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ASM 1
01-27-2005, 01:42 PM
I know this has been mentioned in the "Today in WW2 History" thread but maybe it deserves a thread of its own. I'm not trying to provoke debate or anything... just a moments thought.....

ASM 1
01-27-2005, 01:42 PM
I know this has been mentioned in the "Today in WW2 History" thread but maybe it deserves a thread of its own. I'm not trying to provoke debate or anything... just a moments thought.....

PraetorHonoris
01-27-2005, 01:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASM 1:
it deserves a thread of its own. just a moments thought..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think so, too. Let us never forget.

nearmiss
01-27-2005, 02:06 PM
We don't need this thread.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif & http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif

ASM 1
01-27-2005, 02:18 PM
EDITED - not worth me taking the bait http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

BelaLvgosi
01-27-2005, 02:22 PM
This thread has more to do with mankind than with politics. And yes, we all need it.

madsarmy
01-27-2005, 02:39 PM
WE WILL NEVER FORGET - AUSCHWITZ



by Alexander Kimel - Holocaust Survivor

We will never forget the selections at Auschwitz,
Where Black Jackals condemned millions to gas,
Right - death, left - life, right death... death ...death.
The black finger, surrounded with barking dogs,
Works like the Angel of Death, creating living hell.

Children are torn apart from the tender embrace
Of mothers, clinging to their treasures.
Babies wailing from hunger,
Parents parting tearfully with their children.
Fathers shaken with helpless rage.
The condemned form a column of trembling fear.


Soon the mass of fainting humanity
Is lead to the clean foyer of death.
Disrobe quickly, take a shower and you will be fed.
Food! Food! The hungry mass of disoriented humanity
Awakens runs and fights to get into the chamber of gas.

The heavy door closes and the cyclone dropped.
Soon the parents choke and turn blue,
Later the children turn rigid with death
The people become a twisted load,
Of intertwined limps and heads glued with blood.

When the human pulp is ready for the works,
Sondercommando quickly pull,
The bodies apart, peel the gold from the mouths.
And the remains are taken to the open pit,
Where the bones are cleaned with fire,
And the fat drained for human soap.

Six days a week the Jackals drink beer,
And rejoice doing the Devil's work.
Sunday is the day of rest, the day
When the Jackals ride to the Church, to praise God
And assure the Salvation of their pious souls.

Deutschland, Deutschland Uber Alles!
In this Kingdom of Evil,
There is no peace for the Righteous.
It is the wicked that inherited
This tortured World, engulfed
In the red, milky, cry-absorbing fog,
Guarding the wilted conscience of man.

LStarosta
01-27-2005, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
We don't need this thread.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif & http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


If you thought this thread was so irrelevant, you wouldn't have posted here.



Never forget O"więcim.

PBNA-Boosher
01-27-2005, 04:13 PM
I remember

Bearcat99
01-27-2005, 04:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
We don't need this thread.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif & http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On the contrary... we need to remember it. Always.... the systematic anhihilation of millions... so coldly and efficiently.... women, children, men in such an assembly line fasion should never be trivialized. While true there were attrocities all over the globe during the war nothing that I am aware of comes close to the efficient way that the Nazi camps did their work. We must keep in mind that Auschwitz was not just the Holocaust. More than the 6 million Jews we hear so much about constantly were killed.... the thing that makes what happened to the Jews so insidious is that they were killed not for what they did but for who they were. Their crime was simply existing.... and THAT is what the real part of that crime was. Plus the fact that they were raped and robbed and worked to death before they were murdered by people who just a few years before were regular folks. If we should allow this to become trivialized then we are lessened. As sick as I get sometimes to be honest of having the Holocaust rammed down my throat at every turn...... at the expense of so much other history and lessons for humanity, like Cambodia, the Native American Holocaust and of course The Slave Trade, I would rather have that than to be allowed to forget the depths to which mannkind can sink with no more prodding than an idea. We must also remember that Nazi does not = German. Although there were Germans who were wholly complicit in the events we are remembering.. there were also other Germans who also died in the same camps for living their faith, doing what was right in the face of evil and standing up against tyranny.

MEGILE
01-27-2005, 04:18 PM
Over the last few weeks there has been a documentary on UK tv about the holocaust, in build up to today.
Extremly interesting viewing.

