...

Will have some search for a cross-section of the N1K2-J.

- Furthermore, Japanese "self sealing" fuel tanks were
- usually simply rubber lined, without the true self
- ceiling properties of the US tanks.

As I stated above. Rubber tanks will properly work til calibres of 0.5" to 13mm. A 20mm HE hit on any spot of the tank and the sealing mechanism will collaps./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


- As far as armament, the multiple 20mms of some of
- the Japanese planes were good, but given the light
- construction of Japanese fighters, 6 .50s were
- devestating. Again, in the book "Genda's Blade",
- Genda himself is quoted as saying that he would
- prefer to have the American armament than the 4
- 20mms of the N1K2J.

1.IIRC Saburo Sakai's last kill, the B-32, was claimed as Sakai flew a N1K2-J. He was VERY impressed by the phenomenal diving speed (compared to the A6M5) and the outstanding firepower and the resulting effects at the target.

2.That's a question of personal preference. Ask LW pilots about what they would rather have. 6x0.5" or 4x20mm. BTW the output of weigth of 4x20mm is about 180% higher that that of 6x0.5" and the kinetic output is 255kN to 199kN, comparing 4x20mm to 6x0.5". (MG151/20 to M2 0.5")


- I agree, Japanese fighters got better as the war
- went on, but the Japanese never got entirely away
- from the desire for high manueverability at the
- expense of high performance.

That's surely true


- The Ki-84 came close,
- and IMO equalled the F6F-5 in air-to-air
- capabilities, but no production Japanese fighter was
- truly as good as the Mustang or Corsair.
- Again, just my opinion.

That's the meaning of board like this, sharing opinions./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Sincerly


http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


"Kimura, tu as une tªte carée comme un sale boche!"



Message Edited on 07/15/0308:07AM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 09:49 AM
The Ki-100 was probably the best pure dogfighter of the war, but like all the Japanese fighters it was slower than its US counterparts.

I would much more have flown in the fastest fighter, because when you're the fastest, you CAN decided to fight or not.

If you are in a more maniable but slower aircraft, you CANNOT decide it, you just have the fight!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 09:58 AM
We are talking about speed differences of 30-40kph or less, CHDT. That's a too less speed advantage for a secure disengage from enemy./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif That's only 500m/minute, you're still within gun range after a minute. A diengangung rather related to the actual tactical situation than of a pure slight speed advantage/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


"Kimura, tu as une tªte carée comme un sale boche!"



Message Edited on 07/15/0310:19AM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 10:22 AM
Bearcat99 wrote:

- We didnt insist on it.....we did want it from the
- start...who wouldnt want a plane like the P-51 in a
- sim of this quality, Oleg offered it to us and we
- accepted it with sheer joy and expectation......but
- let me ask you this.....say hypothetically IL2 was
- not IL2 but say.....a Pacific theatre sim of the
- same quality with no competitors to be found. Would
- you feel the same way if someone wanted to model say
- a 190...or a 109....in this "Pacific Front" sim? I
- bet you wouldnt say.."No thats OK it's a Pacific
- sim...we dont need the FW in here....you would jump
- at the chance to fly YOUR favorite plane in the best
- sim FMs available. Thats all I and most of my
- compatriots want.

Actually no, if it came to a pacific sim, I'd find a place for myself either in an american or a japanese plane. I'll have to find a place for myself in LOMAC, either in a russian or an american jet.

I think that statements like the one given above, along the lines of "I'm american, and won't fly any other nations planes" is really hard to swallow for every non-american poster here. It reeks of arrogance.

What was the last european or german jet sim you have seen? We europeans had to live with flying non-native planes for ages, especially fast movers. We did it without constant nagging for "our planes".

I'd simple have expected the same from the american players. But it comes down to the fact that for many people, of whom some are partially ignorant about other nations fighters, a sim is only a sim if it has the plane in it that "won the war". That it won against german pilots with under 10 hours of training, with fuel problems, and numerical understrenght, does matter little.

But here's the real kicker: According to some rumours I heard (nothing confirmed yet) the P-51D might be in the FREE addon, and the Me-110 might be in a PAY Addon. Where's the justice in that? Leaving out one of the most important eastern front planes, but importing one of the least important for the most vocal "patriot" crowd...yes, that does get my blood boiling.

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:26 PM
CHDT wrote:
- The Ki-100 was probably the best pure dogfighter of
- the war, but like all the Japanese fighters it was
- slower than its US counterparts.
-
- I would much more have flown in the fastest fighter,
- because when you're the fastest, you CAN decided to
- fight or not.
-
- If you are in a more maniable but slower aircraft,
- you CANNOT decide it, you just have the fight

Everybody read this? Read it again.

Pull and pray fire away is great fun. I love it,and like the turn n burn planes best. But, this is a sim.

In the real world of WW2 flying, I would want to be in the fastest plane. My survival would eventually depend on it.

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:43 PM
IJG54_Nowi wrote:
-
-But it comes down to the fact that for many
- people, of whom some are partially ignorant about
- other nations fighters, a sim is only a sim if it
- has the plane in it that "won the war". That it won
- against german pilots with under 10 hours of
- training, with fuel problems, and numerical
- understrenght, does matter little.
-
Nope. Not quite right. In Jan-May 1944, when the decisive battles for air superiority were fought, and the P-51 was the decisive factor in them, the Germans were neither flying with 10 hours of training, nor outnumbered by the Allied fighters.

