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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 10:23 AM
When I first booted up Il2 and played a single player mission for starters I was amused when I was verbally accosted for not staying on the leaders course or by my tail gunner for pulling an erratic maneuver. I thought, ok, these Russians are a bit course, but also, honest in their approach to the game. This game is intended to simulate aerial combat in WWII and this, by design, should also simulate real life behavior. I'm quite sure the game is considerably watered down compared to real life.

All three of my daughters, ages 10 to 15 have seen this game and also exhibited a little chuckle for the same events. None of them use profanity in any of their daily conversations. They are all beautiful well behaved children and know that life is not all sugar and spice and everything is nice. My youngest, loves to shoot down aircraft in flight sims and IL2FB is her favorite game as well. We really get into the action and she finds it very exciting. Her callsign is "Major Baby Cakes".

All three of my daughters regularly watch war movies with their grandfather as this is his favorite passtime. He has been in actual combat during his lifetime and this is important to him. None of my daughters have suffered any behavioral modifications as a result of this either. Some of the dialogue in the movies is a bit course as well.

All three of my daughters have witnessed their father "lose it" while exploding his thumb as he attempts to drive a nail with his hammer and misses. The result of this is immediate attempts at first aid etc. by three very caring loving children.

I am not saying that my daughters are picture perfect either. We all have those little moments where we lose our self control or lack proper judgment. This is part of life and the maturing process and we deal with it the best we can.

During my upbringing my experiences with adults and media were very similar to this as well. As an adult I am not perfect and catch myself using profanity on occasion. Sometimes this must result in an apology to others for my behavior. But we try to mind our manners I should hope.

As a child I befriended a family that appeared picture perfect in every way. This was a large family and a couple of their children were my regular playmates. There was no abuse in this family during the time that I knew them. The children frowned on the use of profanity. The family regularly attended church and the parents tried hard to raise their children to become well adjusted, well behaved adults. As we got into our teens things went wrong for a few of their children. The use of profanity introduced itself and things went slowly downhill from this point. Sometimes things just don't work out despite all our efforts. Some of our behavior will simply be a result of our own physiological makeup. Some people will develop a tendency towards bad behavior no matter what their upbringing.

I guess we all try to raise our children the best we know how and also hope that they make it through to adulthood relatively unscathed. Life is not always a bed of Roses and we must learn this from life experience and from others as well. We must also learn and understand why people behave and act inappropriately at times due to the situations they are in. Sometimes the individual will meet with our disapproval for their behavior and at other times our sympathy.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 10:23 AM
When I first booted up Il2 and played a single player mission for starters I was amused when I was verbally accosted for not staying on the leaders course or by my tail gunner for pulling an erratic maneuver. I thought, ok, these Russians are a bit course, but also, honest in their approach to the game. This game is intended to simulate aerial combat in WWII and this, by design, should also simulate real life behavior. I'm quite sure the game is considerably watered down compared to real life.

All three of my daughters, ages 10 to 15 have seen this game and also exhibited a little chuckle for the same events. None of them use profanity in any of their daily conversations. They are all beautiful well behaved children and know that life is not all sugar and spice and everything is nice. My youngest, loves to shoot down aircraft in flight sims and IL2FB is her favorite game as well. We really get into the action and she finds it very exciting. Her callsign is "Major Baby Cakes".

All three of my daughters regularly watch war movies with their grandfather as this is his favorite passtime. He has been in actual combat during his lifetime and this is important to him. None of my daughters have suffered any behavioral modifications as a result of this either. Some of the dialogue in the movies is a bit course as well.

All three of my daughters have witnessed their father "lose it" while exploding his thumb as he attempts to drive a nail with his hammer and misses. The result of this is immediate attempts at first aid etc. by three very caring loving children.

I am not saying that my daughters are picture perfect either. We all have those little moments where we lose our self control or lack proper judgment. This is part of life and the maturing process and we deal with it the best we can.

During my upbringing my experiences with adults and media were very similar to this as well. As an adult I am not perfect and catch myself using profanity on occasion. Sometimes this must result in an apology to others for my behavior. But we try to mind our manners I should hope.

As a child I befriended a family that appeared picture perfect in every way. This was a large family and a couple of their children were my regular playmates. There was no abuse in this family during the time that I knew them. The children frowned on the use of profanity. The family regularly attended church and the parents tried hard to raise their children to become well adjusted, well behaved adults. As we got into our teens things went wrong for a few of their children. The use of profanity introduced itself and things went slowly downhill from this point. Sometimes things just don't work out despite all our efforts. Some of our behavior will simply be a result of our own physiological makeup. Some people will develop a tendency towards bad behavior no matter what their upbringing.

I guess we all try to raise our children the best we know how and also hope that they make it through to adulthood relatively unscathed. Life is not always a bed of Roses and we must learn this from life experience and from others as well. We must also learn and understand why people behave and act inappropriately at times due to the situations they are in. Sometimes the individual will meet with our disapproval for their behavior and at other times our sympathy.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 10:29 AM
Popov_Smirnov wrote:

- Life is not always a
- bed of Roses

No. You're right. Sometimes it's a box of chocolates! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Anyway, I agree. Good post. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

cheers/slush

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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

T_O_A_D
11-10-2003, 10:42 AM
Agreed! Popov_Smirnov

I have 2 of those loving daughter's 14 and 16 pretty much the same here too.

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 10:49 AM
Good post.

But I still think GD is inappropriate.

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 10:51 AM
Btw, why the hell are we all posting at 5 AM?

Im writing a Narrative Essay for English due at 8:15 Pm today, so whats your excuse? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif



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T_O_A_D
11-10-2003, 10:53 AM
Its just shy of 4 am here and I'm at work for 2 more Dang hours /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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<font size="1" color="black">After eating an entire bull, a mountain
lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a
hunter came along and shot him...
The moral: when you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut!</font>
<font size="0" color="#59626B">

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 11:02 AM
T_O_A_D wrote:
- Its just shy of 4 am here and I'm at work for 2 more
- Dang hours -

The night shift..man..dont you miss the sun? My friend had a night job at a grocery store up the street a few years back and he got very depressed after a while. Myself, I like the night, but I couldn't stand having to sleep every day for any extended period of time.




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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 11:08 AM
Well, I fell asleep early last evening and am up bright and early this AM. Figured I would beat the Robins to the worms.


Message Edited on 11/10/0310:11AM by Popov_Smirnov

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 11:15 AM
Popov_Smirnov wrote:
- Well, I fell asleep early last evening and am up
- bright and early this AM. Figured I would beat the
- Robins to the worms.


I'm glad you did, you have some good points. Just know that this community is fresh off a multi-page thread about profanity, so be prepared to bail. The other one got a tad ugly./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Well, off to write my paper, you all have a nice day!



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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 11:57 AM
I am puzzled,i thought that profanity was bad language,swearing general vicious verbal abuse.I don't know which F/B you've got but the worst i've heard on mine is the leader of a group,[not always yours ,which adds to the confusion ]giving instructions on course changes or telling you to get back into formation.
I;ve heard alot worse than that in real life from kiddies.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:02 PM
The 'worst' thing said is 'g0ddamn' I believe, I don't see the problem.

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'Smoke and a pancake?'</center>


Message Edited on 11/10/0312:02PM by oFZo

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:09 PM
For those of us that are Christian and do take the ten comandments seriously (taking Gods name in vain) it is a problem and I run with no voices most of the time. I also find it very boring

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:16 PM
shadow-catcher wrote:
- For those of us that are Christian and do take the
- ten comandments seriously (taking Gods name in vain)
- it is a problem and I run with no voices most of the
- time. I also find it very boring
-

Must be ...

How much fun can a WW2 flight-sim be, if you take the ten commandments seriously? (Thou Shall Not Kill).

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif slush


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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:24 PM
Slush69 wrote:
-
- -
- How much fun can a WW2 flight-sim be, if you take
- the ten commandments seriously? (Thou Shall Not
- Kill).


Incoming!


/Mad



Comsa (http://www.comsa.co.uk)



"When the hunter comes, the tiger runs with the deer."
<font color=59626b>

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:24 PM
Well I'm sure most of you would know that the language on the German side is heavy with a lot of SH!T's being dished out when they have a bandit on their six.

Personally, I too find it boring with no swearing.

Codex

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:40 PM
On this subject, I'm thinking of a sentence from Michel Audiard: "quand les cons voleront, tu seras chef d'escadrille" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:46 PM
I agree with the comment made about being religous and killing,but thinking about it most wars are started in the name of religion.
Typical isn't it,in the eyes of religious people i am probably a heathen,but i've not started wars and know the difference between right and wrong,oh well,one of the strange facts of life.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:56 PM
Wars are an extension of politics, perpetrated by the conflicting aims of individuals and groups.

Religion is just a tool used by those who would wage war, as any other military or political factor.

The mideast conflict isn't about religion, it is a clash of ideologies, and the quest to stay in power and rule the sandbox. If a leader can cite religeous beliefs to convince people to blow themselves up to fulfil the aims of the state, he will play it up for all its worth. It doesn't make the conflict about religion. Wars usually have other root causes.




Message Edited on 11/10/0305:57AM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 02:01 PM
StG77_Fennec wrote:
- Wars are an extension of politics, perpetrated by
- the conflicting aims of individuals and groups.
-
- Religion is just a tool used by those who would wage
- war, as any other military or political factor.
-
- The mideast conflict isn't about religion, it is a
- clash of ideologies, and the quest to stay in power
- and rule the sandbox. If a leader can cite
- religeous beliefs to convince people to blow
- themselves up to fulfil the aims of the state, he
- will play it up for all its worth. It doesn't make
- the conflict about religion. Wars usually have
- other root causes.
-
-
-
-
-
- Message Edited on 11/10/03 05:57AM by
- StG77_Fennec


I agree with the comments that religon is a tool used to get people to fight,but surely if they believe in a greater good and peace then they should be the first ones to put down their weapons and refuse violence.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 02:31 PM
trumper wrote:
-
- I agree with the comments that religon is a tool
- used to get people to fight,but surely if they
- believe in a greater good and peace then they should
- be the first ones to put down their weapons and
- refuse violence.
-

Thats dumb. Its a cop-out. Thanks for trying to compartmentalize and simplify mankinds greatest gift to himself.

If a bus is about to run you over, your instincts cause you to move out of the way. Its natural for a self-aware being to protect itself.

The same goes for wars. When a group of people can be stirred into a frenzy, and then marched into foriegn land to enforce thier own ideas of 'right', the people in those lands must get the hell out of the way, fight the oncoming plague, or take on a new master.

Don't play that card, it only shows how ignorant you are to others feelings. May the bus run you over.

As to the other comment about 'taking the lords name in vain':
Saying "God damn" contains nothing 'vain'. Its hogwash. Get over this myth.

Lets take the meaning of the word vain:
Not yielding the desired outcome; fruitless: a vain attempt.
Lacking substance or worth: vain talk.
Excessively proud of one's appearance or accomplishments; conceited.
Archaic. Foolish.

Idiom:
in vain
To no avail; without success: Our labor was in vain.
In an irreverent or disrespectful manner.

The last line says it all. If one says "god sucks!", he has taken the lords name in vain. However, asking god to damn something, or even DEMANDING that he damn something is not disrespectful. Futile, but in no way vain (relative to that particular definition, which is freakin hilarious to me).

EDIT: I guess one could say that prayer could be considered 'taking his name in vain'. If you ask god to release you of burden, you are asking him to take away something that, according to traditional belief, he created to begin with. Talk about an exercise in futility! This would indeed be vain, and therefore should not be done. No more prayers from now on.

So, for those who get uptight about taking the lords name in vain, i suggest you lighten up, and explore a dictionary some time. Possibly think about learning your religon without someone spoon-feeding it to you.



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Message Edited on 11/10/0311:59AM by BaldieJr

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 02:45 PM
Good post - like your laid-back attitude. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

S!

M0NS (authorized P39 pyrotechnician)



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 02:46 PM
Kids sound like a nice thing to have. Too bad I'm one.

Boosher-PBNA
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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 05:39 PM
From my humble experience, the way people react to profanity really depends on the cultural backgroud.

In America, swear words on TV are beeped out, nudity without black stripes hiding it is forbidden, etc... (makes me think of a quote of the movie "Apocalypse Now": "They teach kids to drop fire on people but won't let them write 'f*ck' on their airplanes because it's obscene")

In Europe (and probably in Russia), things are a bit different. People a much more relaxed about swear words (at least, if the kids are more than 7 odd years old). You hear them on TV anytime of the day (but not in excess). I've heard that in scandinavian countries like Sweden they were even more liberal and showed integral nudity (not necesseraly sex, after all people are naked under their clothes...) on daytime TV without it shocking anyone.

It's cultural, and the world is a big place full of people who share different values and don't think the same, and americans in particular have to be aware of that because some of them tend to forget that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oleg will think it's OK to have swear words in the game and will see no problem with it (and neither do I), somebody else from a different cultural background will think differently, and take the measures that he deems appropriate (like wearing headphones).

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 05:53 PM
karlzeiss wrote:
-
- It's cultural, and the world is a big place full of
- people who share different values and don't think
- the same, and americans in particular have to be
- aware of that because some of them tend to forget
- that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
-

Intolerance does not negate intolerance.

I have a lot of very bad things to say to you, but I wont because i'd just be wasting my time.

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_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 06:15 PM
karlzeiss wrote:
- It's cultural, and the world is a big place full of
- people who share different values and don't think
- the same, and americans in particular have to be
- aware of that because some of them tend to forget
- that /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

It is cultural. And on matters of "swearing" and nudity I think that Europe is *far* more mature than the US. We are still suffering from Puritanical roots it seems. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 06:33 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
-
- karlzeiss wrote:
--
-- It's cultural, and the world is a big place full of
-- people who share different values and don't think
-- the same, and americans in particular have to be
-- aware of that because some of them tend to forget
-- that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
--
-
- Intolerance does not negate intolerance.
-
- I have a lot of very bad things to say to you, but I
- wont because i'd just be wasting my time.

I have to stress on the "some", from the experiences I have had with americans. That doesn't mean ALL AMERICANS, by far, but it happens rather often with americans. Just speaking from experience. I'm sorry if you misinterpreted and apologize, I didn't mean to say that some people were better than others, and certainly don't believe so. Every culture has its peculiarities, good and bad.





Message Edited on 11/10/0305:35PM by karlzeiss

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 06:44 PM
The Not killing does not apply to a game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
And the wording is more, not Murder.
I have alwasy been interested in the "losing" side stories and saw growing up a number of the prop jobs left over from WWII. Forest fires in Califoirnia looked like campaigns with B17 PBY's B36's even sat TBF's dropping Borate. this does give away my age though.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 06:59 PM
As an Atheist I would like to complain about the reference to god in FB. After hearing a character shout 'god damn', my daughter of seven years asked me what it meant. It was very embarrassing to explain that alot of people delusionally think the Universe was designed and made by an some sort of all-powerful, intelligent entity. Lucky Ana was too intelligent to even entertain such a ludicrous idea, and dismissed immediately.

But what if I am not there the next time? What if a Christian sits next to her on the bus when she's with her friends, or accosts her in the street when she's playing and puts all these damaging ideas into her head about god and Jesus? It's happened to us all (several times).
I mean, have you ever been accosted by an Atheist in the street forcibly telling you their beliefs? Of course not! She doesn't stand a chance of forming her own opinion in the midst of such Christian coercion and pressure!

So please, remove these references from the game, as I am too lazy to wear headphones or edit my sound file folder.

Actually I shouldn't have an interest in war machines or simulated killing at all because, as a Humanist, my ideals are none violent. So not only are my priorities all screwed up, but I am a hypocrite too.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


<CENTER></CENTER>

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:03 PM
classic /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:07 PM
In my bible, Old Testament, the God of Israel, the God I believe in and worship this day, sanctioned the total annilation of tribes that stood in the way of His people reaching the land he promised to them in the time of Moses. I mean nothing was allowed to be left breathing including women and children and all the animals of that particular tribe of people.

So doing a little virtual killing playing FB dosen't bother me. The profanity I could do without, but there are alot of things I could do without pertaining to my personal relationship with God. S!

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:10 PM
Personally I think this thread is a pointless waste of time and resources.

Nuley - Man I love this game!

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:21 PM
Striker-PBNA wrote:
- In my bible, Old Testament, the God of Israel, the
- God I believe in and worship this day, sanctioned
- the total annilation of tribes that stood in the way
- of His people reaching the land he promised to them
- in the time of Moses. I mean nothing was allowed to
- be left breathing including women and children and
- all the animals of that particular tribe of people.

Boy, what a guy!


And capital L O L antifreeze. Maybe we *should* try to convert more people to atheism- u wanna knock on a few doors with me this Sunday? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif





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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:29 PM
You can't please everyone all of the time, don't like it don't play it... This has violance and a little bit of cussing, its for someone at a more mature level... maybe your daughters should stick to "SIMS"...