Let us NEVER forget. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

ASM 1
01-27-2005, 04:42 PM
My motivation for doing this was out of sheer befuddlement over the very fact that many young people simply do not know what Auschwitz is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif (and I say, "is" because it still stands....) - this coming from a 24 yr old...


Bearcat... VERY succintly put.

This is KEY to it all:

"If we should allow this to become trivialized when we are lessened."

- which is why I was so P!ssed off with our young prince (Harry) for doing what he did and perhaps not knowing/or realizing what it REALLY symbolized - and for the fact that so many tried to defend/trivialise the matter....

However I digress.... that is another matter and OT for the intent of this thread.

Ignorance (and/or a desire to brush things under the carpet, is VERY dangerous) - yes it may be "not very nice to talk about" but we MUST.... otherwise complacency sets in. Besides, who is going to "remember" when all the survivors eventually die off? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I doubt somehow if many will be around for the 70th Anniversary....

@Megile - bugger, missed thathttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif wanted to see it (yeah I missed all 3 parts)

Thank you all for your support in here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sharkey888
01-27-2005, 05:54 PM
Was there in August-very sad indeed! I was also in Warsaw during the anniversary of the Uprising-they rang the air raid sirens for about 5 minutes, that was also very emotional!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

darkhorizon11
01-27-2005, 07:32 PM
Yeah. Let us never forget. We can't change the past only use it to better plan the future.

LStarosta
01-27-2005, 07:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sharkey888:
Was there in August-very sad indeed! I was also in Warsaw during the anniversary of the Uprising-they rang the air raid sirens for about 5 minutes, that was also very emotional!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. I was in Krakow during the 60th anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising. Unfortunately, I was unable to be in Warsaw at the time. If I remember correctly, they also ran air raid sirens. I was at the Market Square at 1700 the moment it happened. Unfortunately, maybe due to the fact that many people there were foreign tourists, or maybe due to sheer ignorance (which should be a sin), people either a) thought there was some sort of emergency, or b) ignored the whole thing. Not many men were humble enough to remove their hats for 5 minutes. A pity.


Not to digress any further, but I find it sad that after saying "never again", there are still some parts of the world where genocide is not an issue in the history books, but rather in the newspapers. This is simply unacceptable.

VF-29_Sandman
01-27-2005, 07:47 PM
if being under fire wasnt bad enough, the troops that liberated the camps saw a horror that made combat look tame. the ss that ran those camps had to have been the most evil men on earth.

Bearcat99
01-27-2005, 10:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sharkey888:
Was there in August-very sad indeed! I was also in Warsaw during the anniversary of the Uprising-they rang the air raid sirens for about 5 minutes, that was also very emotional!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. I was in Krakow during the 60th anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising. Unfortunately, I was unable to be in Warsaw at the time. If I remember correctly, they also ran air raid sirens. I was at the Market Square at 1700 the moment it happened. Unfortunately, maybe due to the fact that many people there were foreign tourists, or maybe due to sheer ignorance (which should be a sin), people either a) thought there was some sort of emergency, or b) ignored the whole thing. Not many men were humble enough to remove their hats for 5 minutes. A pity.


Not to digress any further, but I find it sad that after saying "never again", there are still some parts of the world where genocide is not an issue in the history books, but rather in the newspapers. This is simply unacceptable. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rawanda..... Sudan........ to name a few..

nearmiss
01-27-2005, 11:24 PM
Don't think I don't care about the Auschwitz thing, you'd be wrong.

Auschwitz was only the tip of the iceberg. There were terrible depraved acts of murder and mayhem all over the world during WW2, and in mass quantities as well. They may not have been gassed and cremated, but many were shot enmasse and dumped into mass graves. There were death marches in the all over the Western and Eastern war theatres, the Pacific Islands, and death camps as well.

The reason I felt like it wasn't a good thread is because all these deep fundamental issues about human rights issues are heavy stuff for a flight simulator boards.

So...I hope no one thinks my off topic comments were anything, but that...OFF TOPIC for these boards.

woofiedog
01-27-2005, 11:35 PM
Yehuda Bacon
1945: 'It was a miracle to leave Auschwitz'
Czech-born Yehuda Bacon was just 14 years old when he arrived at Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp in December 1943.
Six months later his father was killed in the gas chambers. His mother and sister, Hanna, were sent to another camp in Austria where they died two weeks before the war ended.

Sixty years after the liberation of the Nazi concentration camps, he tells the story of his survival to his daughter, BBC On This Day journalist Hanna White.