If you are talking about the P-51D,which appeared after D-Day for the most part, and the LW had been denuded of many of its experienced leaders and pilots, then I won't argue.

However, the B model was on hand, and in fact the critical factor, in bleeding the LW to that state.

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:47 PM
USAAF_352_HO_E wrote:

- The gentleman
- who started this thread, as well as my self are real
- pilots who enjoy flying patriotic hystorical birds,
- as I am sure some of you russians, and germans are.

-------------------------------------------------------

Patriotic aircraft ?
Very interesting.
Usually I am flying antiamerican aircraft but I would like to know which type of patriotic aircraft won the war ?
Republican or democratic ?

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:59 PM
What's a antiamerican a/c, something new???/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Same stupid thing as Nazi vehicle column, comunist ship, and so......../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


"Kimura, tu as une tªte carée comme un sale boche!"

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 04:07 PM
Slickun wrote:
- Nope. Not quite right. In Jan-May 1944, when the
- decisive battles for air superiority were fought,
- and the P-51 was the decisive factor in them, the
- Germans were neither flying with 10 hours of
- training, nor outnumbered by the Allied fighters.
-
- If you are talking about the P-51D,which appeared
- after D-Day for the most part, and the LW had been
- denuded of many of its experienced leaders and
- pilots, then I won't argue.
-
- However, the B model was on hand, and in fact the
- critical factor, in bleeding the LW to that state.


I thought the P-51B had no real good sides until the P-51D appeared?

And yes, in the context of tghe thread, everyone is asking and talking about the shiny P-51D...which indeed flew mostly against opponents who had little chance.

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 04:11 PM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

This is a fine example of a "traitor antiamerican" Jug:
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg1468.jpg


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

LOL

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 04:53 PM
The P-51D is at least to me the most famous Mustang variant, but does this mean it was the better of versions? I keep hearing more about the B version and it seems to me it was faster than the D and it was a better turner with a higher rate of roll. Is this correct or have I gotten it all wrong?

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.iownjoo.com/freeimghost/robban75/Dorarote6.JPG


'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 05:34 PM
B was faster up high, lighter, climbed better etc. The D was "tuned" for lower level work with its supercharger.

The D was generally faster to about 12K, had much better visibility, and more armament that was trouble free. Pilots seemed to like it better, for the most part.

Roll rates don't seem to be enough different to warrant comment. I've NEVER seen anything complaining about the D's roll rate being different at all.


B versions were present until the end of the war in the ETO, both Brit Mustang III's and US P-51 B/C. One 8th AF Fighter Group flew B's until VE day.

I've never seen it, but one can assume that the D was better at zoom climbing and dive acceleration due to its heavier weight, the B/C better at acceleration, sustained climb, all that stuff a lighter plane would do. I've never seen anything written from the opponents side that would lead one to believe the versions were enough different to warrant a change in combat tactics agasinst the two versions.

I have seen some Brit stuff that made it clear the Brit pilots were aware of the differences, and preferred the earlier version. Their Malcolm hoods minimized the visibility advantage of the D.

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 05:35 PM
"In the real world of WW2 flying, I would want to be in the fastest plane. My survival would eventually depend on it."


Yep, in the fastest plane, you can have a bad day and avoid the fight.

In the slowest aircraft, even with much better maniability, every day, you have to be brave and you've no choice for it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 05:37 PM
So, as a WWII average pilot, I would have choosen, to see alive the end of the war, the most fast and the most strong aircraft, in a word, the Thunderbolt, the M variant in Europe and the N variant near Japan!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 06:14 PM
By then the opposition was pretty much finished. How about early 1944?

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 06:35 PM
Early 44, in spite I do like the look and the performances of the Mustang, I would have preferred to fly a Thunderbolt(not the one in FB /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )!

Cheers,

The_Blue_Devil
07-15-2003, 08:42 PM
Owl_NZ wrote:
- Broaden your horizons people. There are some fine
- non-US aircraft to fly, after all the US did not win
- the war by themselves (sorry if that contradicts
- what you were taught in school /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ).
-

Point taken..but then Europe wasn't beating back Germany before the US got into it either... It was a team effort..GB had the bases and staging points..the USA had the man power and more resources.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>

The_Blue_Devil
07-15-2003, 08:53 PM
IJG54_Nowi wrote:
-
- And yes, in the context of tghe thread, everyone is
- asking and talking about the shiny P-51D...which
- indeed flew mostly against opponents who had little
- chance.
-
-
-
-

It really makes me laugh that the LW folks here only count the period of German Air Superiority when it counts for A/C vs. A/C fights because in the late war Germany had pilots with very little skill, were out-numbered, had the sun in their eyes, had Mecury in alignment with Pluto, etc. We have a saying here in the U.S.A. "Don't start something You can't Finish."
If you want to count only the early war when the LW had skilled pilots well then lets talk about the Thunderbolt..and why 7 out of 10 ETO Aces on the US side flew them against the LW when the Jug was still pulling escort duty.
No one denies that the Mustang came at just the right time for the allies, but does that negate how the plane perfromed over all? Nein Nein Nein.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>

The_Blue_Devil
07-15-2003, 08:58 PM
Slickun wrote:
- B was faster up high, lighter, climbed better etc.
- The D was "tuned" for lower level work with its
- supercharger.
-
- The D was generally faster to about 12K, had much
- better visibility, and more armament that was
- trouble free. Pilots seemed to like it better, for
- the most part.
-
Hmm I think you got that mixed up m8.. The P-51D puts out more power at high alt than the B has on take off. It was made for high alt knife fighting. The B was used for recon and low level bombing as it was faster on the deck than up high. The B had an Allison..the D had a Merlin.