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:48 PM
Brock.Landers wrote:
- Striker-PBNA wrote:
-- In my bible, Old Testament, the God of Israel, the
-- God I believe in and worship this day, sanctioned
-- the total annilation of tribes that stood in the way
-- of His people reaching the land he promised to them
-- in the time of Moses. I mean nothing was allowed to
-- be left breathing including women and children and
-- all the animals of that particular tribe of people.
-
- Boy, what a guy!
-
-
- And capital L O L antifreeze. Maybe we *should* try
- to convert more people to atheism- u wanna knock on
- a few doors with me this Sunday? <img
-

The truth bothers you?

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 09:32 PM
WeStriker-PBNA wrote:
-
- Brock.Landers wrote:
-- Striker-PBNA wrote:
--- In my bible, Old Testament, the God of Israel, the
--- God I believe in and worship this day, sanctioned
--- the total annilation of tribes that stood in the way
--- of His people reaching the land he promised to them
--- in the time of Moses. I mean nothing was allowed to
--- be left breathing including women and children and
--- all the animals of that particular tribe of people.
--
-- Boy, what a guy!
--
--
-- And capital L O L antifreeze. Maybe we *should* try
-- to convert more people to atheism- u wanna knock on
-- a few doors with me this Sunday?
--
-
- The truth bothers you?

What truth is that Striker? Your truth? Well hey you've got it all written down haven't you so how can I argue?





<HR>
<center>http://www.misterwright.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/brockyaksig.jpg
<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#CCCCCC">Me on my hols in Russia</FONT></center>

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 09:56 PM
Brock.Landers wrote:
- What truth is that Striker? Your truth? Well hey
- you've got it all written down haven't you so how
- can I argue?

We do too. Just that ours is observable, checkable, and corroborated a hundred times over, compared to his 1 version that you just have to trust. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 10:04 PM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
- Brock.Landers wrote:
-- What truth is that Striker? Your truth? Well hey
-- you've got it all written down haven't you so how
-- can I argue?
-
- We do too. Just that ours is observable, checkable,
- and corroborated a hundred times over, compared to
- his 1 version that you just have to trust.

Wait, what is "ours"? Atheism, or am I mistaken?

I love when Atheists take that "science is the answer" approach. If you toss quantums, string theory, and probability at them the arguments dry up.

God is as real as the concrete between some peoples' ears. Science tells us that the probability of his/her existance is equal to the probability of his/her nonexistance. When you look at it logicly, God must exist, and his sense of humor is what makes him so much better than us.



<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 10:20 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
-
- God is as real as the concrete between some peoples'
- ears. Science tells us that the probability of
- his/her existance is equal to the probability of
- his/her nonexistance. When you look at it logicly,
- God must exist, and his sense of humor is what makes
- him so much better than us.
-

Hmm... is that why he put us here? No - I agree with you:
Science often claim to possess objective verifiable truth & therefore fail to accept the many factors not taken into consideration. But I will not subscribe to your logic proof of Gods existance - God is a Mysterium Tremendum et Fascinosum but not a fact - claiming God as a fact you can proove with logic contradicts God's own radical character resulting in hubris - as you put yourself in a position from where you can define God.

S!

M0NS (authorized P39 pyrotechnician)



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 10:29 PM
M0NS wrote:
-
- BaldieJr wrote:
--
-- God is as real as the concrete between some peoples'
-- ears. Science tells us that the probability of
-- his/her existance is equal to the probability of
-- his/her nonexistance. When you look at it logicly,
-- God must exist, and his sense of humor is what makes
-- him so much better than us.
--
-
- Hmm... is that why he put us here? No - I agree with
- you:
- Science often claim to possess objective verifiable
- truth & therefore fail to accept the many factors
- not taken into consideration. But I will not
- subscribe to your logic proof of Gods existance -
- God is a Mysterium Tremendum et Fascinosum but not a
- fact - claiming God as a fact you can proove with
- logic contradicts God's own radical character
- resulting in hubris - as you put yourself in a
- position from where you can define God.
-
- S!
-
- M0NS (authorized P39 pyrotechnician)
-
-
-
- "Blow up the outside world"
-

If god didn't exist we'd not be having this discussion.

Edit (oops, accidental posting prior to completion).
We all define God in our own way, and there is nothing at all wrong with that. If you believe, you should know this. I will play games with nonbelievers as they are always long on talk, but short on answers, but I do not argue with interpretations of God, as he/she is different to each and every one of us (except when zealots are involved... they are detrimental to all faiths).

I just happen to think he's VERY funny.

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Message Edited on 11/10/03 04:33PM by BaldieJr

Message Edited on 11/10/0304:37PM by BaldieJr

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 10:52 PM
Ya - wrong forum for this... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



Message Edited on 11/10/0309:54PM by M0NS

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 12:27 AM
BaldieJr wrote:
- If god didn't exist we'd not be having this discussion.

- When you look at it logicly, God must exist


Both those statements of 'fact' and 'logic' kinda excuse you from a debate on this that needs to contain both if it's to be worthwhile.

A couple of years back I had a Jehovah's Witness call on me. On a whim I decided I would argue with him about the existence of God. We went back and forth for probably 20 minutes, me talking (in lay-mans terms I admit) about evolution and how it bought us here and him taking me through the finer points of animals walking two by two. The guy was adamant the world was only about 4000 years old, I was adamant it was a couple of billion. It wasn't going anywhere until, kinda in desperation, I said "OK, explain dinosaur fossils!", he paused and I thought I had him until he said triumphantly "ahhh, but they were put here by God to test our faith!"
There wasn't really anywhere to go after that /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif He was just always going to believe those million year old carbon dated bones were planted there with a holy shovel under cover of darkness. And actually that's cool. He has his thing and I have mine. I'm kinda bored of this before its even kicked off though, we ain't going to change each others opinions Baldie but what we can do is respect them. Time for bed, night all /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif





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XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 01:32 PM
Religion is fine providing they keep it to themselves and don't go to war because of it,sorry but if you believe in something unprovable then thats up to you .
Those who believe in religion really should'nt be playing war games,should'nt own any stocks and shares in companies that they have no details about either.or even work for companies that may have inputs into anything that contridicts the bible or whatever you believe in.
I wonder how many people go to church or wherever to pray for forgiveness and then commit sins again afterwards,load of blooming hypocrites.
Some of the worst attrocities have been attributed to religion so don't expect me to respect them,

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 01:48 PM
What is this all about? I have naked woman for my nose art and every one can see it online!

"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

MicroSoft Most Wanted
http://www.angelfire.com/empire/the-aztek-eagles/oleg.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 02:11 PM
trumper wrote:
- Religion is fine providing they keep it to
- themselves and don't go to war because of it,sorry
- but if you believe in something unprovable then
- thats up to you .
- Those who believe in religion really should'nt be
- playing war games,should'nt own any stocks and
- shares in companies that they have no details about
- either.or even work for companies that may have
- inputs into anything that contridicts the bible or
- whatever you believe in.

Very logical indeed.
-
- I wonder how many people go to church or wherever
- to pray for forgiveness and then commit sins again
- afterwards,load of blooming hypocrites.

I wonder how many people who say they don't believe in anything actually believe that there is no God.
-
- Some of the worst attrocities have been attributed
- to religion so don't expect me to respect them,

Some of the worst attrocities have been committed in the name of the enlightened fight against the backward, old fashioned religion.

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 02:23 PM
Brock.Landers wrote:
"ahhh,
- but they were put here by God to test our faith!"

You see, this is the point of all discussions about the religion. This guy (Jehova's Witness) was trying to prove the existence of God and hence convert you, but in fact he had to rely on you willing to believe in something.

One cannot prove the existence of God. One cannot disprove the existence of God. God's existence, by his very definition, is not a valid scientifical theory that can be falsified. The world of science is the one of sceptical, reductionistic approach. God (at least in the Christian philosophy) can be found through someone's good example, prayer, or faith - things that belong to the unmeasurable domain of human psychics.

Each and every scientific proof of God's existence that was brought forth since ancient times has been found illogical. The same can be said about the proofs to the contrary, by the very nature of the things.

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 02:31 PM
Brock.Landers wrote:
- we ain't going to change
- each others opinions Baldie but what we can do is
- respect them.

Aint that the truth.

As for trumpers comments: carefull with those stones bud!

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XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 02:33 PM
Profanity is the product of ignorance.

<center>
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Is the Bf-110C-4/B ready yet?<center>

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 03:53 PM
trumper wrote:
- Religion is fine providing they keep it to
- themselves and don't go to war because of it,sorry
- but if you believe in something unprovable then
- thats up to you .
- Those who believe in religion really should'nt be
- playing war games,should'nt own any stocks and
- shares in companies that they have no details about
- either.or even work for companies that may have
- inputs into anything that contridicts the bible or
- whatever you believe in.
-
- I wonder how many people go to church or wherever
- to pray for forgiveness and then commit sins again
- afterwards,load of blooming hypocrites.
-
- Some of the worst attrocities have been attributed
- to religion so don't expect me to respect them,



Well put .....religion is the root of all the worlds problems....
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 04:34 PM
- Well put .....religion is the root of all the worlds
- problems....
--

This statement has the same logical value as making the fact you were born guilty of your eventual death.

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 05:01 PM
Spock is that you ?

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 06:37 PM
Cossack13 wrote:
- Profanity is the product of ignorance.

That comment is the product of training.

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 06:42 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
- Wait, what is "ours"? Atheism, or am I mistaken?

You are mistaken. Perhaps agnostic, though I've been called a "theistic-evolutionist" lol.


- I love when Atheists take that "science is the
- answer" approach. If you toss quantums, string
- theory, and probability at them the arguments dry
- up.

It is. Sorry.


- God must exist

Religions exist to control people and to explain what can't be explained anyother way. You're lacking a better explanation, and so hang it on a supreme being.

Notice that as our understanding of the world increased, the number of deities per religion decreased? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Hawgdog
11-11-2003, 06:42 PM
antifreeze wrote:

- I mean, have you ever been accosted by an Atheist in
- the street forcibly telling you their beliefs?


*sigh*

yeah,like RIGHT now..................

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There are no stupid questions,
but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 07:12 PM
Hawgdog wrote:
-
- antifreeze wrote:
-
-- I mean, have you ever been accosted by an Atheist in
-- the street forcibly telling you their beliefs?
-
-
- *sigh*
-
- yeah,like RIGHT now..................

You're not in the streets and you chose to come into this thread. Looks like it's on you. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 07:21 PM
Yep, ive got my religion. Rugby, racing, and beer. hehe

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 07:25 PM
Whatever we cannot easily understand we call God; this saves much wear and tear on the brain tissues.
-- Edward Abbey


What's the difference between the Lone Ranger and God? There really is a Lone Ranger
Edward Abbey



The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
Douglas Adams


"Who Would Jesus Bomb?"

Sodom and Gomorrah (latest archelogical feelings is that they were located in present day Jordan), a few plagues on the Egyptians including killing all the first born, as well as genocide (Deuteronomy's "The Ban", Chap 3:4-7) and is Joshua 6:21 "women, young and old, even the oxen and sheep and donkeys, massacring them all", Joshua 8:2 and 8:24-25 on the massacre of Ai and Joshua 10:30 on the genocide of southern Caanan. We also have God hitting the reset button with a flood (Noah) to wipe out all life except for a chosen few. You'll need a nother representative of "peace" than the Bible and Jesus.

"Worship me or face eternal damnation in Hell" isn't exactly a "peaceful" concept.
A member of the Wing Walkers squad wrote that a few years ago on the delphi flightsim board

Wherever God erects a house of prayer,
The Devil always builds a chapel there;
And 'twill be found, upon examination,
The latter has the largest congregation.
Defoe

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 07:43 PM
God's existance cannot be verified nor falsified by logic if you understand the term in a classic way - consequently a discourse on the subject will not get you closer to the so-called truth, however, I believe in an open discussion free from condemnation from which we can learn to respect eachothers points of view. The way I regard it - God is a word we use that we've enheritaged from our culture & tradition that covers the divine, eternal, absolute etc. Through history people all over the world has tried to comprehend their reality & has integrated a god (or several)in a narrative form to do so - to navigate in chaos. Holding this mythology up against modern evolution theories does not make any sense as it is two different things. Science wants to tell us how things work - the myth wants to tell us how great this or that god is.

S!

M0NS (authorized P39 pyrotechnician)



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 08:27 PM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
- Hawgdog wrote:
--
-- antifreeze wrote:
--
--- I mean, have you ever been accosted by an Atheist in
--- the street forcibly telling you their beliefs?
--
--
-- *sigh*
--
-- yeah,like RIGHT now..................
-
- You're not in the streets and you chose to come into
- this thread. Looks like it's on you.

It takes two to tango.

I'd rather take on the morality imposed by a god that may not exist than accept it from the mouth of another fallible human. Who decides what is right and what is wrong when we choose to reject god?

Would you trust me as arbitor of morality? What about G. W. Bush or Bill Gates?

You see, religion is, even with its downfalls, the most important gift ever given mankind. Without it we become slaves to other men.

<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

Hawgdog
11-11-2003, 08:30 PM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:

- You're not in the streets and you chose to come into
- this thread. Looks like it's on you.


Sorry, I was mislead by the title "My view on profanity in FB". Thanks for your valuable input however.......

<center></script>When your video card goes to hell, tell 'em HawgDog sent it!
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Consulting:
If you're not a part of the solution, theres good money to be made in prolonging the problem

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 09:08 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
- I'd rather take on the morality imposed by a god
- that may not exist than accept it from the mouth of
- another fallible human. Who decides what is right
- and what is wrong when we choose to reject god?

But.............it was a book (or a system) written by the hand of man. After many, many, generations of oral tradition, and having since gone through many different translations and even versions.

So I guess my question is, how can you be certain that such moralities are any different from that which you feel comes from a man directly?

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 09:10 PM
Hawgdog wrote:
- Sorry, I was mislead by the title "My view on
- profanity in FB". Thanks for your valuable input
- however.......

Anytime. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

However, "profane" has religious aspects in it's definition. "Against god" or something in that vane. So technically........ /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Besides, anytime you mention "swearing", you attract the religious right. They in turn drag a religious debate with them that the atheists just can't resist. lol

Hawgdog
11-11-2003, 09:13 PM
I belong to an organization that you must take an oath to God. Why?

You cant hold an athiest accountable to his word.
Good luck.

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Consulting:
If you're not a part of the solution, theres good money to be made in prolonging the problem

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 09:26 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
- It takes two to tango.
-
- I'd rather take on the morality imposed by a god
- that may not exist than accept it from the mouth of
- another fallible human. Who decides what is right
- and what is wrong when we choose to reject god?
-
- Would you trust me as arbitor of morality? What
- about G. W. Bush or Bill Gates?
-
- You see, religion is, even with its downfalls, the
- most important gift ever given mankind. Without it
- we become slaves to other men.

I do not believe religion is a gift given to mankind. The word religion derives from the Latin verb 'religo' which means to tie something up (mostly sticks or branches) but in it's new meaning it has something to do with getting hold of things or making a system. Religion is man-made - I believe - everything written or spoken about God/gods has been written or spoken by man. You may believe that the Bible for example is the revalation of Gods own words but as soon as you pass it on it becomes an interpretation & as such it is imperfect. Religion is tradition & reinterpretation - an important part of human culture - so far I agree on that. But I think there are more questions than answers in religion. The German theologist Moltmann put it this way: God gave room for an imperfect existence by restraining himself from filling out everything - taking up all space. Were the world perfect it would be God - but God gave room for the imperfect - the mortal - as an act of love - it is our duty to fill out that space doing our best. (my own paraphrasis - not a quote) This leaves us with an obligation to treat our fellow man with great care & respect. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

S!

M0NS (authorized P39 pyrotechnician)



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 09:34 PM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
- BaldieJr wrote:
-- I'd rather take on the morality imposed by a god
-- that may not exist than accept it from the mouth of
-- another fallible human. Who decides what is right
-- and what is wrong when we choose to reject god?
-
- But.............it was a book (or a system) written
- by the hand of man. After many, many, generations of
- oral tradition, and having since gone through many
- different translations and even versions.

Now you understand why there are mistakes sprinkled here and there. Penned by the hand of man: Given by the grace of God.


- So I guess my question is, how can you be certain
- that such moralities are any different from that
- which you feel comes from a man directly?

God has never asked for anything tangible. Do you understand what I am saying?

<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 09:37 PM
You can't hold anybody accountable to their word unless you have experience in a similar situation with that person (basically a track record of sorts). Even then.....

Jim Baker, anyone? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Seriously, it has little to do with their "faith" or beleif system. I have seen non-religious types be far more trust worthy than religious types and vice versa.

Hawgdog
11-11-2003, 09:39 PM
"Who do you put your faith in?" Is the actual question. The answer is obvious, or should be.
Jim Baker put his faith in himself, hence his problem.

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Consulting:
If you're not a part of the solution, theres good money to be made in prolonging the problem

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 09:43 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
- Now you understand why there are mistakes sprinkled
- here and there. Penned by the hand of man: Given by
- the grace of God.
-
-
-- So I guess my question is, how can you be certain
-- that such moralities are any different from that
-- which you feel comes from a man directly?
-
- God has never asked for anything tangible. Do you
- understand what I am saying?