"I remember the day I left Auschwitz very well - January 18 1945.

The Russians were coming nearer and the Germans were emptying the camp, sending those who could work to other camps.

Only a couple of thousand prisoners were left and we knew we would be sent away but we didn't know where.

I had been there a whole year so I had good connections with prisoners who had important jobs like distributing clothes. Those prisoners had been told to get clothes ready for those who were leaving.

It was a miracle to leave Auschwitz. But that was the beginning of the so-called death march.

We didn't know what lay ahead and actually the last months of the war until May 1945 were the worst and it is a wonder that I survived.

But I had hope. I always had hope because that was the only thing that was left.

Death march to Mauthausen

It took about three days and it was the winter and very cold. Anyone who couldn't continue, who was last in line, was shot. There were a lot of people that were shot.

My friends and I helped each other to drag ourselves along day and night on foot.

After that first death march to Mauthausen camp in Austria I said to myself, "Thank God my father went to the gas chambers." He wouldn't have been able to do what I had done - it was too much and too horrible.

After two and a half months there we were sent on another death march to Gunskirchen in Austria, a camp in the middle of a forest. There were no facilities, no food, water or clothes.

Liberation

We were liberated on 5 May.

That morning the guards had abandoned the camp but they had poisoned the food before they left.

When we realised the guards had gone we rushed to the store room to look for food.

I tried to take a huge piece of margarine.

Another prisoner, who was still strong, wanted to steal it from me. I held it tight in my pocket, so he just took a razor, opened the pocket and took it away.

But he actually saved my life because not only had it been poisoned but my body wasn't used to so much food and I would have died if I had eaten it.

All the other prisoners went to the nearest village, which was overwhelmed by so many starving people. The villagers gave them food and they died just from eating this food because their bodies weren't used to it.

My friend Wolfie and I went in the opposite direction because we had this crazy idea to go to Switzerland.

We didn't know how far it was but we thought in Switzerland there was the Red Cross and we could get some information about what was going on.

After walking for about an hour we met some American soldiers and they helped us. We only knew a few words in English and we asked for bread.

They said, "We are so sorry, we don't have bread. We are the first ones here - but we can give you some cookies and some little bits of cheese"!

But I couldn't even swallow one bite of this wonderful cheese. I was very ill by then and had a high fever - we both had typhoid.

The soldiers had been told not to take any of the camp prisoners with them because of the diseases they might have.

Luckily one of these soldiers was Jewish and he took us to a hospital in Steier, Austria.

He also spoke German and threatened the hospital staff with his gun saying: "These boys had better survive, or else." And the Catholic nuns who ran this hospital cured us - they were very kind. But we were the only two ex-prisoners in this hospital so they were able to help us.

It was then that I looked in the mirror for the first time in three years and I was horrified by my own face. But slowly I got used it, I recovered and went to Prague.

At that time I hoped that my sister and mother were alive. But I later found out they had died in Stutthof camp in Poland two weeks before the end of the war. They had survived typhus but were given no food, so they died of hunger.

Trying to tell our story

After the war, I dedicated my life to being an artist - at first to describe what I saw, in a childish way.

Later I realised people were not interested in these stories - neither in Europe, nor in Israel. I guess our stories were too strong, too unbelievable, too hard to understand or they just couldn't bear it.

They would go quiet when I started to tell them something. I thought I would tell them and people would learn and behave better.

I think I am somehow obliged because I survived to tell the story of the people who didn't survive but what happens to the story is beyond my control. I hope that maybe someone, some time, somewhere will learn something from it.

My drawings were used in trials and books about the Holocaust. I thought I had to draw, I had to say what I experienced in the hope that someone would learn from it.

In Israel they have one day of commemoration of the Holocaust every year where they have films and lectures and so on - a little too much, in my opinion.

But that is mainly for the other people who didn't experience it. For us, the ones who survived, we live with it every day. We don't have to have a special day.

I know some people are so full of hate they won't speak to Germans and so on.

But thanks to the most wonderful people I met after the war who somehow spiritually and mentally saved me I came to the conclusion that you can forgive someone who accepts their own guilt.

I was a teacher for 35 years and I tried through education to tell my story. That is more constructive than the destructive forces of hate, which mainly kills your own self."