<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 09:03 PM
IJG54_Nowi wrote:
-
- Bearcat99 wrote:
-
-- We didnt insist on it.....we did want it from the
-- start...who wouldnt want a plane like the P-51 in a
-- sim of this quality, Oleg offered it to us and we
-- accepted it with sheer joy and expectation......but
-- let me ask you this.....say hypothetically IL2 was
-- not IL2 but say.....a Pacific theatre sim of the
-- same quality with no competitors to be found. Would
-- you feel the same way if someone wanted to model say
-- a 190...or a 109....in this "Pacific Front" sim? I
-- bet you wouldnt say.."No thats OK it's a Pacific
-- sim...we dont need the FW in here....you would jump
-- at the chance to fly YOUR favorite plane in the best
-- sim FMs available. Thats all I and most of my
-- compatriots want.
-
- Actually no, if it came to a pacific sim, I'd find a
- place for myself either in an american or a japanese
- plane. I'll have to find a place for myself in
- LOMAC, either in a russian or an american jet.
-
- I think that statements like the one given above,
- along the lines of "I'm american, and won't fly any
- other nations planes" is really hard to swallow for
- every non-american poster here. It reeks of
- arrogance.
-
- What was the last european or german jet sim you
- have seen? We europeans had to live with flying
- non-native planes for ages, especially fast movers.
- We did it without constant nagging for "our planes".
-
-
-
- I'd simple have expected the same from the american
- players. But it comes down to the fact that for many
- people, of whom some are partially ignorant about
- other nations fighters, a sim is only a sim if it
- has the plane in it that "won the war". That it won
- against german pilots with under 10 hours of
- training, with fuel problems, and numerical
- understrenght, does matter little.
-
- But here's the real kicker: According to some
- rumours I heard (nothing confirmed yet) the P-51D
- might be in the FREE addon, and the Me-110 might be
- in a PAY Addon. Where's the justice in that? Leaving
- out one of the most important eastern front planes,
- but importing one of the least important for the
- most vocal "patriot" crowd...yes, that does get my
- blood boiling.
-
Nowi,

Don't put words into peoples mouths or imply something that is not there. Bearcats point was for him and many others here(many are non-american I might add) the P-51 is their favorite plane. That is it, he was simply stating that why shouldn't we have it if it has been modelled? And if you notice there is not one phrase in that statement along the line of..."Give me and I am American MY Mustang!" No! I can understand that everybody wants their nations planes in the game and sometimes their favorite plane is not from their respective country. Don't knock anyone just because of the plane they like mate, that is not fair. Me I share my love between the P-47 and P-51 and the man reason I came to this game was to see the Jug modelled correctly for the first time is sim history. And yes I am American, but for the most part we never demanded our planes be added to this game, a few perhaps but there will always be those people no matter what flag their country flies.



<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center> <center> www.361stvfg.com</center> (http://www.361stvfg.com</center>)

<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/CindyII.jpg> </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 10:15 PM
Eagle,


Well said m8. Guess if my favorate plane was a FW190 or BF109 then I would be popular. Would be interesting to see what the forum topic would be if Oleg stated that he was removing the FW190 or the Yak from the sim for 3 months to remodel or something? How many german or russian patriots, or just plain fans would be saying "when will it be done?" ROTFLMAO So lighten up all. I am still trying to figure out why all the negative(sarcastic) remarks about Americans and the P-51?

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 10:33 PM
The_Blue_Devil wrote:
The P-51D
- puts out more power at high alt than the B has on
- take off. It was made for high alt knife fighting.
- The B was used for recon and low level bombing as it
- was faster on the deck than up high. The B had an
- Allison..the D had a Merlin.


Pardon? The B had Allison?

The P-51A/Mustang II used the Allison V-1710-81 with about 1330HP and a Vmax of 409mph @ 10000ft.

P-51B/Mustang III used the Packard V-1650-3 with 1380hp@TO and 1600hp WEP. Vmax. 440mph @ 25'000ft.

P-51C used V-1650-7 (and for the B-10) with increased 1590hp@8500ft.

The D-model used the same engine as the C-model.


http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


"Kimura, tu as une tªte carré comme un sale boche!"