I understand what you are saying. I also understand that that idea runs counter to many high ranking types in the various forms of Christianity.

And, I still question how you "know" that to be the case anyway. You beleive it, yes, but why?

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 09:45 PM
W. C. Fields, American entertainer (1880-1946).
An acquaintance of Field's recounts the story of Fields, an atheist, having once been found reading the Bible. When asked what he was doing reading the Bible, Fields responded, "I'm looking for loopholes."



http://www.visi.com/~markg/atheists.html

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 09:53 PM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
- BaldieJr wrote:
-- Now you understand why there are mistakes sprinkled
-- here and there. Penned by the hand of man: Given by
-- the grace of God.
--
--
--- So I guess my question is, how can you be certain
--- that such moralities are any different from that
--- which you feel comes from a man directly?
--
-- God has never asked for anything tangible. Do you
-- understand what I am saying?
-
- I understand what you are saying. I also understand
- that that idea runs counter to many high ranking
- types in the various forms of Christianity.
-
- And, I still question how you "know" that to be the
- case anyway. You beleive it, yes, but why?
-
-

I "know" because I chose to. We all chose our own realities.

As for why: Believing in God is believing in the good in man, even if he so rarely lives up to this expectation.

<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 09:59 PM
Hawgdog wrote:
- "Who do you put your faith in?" Is the actual
- question. The answer is obvious, or should be.
- Jim Baker put his faith in himself, hence his
- problem.

I can see nothing wrong with "beleiving in oneself". Afterall, isn't that the foundation of confidence? Isn't confidence what breeds success in all aspects of life (even the non-monetary)? Don't we teach kids to beleive in themselves and to have confidence?

My point to you is this, he, and many like him, were "men of god", and yet were just as untrustworthy as anyone you could think of. Yet, there are those who don't subscribe to any religion who are people of principle who are eminently trustworthy.

Trusting someone because of what beleif system they claim is risky at best.

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 10:09 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
- I "know" because I chose to. We all chose our own
- realities.

A bit reminiscent of Quantem Theory in a way. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I don't buy that though. The evidence points to one reality because so many things are "external" to us all. That is, they existed before us, will exist after us, and are expernienced in the same way by all of us (on the most basic, raw "data" (if you will) form). The only ways for this to be so is either to have 1 real person and the rest just figments of that "reality", and the other is for there to be a single reality shared by all.


- As for why: Believing in God is believing in the
- good in man, even if he so rarely lives up to
- this expectation.

Not white man at least. (and I am white, just hitting on my own group, not slinging racial slurs)

To the contrary, I see that, historically, religion has more often brought out the worst in people. That it's only when there is no organizational scheme to it and when it is in tune with nature, that people can truly be seen "at their best". Harmony with nature is not something I've seen out of Europe. Only in the far east, and west by way of east (like as in "land bridge").

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 10:49 PM
What the hell is wrong with you people, there's nothing wrong with cussing. Their just words.


I cuss all the time, well not all the time.


<table border=0 width=300 cellspacing=1 cellpadding=5 bgcolor=#404040><tr><td bgcolor=#FFFFFF align=center><big><big><font color=#FF0000>ß P51D Mustang!</font></big></big></td></tr><tr><td align=left bgcolor=#FFFFFF>http://airwar.ru/image/i/fww2/p51d-i.jpg Ӛ¥¤ * â²¥, ⥤ â ª³?¥ Შé. Ӛ ¯ ¥¶ â ?² *¥ ª ¤¨: ¯ â* ¤â¨¦¥*¨¥ ÷¥²¥é ? ç¤ â¨²¥ â ¥¯¸¸ª³. Ӛç¦*, Ӛ ¸¨ ¥²¤ ¨ ª ¦³²¿ ª³-² ?µ ¨÷*¨, * ¯³²ü ²¨ á²³* * ÷ ¤áü²¿ ² ª¨µ ¦¥ ¯ª ç ²¥¥é ¯?¨ç⤨²¥ü*²¨.  ç* é²¥: ¥¨ Ӛ ¤* ¦¤ ¸¨á¸²¥ü, Ӛ ² *¥ ¯?²¿².</td></tr><tr><td align=center bgcolor=#002080><big><font color=#FFFFFF>* ªé â ¨²?¥á¨²¥ü WWII?</font></big> (http://www.aeterna.ru/cgi-bin/maina.cgi?page=test0&link=000000:000003:00017S:000002)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 11:11 PM
DDT,

Think of it this way:

Relativity coexisting with Quantum Theory

and

Individualism coexisting with Society.

In the first, a leap of faith is taken to make the two play nice (String theory).

In the second, you also must make a leap of faith in order to allow peacefull existance of both (God Theory).

Since God and Strings can neither be proven nor disproven, you must decide which option makes the most sense.

If science was as old as religion, it may too be considered the root of so much human distruction. Fortunately for science, it is not only young, but has take the role of "tool for human destruction" early on.





<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

Hawgdog
11-11-2003, 11:29 PM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:

-
- Trusting someone because of what beleif system they
- claim is risky at best.
-
-


Trusting someone who cant believe in a higher power is the riskiest yet


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Consulting:
If you're not a part of the solution, theres good money to be made in prolonging the problem

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 11:43 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
- As for why: Believing in God is believing in the
- good in man, even if he so rarely lives up to
- this expectation.

I kinda ducked out of this one gracefully but, just for the record /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif , good people and non-religious people are not mutually exclusive! I simply don't need 'God' to believe people *are* generally good. And I don't believe people need God to live lives that are generaly respectful of one another.

On a different tack but whilst things are rolling on I have always felt it almost perverse to live this life, the only life you absolutely irrefutably know you have, a certain way purely in the hope that when you die there is something more. Until you can prove there is somethign more its a waste of an awe inspiring game of chance, pure and simple. Heck, surely God will forgive you any transgressions anyway? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


And Hawg, you keep making these statement about untrustworthy atheists but never substatiate them. Obviously it is a question of perspective but I would absolutely trust an atheist before anyone else. From my point of view they are people of logic and reason rather than fairy tales.





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XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 11:45 PM
Hawgdog wrote:
- Trusting someone who cant believe in a higher power
- is the riskiest yet

Why is that?

Bear in mind I have never said I did (or do) not. But I am curious what would cause you to say this.

Surely a man of principle is a man of principle, right?

Do you consider anyone of any "faith", even if vastly different from your own, to be trustworthy?

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 11:47 PM
I am confused.I have not read all the replies because I do not have the time, sorry. But to the original poster, what is your point??

I too have children and like most parents are worried how they will turn out. I also like most parents appreciate that whatever I do I am dealing with an individual and really can only "advise" at best.

One thing I like to advise about is an openess of mind, by example if at all possible.

Imo profanity directly relates to your environment. For one situation a "swearword" might be benign and enhancing, in another words of kindness the worse sort of profanity there is.

I think how we tell this is by being open, not closed.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Richthofen was a romantic Hartman was a pragmatist, they were both supreme killers, but they must have been doing something the same!

Confused

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 11:59 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
- DDT,
-
- Think of it this way:
-
- Relativity coexisting with Quantum Theory
-
- and
-
- Individualism coexisting with Society.
-
- In the first, a leap of faith is taken to make the
- two play nice (String theory).
-
- In the second, you also must make a leap of faith in
- order to allow peacefull existance of both (God
- Theory).
-
- Since God and Strings can neither be proven nor
- disproven, you must decide which option makes the
- most sense.

Michio Kaku rules! 8)

As for his string theory, I've heard him describe it several times and found it fascinating. Hoever, I have not had the luxury of pursuing my hobbies of astro or quantum physics in several years because I'm either at work, studying for work purposes, or spending my precious little free times playing games (and now participating on web forums. lol), so I'm not as versed on string theory as I would like to be. It is fascinating though, what I know of it.

As for "picking what makes sense", this is my point exactly. It's what we've always done. At first we needed a god to pull the sun across the sky. For a while we thought we were at the center of everything and the other stuff was suspended in concentric "crystal" spheres. As time went on and our understanding grew, our need for gods and faith diminished. We didn't have to "beleive" something happened by "higher powers" anymore because we understood how and why they worked.

The same is true even today. Some look at both sides, and see the mountains of evidence that has been, and can be, corroborated through observation and experimentation and accept that, if not true, it's at least a damn good idea and on the right track. Some, have rejected all that. For various reasons it seems. Some find the world to be depressing and boring with out dieties at the helm, some "drank the kool-aid" (as it were) from their parents/sunday school/perochiol school. (those descriptions come from my experience in such debates, nothing more)


- If science was as old as religion, it may too be
- considered the root of so much human distruction.
- Fortunately for science, it is not only young, but
- has take the role of "tool for human destruction"
- early on.

Science is just knowledge. One can look to the old saying that knowledge is power, and this is true, but, by itself, the kinds of knowledge science obtains are not typicall directly viable for population control. Technology that has sprung from science is now starting to be, but that is a slightly different matter. Religion on the other hand has direct control over people. And it is in this control that we see the problems arise. Because it draws greed. (which, if anything, points to evolution because it's part of being a social mamal - ie, aggressivness. But with a large dose of abstract thought capability thrown in, and is really a debate unto itself. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )



This is a risky comment but.....I'd say that western religion is a tool for destruction. The root of control is what makes it possible for all religions, but, anything that stresses harmony with nature leads to a totally different mind set and can't lead to things like we have seen from "euros" (but that includes everything on the continent clear out to the far side of Russia)

A grand simplification, but, I hope you'll cut me some slack on doing so, given the medium we are using. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 01:04 AM
BaldieJr wrote:
- DDT,
-
- Think of it this way:
-
- Relativity coexisting with Quantum Theory
-
- and
-
- Individualism coexisting with Society.
-
- In the first, a leap of faith is taken to make the
- two play nice (String theory).
-
- In the second, you also must make a leap of faith in
- order to allow peacefull existance of both (God
- Theory).

But there's no great schism between individualism and society; any just society should let people behave and believe in any way they see fit, as long as their actions aren't injurious to other members of society:

- murder out;
- strange, but harmless, belief systems in.

This isn't God Theory, it's common sense. No God required.

As for the science bit, there's a reason they're called theories: people are still working on them /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 01:16 AM
Western religion is not the root of evil. It goes a step or two further than that.

I believe in god. I don't go to church. Why? Because its not required, as written in the bible.

Religion would have you believe otherwise. Why? Same reasons you all mention: control.

Is religion at fault? Hell no. Laziness on the part OF THE INDIVIDUAL is at fault.

As long as man is too lazy to inform himself of the facts, he must suffer another layer of interpretation.

String Theory says that Vanilla Icecream is the best of all flavors. Can you dispute this? Are you versed in String Theory? Is it the fault of String Theory if you believe something that is entirely false? Is it my fault for decieving you?

God is the single answer that you seek. Try it, its easy.

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adlabs6
11-12-2003, 01:59 AM
BaldieJr wrote:
- I believe in god. I don't go to church. Why? Because
- its not required, as written in the bible.
-
- Religion would have you believe otherwise. Why? Same
- reasons you all mention: control.

Bingo.

I do not attend church either. I did in long years past, but honestly the most sorted and ugly social interactions I've seen were always between people at church. That's not what I'm there for, no thanks.

In my experience, most "church" groups are looking for what they can get out of those who are members. And not always constructive things either. I've seen church leaders ask a member to tell them their trouble so they could pray about it, only to have the persons trouble spread around by the many gossips who seem to attend the church for that sole reason.

I've seen preachers preach about "don't stop at the store on Sundays on the way home from church", only to cut the sermon short so they could get home to watch the football game. About how Wheel of Forture should be avoided as a "distraction" but they themselves never miss Charlies Angels.

I know a couple who started attending a new church that prides itself on speaking in tonges. The guy was really stressing himself out "trying" to speak in tonges. Not long after, they told me that they could never attend their old church that was not really in touch with God, and said the preacher told them they shouldn't to talk to those memebers of their old church anymore! I could not believe this. I asked them some questions about how they could be any better than any other who also professed Christ, didn't get any good answers. They aren't talking much to me anymore, maybe I'm on the blacklist now also. Pfffft. It's really a shame some of the mess that goes on.

I would call myself "Christian" but not in any way do I relate that to any current religous group. I just believe what I believe because I want to. No one else is really necessary.

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XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 02:01 AM
repco wrote:
- As for the science bit, there's a reason they're
- called theories: people are still working on them
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Incorrect. This is a perversion of the word "theory" and I suspect it's propagated by beligerrant religious types (not saying you are).

A Hypothesis is something that is still being worked on. Something that the scientist is not sure of. Once it passes observation and experimentation it becomes a theory. However, science is (generally, the scientific community is another matter at times unfortunately) honest enough to not claim that it *knows* something that might *technically* be unprovable.

In short, theories can only be disproven, not proven. This doesn't make them any less accurate however. We have just come to falsely associate "theory" with "guess".

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 02:07 AM
BaldieJr wrote:
- As long as man is too lazy to inform himself of the
- facts, he must suffer another layer of
- interpretation.

And forced to suffer socialism.....as we are seeing.


- String Theory says that Vanilla Icecream is the best
- of all flavors. Can you dispute this? Are you versed
- in String Theory? Is it the fault of String Theory
- if you believe something that is entirely false? Is
- it my fault for decieving you?

I would not beleive that String Theory would make such a claim. I would wait to find out myself, and then judge how/why it made such a claim (if it really did), and determine if I felt it was on the right track or not.


- God is the single answer that you seek. Try it, its
- easy.

Ok. Why God? Why do you assume it's the "answer" I "seek" in the first place? But really, why not Odin? Or Thoth? Or Zeus? Or Thunderbird? Or Spider-Grandmother?

Again, I'd say that the better ideas are native to this continent. Certianly they lead to better social behavior than what was brought here. Just my opinion though.

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 02:28 AM
How bout Thor...He even has his day (thursday)...

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 02:35 AM
I fail to see how cussing and nudity are related to being "mature", whatever some of you mean by that.

Maturity, for me, is more related to having a little class - and im not talking about how much money you make. Sure, we all cuss in certain situations, and I am sure WW2 pilots did their fair share of it in the cockpits, but I see no reason to hear more of it than i have to.



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XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 02:53 AM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
-- God is the single answer that you seek. Try it, its
-- easy.
-
- Ok. Why God?

Why not god?

- Why do you assume it's the "answer" I
- "seek" in the first place?

A single theory, unified. I thought we covered this. Were you not seeking a single theory a few posts back? Did you not conclude that 1 answer must exist? I say its God.

- But really, why not Odin?

Fine, call him whatever you want. He wont mind.

- Or Thoth? Or Zeus? Or Thunderbird? Or
- Spider-Grandmother?

Spider-Grandmother! I love it!

- Again, I'd say that the better ideas are native to
- this continent. Certianly they lead to better social
- behavior than what was brought here. Just my opinion
- though.
-
-

Oh yes! Check out Red Elks views on christianity. I LOVE to hear that guy talk. The man has his theism down, and his belief in God is strong. I forget which tribe he hails from, but I doesn't really matter. He is native american who follows a natural view of christianity.

Adlabs: Thats sad, but all too common today.




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XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 03:04 AM
BaldieJr wrote:
- Why not god?

It may not be necessary, or even important. All depends on ones views.


- A single theory, unified. I thought we covered this.
- Were you not seeking a single theory a few posts
- back? Did you not conclude that 1 answer must exist?
- I say its God.

I'm too lazy to go back and read this whole thread again. lol I do suspect that there must logically be an explanation for everything. It may not be Dr. Kakus 1 inch long equation, it may not be god either, but it's something.

As I said though, it gets to a point where it doesn't really matter.

This is where I have been called a theistic-evolutionist, I can't explain what caused the first big bang, but somehting had too. So, we can call that a diety I suppose, though it may not even be that. Beyond that though, all evidence clearly indicates that the laws of physics have ruled ever micro-second since.

In that case, why does it matter if "god" exists or not? Thinking along those lines discards the bible and anything like it.


-- Or Thoth? Or Zeus? Or Thunderbird? Or
-- Spider-Grandmother?
-
- Spider-Grandmother! I love it!

Are you familiar with her? I am only marginally.


- Oh yes! Check out Red Elks views on christianity. I
- LOVE to hear that guy talk. The man has his theism
- down, and his belief in God is strong. I forget
- which tribe he hails from, but I doesn't really
- matter. He is native american who follows a natural
- view of christianity.

Christian ideals are western ideals. Not native to this country. So they are not what I was talking about. Have you read Red Jackets speech to a missionary regarding the missionaries desires to teach christianity?

Very interesting indeed. Raises many good points and questions.


- Adlabs: Thats sad, but all too common today.

And why I was suggesting to HawgDawg that "faith" is not a good means for judging a person.

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 03:11 AM
Seems to me this string has gotten a little off the main issue. It's gotten into a religous battle.
The issue here clearly was the use of profanity in the game itself.

I for one think it has no place being added in as part of the game.

Most respectible squads Allied, Axis, or Other discourage their members from using profanity as much as possible. We do however understand there will be occasional slip ups, which is just the nature of man.