MO_JOJO
01-28-2005, 04:45 AM
It's beyond shameful. Plain evil...that's what those nazis were. To think what especially the little children suffered, and these guys loved their jobs.

The Japanese were guilty too. Lookup the Chinese Holocaust sometime...Unit 731, Nanking, Manchuria, Shanghai. They say 35 million destroyed by the Imperial army.

Just keep in mind what people are capable of...I'm not just talking about the guards, the SS, and the "doctors". I mean, think of the people who knew this was happening and looked the other way. A nation allowed this to happen, and if it happened to a good nation like Germany, it could happen to any of us if we're not careful. I believe that. Remember this and stand up for what's right when you see injustice. Rosa Parks did...the power of one!

chaikanut
01-28-2005, 05:30 AM
It is important to remember how such things came to be in the first place. There are plenty of f*cks like Hitler and Himmler out there, in some countries governments, and even more stupid little ment unwilling or unable to stand up against to what is clearly wrong.

VF-29_Sandman
01-28-2005, 06:07 AM
i read an article in the newspaper here covering the liberation. most young people today have no clue. they didnt even know exactly WHAT auschwitz was, let alone what happened there. it said of mis-directed anger...not at those that committed the holocost, but at the survivors; never thinking that, had they been alive back then, THEY would have been sent to those camps.

its imperitive that the concentration camp, the atrocities of ww2, the holocost..never be allowed to fade away. those that fail to learn from the past are bound to repeat it.

the nazi's just didnt care who died in the camps. their disregard for life says it all. what happened there has to be 'evil incarnate'. i just cant see how any sane person could do what was done there...willingly.

ASM 1
01-28-2005, 06:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
So...I hope no one thinks my off topic comments were anything, but that...OFF TOPIC for these boards. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I take your point nearmiss, but if you'll read my first post again, I was in NO WAY trying to provoke intense debate on the subject, I agree it is a little heavy for a board such as this, and I am pleased to see that my thread hasn't degenerated into such a discussion - although people have highlighted (and rightly so) other despicable acts by humankind.

I'll now attempt to justify my motivation for posting such a thread.

I posted this because with yesterday being the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the camp, I felt strongly that this deserved a bit more attention than (getting lost) in the "Today In World War 2 history" thread would have given it- and I mean no disrespect to woofiedog who posted in there.... but its on page 5 of that thread.

As for being to heavy for flight sim boards well ehm... Its not that hard to put a swastika on a luftwaffe aircraft... I'd like to think that most of the people who do (and I am one) know EXACTLY what that symbolises. Apart from it being "historically accurate" - so I refute your objecdtion to this thread... if WE as a community can't handle the stark truth of what that symbol stood for.... then there is something far wrong surely?

"BUT ITS A GAME!" I hear you shout... true, but it is also centred upon one of the darkest periods of 20th century (granted the luftwaffe had nothing to do with the camps, but they still fought on the side of the regime)... culminating in the systematic slaughter of people deemed "undesirables". So lets be careful not to trivialise things here... yes our beloved game is nice and "safe", but surely - a thread like this has its place, given the "wider picture" of the period in question...

this is not a personal attack on nearmiss, nor should it be taken as such... I merely want to clarify my intentions about posting this thread. Whether I was wrong to do so is for others judge (sounds rather pious I know, forgive me)

I hope I have conducted things reasonably...



Andrew

XyZspineZyX
01-28-2005, 06:35 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Hello,

Let us never forget that "extremist's" religious or political but also economical ones do this to peoples that are not of the same opinion than them! And that this sort of peoples do still exist and are once again showing their ugly faces... more camps of that sort are not far away!

Have a nice time.

Sensei.

huggy87
01-28-2005, 09:49 AM
Auschwitz was definitely a new low for humanity. Genocide was certainly nothing new- but when combined with modern industrial efficiency it is frightening.

As an aside, I heard a prominent Jewish leader quoted on the radio yesterday. He said something to the effect that nobody cared about the jews- everyone turned a blind eye- and hence 6 million died. Excuse me, but millions of allies died liberating them. For every jew who died, about 4-5 allied soldiers and civilians perished either defending their homelands or liberating themselves and the Jews. If it weren't for their brave sacrifices ALL 11 million european jews would have been slaughtered. I just thought this gentleman lost sight of the forest from the trees.

Sharkey888
01-28-2005, 10:24 AM
Sorry Huggy, but your logic is all wrong.