Message Edited on 07/15/0310:42PM by KIMURA

The_Blue_Devil
07-16-2003, 02:27 AM
My mistake..got the Allison version and the version used by the Brits mixed up.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 05:19 AM
IJG54_Nowi wrote:
- Bearcat99 wrote:
-- We didnt insist on it.....we did want it from the
-- start...who wouldnt want a plane like the P-51 in a
-- sim of this quality, Oleg offered it to us and we
-- accepted it with sheer joy and expectation......but
-- let me ask you this.....say hypothetically IL2 was
-- not IL2 but say.....a Pacific theatre sim of the
-- same quality with no competitors to be found. Would
-- you feel the same way if someone wanted to model say
-- a 190...or a 109....in this "Pacific Front" sim? I
-- bet you wouldnt say.."No thats OK it's a Pacific
-- sim...we dont need the FW in here....you would jump
-- at the chance to fly YOUR favorite plane in the best
-- sim FMs available. Thats all I and most of my
-- compatriots want.
IJG54_Nowi wrote:
-- Actually no, if it came to a pacific sim, I'd find a
- place for myself either in an american or a japanese
- plane. I'll have to find a place for myself in
- LOMAC, either in a russian or an american jet.

I just got home from my second job and so I will not debate you here tonight..however you obviously didnt take the time to read my post. Note that I said "....if someone wanted to model say
a 190...or a 109....in this "Pacific Front" sim? I
bet you wouldnt say.."No thats OK it's a Pacific
sim...we dont need the FW in here....you would jump
at the chance to fly YOUR favorite plane in the best
sim FMs available."

Note that I never said you would be insisting or demanding a 190 or a 109....like we werent insisting on or demanding a P-51...Oleg said it would be here and we are chomping at the bit for it but I got IL2 before I heard of FB...German & Russian planes and all...because I like sims...good sims...like IL2 and now FB........if you say you would turn them down (the 190 or 109) or not fly them if conditions were like I stated above (as in someone modeling it or the developer putting it into his Pacific theatre sim) you are a liar and you know it. You WOULD indeed fly it and you would like it just like I fly the 190 & 109 in this sim because it is there and it is a good plane and i am waiting like a ***** at a port for the P-51...just like you would be if this were a theatre sim where the 190 or 109 was not a prominent player but the plane was coming.

IJG54_Nowi wrote:
- I think that statements like the one given above,
- along the lines of "I'm american, and won't fly any
- other nations planes" is really hard to swallow for
- every non-american poster here. It reeks of
- arrogance.
- What was the last european or german jet sim you
- have seen? We europeans had to live with flying
- non-native planes for ages, especially fast movers.
- We did it without constant nagging for "our planes".
- I'd simple have expected the same from the american
- players. But it comes down to the fact that for many
- people, of whom some are partially ignorant about
- other nations fighters, a sim is only a sim if it
- has the plane in it that "won the war". That it won
- against german pilots with under 10 hours of
- training, with fuel problems, and numerical
- understrenght, does matter little.

Ohhhhh pooor you....You are talking out of the side of your neck A-GAIN... The Germans lost the war because their leadership at the top were idiots..period. If the Generals had had their way we all would most likely be speaking German now but they chose to let that sick b@stard Adolf and his band of buffons lead them down the road that ultimately lead to destruction. I for one am happy they were jerks. You talk about arrogance... You and the small band of @ssholes who think like you always come to threads with the same old tired BS.

- But here's the real kicker: According to some
- rumours I heard (nothing confirmed yet) the P-51D
- might be in the FREE addon, and the Me-110 might be
- in a PAY Addon. Where's the justice in that? Leaving
- out one of the most important eastern front planes,
- but importing one of the least important for the
- most vocal "patriot" crowd...yes, that does get my
- blood boiling.

<marquee><FONT SIZE="+20"><FONT COLOR="YELLOW">GET OVER IT!!!<FONT COLOR><FONT SIZE></marguee>


<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 07:10 AM
Bearcat get off your high horse. If Maddox Games released a Pacific Sim I doubt you´ll hear more than a handful whines for european planes (e.g. german ones) - they just don´t belong there. If I bought that sim (which is not sure since the PTO doesn´t interest me at all) I would also "fight" (sorry - lacking better term here) against these demands since they don´t have anything to do with the theater of the simulation. The demands for the P-51 were numerous as well as the "reasons" for the demands - in my opinion most "reasons" were either plain wrong, plain dumb or plain arrogant. I don´t need a P-51 in an Eastern Front sim (and I only laugh when someone mentions "Frantic Joe" - they merely landed there). I don´t need a Me-163 or Ta-152 either - I don´t even need a He-162, Me 323 or He 111Z, too. Before all those exotic types or planes which belong to the Western Front there would be so many "forgotten" planes which really served on the Eastern Front - A-20B/G, the cockpits for the soviet bombers (Tu-2. Pe-2, Il-4, ...), the cockpits for german bombers (Ju-88, later He-111 versions, ...), Hs123, IAR 80/81, Macchi 200, SM79 etc etc ...