My point is people mess up and that understandible, but the game itself will always use profanity due to the voice sound files and that's why I say there is no need for that.

If it does remain as part of the game when the expansion comes out I will definately be leaving the voice option off.



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XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 04:14 AM
BaldieJr wrote:
- I believe in god. I don't go to church. Why? Because
- its not required, as written in the bible.


Negative

in Hebrews it says to Not forsake the gathering of yourselves together for encouragement as the end draws near

& the Bible is a book that has gone on for thousands of years being copied with incredible accuracy

the message wasnt changed to suit different political or military climates

not human traits

also it has come under SEVER persecution with attempts to wipe it out that stretched hundreds of years

but it remains as the most pubilished & most available book to human kind

why is that ?

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 07:49 AM
Funny thing is i'm amazed this thred hasn't been locked yet.

I'll try and make this short not like some of the posts in here. For one the game is rated for (TEEN) due to violence, killing things whether it's a game or not. So all your little kiddie's shouldn't be playing or watching it anyway.

Yet folks seem to worry about a few bad words. For some yet not for others. I mean if you listen to the critics do they not say violence is what corrupts the childern? Which to me is nothing but a bunch of bull, i have seen horror flicks, murder movies etc etc, and i don't go around killing folks from.

In short it's a poor excuse to point the finger at another then where it truely belongs. All it is, is another way for folks wanting to censor things THEY don't like, which may not offend others.

I don't know about you but when i play i'm to busy chasing or running from planes to worry about what the text at the top is saying. Besides when i fly in cockpit view the engines drown out just about everything but the guns, so i think you may be reading and listening just a little to hard into things.

May you not become a dirt torpedo.

PlatinumDragon...

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 09:29 AM
Sort of getting back towards the title,in the last wars religious men fought each other[which one of them is holier],do you not think that if a soldier or fighter pilot is being peppered by machine gun fire and their planes smashed to bits by canon fire that they did'nt swear or curse their enemy or even themselves.
That is real life,i know F/B isn't but it's supposed to be as close as is possible.
Just to clear things up,i persionally am NOT anti religion at all,i believe in good and bad and am still daft enough to believe that 90% of humans are decent[i seem to meet the 10% that arent LOL].
I just disagree with being told that you're not decent if you're not religious.
I wish all the people on this forum well and i can't see why the mods should lock it,[this thread],it has been conducted in a very good way,good debates and for a potential flame fest has been very responsibly posted in.
All the best ,regards to all

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 09:49 AM
PlatinumDragon wrote:
- I mean if you listen to the
- critics do they not say violence is what corrupts
- the childern? Which to me is nothing but a bunch of
- bull, i have seen horror flicks, murder movies etc
- etc, and i don't go around killing folks from

yes that is easy to say .... but ....

the more violence you are a witness too the more it takes for you to be shocked

slowly over 4 decades television has been getting more graphic

society also changes , & with it its media

what used to be risque is now tame , we see things thru the media for entertainment now that never would have been considered " entertainment " to previous generations

its our conciousness & our kindness that elevate Humans above just animals

degrade those qualitys & you make a animal out of a human

watching violent movies doesnt make you a murderer , but it does sear your concience to what is shocking

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 09:52 AM
Just wondering how much violence, blood, death, and suffering the poor kids of Europe (or any other part of globe) saw during the Middle Ages and later times - not in TV, but in real life, real time. And still most of them grew up to be normal people and to push the world forwards.

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 10:27 AM
I am pretty amazed at how many Americans (I assume?) posting here have a problem with 'profanity' considering your 'live, as it happens!' violent culture. It just seems really skewed.





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XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 10:35 AM
WUAF_Badsight wrote:
- BaldieJr wrote:
-- I believe in god. I don't go to church. Why? Because
-- its not required, as written in the bible.
-
-
- Negative
-
- in Hebrews it says to Not forsake the gathering of
- yourselves together for encouragement as the end
- draws near
-
- & the Bible is a book that has gone on for thousands
- of years being copied with incredible accuracy

Being a student of theology I must say I disagree: The New Testament consists of more than 3.000 (often contradicting) handwritings put together to the edition we know today. Nestle-Alands 27th edition of 'Novum Testamentum Graece' descripes this process thoroughly & you get a clear picture of how complicated this work is. Mistakes HAS been made & there are a lot of them - it is therefore the task of the modern theologist to try to solve this very fragmentated puzzle. I have not yet counted the number of texts being the basis for the Old Testament but taking a look in my 'Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon' suggests that we're talking 10.000s! This is why we work with a critical apparatus to make the most plausible version
available.

- the message wasnt changed to suit different
- political or military climates
-
- not human traits

Take a look at 1st Corinthians 9:19-23 & see how Paul descripes his work adapting himself to his current situation. Some degree of adaption/assimilation is crucial if you want to 'spread the gospel' in different cultures.
Remember that the Bible wasn't put together before 325 AD (approx.)

- also it has come under SEVER persecution with
- attempts to wipe it out that stretched hundreds of
- years

Attempts has been made in the Middle Ages to prevent laymen from reading & interpretating as the church was afraid to lose it's monopoly & authority.

- but it remains as the most pubilished & most
- available book to human kind

(what about Harry Potter lol)

- why is that ?


Because it HAS been the backbone of our culture & it is important to have understanding & knowlegde of it if you want to understand our present time. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


S!

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XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 10:50 AM
Inapropriate thread for this forum. If you dont like the game, its very simple-------DONT PLAY IT!!!!

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 10:57 AM
They like the game, they are just sceptical about one (tiny, but in their opinion hindering) element of it.

You cannot dismiss the whole (or demand that someone dismisses it) if there is a problem with just one non-crucial part of it.

This applies to many discussions in this forum I think.



Message Edited on 11/12/0311:08AM by HansKnappstick

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 11:04 AM
I think this has bee a very good discussion and has opened up some good comments,as long as it stays courtious[must get spell check LOL] and away from personal insults i don't see a problem with it.

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 11:14 AM
Y do we belive in religion? because we have to, to belive in death being just death dead gone nothing is pretty bleak and makes everything point less, because if you know that once you die its then nothing at all whats the point of living.

Religion sprung up to fill this very need, we have no reason to belive in it other than fear of death, there is no proof any of it is true other than the person says, science offers logical and understandable reasons for things.

Evolution is one, i belive in it, many reglious types belive god made everything just like that, no proof no nothing, were as evolution is seen before our eyes, bacteria for one natural slection causing super bugs to surface as the weak are killed off and the strong are left.

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XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 11:31 AM
Also, you need religion to maintain a social order, to overcome the natural grief of an individual and make him behave more socially.

If you think there is no contradiction between individual and society, just have a look at the birth rates in Western European countries and think a moment about it.

You do need a kind of religion to be able to say "the last shirt does not have pockets".

I fail to understand why so many people contradict religion using science or vice versa. They (those two notions) belong to very different worlds and are not exclusive but rather complementary.

And no, science does not provide answers to all questions. In physics, every theory has it's own approximations that fail under certain circumstances. We make better and better approximations. And every theory that provides the reasons for some phenomena rises questions about the reasons for those reasons. Once we stop questioning we are talking religion again, not science.

Also, science does not provide answers to questions about human behiaviour, for example.

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 11:40 AM
well science i think can answer all of those questions, we have come a long way from the past it will only take time till we have the technology. The human brain is no magic it is chemcial .

Religion provides comfort from fear of death that is it, it holds no answers no solutions. In many cases it is a tool used by people for their own needs, happened in the past happens today.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 11:47 AM
I personally am not a believer but some strange things do happen that havent been explained yet,maybe time will tell.If people are comforted in a time of need by their beliefs then good for them.
One things for certain we will all pass on to whatever lays ahead at sometime,just a question of when.

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 11:52 AM
Science can provide an explanation on how things work - religion why things work. One thing doesn't need to exclude the other - theologists at the universities all over the world use common scientific research methods too. But like with, say, poetry - you can have a literate approach, a pragmatic or an emotional one.

S!

M0NS (authorized P39 pyrotechnician)



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 11:58 AM
HellToupee wrote:
- well science i think can answer all of those
- questions, we have come a long way from the past it
- will only take time till we have the technology. The
- human brain is no magic it is chemcial .
-
I doubt it; anytime the science answered a question it raised some more. Example Evolution: every time a "missing link" is found, two other missing links appear, the direct ancestor of the found species and the direct descendant. This is not my sentence; an acknowledged paleontologist said this, but I am quoting from my head. Neither he nor me is against evolution theory, obviously.

This points to another interesting observation: most of us believe in cience in a kind; no human being is able to prove dircetly what belongs to the current scientific knowledge of our civilisation. I am a solid state physicist, but if I listen to an astrophysicist (or to an anthropologist or whomever) I have to judge his qualities and _believe_ what he says - or not believe.

- Religion provides comfort from fear of death that is
- it, it holds no answers no solutions. In many cases
- it is a tool used by people for their own needs,
- happened in the past happens today.

I agree only partially. Religion also provides the way to think about your life in other aspects beside death. Say you see a nice car parked on a street side, keys inside, door open, and noone around. Say you are no rich enough to buy a car of the corresponding quality, say your family needs a mean of transportation. What do you think? The religion (most religions, I think) provide a clear answer "thou shall not steal". It's not a "fear of death issue", is it?

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 12:00 PM
M0NS wrote:
- Science can provide an explanation on how things
- work - religion why things work. One thing doesn't
- need to exclude the other - theologists at the
- universities all over the world use common
- scientific research methods too. But like with, say,
- poetry - you can have a literate approach, a
- pragmatic or an emotional one.
-
- S!
-
That's about the best post I have seen here.

Hawgdog
11-12-2003, 12:46 PM
Brock.Landers wrote:
- I am pretty amazed at how many Americans (I assume?)
- posting here have a problem with 'profanity'
- considering your 'live, as it happens!' violent
- culture. It just seems really skewed.


Dang son, you really 'assume' alot. I dont assume Russians love communism. dang........dont believe everything you see on your TV
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Consulting:
If you're not a part of the solution, theres good money to be made in prolonging the problem

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 01:06 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
- I agree only partially. Religion also provides the
- way to think about your life in other aspects beside
- death. Say you see a nice car parked on a street
- side, keys inside, door open, and noone around. Say
- you are no rich enough to buy a car of the
- corresponding quality, say your family needs a mean
- of transportation. What do you think? The religion
- (most religions, I think) provide a clear answer
- "thou shall not steal". It's not a "fear of death
- issue", is it?
-

No - you're right - it's an ethical one. Most, if not all
religions provide such guidelines along with many atheistic philosophies - that you must treat your fellow man with respect & in this case not take what belongs to him.

btw - it's funny when you guys quote from the Bible - I can see the English used is ancient - have you ever thought why there are no translations into modern English?


S!

M0NS (authorized P39 pyrotechnician)



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 01:11 PM
M0NS wrote:
-
- No - you're right - it's an ethical one. Most, if
- not all
- religions provide such guidelines along with many
- atheistic philosophies - that you must treat your
- fellow man with respect & in this case not take what
- belongs to him.
Agreed 100%

-
- btw - it's funny when you guys quote from the Bible
- - I can see the English used is ancient - have you
- ever thought why there are no translations into
- modern English?

Suggestion: the same reason why it was not translated from Latin until Luther?
What a coincidence, the German version of the (Catholic) Bible is pretty modern what concerns the language.

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 01:19 PM
Guys the game is violent. The aim is to kill your opponent.

When I watch a movie that contains violence, it usually also contains profanity and nudity as well.

All three (violence, profanity and nudity) are inseparable as far as I'm concerned.

We now have the violence and the profanity in the game.

What is missing is the nudity.

Hopefully Oleg will include that soon.

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 01:27 PM
WooHooToYou wrote:
- Guys the game is violent. The aim is to kill your
- opponent.

No it is not. It simulates certain aspects of the aerial WWII but neglects the others, including the most brutal ones. If you re flying Ju87 and your rear gunner gets shot, you do not see his guts flowing between your pedals. If you set another plane on fire and the pilot jumps, you do not see him burning alive while hanging on his parachute. When you land on your recently bombed airbase you do not smell the burnt flesh of your dead comerades who didn't make it to the trenches. You can hear the AI pilots swear when they come under fire but you do not hear them howl and cry when this fire is effective.



- All three (violence, profanity and nudity) are
- inseparable as far as I'm concerned.

As far as I am concerned, I am married so I get nudity sometimes, but don't remember getting violence...

-
- We now have the violence and the profanity in the
- game.
-
- What is missing is the nudity.
-
- Hopefully Oleg will include that soon.
LOL, Slavic girls rule!

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 03:25 PM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
- BaldieJr wrote:
-- Why not god?
-
- It may not be necessary, or even important. All
- depends on ones views.

You appear to find your answer in native american beliefs. What bothers me is you also say that it may not be necessary to believe.

How you refer to God doesn't matter to me. The minutia of your Gods workings does not matter to me either. What does matter to me is wether or not you've come to grips with what you believe.

As someone who has read a great deal about many religions, I can tell you with a lot of certainty that they are all similar in many aspects. So much so that you can put thier names in a hat, draw one, and live happily ever after if you just take that leap of faith (chose to believe) AND educate yourself about that religion.


-- A single theory, unified. I thought we covered this.
-- Were you not seeking a single theory a few posts
-- back? Did you not conclude that 1 answer must exist?
-- I say its God.
-
- I'm too lazy to go back and read this whole thread
- again. lol I do suspect that there must logically be
- an explanation for everything. It may not be Dr.
- Kakus 1 inch long equation, it may not be god
- either, but it's something.

You are allowing me control by not rereading what you wrote. I can manipulate this situation for as long as you don't keep yourself informed. This is pretty much what this entire thread is about (including the taking of Gods name in vain): Educating yourself about the things you claim to believe in, and applying these ideas in everyday life (hopefully without having to sound like a zealot).

This is the problem with western religion. People don't have the time to read about thier religion. This is why christianity has become such an utter failure, and why it probably won't survive the next 500 years without a solid douching of protocol. Basicly, we need another Jesus to set people straight.

- As I said though, it gets to a point where it
- doesn't really matter.
-
- This is where I have been called a
- theistic-evolutionist, I can't explain what caused
- the first big bang, but somehting had too. So, we
- can call that a diety I suppose, though it may not
- even be that. Beyond that though, all evidence
- clearly indicates that the laws of physics have
- ruled ever micro-second since.

I just love this big-bang theory (keyword). Why do we assume that the Universe has a begining and an end? Because we are finite, so we refuse to accept infinity as a possibility, even though we know that infinity exists.

I see the Universe as: always was here, always will be here. Expansion is due only to change... For every action an equal and opposite reaction: but who says it starts/ ends with all the drama? Could it be that the flow of energy from one place to another cause expansion and contraction, without total destruction? I say yes. Black holes show us that time/space can fold in on itself. I say these return us to where we began, and where we began leads to where we are.

When neo tries to leave the train station, he ends where he began, with no destruction to anything but his perception of where he is. An infinate loop is reproducable within a machine, why not within everything?

- In that case, why does it matter if "god" exists or
- not? Thinking along those lines discards the bible
- and anything like it.

It does matter. For the same reasons science tries so hard to explain everything. We have an undying need to understand everything.

--- Or Thoth? Or Zeus? Or Thunderbird? Or
--- Spider-Grandmother?
--
-- Spider-Grandmother! I love it!
-
- Are you familiar with her? I am only marginally.

Yes. She brought fire and arts to native americans. I find humor in her name because my own grandmother told the BEST stories!

-- Oh yes! Check out Red Elks views on christianity. I
-- LOVE to hear that guy talk. The man has his theism
-- down, and his belief in God is strong. I forget
-- which tribe he hails from, but I doesn't really
-- matter. He is native american who follows a natural
-- view of christianity.
-
- Christian ideals are western ideals. Not native to
- this country. So they are not what I was talking
- about. Have you read Red Jackets speech to a
- missionary regarding the missionaries desires to
- teach christianity?
-
- Very interesting indeed. Raises many good points and
- questions.

http://www2.gasou.edu/facstaff/dpanther/jacket.htm
I now know what you know. I can now make a few points:
His God is not much different from my God. His argument is: Your practical usage of religion is wrong and we would rather not be part of it.

I agree with him. I also agree that peace can exist because we have something very much in common: we both believe in a single answer to everything.

-- Adlabs: Thats sad, but all too common today.
-
- And why I was suggesting to HawgDawg that "faith" is
- not a good means for judging a person.
-
-

Total agreement. Faith is just a conversation starter, in most cases.

Thanks to the mods for letting this thread continue, and thanks to the paritcipants for keeping it civil.

No thanks to J18_weed for all the disgusting and hatefull PM's.


<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

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XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 04:05 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
- As someone who has read a great deal about many
- religions, I can tell you with a lot of certainty
- that they are all similar in many aspects. So much
- so that you can put thier names in a hat, draw one,
- and live happily ever after if you just take that
- leap of faith (chose to believe) AND educate
- yourself about that religion.

I would rather not like meeting someone who happened to draw the Aztek religion out of that hat.