I think the liberation of the Jews was just a "side effect" of the Allies winning the War. Nobody really tried directly to help.

civildog
01-28-2005, 10:44 AM
I think the old man can be forgiven his bitterness.

He was probably thinking of the ships full of European jews trying to leave Germany while they still could that were being turned away by the US (to our shame) because of diplomatic reasons.

The escapees of camps tried to tell the Allies what was going on, and begged that the camps be targeted to bombing, but the Allied command reluctantly refused: it was felt that bombing the military and heavy industrial targets would end it all faster.

A lot of people in the German-occupied countries collaborated in the Final Solution (...watch "Shoah" - it's the best documentary you will ever see on the Holocaust, particularly in this area) and took away from the Jewish families what property they had gladly.

As more and more documentation comes out of captured Nazi archives from Russian and other sources the enormity of industrialized genocide becomes clearer. Re: the PBS series last week on the development of Auschwitz, from the first use of CO gas to kill ******ed children and adults in "showers" at the medical euthanasia centers to the Final Solution on an industrial scale. It also showed the records of the minutes of the meeting which took pace in 1940 about the systematic starving off of the Russians to provide "living space" for the new German Eastern District where Auschwitz would be a housing center for the slaves to live who cleaned, cooked, and worked for the Germans. The most horrific quote from that meeting was, "The Russians' stomachs are elastic, they will learn to cope or starve. Let's not be worry too much about it."

The Jews were largely ignored in the beginning by the Allies as "not our problem", and then as a resource for war production (even as war material in some instances!), medical experimentation, and just as vermin to be exterminated by the Gemans. After the war the jews had to fight for years to gain what samll reparations were finally paid to them. Entire villages and towns were emptied of European Jews. Who wouldn't be bitter after that?

Here the Luftwaffe played it's role in the camps: high-altitude apoxia and freezing water exposure experiments were conducted by the Luftwaffe in the Aushwitz-Birkenau and other places so better survival equipment and pressurized cockpit design could be developed to help the pilots fight and survive bailouts better. The photos documenting the experiments taken by the Luftwaffe officers handling the work are ghastly..no one's hands are clean in regards to any branch of the German military..even the rifle shells and cannons were made by slaves in the giant Krupp plants next to the camps. Luftwaffe aircraft were built by slaves.

As I said, the old man has the right to be bitter. The Allies gave thier lives in the end to stop the war, but it is the entire world's responsibility now to ensure it never ever happens again. That we never forget!

And people are already starting to forget, more young people today than before even deny it ever happened, and because of that the world allows events like Rwanada, the Sudan, Somalia, etc. to happen again and again. People don't want to believe in "collective guilt" (read "collective CIVIL RESPONSIBILITY" here), they say, "Let the past be the past and forget about it."

It's shocking and disgusting.

TacticalYak3
01-28-2005, 10:45 AM
Nearmiss I understand what you are saying mate, but given all the nonesense that is debated in this forum, I think we can afford a few bytes here to remember this event. To do otherwise is to run the risk of forgetting. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

ASM 1
01-28-2005, 11:09 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif thanks tactical.... my point exactly (although yours is more succinctly put http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CivilDog:
Here the Luftwaffe played it's role in the camps: high-altitude apoxia and freezing water exposure experiments were conducted by the Luftwaffe in the Aushwitz-Birkenau and other places so better survival equipment and pressurized cockpit design could be developed to help the pilots fight and survive bailouts better. The photos documenting the experiments taken by the Luftwaffe officers handling the work are ghastly..no one's hands are clean in regards to any branch of the German military..even the rifle shells and cannons were made by slaves in the giant Krupp plants next to the camps. Luftwaffe aircraft were built by slaves.

It's shocking and disgusting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

urgh... forgot about that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif ... I stand corrected http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

huggy87
01-28-2005, 12:09 PM
Sharkey and Civildog. You are both right. I certainly don't believe that the allies went into to liberate the jews. That was a side effect, as you said. Heck, look at how many times we have turned a blind eye towards genocide since. Cambodia, Rwanda, etc. My point was that considering the overall number of dead the allies suffered, his comments were self-centered and ingrateful. To be fair, the allies did not know the full extent of the 'final solution'- not that it would have changed the course of the war much even if they had.

nearmiss
01-28-2005, 02:27 PM
Rwanda, Sudan, Cambodia, Laos, Kosovo, Serbia, Somalia, the list goes on...and it'll be added to within the year.