For all the work put into these "western" planes I think there could be at least one more Eastern Front map which closes gaps in the mapset. My 0,02 Euro

---------------------------
http://home.t-online.de/home/340045970094-0001/lwskins_banner_gross.jpg (http://www.lwskins.de.vu)
Historical Skins for Luftwaffe-Fighters

The_Blue_Devil
07-16-2003, 07:26 AM
Euros don't count in the U.S. =0p

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 07:32 AM
im american and i like the looks of the fw190 more than the p51 . i think most of the planes are fun. but you need the icon of ww2 fighter planes in this sim to help get an idea how all the planes perform against it. the ICON being of course the most well known fighter of ww2 the P-51 Mustang. no one in the world can dispute that the mustang is the most well known fighter of ww2 . the whole world knows that plane,....besides the MUSTANG WON THE WAR.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the real sim aces. message boards open to the public

Message Edited on 07/16/0306:33AM by RedDeth

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 07:47 AM
RedDeth wrote:
- im american and i like the looks of the fw190 more
- than the p51 . i think most of the planes are fun.
- but you need the icon of ww2 fighter planes in this
- sim to help get an idea how all the planes perform
- against it. the ICON being of course the most well
- known fighter of ww2 the P-51 Mustang. no one in
- the world can dispute that the mustang is the most
- well known fighter of ww2 . the whole world knows
- that plane,....besides the MUSTANG WON THE WAR.
-
-

What complete and utter drivel. The Mustang was a superb plane, once they put a Merlin engine in it, but it wasn't 'the' icon of WW2 - if any plane was it was the Spitfire, simple as that.

http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/normal_Spitfire-coming-atcha.jpg


/m

http://www.world-data-systems.com/lomac/pirhana.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 07:51 AM
The_Blue_Devil wrote:
- Euros don't count in the U.S. =0p


Meaning that my opinion isn´t viable, but yours is ?? http://forum.gamesurf.tiscali.de/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

---------------------------
http://home.t-online.de/home/340045970094-0001/lwskins_banner_gross.jpg (http://www.lwskins.de.vu)
Historical Skins for Luftwaffe-Fighters

Message Edited on 07/16/0307:52AM by csThor

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 10:50 AM
The P-51 is soon to become flyable one way or the other! And I'm really looknig forward to fight in it, aswell as against it! Especially with the Doras and the Ta 152! The more medium and high altitude fighters we get the more reason for a correct high alt model! So, for those who like to fight down low can tumble around in their Yaks and La,s and for those who like to paint white lines in the sky at high alts can do so in our P-51's Jug's 109's and 190's! Now all we need is a Spit MkXIV!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.iownjoo.com/freeimghost/robban75/Dorarote6.JPG


'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 11:16 AM
Eagle, I have nothing against people who just want to fly their favourite planes in the best WW2 sim we have.

I DO have something against people who seem to think that non american planes are not interesting, or a sim without them not worth bothering.

And I DO have something against this drivel of "The P-51D won the war and was the best superplane ever, made by god himself".

As for the hypothetical pacific sim...like Thor said, I would not even want Luftwaffe there. Hell, I dont fly insane furballs, when I fly a coop or a dogfight, then the planes got to match the landscape down low. Even if the developer came up promising me a 190, I'd simple not feel that it has any part in the theatre.

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 02:17 PM
csThor wrote:
- Bearcat get off your high horse. If Maddox Games
- released a Pacific Sim I doubt you´ll hear more than
- a handful whines for european planes (e.g. german
- ones) - they just don´t belong there. If I bought
- that sim (which is not sure since the PTO doesn´t
- interest me at all) I would also "fight" (sorry -
- lacking better term here) against these demands
- since they don´t have anything to do with the
- theater of the simulation.

First off I am on no high horse as you put it. From the way I understand it we didnt "force" or "whine" Oleg into putting a Pony in here....from what I understand he likes the plane himself..thats why HE did it. It was his idea....as was the P-47 and the P-40.... I dont think Oleg responds too much to whines in their own right...if he did you would not have that multi paged 190 cockpit thread that refuses to die inspite of the outcome..... The fact remains that FB is the best WW2 combat sim with the best FMs and DMs available. I would take any and every warbird under these FMs I can get because of that. If you prefer to limit your options due to "historical" accuracy then thats you. I say bring em all on......

IJG54_Nowi wrote:

Eagle, I have nothing against people who just want to fly their favourite planes in the best WW2 sim we have.

I DO have something against people who seem to think that non american planes are not interesting, or a sim without them not worth bothering.

And I DO have something against this drivel of "The P-51D won the war and was the best superplane ever, made by god himself".

As for the hypothetical pacific sim...like Thor said, I would not even want Luftwaffe there. Hell, I dont fly insane furballs, when I fly a coop or a dogfight, then the planes got to match the landscape down low. Even if the developer came up promising me a 190, I'd simple not feel that it has any part in the theatre.


Nowi you are right about one thing the BF-110 and all the other planes in the sim already that are unflyable should be made flyable ASAP....and for free..I do agree with you there.... and note I didnt call you a liar outright..... because you and I both know that you WOULD fly the plane...even if it was historically innacurate...how could you NOT..the 190s a sweet birds in this sim..the best 190 FMs I know of.....You being a fan of the plane ...how could you not fly it (if this were a hypothetical Pacific sim)? As far as people who think non-American planes are not interesting.....well they obviously are narrowminded, short sighted individuals. I will be the first to admit that my initial response to IL2 was (Aside from d@mmit!!! I cant run this on my 233 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif .....) was...what!!! No pony??? But I love sims...and as soon as I got a rig that would run it I bought it and have not looked back....not even glancing over my shoulder, since.... These planes opened up a whole new world to me I didnt let the fact that most of the planes were not American stop me from buying the sim. True some of my countrymen here have no clue as to the facts..true some of them are highly opinionated and sometimes on the edge..(myself included at times..) but a lot of us just like to see you Euros get your shorts all wound around your jewels....just because we say the P-51 won the war ..../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif