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 04:21 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
- BaldieJr wrote:
-- As someone who has read a great deal about many
-- religions, I can tell you with a lot of certainty
-- that they are all similar in many aspects. So much
-- so that you can put thier names in a hat, draw one,
-- and live happily ever after if you just take that
-- leap of faith (chose to believe) AND educate
-- yourself about that religion.
-
- I would rather not like meeting someone who happened
- to draw the Aztek religion out of that hat.

They were pacifists. Try the Moche. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 04:24 PM
Congratulations on the patronising tone and 'humourous' picture Hawgdog. Now answer me this- are you an American?

*EDIT* Actually, whatever, it's irrelevant. It was an observation based on my own experience rather than 'what I've seen on TV'. It still stands even after your little slapdown. I have visited New York and lived in California for a couple of months on 2001, many aspects of the country rock and I had a blast I intend to repeat as soon as I can.

Comparing the American media and some aspects of its film and music culture to the UK and other Eurpoean countries is interesting though. America IS fairly de-sensitised to violence due to, amongst many other things, the media's obsession with the subject matter. On the contrary Europe is a little more cautious in how it deals with violence but far more lenient about colourful (I refuse to use the word profane, this debate has spoiled it for me!) language and nudity. Now map the percentage of people who regularly practice their religion against this and the higher percentage of people in the USA I guess gives me the reason why this is so. It *seems* fair to me to say the bible is extremely violent in places, Striker-PBNA's quote about God sanctioning the genocide of those opposed to the Israelites a prime case in point, but religion has always baulked when dealing with sex and the like.

What i meant to say with the comment that obviously offended you HawgDog is that this view of right and wrong, good and bad, seems profoundly odd to me. It seems to have carried over into the posts in this debate where generally the religious here are happy for their children to shoot people but not happy for them to hear the words "God Damn!". If you *did* believe video games are damaging (I don't) to those playing them then which of those two occurences would be MORE likely to corrupt?

Message Edited on 11/12/0304:10PM by Brock.Landers

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 05:01 PM
Striker-PBNA wrote:
- In my bible, Old Testament, the God of Israel, the
- God I believe in and worship this day, sanctioned
- the total annilation of tribes that stood in the way
- of His people reaching the land he promised to them
- in the time of Moses. I mean nothing was allowed to
- be left breathing including women and children and
- all the animals of that particular tribe of people.
-
- So doing a little virtual killing playing FB dosen't
- bother me. The profanity I could do without, but
- there are alot of things I could do without
- pertaining to my personal relationship with God. S!
-
-



I just let an 11 year old nephew read this post.

His question was "Uncle Jim, If Gandma says that at church we alays should love and respect each other , why are we always at war?

I was going to try and explain that whem most hardline religions say love all, they actually mean all who fall in line and agree with us.

The rest may be slaughtered at will . Just remember to annoint their heads before swinging the hammer and no swearing.God doesn't like bad words when imposing our wil........I mean his will on the unlearned.

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 05:08 PM
Great thread so far. So many to read more closely and respond to. I just don't have the time. So I'll continue with you Baldie, if you're still reading. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


BaldieJr wrote:
- You appear to find your answer in native american
- beliefs. What bothers me is you also say that it may
- not be necessary to believe.

Well.....yes and no. I rather like nature and hate seeing it destroyed like it is everywhere I look. I also see this as a european thing (the concept that nature is to be conqured. And it happens to totally coincide with the Christian view point on the heirarchy of thing - ie, that man is higher up than plants and animals and free to do with them as he pleases (dominion over the animals and all that)). By contrast I see the principles and the Te-Tao Ching, aspects of Budo, and all that I have ever come across from the Nothern Americas, as being focused on harmony. With nature and man. Particularly the ideas from this continent. And, the more I read about it, the more I find I like it. And there's more to this, but it's not important for this forum.


- How you refer to God doesn't matter to me. The
- minutia of your Gods workings does not matter to me
- either. What does matter to me is wether or not
- you've come to grips with what you believe.

I tend to appreciate logic. I try to live by something I've taken as a personal slogan - "Question Everything(tm)". I feel that if anything doesn't stand up to hard questioning, it should not be considered valid (I think I wrote this already, might have been the last thread on this lol). Logic is the process by which this is possible.

I actually don't care for the term "beleive" as it smacks of blind faith. That is nothing more than taking someone elses (or even your imaginations) word for it. That runs entirely counter to that slogan and just rubs me the wrong way.

Instead I prefer to use the term "accept". That is, I accept the idea that the sun will "rise" tomorrow morning, but I don't necessarily "beleive" it.

I have yet to find anything that would give me reason to doubt the validity of physics, or more to the point, the validity of any single religions concepts of the history of the universe.

I guess that's a round about way to say, that by default I have "come to grips" with my point of view. I rather enjoy it actually.


- As someone who has read a great deal about many
- religions, I can tell you with a lot of certainty
- that they are all similar in many aspects. So much
- so that you can put thier names in a hat, draw one,
- and live happily ever after if you just take that
- leap of faith (chose to believe) AND educate
- yourself about that religion.

But....could this be because we are all the same thing? I recog, that, generally speaking, all major religions basically say "play nice". And they do share many principles. However, 3 of the majors are intimately related to one another too. But, is it possible that what works for one group of people would tend to work for another? Environment gets in the way and causes mutations in physiology and thereby behavior, but, we are still people, coming from an ancient base of about 10,000 beings (having been nearly wiped out about 10,000 years ago IIRC). So the basics of "playing nice" seem perfectly natural being applied to all of us.

I guess what I'm getting at is that it's not anything special about the religions that makes them similar. They would have to be similar by default because they are from humans.


- You are allowing me control by not rereading what
- you wrote. I can manipulate this situation for as
- long as you don't keep yourself informed. This is
- pretty much what this entire thread is about
- (including the taking of Gods name in vain):
- Educating yourself about the things you claim to
- believe in, and applying these ideas in everyday
- life (hopefully without having to sound like a
- zealot).

I see your point, but disagree. Only because of this particular instance. I do hope we find a G.U.T. someday. And I think we will. My only question was whether or not I had said that in this thread before.

But otherwise, yes, people are lemmings. This is why America is going the socialist route. Not even TR would have like this I have a feeling, and it's arguable that he started it. Something tells me that The Founders would die of heartbreak if they were here to see how things were going today though.


- This is the problem with western religion. People
- don't have the time to read about thier religion.
- This is why christianity has become such an utter
- failure, and why it probably won't survive the next
- 500 years without a solid douching of protocol.
- Basicly, we need another Jesus to set people
- straight.

Is it the problem with western religion, or western society? I also have reservations with the idea that a religion (any religion) must be chosen by an individual.


- I just love this big-bang theory (keyword).

See what I said above regarding the word "theory".


- Why do we assume that the Universe has a begining and an
- end? Because we are finite, so we refuse to accept
- infinity as a possibility, even though we know that
- infinity exists.

Can you show that "evil" exists? It's pretty much the same as "infinity". A concept that is "real" because we have defined it, but not necessarily naturally occuring, and so not "real" by that definition.

The end is in debate. The beginning is obvious. If not only for the fact that it is here now, then because it's expanding, equally, in all directions.


- I see the Universe as: always was here, always will
- be here. Expansion is due only to change... For
- every action an equal and opposite reaction: but who
- says it starts/ ends with all the drama? Could it be
- that the flow of energy from one place to another
- cause expansion and contraction, without total
- destruction? I say yes. Black holes show us that
- time/space can fold in on itself. I say these return
- us to where we began, and where we began leads to
- where we are.

It's expanding equally, in all directions. If it was a transition of energy or some such from one place to another, it would not show the uniformity that it does.

I think we can agree that, if something is 2ft now, and we see that it is expanding, and an hour later it is 3ft. Then when it is 3ft, we can say that, in the past it was smaller, right?

Work it back far enough and you wind up with all mater in a single point. Radioactive or not, that would be a supercritical mass and it would explode.

Also, the fact that only gravity and drag or collisions can stop something in space means that what ever caused the whole univers to expand as it is, was a LOOOOONG time ago, and *very* powerful. The fact is that a deity is not needed to describe or explain any of this. And our alternate methods pass the observation and experimentation tests. (as well as the logic test)


- It does matter. For the same reasons science tries
- so hard to explain everything. We have an undying
- need to understand everything.

I disagree. When I said "matter", I meant in the way of "sins" and what not. If the deity is there merely to explain existence, than it has no bearing on how one lives this life, and says nothing, one way or another, about an afterlife. So in that sense, it doesn't matter.


- Yes. She brought fire and arts to native americans.
- I find humor in her name because my own grandmother
- told the BEST stories!

I have a feeling I'd be interested in them. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


- I agree with him. I also agree that peace can exist
- because we have something very much in common: we
- both believe in a single answer to everything.

Well it could be argued that most religions all have something in common, they think they are the 1 true way. But that hasn't exactly led to peaceful co-existance. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif lol


- Thanks to the mods for letting this thread continue,
- and thanks to the paritcipants for keeping it civil.

Indeed. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif S

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 05:14 PM
No matter what you say to the christian types thay have
an answer .....It boils down to this when your dead your dead and thats it....No one can show proof beyond a doubt that there is life after death no one has and no one ever will...Its all about an after life or lack of one....
No one has ever returned from the dead to tell you how great it is to sit on a cloud and stroke your harp and listen the the birdies sing..
Its a fear of nothing after death that drives most religion ...
And to worship some dicksmack because he will torture you
for all eterity if you dont is just stupid...
There is no heaven the is no hell....

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 05:24 PM
- Well.....yes and no. I rather like nature and hate
- seeing it destroyed like it is everywhere I look. I
- also see this as a european thing (the concept that
- nature is to be conqured. And it happens to totally
- coincide with the Christian view point on the
- heirarchy of thing - ie, that man is higher up than
- plants and animals and free to do with them as he
- pleases (dominion over the animals and all that)).
this will sound cruel, but this is why the Western Culture dominates the world (at least, from the technological and economical point of view).

- By contrast I see the principles and the Te-Tao
- Ching, aspects of Budo, and all that I have ever
- come across from the Nothern Americas, as being
- focused on harmony. With nature and man.
Harmony with nature. I suppose you don't wear clothes even in harsh winter - they are very unnatural. A natural way of human existence, the nomadic one (you do not plant, nor hunt - you just gather what you can find) implies that some 90% of children die before they reach the age of 4. In this way you don't need all those unnatural medicaments, because those who managed to survive have a very healthy immunological system.

Also, concerning the harmony-loving native Americans, there are theories that they wope the horses out. What about the civilisations of Mezoamerica? The Mayans farmed their lands and sucked the ressources down to convert it into barren wastelands, so that they had to move the entire country hundreds of kilometers away.

- But....could this be because we are all the same
- thing? I recog, that, generally speaking, all major
- religions basically say "play nice". And they do
- share many principles. However, 3 of the majors are
- intimately related to one another too. But, is it
- possible that what works for one group of people
- would tend to work for another? Environment gets in
- the way and causes mutations in physiology and
- thereby behavior, but, we are still people, coming
- from an ancient base of about 10,000 beings (having
- been nearly wiped out about 10,000 years ago IIRC).
- So the basics of "playing nice" seem perfectly
- natural being applied to all of us.
Indeed? why does it happen then that human beings quarrel and fight all the time they can? IMO we need this brake, which religion imposes, on our natural behaviour.

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 05:56 PM
"implies that some 90% of children die before they reach the age of 4. In this way you don't need all those unnatural medicaments, because those who managed to survive have a very healthy immunological system."



What would be so bad about that ...there are 6 billion
of us ....What we need is a big die off a pluage or some kind of mass death on par with black death in europe....
All goverments need to impose a 1 child per family rule for at least 30 years.

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 06:00 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
- this will sound cruel, but this is why the Western
- Culture dominates the world (at least, from the
- technological and economical point of view).

There is no excuse to destroy the environment. None. The answer is less people. People suck. But that's another debate.


- Harmony with nature. I suppose you don't wear
- clothes even in harsh winter - they are very
- unnatural. A natural way of human existence, the
- nomadic one (you do not plant, nor hunt - you just
- gather what you can find) implies that some 90% of
- children die before they reach the age of 4. In this
- way you don't need all those unnatural medicaments,
- because those who managed to survive have a very
- healthy immunological system.

Did you know that 95.94398239874% of all statistics are made up on the spot?

In short, I have very good reason to question your #s. But, besides that, harmony means working with. Not being totally removed from. You can farm and still be in harmony with nature.


- Also, concerning the harmony-loving native
- Americans, there are theories that they wope the
- horses out. What about the civilisations of
- Mezoamerica? The Mayans farmed their lands and
- sucked the ressources down to convert it into barren
- wastelands, so that they had to move the entire
- country hundreds of kilometers away.

I was speaking specifically of the Northern Americas and has stated that. But, the Mayans are a great example of what will happen with the mind set this culture has. We will either destroy all of our resources, or, cause famine and plagues the likes of which have never been imagined as we fight each other for every square inch of overpopulated land.


- Indeed? why does it happen then that human beings
- quarrel and fight all the time they can? IMO we need
- this brake, which religion imposes, on our natural
- behaviour.

Man is a social mamal. Social mamals are aggressive. Aggressiveness leads to violence. This is inevitable. Add in the capability for abstract thought and things can get a little out of hand. However, you mean to tell me that respecting anothers rights is not as applicable to 1 group of people as it is to another? I get the feeling you misunderstood my comment.

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 06:13 PM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
- There is no excuse to destroy the environment. None.
True.
- The answer is less people. People suck. But that's
- another debate.
Too many people is bad for the planet, but I would avoid using this word with s.
For my simple, chauvinistic, expansionistic, (...) mind, the answer is colonisation. Of other planets in this case.
-
-
- In short, I have very good reason to question your
- #s. But, besides that, harmony means working with.
- Not being totally removed from. You can farm and
- still be in harmony with nature.
You can question my numbers (I do not hide the fact I took them from my head) but you cannot question the fact that without modern medicine (vaccinations, antibiotics) _most_ children died before reaching the maturity.
-
- I was speaking specifically of the Northern Americas
- and has stated that.
Still, the horses (or killing them off) remain.

- But, the Mayans are a great
- example of what will happen with the mind set this
- culture has. We will either destroy all of our
- resources, or, cause famine and plagues the likes of
- which have never been imagined as we fight each
- other for every square inch of overpopulated land.
Yes - unless we move (to conquer/populate/destroy another land http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif)

- Man is a social mamal. Social mamals are aggressive.
- Aggressiveness leads to violence. This is
- inevitable. Add in the capability for abstract
- thought and things can get a little out of hand.
Yes and in order to get it under _control_ we have religion. Or NKVD. I prefer religion.

- However, you mean to tell me that respecting
- anothers rights is not as applicable to 1 group of
- people as it is to another? I get the feeling you
- misunderstood my comment.
Possibly. I try not to quarrel but to discuss with you since I am positively impressed by both the contents and the form of your posts. I am just throwing a grain of salt http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif)
--

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 06:31 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
-
- Indeed? why does it happen then that human beings quarrel - and fight all the time they can? IMO we need this brake, - which religion imposes, on our natural behaviour.

That is really quite something! On aggregate religion has been THE prime cause of conflict since it inception a few thousand years ago and continues to be so today. I fully acknowledge that it is a source of comfort and can be a force for good but, far from a break on human behaviour, it has been repeatedly used to encourage the very worst of it.





<HR>
<center>http://www.misterwright.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/brockyaksig.jpg
<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#CCCCCC">Me on my hols in Russia</FONT></center>

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 07:06 PM
Just name one armed conflict caused entirely by religion.

You find none.

People were slaying each other long before they thought about religion. What happened to Neandertalians? Why do the oldest human settlements have very thick walls?

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 07:14 PM
How about the crusades,the irish problem with Catholics v Protestants ,

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 07:21 PM
What the God meant in saying Do not take my name in vain, BaldieJr, is that you don't say it without meaning it. When you say Jesus Christ, MEAN Jesus Christ.

The Young Lions in the Forest suffer and lack, But thoser who know the Lord Shall not want of any good thing. Keep your tongue from Evil and your lips from speaking deciet. Depart from evil, do good and pursue it!

>Psalms

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 07:26 PM
J18_Weed wrote:
- "implies that some 90% of children die before they
- reach the age of 4. In this way you don't need all
- those unnatural medicaments, because those who
- managed to survive have a very healthy immunological
- system."
-
-
-
- What would be so bad about that ...there are 6
- billion
- of us ....What we need is a big die off a pluage or
- some kind of mass death on par with black death in
- europe....
-
- All goverments need to impose a 1 child per family
- rule for at least 30 years.
-

I can not resist this little fellow any longer.

Who do you think you are? In another post you claim christians have all the answers, and then try to cram your own beliefs up everyones rear.

You are now saying that "we" need death in order to carry on the species properly. Luckily, you've not crossed the line and claimed to know who should be removed from the planet and who shouldnt, so you aren't Satan (yet).