I found it interesting how the American Generals compelled the Germans that lived in proximity of the various death camps to tour those camps to see what the heck they had condoned after they secured the camps. Those people were guilty, because they knew what horrible CR#P was going on. So the generals made them walk in the CR#P...coool. That of course is nothing, because you cannot communicate suffering without enduring it.

Aushwitz is a grievous thing for me or any person who believes in human rights. I agree that even a little media hype is better than none, but I personally don't think it's gonna mean much.

LStarosta
01-28-2005, 03:14 PM
Furthermore, let us not forget how the Luftwaffe often strafed civilians, including children, women and the elderly as they were going about their everyday business. It is not difficult to find first hand accounts of Bf109's and Ju87's strafing people as they collected crops, bicycled down roads, or kids who played in school yards. To them it was just "target practice", a fun shooting range where targets weren't stationary, nor would they shoot back. Let us also not forget how the Luftwaffe, both in the Spanish Civil War, and in September of 1939, conducted gruesome tests of new ordnance by leveling towns almost completely... towns which held no industrial targets, and were strategically unimportant. While I am aware that both sides were equally guilty of bombing urban centers, there seems to be a particularly nauseating air of evil when one considers how unnecessary the leveling of rural villages and small towns is to achieve any objective.

I fly Luftwaffe aircraft as well, and I fly with realistic skins. But I do hesitate each time I see that swastika on my vertical stabilizer. No matter how much I try to think that whoever flew this plane back in the war was probably a good man etc, etc, I still cannot get over the fact that under this symbol, millions of people were slaughtered.

p-39driver
01-28-2005, 03:31 PM
I think we humans have a very twisted streak residing within us.

To be capable of even thinking about performing such twisted things.....

civildog
01-28-2005, 04:44 PM
Before this goes too far off course I'd like to try to bring this thread back to what it ought to be about. It's not supposd to be about the Germans, the Luftwaffe (sorry, I had to mention it though.. people forget the sheer scale of the death camp/slave industry system and how it wasn't just about the SS), or anything like that.

This a very important day of remembrance.

Every Nation and people has a day of remembrance for it's dead. The reason for this being percieved as day primarily about the Jews who died is because the camp system didn't really reach it's main "purpose" until the Final Solution. Then the concentration camps began being turned into (and many new ones built) death camps...like Treblinka, Birkenau, and all the others with a rail spur going in but not coming back out. According to records, the rail line to Auschwitz-Birkenau was the busiest in the system during the last 3 years of the war.

This day is here for two reasons:

To remember ALL those who died in the concentration and death camps, to remember those who died in the slave labor factories and to fulfill the sick dreams of hatred that a few used to drive a people insane enough to have had this happen. To honor the deaths of all those who died, innocent of any crime other than not being "Aryan" enough, for trying to stand up to the Nazis in the early steet-fighting days, for being POWs (hundreds of thousands of Russian POWs went into those camps, including the ones who were used to build Auschwitz-Birkenau and then used to find "easier" ways to kill the Jews en masse) from conquered lands, for those of any faith who had the courage to stand up to the Nazis, for being among the 6 million European Jews. It is particularly important for the Jewish people because they were the special target of the camp system. They were even degraded by it to the point of being forced to help run it (in the case of the Sonderkommando and the slave factories that fed the German war machine). In their case it was not for political or military reasons you would be sent there, but just because you were Jewish and it didn't matter if you were man, woman, or child, 5 years old, 50 years old.

This day is to honor all of the innocents who died for the Thousand Year dream on a scale that you cannot even begin to appreciate until you do some serious research. And if you do, and I urge you to, and pass on what you learn to those who are forgetting then you will understand the second reason for this day of remembrance.

That we never, never forget the responsibility that it is the responsibility of the entire world..not the Germans, the U.S., the UN, the EU, ..but that of all mankind...that this sort of evil must never happen again.

As long as we try to achieve this seemingly impossible goal, as long as we try to stop tyrants from slaughtering innocents, as long as we try to stop the madmen who preach hatred merely because of race, creed, nationality then we honor will honor the dead of the camps.

Extreme_One
01-28-2005, 04:45 PM
Keep things sensible guys or you know where this thread is headed.

civildog
01-28-2005, 04:47 PM
Extreme_One...