<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 04:39 PM
IJG54_Nowi wrote:
- Eagle, I have nothing against people who just want
- to fly their favourite planes in the best WW2 sim we
- have.
-
- I DO have something against people who seem to think
- that non american planes are not interesting, or a
- sim without them not worth bothering.
-
- And I DO have something against this drivel of "The
- P-51D won the war and was the best superplane ever,
- made by god himself".
-
- As for the hypothetical pacific sim...like Thor
- said, I would not even want Luftwaffe there. Hell, I
- dont fly insane furballs, when I fly a coop or a
- dogfight, then the planes got to match the landscape
- down low. Even if the developer came up promising me
- a 190, I'd simple not feel that it has any part in
- the theatre.
-
Nowi,
I totally agree with you and hope that the 110 becomes flyable and for free. In fact that is another plane I am really interested to fly. Me I dont care for low level "lone wolf" furballs either I am a boom and zoomer to the core, but I can mix it up if I am forced too. I love this game, before I got it I had always wondered why the 109's and 190's were so highly regarded in the history books yet sucked in every sim. Then I got this game and wow, finally I could see just how great they were. Me I love my Jug and fly it the most, but I also love flying the BF109F4, G-10 and the FW190 any model, although the only one of those I do well in is the F-4 for abvious reasons. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
I also agree that those people who say the "P-51 won the war" are generally just kidding around, however a few of them might be serious in what they believe./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Any person with knowledge knows that the P-51 was one of the greatest fighters ever, but that did not mean she was all alone in her greatness. Quite the opposite I can name off a dozen planes from WWII that would join the P-51 in the greatest category. I also don't understand why some people including some my one countrymen can be so narrowminded by not flying all of the various planes in this game, they are here for us to do it. I never really appreciated a plane until I flew it and could see it's strong points and flaws.
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG


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XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 05:00 PM
Eagle - here in Germany a smaller TV station broadcasts a lot of "Discovery Channel" documentation (translated into german) - also about the 2nd World War. And if these "documentations" are an indicator for what the "general" audience in the US (which excludes informed persons) is fed all the time then - with all due respect - this isn´t worthy to be called "historical documentation" but plain and simple "historical falsification" or "adaptation". When you´re bombarded with BS like that 24/7/365 then one - who has no access to international sources - might actually start to believe that.

So you might understand why a lot of Euros (who surely get the same stuff on TV) react a little harshly to comments like that.

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Historical Skins for Luftwaffe-Fighters

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 05:14 PM
okay, my last post on this thread.

IJG54_Nowi wrote:
- I DO have something against people who seem to think
- that non american planes are not interesting, or a
- sim without them not worth bothering.

First of all, I have not read a post here that says that.
Second of all, it sounds like you do not like the mustang, so does that mean you find american planes uninteresting and not worth bothering with?

For the rest of you guys yelling it has no place here and all that historical BS, How come there are only one or two rooms on the net at any given time (sometimes none) that fly at 100% real with no tags and axis vs allies? when ever I start one very few join. my point is it seems that it should only be historical when it suites you? dont recall any reports on a plane in WWII that had a hud view or an external camera mount or electronic neon names trailing behind the plane either. I know now that a bunch will start yelling "I fly that way all the time" well it is just funny no ever seems to do it online.


Finally, complain all you like. The Pony is coming even if you don't think it belongs. So there :>P

over and out S!~

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 05:18 PM
we all do have to admit that the brits germans and americans made all the exciting planes. the russkies planes are Blaaaaaaaaaaaaah. fun to fly somewhat but with the visual pinache of a potato ! no offense to the russian people themselves . theyre fine chaps.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the real sim aces. message boards open to the public

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 06:43 PM
USAAF_352_HO_E wrote:
- okay, my last post on this thread.
-
- IJG54_Nowi wrote:
-- I DO have something against people who seem to think
-- that non american planes are not interesting, or a
-- sim without them not worth bothering.
-
- First of all, I have not read a post here that says
- that.

Hehe, that is funny, because YOU posted it yourself:

USAAF_352_HO_E wrote:
- Ok, here is my two cents. I for one got this sim
- souly becuase of the addition of the U.S. Curtiss
- P40E. I never gave the original IL2 a second glance
- due to the lack of interesting planes, now dont get
- your panties in a bunch. I am a Patriotic U.S.
- citezen, and wish to fly the birds of my heritage in
- the best sim available, and that happends to be
- IL2FB. I for one am all about the enjoyment of
- flying around in a pretty bird in a pretty sim. To
- Hell with all you whiners about "this plane is over
- modeled" "that plane is under modeled" The gentleman
- who started this thread, as well as my self are real
- pilots who enjoy flying patriotic hystorical birds,
- as I am sure some of you russians, and germans are.
- All we want is for a second is to believe that we
- are indeed flying a P51, or a P40 instead of a
- cessna, or a King Air. You all have lots of planes
- to choose from, now hush up and let us U.S. guys
- have a turn. I am not russian and dont care to fly a
- russian plane, same goes for all the rest of the
- nations.