I do take issue with your amazing idea that would allow GOVERNMENT to choose who breeds and who doesn't. Since time and time again, government has proven itself corrupt, I don't like the idea of lesser genes being propagated because little Johnies dad won the lottery and can therefore BUY himself an enlarged family from a self-serving politician.

Billions of years of selective breeding gets convientiently tossed aside so President Me Me can buy a gold-plated SUV.

If you are so darned concerned with preservation of species, why don't you become a Martyr of Ignorance and chop off your own family tree PRIOR to the spread of RAMPANT STUPIDITY. By doing this, you'll not only 'make room' for better genes, but prove that you are man who stands behind his own convictions (that'll teach us!).

If you must regurgitate in this thread, do us a favor and minimalize the damage. Rather than toss in a mega-ton bomb of tomfoolery, stick with grenade-sized spasms of *******edness.

You asked for this monologue, so I DARE you to poke back at me.

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XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 07:29 PM
still fighting about religion?

just to make you think...

every german soldier in ww2 had a belt where was inscribed "god with us" in german...



<center><img src=http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg></center>

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 07:29 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
- Just name one armed conflict caused entirely by
- religion.
-
- You find none.

No, I find plenty. The vast majority of the worlds conflicts are fueled on religious doctrine from Northern Ireland sectarianism close to me in the UK to the Israel/Palestine situation in the middle east.


- People were slaying each other long before they
- thought about religion. What happened to
- Neandertalians? Why do the oldest human settlements
- have very thick walls?

Actually I think you'll find sentient people, no matter how old, have always worshiped in one way or another. The Australian Aboriginie's go back 40,000 years- that far back enough for you? As for people slaying each other, conflict is part of human nature and increasingly so as you go back in time and people become less civilised. It's a seperate issue from whether religion is a source of the worlds peace or pain though.

So, they built thick walls to protect themselves from the tribe over the way who had different Gods to them, oh, and don't forget they had primitive tools and it was probably quite cold /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif





<HR>
<center>http://www.misterwright.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/brockyaksig.jpg
<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#CCCCCC">Me on my hols in Russia</FONT></center>

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 07:34 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
- Just name one armed conflict caused entirely by
- religion.
-
- You find none.

Was gonna mention the crusades but was beaten to it. The Inquisition wasn't so much a war, but it had similar effects. History is full of such things unfortunately.


- People were slaying each other long before they
- thought about religion. What happened to
- Neandertalians?

Nobody is entirely sure what happened to the Neanderthals. Cromangon did have religion though. Examples of religious relics and artwork have been found in their encampments and burials.

In fact, that is the prime difference between the 2 types. Some thing that the Cromangon wiped out the Neanderthal. I doubt it. They were highly intelligent with bigger brains than we have, and far stronger and more robust. Some think that we intermingled and interbred. Last I heard on the subject this was a dying theory.

Most likely, the Neanderthals died out from a change in environment.

One thing unique about them was a lack of art work on just about any kind. This indicates a lack of abstract thought capabilities. This would severely limit their adaptability to changing climatic conditions.

In the end, I tend to agree with the latest thinking, they just died out because they couldn't adapt.

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 07:38 PM
CrazyBell wrote:
- What the God meant in saying Do not take my name in
- vain, BaldieJr, is that you don't say it without
- meaning it. When you say Jesus Christ, MEAN Jesus
- Christ.
-
- The Young Lions in the Forest suffer and lack, But
- thoser who know the Lord Shall not want of any good
- thing. Keep your tongue from Evil and your lips from
- speaking deciet. Depart from evil, do good and
- pursue it!
-
- >Psalms
-

I'll agree that it *could* be what God meant. However, without speaking with him directly, its difficult to say what he truely meant.

Interpretation is everything.

If I tell you that God told me directly "You may say 'god damn' when you stub your toe.", would you think I was crazy? No doubt.

Who is going to say he didn't talk to me directly? Certainly not a christian, who claims to believe.

Or do we believe only the parts that we want?

Its a tough nut to crack, when you think about it. So why bother with the minute details of saying 'god damn' when there are much more important things to think about?

The entire point of this entire thread is: everyone has thier own ideas of how things should be. We all suffer when others force thier interpretations on others.

Stop reading passages of the bible. Try CHAPTERS instead, you'll get a much better understanding of what God is all about.

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XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 07:41 PM
I know it's not wise but I somehow have the urge to say somthing about this, because I 'kinda' agree with Weed, I like his callsign and feel he's misinterpreted.


BaldieJr wrote:
-
- J18_Weed wrote:

[snip]
--
-- All goverments need to impose a 1 child per family
-- rule for at least 30 years.
--
Luckily, you've not
- crossed the line and claimed to know who should be
- removed from the planet and who shouldnt, so you
- aren't Satan (yet).

[snip]

What was said about removing? not breeding is entirily different.

- I do take issue with your amazing idea that would
- allow GOVERNMENT to choose who breeds and who
- doesn't. Since time and time again, government has
- proven itself corrupt, I don't like the idea of
- lesser genes being propagated because little Johnies
- dad won the lottery and can therefore BUY himself an
- enlarged family from a self-serving politician.

He said one kid per family, not 'people selecting who can and cannot breed'





<center>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.bryant3/ETSigHolland.gif

'Smoke and a pancake?'</center>

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 07:47 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
- Too many people is bad for the planet, but I would
- avoid using this word with s.
- For my simple, chauvinistic, expansionistic, (...)
- mind, the answer is colonisation. Of other planets
- in this case.

Too many people is bad for people too. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif The rest is my opinion formed from study of history, current events, and personal encounters.


- You can question my numbers (I do not hide the fact
- I took them from my head) but you cannot question
- the fact that without modern medicine (vaccinations,
- antibiotics) _most_ children died before reaching
- the maturity.

I can question that too though. There are a few hunter gatherer tribes around still. They do *quite* well. In fact, they even have more free time than we do. lol

That method of living proved successful planet-wide for 10's of thousands of years. If the survival rate was so low, we would not be here today. Also, there are many who are quite healthy without the aid of western medicine. Holistics are more potent than many western scholars and Drs believe.

Finally, we may be forming a parasitic, cyclical relationship with our western medicine. The more that we save who otherwise would not have survived, the more we re-circulate those weak genes, and the more we need to save with said technology. I hope nobody reads into that statement, it's just an observation, not a judgement.


- Still, the horses (or killing them off) remain.

I doubt this. They were excellent horsemen (still are) and have a way with animals in general. And their beleif system would prohibit them from abusing an animal in such a way to begin with.

Much of our conceptions of them comes from our ancestors - the victors. They wrote the history books unfortunately. And they have never shown any concern for setting the record straight as it pertains to the nations that occupied this land first.


- Yes - unless we move (to conquer/populate/destroy
- another land /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif )

Nothing wrong with colonizing other planets, or creating habitable environments where there are none (like Mars), but there's only so much room on this rock. Our current ideals are not working. 6 billion is just too many.


- Yes and in order to get it under _control_ we have
- religion. Or NKVD. I prefer religion.

I think you are looking at it the other way around. Religion is a perfect means to subjugate. It keeps the leaders in power and the people in fear. Yes, it does have a possible benefit for giving people guidance on how to live, but those are basic principles that just plain make sense. Violent creature or not.


- Possibly. I try not to quarrel but to discuss with
- you since I am positively impressed by both the
- contents and the form of your posts. I am just
- throwing a grain of salt /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif )

Thanks. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif S

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 08:04 PM
Why isn't this thread locked??? Oh sorry freedom of speech. For sure it's seems ok to do this when the one's with the power are in agreeance with the general points being made. I am a pretty good bloke (I know I am) and I find this thread offensive and manipulative.

This is NOT the American Bible belt it it a FRIGGIN FLIGHT SIM FORUM,,,,, mm.

What a load of s**t. How dare you suggest that because I swear sometimes I am going down Satans path,,, pah. What a load of old pretentiuos quasi intellectual cra* written by many others as well.

Sorry for the bad spelling and English but I am angry. For sure I hope I get comments back from some smug *ucker telling me that I am illustrating the point by my reaction,,, I dont give a damn this is a flight sim forum and this should be on a religious site somewhere.

I tell you what all you believers can do,,,,,,,, Go join a cult

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 08:16 PM
"Who do you think you are?"

Im someone posting my opinion Mr thumper.. same as you..
dont like it....to bad....



"You are now saying that "we" need death in order to
carry on the species properly"


As far as i know thats the way all species do it..



"I do take issue with your amazing idea that would
allow GOVERNMENT to choose who breeds and who
doesn't"


Its your soapbox......



"Billions of years of selective breeding gets
convientiently tossed aside so President Me Me can buy a gold-plated SUV"


I dont drive..


"If you are so darned concerned with preservation of
species, why don't you become a Martyr of Ignorance
and chop off your own family tree PRIOR to the
spread of RAMPANT STUPIDITY. By doing this, you'll
not only 'make room' for better genes, but prove
that you are man who stands behind his own
convictions (that'll teach us!)."



Were did I say that I was concerned with preservation of
species ..no danger of man going extinct anytime soon
so no need to be coccerned....There are way to many as is..
And I wouldnt miss you either lil guy....


POKE POKE PROD....

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 08:20 PM
relax dude!

<center>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.bryant3/ETSigHolland.gif

'Smoke and a pancake?'</center>

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 08:21 PM
jellyhead wrote:
- Why isn't this thread locked???

I couldn't agree more when it brings out your kind of posting response.

Such vehemence about a simple issue as to whether to stop the cussing or not is way out of line. Too much caffeine?

It makes a difference to some users not to have cussing. Most users could care less, and overall I'd say cussing doesn't make a difference to anyone other than those that don't like it. So...if there is no cussing, everyone will be OK with it.

It's an easy decision...

------------------ /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



Message Edited on 11/12/0301:26PM by nearmiss

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 08:28 PM
oFZo wrote:
-
- I know it's not wise but I somehow have the urge to
- say somthing about this, because I 'kinda' agree
- with Weed, I like his callsign and feel he's
- misinterpreted.

Indeed.

- BaldieJr wrote:
--
-- J18_Weed wrote:
-
- [snip]
---
--- All goverments need to impose a 1 child per family
--- rule for at least 30 years.
---
- Luckily, you've not
-
-- crossed the line and claimed to know who should be
-- removed from the planet and who shouldnt, so you
-- aren't Satan (yet).
-
- [snip]
-
- What was said about removing? not breeding is
- entirily different.

I know what he said. He, like so many others, has not accepted the fact that HE TOO is one of us. He 'hopes' for plague of famine, but does not DO anything to further his idea of a better race. Why? Because he DOES NOT believe what he says. Neither do you. If you so believe that the planet needs a douching, why are you posting this on the interweb, rather than inveting a better solution to genocide?

Your arguments are WEAK. I suspect it has something to do with 'weed' and your obvious lack of motivation.

-- I do take issue with your amazing idea that would
-- allow GOVERNMENT to choose who breeds and who
-- doesn't. Since time and time again, government has
-- proven itself corrupt, I don't like the idea of
-- lesser genes being propagated because little Johnies
-- dad won the lottery and can therefore BUY himself an
-- enlarged family from a self-serving politician.
-
- He said one kid per family, not 'people selecting
- who can and cannot breed'
-

I know what he said, and what it implys.

Are you married? Do you like having the choice of not being married in order to breed? Would not the 'fair' thing to do after a marriage has been disolved be to destroy the life born into it? Do you people ever think one step further than your hair-brained ideas?

Are you stoners finished, or do you want more?

I appologize to the other posters, but this 'weed' fellow has made it a point to harrass me via PM. I have decided to accept his challenge of wits publicly, and therefore will be directing all efforts to him and anyone who defends his offensive behavior.

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XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 08:34 PM
J18_Weed wrote:
- "Who do you think you are?"
-
- Im someone posting my opinion Mr thumper.. same as
- you..
-
- dont like it....to bad....
-
-
-
-
- "You are now saying that "we" need death in order to
-
-
- carry on the species properly"
-
-
-
- As far as i know thats the way all species do it..
-
-
-
-
- "I do take issue with your amazing idea that would
- allow GOVERNMENT to choose who breeds and who
-
- doesn't"
-
-
-
- Its your soapbox......
-
-
-
-
- "Billions of years of selective breeding gets
- convientiently tossed aside so President Me Me can
- buy a gold-plated SUV"
-
-
- I dont drive..
-
-
-
- "If you are so darned concerned with preservation of
-
-
- species, why don't you become a Martyr of Ignorance
-
-
- and chop off your own family tree PRIOR to the
-
- spread of RAMPANT STUPIDITY. By doing this, you'll
-
- not only 'make room' for better genes, but prove
-
- that you are man who stands behind his own
-
- convictions (that'll teach us!)."
-
-
-
-
- Were did I say that I was concerned with
- preservation of
- species ..no danger of man going extinct anytime
- soon
-
- so no need to be coccerned....There are way to many
- as is..
- And I wouldnt miss you either lil guy....
-
-
-
- POKE POKE PROD....
-
-
-

Hahahahaha.

Never argue with an idiot, he'll just bring you down to his level, and beat you with experience.

You win.

<font face="Courier New">

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XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 08:39 PM
You have your views on the subject and I have mine...


"Because he DOES NOT believe what he says"

You is wrong be shure........



I find your tripe offensive ....But you are free to say what you will .....

Nothing you say will change my opinion on the subject
nor will I tuck it under and scurry away because it ticks you off...Go pop a PBR and fly your Johnny reb flag in the back of your rusty peacup ..

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 08:40 PM
Baldie,

I merely thought you misinterpreted and pointed that out.
I only said to 'kinda' agree with the viewpoint expressed in that single post, not to agree with the poster in general.

If you interpreted that one post I defended the way you claim in your last post adressed at me, you wouldn't have reacted the way you did.

- Are you married? Do you like having the choice of
- not being married in order to breed? Would not the
- 'fair' thing to do after a marriage has been
- disolved be to destroy the life born into it?

What are you saying now man? 'to destroy the life born into it', are you talking about abortion now? I never mentioned that, keep the oil away from the fire & such.

Where did you get the thought I'm into the practice of killing people when their parents divorce? I never said anything even close to that and you simply imply I think that way, that's seriously bananas, mr.

<center>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.bryant3/ETSigHolland.gif

'Smoke and a pancake?'</center>

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 08:40 PM
Jesus wouldn't post crap like this.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files2/111103-Rogo3.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



Message Edited on 11/12/0311:41AM by Rogodin

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 08:44 PM
I enjoyed the perceived link of profanity to the social demise of your boyhood friends.

If I were you, I would instead be more concerned with your daughters watching people theatrically destroyed in war as entertainment with Grandpa than whether they let loose with an occasional "SH#T!!!" when something doesn't quite go their way.

Cracks me up how violence is OK, but saying something isn't.

What a joke.

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 08:47 PM
Look there! It's Santa flying with the Easter Bunny riding shotgun! Oh wait - it's Jesus....


Rally round the campfire, Bible beaters.

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 08:51 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
-
-- J18_Weed wrote:
-- POKE POKE PROD....
-
- Hahahahaha.
-
- Never argue with an idiot, he'll just bring you down
- to his level, and beat you with experience.
-
- You win.

BaldieJr.. save your energy, weed is just a troll, he does not belive anything he says, he just takes up the side of oposition to argue.. In that is the only way he can get anyone to talk to him!



<div style="width:700;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3>
</div>


Message Edited on 11/12/0311:53AM by tagert

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 09:12 PM
"he just takes up the side of oposition to argue.. In that is the only way he can get anyone to talk to him! "


I guess I do take the side that you call the oposition
as my opinions are the oposit of the bible thumpers...

argue,debate,tit for tat,trading barbs,stating ones views ..Call it what ever you want...

Say what you will I have a thick skin and will lose no sleep over the ramblings of a redneck ....

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 09:15 PM
tagert wrote:
- BaldieJr wrote:
--
--- J18_Weed wrote:
--- POKE POKE PROD....
--
-- Hahahahaha.
--
-- Never argue with an idiot, he'll just bring you down
-- to his level, and beat you with experience.
--
-- You win.
-
- BaldieJr.. save your energy, weed is just a troll,
- he does not belive anything he says, he just takes
- up the side of oposition to argue.. In that is the
- only way he can get anyone to talk to him!
-
-

I know. I realized this when he said "I don't drive".

I'm still laughing about his response.

oFZo, no offense meant to you. I don't think you've abosorbed all this is in this thread, nor do I think you meant to take up arms in defense of weed. I hope no ill feelings exist between us... they certainly do not exist from my perspective.

Unless of course, you attempt to take away my ace pin or my trim! :-)

As for the many people who read a short bit of this and imediately began the "bible-thumper" comments; I have this for you all:

I'm an ace, sent by god. Through his devine order I fly with precision, scoring at will. Do not worry yourselves with "who is RBJ?", just do yourselves a favor and stay on the tarmac untill you have mastered trim.

Hoorah!



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XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 09:19 PM
EDIT: (posted twice - see below)

Message Edited on 11/12/0308:20PM by M0NS

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 09:19 PM
I don't drive because I lost my licens....for 10 years..
I ran over a preacher...

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 09:19 PM
Yeah - we've not been locked yet - so let's not turn ugly on one another - please stop provoking & if you feel insulted then return your answer in a cool fashion.