I just tried, but I can't type fast enough.

heywooood
01-28-2005, 06:04 PM
in rememberance of the victims of tyranny, racism, oppression, and religious fervor everywhere and throughout our collective history, for that is what it is ....crimes of this nature committed against anyone of us, is committed against all of us, be sure.

Aaron_GT
01-29-2005, 03:14 AM
And let's also remember the Romanies, mentally ill, mentally ******ed, slavs, members of the German anti-Nazi resistance etc. who were also slaughtered in the concentration camps, death camps, in the streets, or in hospitals too. The level of death dealt to many groups by the Nazis in WW2 was truly sickening. Let's also not forget that the concentration camps for political prisoners started up in the early 1930s and few spoke out then.

falco_cz
01-29-2005, 04:42 AM
Also we need to NOT forget the soviet concentraion camps where milions were killed even more brutaly, but almost no documentary about the crimes are in existent..because USSR were never defeated in a war....

x6BL_Brando
01-29-2005, 05:43 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1241.gif

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/BergenBelsen/ConcentrationCamp.html
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>soviet concentraion camps where milions were killed even more brutaly <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"more brutally"? You don't know what you're talking about. There is no sliding scale on the gathering-together of defenceless people and then torturing & murdering them. There may be more or less people involved, but the level of brutality is not something that changes.

VF-29_Sandman
01-29-2005, 07:17 AM
just wondering: is there a rememberance day for the warsaw uprising? during the uprising, the jews knew what was going down, and they decided to die fighting than to be systematically shipped to the camps and slaughtered.

Aaron_GT
01-29-2005, 11:08 AM
" but almost no documentary about the crimes are in existent.."

It's also an issue of information. Until the breakup of the Soviet Union reliable information was hard to come by. There have been a number programmes on Channel 4 and BBC since 1990 covering the Soviet camps, but Nazi atrocities seems to be the more common subject for documentaries. In fact all things Nazi seem to be more likely to be covered in documentaries, perhaps because the sick and twisted nature of the Nazi regime and its sheer insanity makes it compulsive but uncomfortable viewing. Not that Stalin was any less sick, but his mental illness was of a different nature. (I can't think anything but these two sick individuals being mentally ill in some way as they were so beyond the pale with respect to human behaviour).

Aaron_GT
01-29-2005, 11:09 AM
"in rememberance of the victims of tyranny, racism, oppression, and religious fervor everywhere and throughout our collective history, for that is what it is ....crimes of this nature committed against anyone of us, is committed against all of us, be sure."

Excellent words to live by, heywood.

nearmiss
01-29-2005, 11:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VF-29_Sandman:
just wondering: is there a rememberance day for the warsaw uprising? during the uprising, the jews knew what was going down, and they decided to die fighting than to be systematically shipped to the camps and slaughtered. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I recall reading Exodus by Leon Uris the Warsaw Ghetto was created to isolate the Jews to better control them. The Jews determined, probably quite easily the Germans intended to destroy them, afterall their ability to make a living was restricted to the Ghetto area.

I'm amazed today the Jews are building their own Warsaw Ghetto by fencing in the Palestinians. Just like Hitler did it, fence'em, take away all the ability to make a living.

Pretty lousy commentary eh? Before it's done the Jews will be as guilty of crimes against humanity as well. Amazing how things come full circle isn't it?

LStarosta
01-29-2005, 11:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VF-29_Sandman:
just wondering: is there a rememberance day for the warsaw uprising? during the uprising, the jews knew what was going down, and they decided to die fighting than to be systematically shipped to the camps and slaughtered. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Wrong uprising. The Jewish Ghetto Uprising was totally seperate from the Warsaw Uprising which occured roughly a year later. It is notable to mention that the Polish Home Army, which began the uprising, was acknowledged combatant status, unlike many other underground resistance organizations. That meant that if they were captured, they would, according to the Geneva Convention, have to be treated as a prisoner of war. Unfortunately, Germany refused to recognize this little detail on more than one occasion.



Anyway, before we turn this into a huge debate, which it shouldn't be, I say we all cut this short, and maybe ask a Mod to lock this thread before it gets out of hand, rather than after the incident.

nearmiss
01-29-2005, 01:46 PM
These kinds of threads always get locked.

It was off-topic to start, and dealt with a hard issue. Hard issues always bring alot of smoke and fire commentary.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

MrOblongo
01-29-2005, 02:20 PM
Ill just say this:

History is written by the winners http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.