You yourself wrote that you couldn't care less about any other nations planes and just want to fly american planes. Now indeed, that is the kind of pardon, arrogance, I talked about earlier.

I see that there are many reasonable fellows in this thread who, after broadening their horizon beyond the usual western front, are now wishing to return to some of their most favorite planes. That really is A-Okay.

But people like you, who flat out admit that everthing without a Blue/White Star on it doesn't count, should learn more about the rest of the world.

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 07:00 PM
IJG54_Nowi wrote:

-You yourself wrote that you couldn't care less about any
-other nations planes and just want to fly american
-planes. Now indeed, that is the kind of pardon,
-arrogance, I talked about earlier.

-I see that there are many reasonable fellows in this
-thread who, after broadening their horizon beyond the
-usual western front, are now wishing to return to some of
-their most favorite planes. That really is A-Okay.

-But people like you, who flat out admit that everthing
-without a Blue/White Star on it doesn't count, should
-learn more about the rest of the world.

Man, are you a fiction writer by chance?
I wrote no such thing. I beleive I stated :

I am not russian and dont care to fly a
russian plane, same goes for all the rest of the
nations.

That does not mean they don't matter nor does it mean they are no good, infact there are quite a few very good planes in every nation. It is arrogance such as yours to presume that gets everyone in an uproar. Just becuase I have a preference does not make me arrogant. On the other hand, presumption does signify arrogance.

so I lied... maybe this one will be my last post on this thread. S!~

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 07:23 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
-
- VMF-214_HaVoK wrote:
--
-- Umm US pilots. You know the largest consumer of the
-- IL-2 series ;p
-
-
- Ummm Il-2 has sold much more copies in Europe than
- in US. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif -
-
-
--jippo
-
-

Hmm well, can you guess why? I'm an american (Canadian not US) and the P-51s, Spitfires, B-17s [...] are the planes I know and wish I could fly on the best flight sim available (wich happens to be Il2-FB). Me and my squad mates where not sure about buying this sim since it did not includes fighters and bombers we know. What decided us was the BF109 and FW190 since we know those planes. But you can bet your house and wife many americans did not buy it because it did not include planes they know and wish they could fly in the best sim on the market.
Of course I'm grateful Oleg showed me the unknown planes of the east, but, and it's a big but, I sure wish I could fly the planes I know.

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 07:29 PM
Then I dont understand American gamers. Heck the sim doesnt have any finnish aircrafts /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif and still finns bought it like crazy.

----if you are easily flamed person ignore the next-----

No offense but I think its your culture that teaches you to only love US.

--------------------------------------------------------

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 07:37 PM
alarmer wrote:

-----if you are easily flamed person ignore the next-----
-
- No offense but I think its your culture that teaches
- you to only love US.
-
---------------------------------------------------------
-
-

Ho yes you are perfectly right. I cannot argue with that. But nonetheless it's the culture of 2 whole, rich, computer filled countries. The more the known planes, the more the americans will buy it. It's not a question of american planes, it's a question of "known" planes. Lancasters, Me262, Me109, FW190, B17, Spitfires, Hurricanes, Mosquiitos, P-51, Ju88, Do17, Stukas, P38, Il2, Yak3 etc...

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 08:25 PM
Edited by Vengeanze.
This account is an impersonator. Banned!

<table width="100%" border="0" align="center">
<tr>

<td colspan="2"><hr></td>

<td rowspan="2"><font face="Verdana, Arial,
Helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">
http://members.chello.se/ven/duck.jpg
<align="right"></font></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td width="43%"><font face="Verdana, Arial,
Helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">Rubber Ducky, joy of
joys,

When I squeeze you, you make noise!
Rubber Ducky, you're my very best friend,
it's true!

Rubber Ducky, you're the one,
You make bathtime lots of fun,
Rubber Ducky, I'm awfully fond of you.</font>
</td>

<td width="36%"><font face="Verdana, Arial,
Helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">Every day when I

make my way to the tubby
I find a little fella who's
Cute and yellow and chubby

Rubber Ducky, you're so fine
And I'm lucky that you're mine
Rubber ducky, I'm awfully fond of you.</font></td>
</tr>

</table>



Message Edited on 07/17/0303:34PM by Vengeanze

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 10:25 PM
Vengaenze wrote:
- Bearcat99, that silly drivel of yours will take you
- nowhere. Trust me on this /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .


?????? what silly drivel..........?


<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 10:55 PM
Bearcat99 wrote:
-
- Vengaenze wrote:
-- Bearcat99, that silly drivel of yours will take you
-- nowhere. Trust me on this /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .
-
-
- ?????? what silly drivel..........?

Hmmm...I see a pattern developing. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif



Cheers,

<CENTER>http://home1.gte.net/vze23gyt/files/p51_jaws.jpg</CENTER><CENTER><font size="+1"><div style="width:500;color:#FF2211;fontsize:11pt;filter:shado w Blur[color=red,strength=2)">73h /\/\u$7@/\/6 |*\/\//\/-/_ j00</div></center></font><FONT color="#59626B">[b]

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 11:29 PM
Fneb!