May I bring back the first subject: Those who do not endorse profanity - could you enlighten us why you feel this way & perhaps provide some theological reason (if any)?

Thx




S!

M0NS (authorized P39 pyrotechnician)



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 09:28 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
- I doubt it; anytime the science answered a question
- it raised some more. Example Evolution: every time a
- "missing link" is found, two other missing links
- appear, the direct ancestor of the found species and
- the direct descendant. This is not my sentence; an
- acknowledged paleontologist said this, but I am
- quoting from my head. Neither he nor me is against
- evolution theory, obviously.

Well they are working from evidence that is millions of years old, of course its not a matter of yep there it is and done.


- I agree only partially. Religion also provides the
- way to think about your life in other aspects beside
- death. Say you see a nice car parked on a street
- side, keys inside, door open, and noone around. Say
- you are no rich enough to buy a car of the
- corresponding quality, say your family needs a mean
- of transportation. What do you think? The religion
- (most religions, I think) provide a clear answer
- "thou shall not steal". It's not a "fear of death
- issue", is it?
-

No its fear of punshment, people dont base there lifes on religous ideals that is why we have laws, im sure if there was no punshment for stealing a car then yes people would take it.





http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 09:28 PM
I'd suggest anyone thinking of responding...should consider the soure, and forget about it The mod is taking a nap!

The world of Ignorance is a blissful place for the ignorant.

It's a stressful place for the intelligent. LOL

I just can't stand myself sometimes...I'm so illuminated /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif LOL

------------------ /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif







Message Edited on 11/12/0302:28PM by nearmiss

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 09:29 PM
A few troll grenades and everything goes all to hell. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


M0NS, they already have. Early on it seemed to be 2 seperate issues. Many just not likeing the GDs and others having a problem with their kids hearing any "swear" words. The problem is that they really have not answered, here or in the other thread about this, why it's bad for kids to hear the words. As in, what's so bad about those words.

In the last thread, Adlabs had the most convincing argument, but I still contend that his stance is born out of something he learned from his parents and society at large. And it also sounds a bit "elitist" to me, but that's just my view of it.

The others though, no real answer unfortunately. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 09:39 PM
HellToupee wrote:
-- I agree only partially. Religion also provides the
-- way to think about your life in other aspects beside
-- death. Say you see a nice car parked on a street
-- side, keys inside, door open, and noone around. Say
-- you are no rich enough to buy a car of the
-- corresponding quality, say your family needs a mean
-- of transportation. What do you think? The religion
-- (most religions, I think) provide a clear answer
-- "thou shall not steal". It's not a "fear of death
-- issue", is it?
--
-
- No its fear of punshment, people dont base there
- lifes on religous ideals that is why we have laws,
- im sure if there was no punshment for stealing a car
- then yes people would take it.

Not everyone needs a fear of punishment. In times of old, people were quick to beleive almost anything. They just weren't very sophisticated.

This tendency to beleive and general chaos made religion the obvious choice to get people inline. It was also the only way because people were too thinly spread to have NKVD types anyway.

Now, we have the popultion density, but also people are (generally) more sophisticated and so aren't so quick to beleive. Especially as there is strong competition in that arena.

Unfortunately, there is still a lack of upbringing, and so some means of control is needed to keep people inline. Since religion no longer works, and we have the population density and technology, we use laws now.

Thing is, fear of punishment is not really necessary. I would choose not to steal the car. Not because I fear retribution in the afterlife, or even because I feared getting caught. Too unlikely to get caught really. No, I would not do it because it's against my principles. Which, in short, are basically an extension of the "golden rule". I know how much it would pi$$ me off. I don't want people stealing from me, so I won't steal from others.

Of course, if people stood up for themselves (and were legally allowed too), the law wouldn't have to be so strict in the first place because the fear of retribution would be more immediate and more effective. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

But the key is upbringing. And unfortunately, I must say that I don't think that everyone should be entitled to having children. Certainly not everyone is capable of handling the responsibilities that go along with it, as we see. And in so doing (or not doing) they tread upon my rights. That creates a problem. But this could go off an yet another tangent if I keep going. lol

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 09:56 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
- I know. I realized this when he said "I don't
- drive".
-
- I'm still laughing about his response.

That one made me laugh too.. And then the more I thought about it... kind of made me pitty him... Sad really.

- As for the many people who read a short bit of this
- and imediately began the "bible-thumper" comments; I
- have this for you all:
-
- I'm an ace, sent by god. Through his devine order I
- fly with precision, scoring at will. Do not worry
- yourselves with "who is RBJ?", just do yourselves a
- favor and stay on the tarmac untill you have
- mastered trim.

LOL! Master-O-D-Trim!


<div style="width:700;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 09:59 PM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
- A few troll grenades and everything goes all to
- hell.

- M0NS, they already have. Early on it seemed to be 2
- seperate issues. Many just not likeing the GDs and
- others having a problem with their kids hearing any
- "swear" words. The problem is that they really have
- not answered, here or in the other thread about
- this, why it's bad for kids to hear the words. As
- in, what's so bad about those words.
-
- In the last thread, Adlabs had the most convincing
- argument, but I still contend that his stance is
- born out of something he learned from his parents
- and society at large. And it also sounds a bit
- "elitist" to me, but that's just my view of it.
-
- The others though, no real answer unfortunately.

Hmmm... - yes, this is why I ask again - but it seems it's in vain. I would just like to know the reason & maybe a reason based on something - if somebody had, you know, thought about it...


S!

M0NS (authorized P39 pyrotechnician)



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 10:20 PM
I was very amused by this thread, and took the time to read through everyone's ideas just out of my own intrest. I thought just about everyone here spoke intelligently and courteously among themselves about a very touchy (and personal) subject...until I came upon J18weed. He's obviously a very angry, unhappy young man. I think its a shame that he felt he needed to attack Baldie via PM's. Like I said, I read everyone's posts out of my own intrest, and not once did I read anything mean or vindictive in Baldie's posts, but Mr. Weed found it necessary to get mean and nasty (I can only imagine the baloney he spouted in the PMs to Baldie). I feel very sorry for people like J18Weed...the reason I decided he is 'young' (the angry and unhappy part is obvious), is that only a young person would have the false-bravado to say some of the things he did. Referring to God as a "dicksmack" was totally uncalled for, and was the only thing in this entire thread that offended me. I'm open to everyone's opinions, especially on a subject as touchy as this...but blatant name-calling such as that would only come from a person as angry and insecure as himself.
Baldie, I hope (and can tell) that you have the intelligence to disregard Weed's unintelligent rantings, and I truly wish we could all hear Weed's thoughts on God when he is laying on his death-bed, or (God-forbid...) learn he or someone he loves has cancer, or something like that. Such a callous, mean-hearted view of things in general will change as he gains wisdom...and in the end, (your choice of higher power here) God will forgive him.
Everyone knows there are no athiests in foxholes, and Mr. Weed will change his views someday, and regret the ignorant comments he has so thoughtlessly thrown around.

Aside from this, I commend everyone here on their intelligent discussion of such a touchy subject!

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 10:25 PM
Nearmiss,

I apologise for the vehemence in my response, actually it is not enough sleep!!

My problem with the post is not about "cussin" in pc games etc it's more to do with the inference that a good Christian upbringing makes good people.

What is wrong with that I hear you say! It is patently untrue!!!

Someone said this b4 but reckon alright to weald the axe,,, as long as it's done politely,,, with God on your side of course.. ha ha.

It's not a small issue it's the thin end of a very nasty wedge,,,,, i.e. being brainwashed.

Good luck to all those who believe this is just a harmless "nice guy" thing, I personally find it frightening and play pc games to get away from basket cases like that, the last thing I wanna see is that sort of thinking infiltrating here.

Makes me laugh and cry at the same time

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 10:40 PM
WOW, having been involved at the start of this sad thread, and having read some of its latest (and hopefully) last posts, it amazes me that it all started from one parent's concern regarding swearing in the game. Other parents shared that concern. Most, like me, felt the swearing in this game was limited and not substantial. Some military folks indicated that such swearing over the comms was unrealistic.

If nothing else, the various opinions and down right opposition expressed in this thread is a good illustration of society's dislike of endeavouring to instill morals into our children in today's meaningless relativity.

With regards to the folks who still can't figure out what is so harmful about things like swearing, it reminded me about the fool who thought adults should be allowed to have sex with minors (legally), since we're all born sexual beings and this would provide helpful education for them.

If nothing really matters, then we're living at the right time, just go watch the news and see the increasing lawlessness and chaos our society is falling into with regards to morality, ethics, and the pursuit of higher ideals of life.

"When you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there."

Perhaps we can wrap this topic up soon. While it is an important debate, a debate that can't be won by either side. It can only be lived.

Regards

A Gamer and an Active Parent

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 10:49 PM
zipppie wrote:
- but Mr. Weed found it necessary to
- get mean and nasty (I can only imagine the baloney
- he spouted in the PMs to Baldie).

Well if it is anything like the stuff I recived from J18_Weed via PM it only confirms you assesment of him.. Mad, Lonely, Angry and Unhappy. I dont think your imgination could even begin to belive what he can spew out via PMs.. Every 4 letter word and comments about following my kids home from school to offer them candy.. And everything inbetween. Im not going to loose any sleep over it though.. In that I realise it is just his way of getting some sort of att from anyone... Sad.. Truly Sad.. And in my 10+ years on the net.. He takes the cake! A real poster child of the little man in the dark room with one lamp and a PC.


<div style="width:700;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 11:01 PM
TacticalSkirmsh wrote:
- If nothing else, the various opinions and down right
- opposition expressed in this thread is a good
- illustration of society's dislike of endeavouring to
- instill morals into our children in today's
- meaningless relativity.

Not all are opposed. Only those who value independence and freedom and don't like being limited just because someone else heard something they didn't like. Also, there is the lack of logic in the situation to begin with.


- With regards to the folks who still can't figure out
- what is so harmful about things like swearing, it
- reminded me about the fool who thought adults should
- be allowed to have sex with minors (legally), since
- we're all born sexual beings and this would provide
- helpful education for them.

This is an answer or response?

No offense, but, do you really expect to have anyone think "good point", other than perhaps your choir (in the figurative sense, as in, "preaching to the choir").

You reference an issue that has nothing to do with the price of rice in China and attempt to draw a parallel. And....that issue is full of problems of it's own to begin with.


- If nothing really matters, then we're living at the
- right time, just go watch the news and see the
- increasing lawlessness and chaos our society is
- falling into with regards to morality, ethics, and
- the pursuit of higher ideals of life.

We live with a lower crime rate than we have had for a century or more. There are fewer wars taking place world wide. Quality of life is generally up all around. There are problems, yes, many of them. But they are magnified by the sensationalistic press which makes it seem like a far worse problem than it is. I'm reminded of Baldies remarks about giving up control by remaining unknowledgeble.

Either way, a respectful, civlilized, dare I say, "enlightened", society does not require Christian ideals. Such societies existed here for thousands of years. And even in southern Europe - we can't exactly forget or dismiss the Greeks. Or even in Asia. I think the problem is that many Christians seem to think that anyone who doesn't share their view is a lawless uncivilized beast bent on destruction of society and needs to be converted. This is a serious problem. Without using those exact words you have hinted at that very concept in your post. Fortunately not all are like that, but enough that the group as an aggregate is frightening.


- "When you don't know where you are going, any road
- will take you there."

"It's not the destination, but the journey, that matters."

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 11:12 PM
Wrong

http://www.mindspring.com/~alutiiq/atheists-in-foxholes.html


Do some searching before you make such statments....



"Weed's thoughts on God when he is laying on his death-bed,"

I will have the same thoughts I have now ....Nothing will change ..death is all that will be in the end of my life.
And Im not the least bit concerned about death its giong to happen nothing can be done about it...I just exsept it as a fact of life...And Im not young ..but think what you will...



Wrong again

"or (God-forbid...) learn he or someone he loves has
cancer, or something like that."

My mother died of diabetes it took longer than any cancer
to kill her ..yet I didnt ask this god fella for anything as I dont think he exists so It would be pointless and
hypocritical...

I was raised in a strictly un christian home no symbols of touture (t) on the wall no pics of a blond blue eyed Jesus.
Or any other symbols of worship... The word worship sounds so stupid..

1 chiefly British : a person of importance -- used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem ....PFTTTTT


I was givin a choice to beleve what I chose to beleve..
And thats not going to change ever....

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 11:26 PM
Tagrat ....every pm that ive recived from you has been an insult to my mother so save the poor innocent me crap .. every one of them is a childish dig at a person thats been dead for years yet you take a sick delight in insulting a person you have never meet....after i told you how she died.you say she deserved it...
My mother died a horrable slow death ....Yet you pm making lite of it..
Now make one of your crude commints in an open fourm about her.. show us what a ...and i quoat "Real Man" has to say about it...stfu hypocrite

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 11:30 PM
J18_Weed wrote:
- Tagrat ....every pm that ive recived from you has
- been an insult to my mother so save the poor
- innocent me crap .. every one of them is a childish
- dig at a person thats been dead for years yet you
- take a sick delight in insulting a person you have
- never meet....after i told you how she died.you say
- she deserved it...
- My mother died a horrable slow death ....Yet you
- pm making lite of it..
-
- Now make one of your crude commints in an open fourm
- about her.. show us what a ...and i quoat "Real Man"
- has to say about it...stfu hypocrite

Weed.. belive what ever makes you feel better! The fact that you have attack severl here via PM speaks for itself about who said and says what.



<div style="width:700;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 11:32 PM
Mons, if your still reading this lets see if I can make some sense.

1st let me state I was raised by a "bible thumpin family" in the heart of the "bible belt"

The original post was I think , about taking the lords name in vein. Now if you eccept the bible as THE LITERAL word of GOD, then to do this , is a very bad thing.

It makes no mention of offensive langauge, that falls into the relm of preference. Preference is probably what alienates so many against orginized religions.

My mother , had a good heart and good intentions, as did most of the church goers I was raised around. What they didn't have for the most part was a measure of objectivity.

When they said, Its offensive to the lord, what they really meant was I don't appove. If you disagree with me, we will use religion to try and persecute your beliefs. Stop trying to apply logic when trying to figure out why they find certain words offensive because there is a very good chance that they applied none when deciding what words god doesn't want their kids to hear.

I have a list of those myself but probably differnent tham some. I hate when my kids hear things like...bigot,,,greed,,,unreasoning hatred with no justification,,,,one thing they never hear is, I'm right, case closed. If god didn't want you to think, you'd have a CD RW instaed of a brain.



Message Edited on 11/12/03 10:34PM by J.D.Carter

Message Edited on 11/12/0310:35PM by J.D.Carter

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 01:08 AM
For God's sake people (pun intended!).

This thread is spiraling downward due to pointless 'you suck!' 'no, you suck!' posts despite the best efforts of the majority to keep things civil.

As for the atheist in fox holes rubbish, well, its a nice line but some of us have as much conviction as you guys claim for yourselves! I've seen death close up, at no point did I question my convictions because, though I was upset, I was still at ease with my own version of why we are here and what happens when we are no longer.


We STILL don't have an answer as to why it is OK for children to partake in virtual killing but so very damaging for them to hear "GD" spoken in context aside from the rather limp "well, if you don't know then..."






<HR>
<center>http://www.misterwright.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/brockyaksig.jpg
<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#CCCCCC">Me on my hols in Russia</FONT></center>

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 01:25 AM
J18weed...
I really hate to lower myself to the depths from which your posts come...I should just ignore you and move on to the interesting, more relevant posts here (which are just about every one except you), but tagert just confirms what I thought, and I really wish he and Baldie would take this up with the moderators and get you banned from this site. You pretty much ruined this civilized, intelligent discussion, and I think most of us could have done without hearing from you.
You post your personal information here, as if anyone reading has any intrest at all in where you come from, and who you are. There's really not much you can do to change the opinion that most of us here have already formed of you. Anyone who would threaten another's children is really scraping the bottom of the barrell, and that alone should get you banned. I don't know (or care) if you even PLAY IL2, and from what I've read, and the number of posts you have here at this forum I feel that you just jumped into this thread to be mean-spirited, and inflammatory...just getting your kicks pi$$ing regular, generally open minded forum users off. I think you would make alot of us very happy if you would just find another forum somewhere (preferrabley not having anything to do with IL2) where someone might be interested in your abusive, personal attacks. I wouldn't doubt though that you are enjoying yourself, and we will just have to ignore you till you go away. I realize I'm just inviting more of your nastiness...so I urge everyone else to just ignore you, and as of this last post I will do the same. Its just a shame that you have access to anyone's PMs here. I really do feel sorry for you, and I hope you find more happiness in life than you let on. You have my sympathies concerning your mother, and I really find it hard to believe that you wouldn't rather believe that she is comfortable and happy watching over you, than just winking out like an old light bulb.
Take care of yourself, find another forum, and just sit back and smoke some of that J18weed and mellow out?!