---------------------------------------



http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.bryant3/ETSigGermany.gif




under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 01:53 AM
csThor wrote:
- Eagle - here in Germany a smaller TV station
- broadcasts a lot of "Discovery Channel"
- documentation (translated into german) - also about
- the 2nd World War. And if these "documentations" are
- an indicator for what the "general" audience in the
- US (which excludes informed persons) is fed all the
- time then - with all due respect - this isn´t worthy
- to be called "historical documentation" but plain
- and simple "historical falsification" or
- "adaptation". When you´re bombarded with BS like
- that 24/7/365 then one - who has no access to
- international sources - might actually start to
- believe that.
-
- So you might understand why a lot of Euros (who
- surely get the same stuff on TV) react a little
- harshly to comments like that.


I understand what you are saying, Thor. But please don't confuse the History Channel with being a resource for serious historians. It airs popular history. And also don't make the mistake of believing it only does so on behalf of Americans. I remember a show that attributed the invention and developement of the flying wing to the Hortens, and said that the Horten wing was the basis for the B-2 Spirit. That's incorrect, but often repeated by Germans I see on this site.

So, I understand that you would be upset with Americans. I understand why you think we are somewhat selfish and self absorbed, interested in our own history and no one elses, refusing even to acknowledge the contribution of others. I understand.

BTW, did you know you don't have a single American, or even allied, skin available on your site?

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_images/koreanext.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 02:44 AM
Zinger../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 04:03 AM
ill second that zinger yee haaa ~! hehe

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the real sim aces. message boards open to the public

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 05:10 AM
@ Skychimp

Of course I don´t take History Channel seriously as a historical souirce, but if someone - who has no library full of books - watches that stuff continously then he might believe what is said there.
And concerning the skins - you might realize that the name is "Luftwaffenskins" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ... Basically it has to do with the fact that I have better material on the axis air forces than allied ones - especially since the Luftwaffe itself is my major area of interest. It´s just easier to do something you have researched yourself (colours, markings, ...). Additionally there are so many Stang or Jug skins at Il2skins.com - why always go with the "mainstream" ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I also make plastic models (when I have time which is rather seldom /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif ) and there is a mixture of different types on my shelves (Fw190 A-8, D-9, Me 109 G-10, Me 410 B-2, P-47D, P51B, Su-27, F14D).

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Historical Skins for Luftwaffe-Fighters

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 05:43 AM
You yourself researched the Luftaffenskin ITSELF?
I, myself am impressed ... uh, itself.

LOL

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 05:47 AM
LOL ... must be the time (after 6 in the morning here) - I´m not quite awake and so my ramblings do not need to make any sense /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Historical Skins for Luftwaffe-Fighters

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 05:59 AM
Thor,

Any serious history/aviation buff will know better than to quote History Channel, at least I hope. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I love planes with props and have many books, and I am always looking for more. I am like the cookie monster when it comes to books, can't get enough. Anyway I agree that there are some uninformed Americans, but there are many here like me who just go with the flow and only talk about what we can back up. I build models too, mostly 1/48th scale and only prop stuff. To me if it doesn't have a prop it doesn't have a "soul", if you get what I mean. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif By the way can you recommend any good books on the FW190 in english? Very hard plane to find any solid information on other than a few pages.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center> <center> www.361stvfg.com</center> (http://www.361stvfg.com</center>)

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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 06:46 AM
Well I have the one from Alfred Price "Fw 190 in Combat", but to me it was a little "superficial" on a lot of things - Eastern Front, Africa and Italy etc ... Details on early Fw 190´s and then especially the later ones.

I also have the Osprey "Aces" series for both Eastern and Western Front. I think you know the shortcomings of this series, but for a general overview they are quite ok.

Personaly I am less interested in the technical details, but more in unit history, missions and especially camouflage.

---------------------------
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Historical Skins for Luftwaffe-Fighters

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 09:57 AM
mattduggan wrote:

- What complete and utter drivel. The Mustang was a
- superb plane, once they put a Merlin engine in it,
- but it wasn't 'the' icon of WW2 - if any plane was
- it was the Spitfire, simple as that.
-
http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/a
- lbums/userpics/normal_Spitfire-coming-atcha.jpg
-
-
- /m
-

this man is on to it, maybee the 109 to.



http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 03:27 PM
If I was going to class a "Icon" of WWII as a plane, personally I think it would be several planes and definately the P-51 would be one of them. Having said that, I will list what I consider "Icons", there are too many to put one out as the best IMO.
These are in no order.....
1) P-47
2) Spitfire
3) BF-109
4) FW 190
5) P-51
6) P-38
7) Hellcat
8) Yak series
9) B-17
10) B-24
11) Lancaster
12) Hurricane
13) Corsair
14) Zero
15) P-40
16) B-29 oops forgot a couple others.....
17) Ju-87
18) IL-2
IMO all of these plane contibuted greatly to their countries and each I think are true "icons" from WWII. Planes we all dream of flying in real life. Always wondering what is was like to fly it.
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center> <center> www.361stvfg.com</center> (http://www.361stvfg.com</center>)

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Message Edited on 07/17/0304:18PM by Eagle_361st

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 04:34 PM
Well you pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one....

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

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<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 04:00 AM
Yup, I could not agree more. All of those are the mascotts for there countries. I can only think of one plane to add to that list and that would be a george.

I think all of those plains should be available in FB.
Hint Hint Oleg!!!

:-) S!~