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 03:28 AM
J18_Weed wrote:
- No matter what you say to the christian types thay
- have
- an answer .....It boils down to this when your dead
- your dead and thats it....No one can show proof
- beyond a doubt that there is life after death no one
- has and no one ever will...Its all about an after
- life or lack of one....



actually J18_Weed the purpose of humankind wasnt to grow old & die

if Adam didnt do what he did wrong he would have carried on as god made him

leading a live with gods approval , living under the conditions that god wanted humans to enjoy

the fire & brimstone is a warped teaching

the view the god will torment you for eternity for a short period of sinning is also erroneous

ecclesiastes states that the wages sin pays is death & it also says in ecclesiastes that the dead are concious of nothing at all

the point of leading a godly life is because he promises to take ownership back of the earth & restore to life all that deserve to live

the spirit sons the rebelled against god will be removed from earth where they were banished too

to this day evolution is still a theory .... very advanced & detailed but lacking in major critical evidence of certian important links

for chemical evolution to have happened on the acient earth Unbelieveable odds would have to have been beaten thousands of times

it was a enviroment totally unsuited to chemical evolution but that is another loooong discussion lol

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 04:19 AM
Ahhh, welcome to the monkey house.

I'm not going to get involved in this little argument about beliefs. Unless someone absolutely BEGS to hear them. They are different...

I believe the original subject of the post was profanity, which I think is fine in this sort of context. I DON'T think people who disagree should be verbally stomped on. I do think an option to turn it off should be made more accessible to those less intimate with their Il-2 directory system (i.e. in-game).

Y'all have a real nice day, you hear?

***************************************

"Oh no, the V-1 Doodlebug is heading for our bunghole!" ---David

"...I possess the wings of faith. Though heavy on my shoulder (no measurement can prove their weight), still a burden are they not to me. I am the challenger of gravity." ---Emperor

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 05:04 AM
once upon a time there was a little corporal who could.

could what you ask?

fit right in with dog-fearing worshippers of the faceless dog described below.

Striker-PBNA wrote:
- In my bible, Old Testament, the God of Israel, the
- God I believe in and worship this day, sanctioned
- the total annilation of tribes that stood in the way
- of His people reaching the land he promised to them
- in the time of Moses. I mean nothing was allowed to
- be left breathing including women and children and
- all the animals of that particular tribe of people.
-
- So doing a little virtual killing playing FB dosen't
- bother me. The profanity I could do without, but
- there are alot of things I could do without
- pertaining to my personal relationship with God. S!

that corporal, a failed Austrian painter once asked "who remembers the Armenians?"

now i ask those with faith in their imaginary friend... ever read "his" book and make a point to remember the names of all those cities, cultures and races subjected to the oldtestament Final Solutions?

thought not. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 07:23 AM
you ever learn what kind of things those ppl were doing in that area ?

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 08:35 AM
I have never seen Oleg or heard him, yet I believe he exists by the fruits of his work... So he must exist...or does he????

By the way... What is YOUR favourite kind of CHEESE?
I like Aged Chedder from the Fancy's cheese plant in Wisconsin. How about you??

Nice discussion, but the wrong forum.




jba

The difficulty of making something fool proof is that fools are so da** creative. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 08:47 AM
Awww shucks.

I just thought I would have a quick peak to see where this had got. I was just about to leave and then:

WUAF_Badsight wrote:
- to this day evolution is still a theory .... very
- advanced & detailed but lacking in major critical
- evidence of certian important links
-
- for chemical evolution to have happened on the
- acient earth Unbelieveable odds would have to have
- been beaten thousands of times
-
- it was a enviroment totally unsuited to chemical
- evolution but that is another loooong discussion lol

Boyo, where do I even start with that one /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Actually.. I won't. I think you and I Badsight can respectfully disagree with each other on the issue of Evolutionary Theory /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif





"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

Message Edited on 11/13/0307:55AM by NegativeGee

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 09:05 AM
trumper wrote:
- How about the crusades,the irish problem with
- Catholics v Protestants ,
-
I am not expert on the Irish conflict, but the crusades, well, you should take more reading about them. The reasons were various: overpopulation of Europe (it was thought to be overpopulated by then...) especially with young landless knights, diverting the efforts of christian princes and kings from fighting each other towards a common target, deending the Byzantine Empire... The religion was the very last of reasons that moved those who moved. Yes it was cast upon the poor damned footmen and illiterate horsemen that the were going to fight for their holy faith, but noone in charge had any illusions...

And if you believe that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is droven by religious issues, then I am really wasting my time here.

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 09:11 AM
HellToupee wrote:
-
- HansKnappstick wrote:
-- I doubt it; anytime the science answered a question
-- it raised some more. Example Evolution: every time a
-- "missing link" is found, two other missing links
-- appear, the direct ancestor of the found species and
-- the direct descendant. This is not my sentence; an
-- acknowledged paleontologist said this, but I am
-- quoting from my head. Neither he nor me is against
-- evolution theory, obviously.
-
- Well they are working from evidence that is millions
- of years old, of course its not a matter of yep
- there it is and done.

My point is, the harder they work the more work is to be done. I am not saying that they work in vain, though.

-
-
-- Say you see a nice car parked on a street
-- side, keys inside, door open, and noone around. Say
-- you are no rich enough to buy a car of the
-- corresponding quality, say your family needs a mean
-- of transportation. What do you think? The religion
-- (most religions, I think) provide a clear answer
-- "thou shall not steal". It's not a "fear of death
-- issue", is it?
--
-
- No its fear of punshment, people dont base there
- lifes on religous ideals that is why we have laws,
-
Some do, especially in the countries where the law enforcement is weak.

- im sure if there was no punshment for stealing a car
- then yes people would take it.
I am very sorry for you. I would not. It is called morality, and as such it comes directly from the religion.

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 09:15 AM
Good lord,

I'm sorry i started this thread. YIKES !!! I think it should be locked. Time to move on to something else.

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 09:18 AM
So I said if you are really a skunk, why is your hat red?

its getting heavy in here i thought a little confusion was in order. cya papov good luck with things! S~~

http://www.ju52-3m.ch/bilder/wittstock.jpg

ahh its a crap plane anyway!!!
http://www.seanruppert.com/josh/porcopine.jpg


Message Edited on 11/13/0302:20AM by porcupine1

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 10:45 AM
HansKnappstick:

You certainly are wasting your time then my friend. To even begin to argue that religion was waaay down the order of importance to THE CRUSADES is just getting a bit silly. Sure there were other factors, money for one, but the landed gentry, princes and kings were among the most pious people in the country with the most enlightened, educated view of religious teaching available.

Religion is the prime fuel in conflict throughout history. Whether this be as part of a manipulation of the masses or via directly conflicting ideologies as in the Arab/Jewish situation in the Middle East.



WUAF_Badsight:

In answering some of the points here it looks like you are simply quoting verbatim from the bible and other religious texts. Apologies if I'm wrong but reading your posts don't give the impression that you have actually thought for yourself about the how and the why. The atheists and the agnostics here are asking for some better reasoning than that found by leafing through the 'good book' to find a suitable repost.
You'll be telling us that women were ACTUALLY made out of a rib bone next which, obviously is ludicrous, I mean where would you get the sugar and spice and all things nice from? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



Sabla:

I love buffalo mozzarella from Naples /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif





<HR>
<center>http://www.misterwright.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/brockyaksig.jpg
<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#CCCCCC">Me on my hols in Russia</FONT></center>

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 10:50 AM
Its just hopeless. I didn't know that people playing a historical simulation can have such an ignorance for history.

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 11:51 AM
WUAF_Badsight wrote:

- & the Bible is a book that has gone on for thousands
- of years being copied with incredible accuracy
-
- the message wasnt changed to suit different
- political or military climates
-
- not human traits
-
- also it has come under SEVER persecution with
- attempts to wipe it out that stretched hundreds of
- years
-
- but it remains as the most pubilished & most
- available book to human kind
-
- why is that ?
-
-



Mankind's instinctive fear and questioning of the unknown, and his ever lasting quest to know, so as to overcome that fear.

Everyone is looking for answers to their questions about that which they dont understand or fear, many of those questions, I believe, are unanswerable.
The Bible gives people Christianity's version of the answers to a lot of folks doubts and fears, it gives them something to believe in, something to cling to in their doubt and reassure them, and it has done for many centuries.
That doesnt make it fact, or indeed prove the existance of God, though it certainly makes the Bible worthy of much respect.

There's nothing to fear but the paralyzing chill of fear itself. There is, however, much to know and understand.

Just my opinion http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And on topic, simply remove or edit the offending bit of sound file, the sound files are entirely open.....change "GD" to "Bless your soul" if you like (ask your kids if you dont know how, it really is that easy)

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 12:28 PM
I remember when my Dad brought home a Commadoor (?) Pet computer home with him one day, ooooh, must've been way back in the very late seventies. The flight sim I wanted to write then looked exactly like FB does now.

Problem is, every virtual pilot I've killed in combat adds a little more virtual weight to my conscience, and I'm an agnostic facrissake!

Heigh-ho, back to the padded room and My Little Pony.

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 12:28 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
- Its just hopeless. I didn't know that people playing
- a historical simulation can have such an ignorance
- for history.

Frankly that's a bit of a cop out but, hey, at least we agree on something Hans.







<HR>
<center>http://www.misterwright.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/brockyaksig.jpg
<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#CCCCCC">Me on my hols in Russia</FONT></center>

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 01:00 PM
Wow, seven pages in just one day.. that's almost a record!

Almost....



http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/Fehler.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 01:01 PM
J.D.Carter wrote:
-
- Mons, if your still reading this lets see if I
- can make some sense.

I'm here - just went to sleep last night /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-
- 1st let me state I was raised by a "bible
- thumpin family" in the heart of the "bible belt"
-
-
- The original post was I think , about taking
- the lords name in vein. Now if you eccept the bible
- as THE LITERAL word of GOD, then to do this , is a
- very bad thing.

I do not - The Bible was written by human beings & it contains their thoughts on various theological issues in a narrative form as well as discourses.

- It makes no mention of offensive langauge, that
- falls into the relm of preference. Preference is
- probably what alienates so many against orginized
- religions.


Not sure I got that one right - but I guess you're saying that what you relish or is offended by is subjective?

- My mother , had a good heart and good
- intentions, as did most of the church goers I was
- raised around. What they didn't have for the most
- part was a measure of objectivity.
-
-
- When they said, Its offensive to the lord, what
- they really meant was I don't appove. If you
- disagree with me, we will use religion to try and
- persecute your beliefs. Stop trying to apply logic
- when trying to figure out why they find certain
- words offensive because there is a very good chance
- that they applied none when deciding what words god
- doesn't want their kids to hear.

You mean people have their own personal agenda but claims that it's been revealed to them making it divine indisputable truth?

- I have a list of those myself but probably
- differnent tham some. I hate when my kids hear
- things like...bigot,,,greed,,,unreasoning hatred
- with no justification,,,,one thing they never hear
- is, I'm right, case closed. If god didn't want you
- to think, you'd have a CD RW instaed of a brain.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

- J.D.Carter



S!

M0NS (authorized P39 pyrotechnician)



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 01:03 PM
%#$@$#$!&$@(_@*$%&@!#!#%$%

No need to curse Gods Name



"Major Baby Cakes" How cute /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif





<CENTER> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1068129235.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 01:14 PM
This is the official Catholic view, and the possition of the most Protestant and Orthodox Churches as well AFAIK that the BIble is the literal word of God, written by people who acted upon direct divine inspiration and thus wrote it down _without errors_ .

Thus someone arguing from the position of faith is allowed to use the literal meaning of the biblical words.

The rest is freely allowed to dismiss it, of course.

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 01:28 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
- This is the official Catholic view, and the
- possition of the most Protestant and Orthodox
- Churches as well AFAIK that the BIble is the literal
- word of God, written by people who acted upon direct
- divine inspiration and thus wrote it down _without
- errors_ .
-
- Thus someone arguing from the position of faith is
- allowed to use the literal meaning of the biblical
- words.
-
- The rest is freely allowed to dismiss it, of course.


True.... but there is room for differing interpretations however!

The Bible is full of passages that can be used in various ways.... a good example is the Jehovahs Witness's aversion to (whole) blood transfusion... this being based on a particular passage in the Bible. However most Christians (probably) don't subscribe to this view.

It's very sticky really.



"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

Message Edited on 11/13/0312:43PM by NegativeGee

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 01:34 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
- This is the official Catholic view, and the
- possition of the most Protestant and Orthodox
- Churches as well AFAIK that the BIble is the literal
- word of God, written by people who acted upon direct
- divine inspiration and thus wrote it down _without
- errors_ .

Agreed that this is this is their view - but it's not mine.
Having studied & worked with this for a long time I can assure you that mistakes have been made & modern interpretators must take this into consideration. These errors consist of miswritings, lost parts & anachronisms for the most part, however, this does not mean that the original writer didn't have the view upon his work mentioned above.

- Thus someone arguing from the position of faith is
- allowed to use the literal meaning of the biblical
- words.

Any usage can be justified to a degree but one must be aware of the contradictions & be careful not to use a single text out of it's original context for his own benefit/agenda.

- The rest is freely allowed to dismiss it, of course.

Guess I'm the rest... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



S!

M0NS (authorized P39 pyrotechnician)



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 01:34 PM
True. In fact the literal application of the Biblical text can (and has been) very dangerous if not restricted to the very domain of the private faith.

I just wanted to point out that a guy who gets offended by the alleged breaking of the 2nd commandment is from the logical point of view allowed to apply the literal meaning of this commandment to test this breaking.

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 01:40 PM
Hello Mons, I guess I already knew you to be intelligent enough to not need that explanation.

It was more for those posting that maybe have never dealt with someone who has a rigid belief system, like the one I was raised in.

Most who have identified themselves here as agnostics, do so because like someone stated, they question. You all have to understand that religion is very opposed to questioning its doctorine. Thats what they call Faith.

To question a doctorine is a lack there of.To actually disagree with their doctorines...well, they don't call it disagreeing, it was so wrong of you to not fall in line thatit needed its own name. Heresy and in the not to distant past these learned benevolents, these virtued warriors for god, simply tied you to a stake and burned you to death.

You can probably see how well I took to being told "Stop questioning and just accept that we speak on Gods behalf" " You'll understand when your older"

They were half right.

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 01:41 PM
Someone once said that the Bible in the hands of the wrong man is more dangerous than a bottle of whisky & a load gun!

S!

M0NS (authorized P39 pyrotechnician)



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 01:49 PM
J.D.Carter wrote:
-
-
-
- Hello Mons, I guess I already knew you to be
- intelligent enough to not need that explanation.
-
-
- It was more for those posting that maybe have
- never dealt with someone who has a rigid belief
- system, like the one I was raised in.
-
-
- Most who have identified themselves here as
- agnostics, do so because like someone stated, they
- question. You all have to understand that religion
- is very opposed to questioning its doctorine. Thats
- what they call Faith.
No, you can be very religious without a doctrine. Some religions do without any rigid doctrine. Many people nowadays have a faith (they say they believe in God) but do not feel constraint by any doctrine of any official church.
These three notions: faith - religion - doctrine have different meanings, at least for my simple mind.
-
- To question a doctorine is a lack there of.To
- actually disagree with their doctorines...well, they
- don't call it disagreeing, it was so wrong of you to
- not fall in line thatit needed its own name. Heresy
- and in the not to distant past these learned
- benevolents, these virtued warriors for god, simply
- tied you to a stake and burned you to death.
-
-
- You can probably see how well I took to being
- told "Stop questioning and just accept that we speak
- on Gods behalf" " You'll understand when your older"
-
I don't know about you, but we have 21st century here in Europe. Questioning the doctrine has stopped being called heresy quite a time ago. Also I come from a country were no heretic was burnt (witches were though) even in the deepest Middle Ages, nor afterwards. And it has always been called a catholic country.

I live in a country where a very serious questionning of the doctrine started, and I admire the guy who did it (to be clear: I admire Martin Luther). Still I consider my faith to be Roman Catholic. Are you going to make a call to the <un>Holy Inquisition?



Message Edited on 11/13/0301:57PM by HansKnappstick

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 02:02 PM
Its not called heresy here either Hans, I was illustrating a point. I will agree, that Martin Luther had big brass ones to make the stand he did, but in my opinion (as well as many scholers) the witchcraft trials were the ultimate form of heresy persecussion.


I will grant you a big S if you really do allow others their own thoughts and beliefs without trying to convince them they are doomed, If you do it defo puts you in the minority of religious types from my own experiances.


Now how about we agree to get back to something cool or meaningful about those airplanes, cus I feel the need for speed.

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 02:16 PM
J.D.Carter wrote:
-
-
-
- Now how about we agree to get back to something
- cool or meaningful about those airplanes, cus I feel
- the need for speed.
-

Ya - over & out - I'll be at hyperlobby! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



S!

M0NS (authorized P39 pyrotechnician)



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 02:24 PM
J.D.Carter wrote:
-
-
- Its not called heresy here either Hans, I was
- illustrating a point. I will agree, that Martin
- Luther had big brass ones to make the stand he did,
- but in my opinion (as well as many scholers) the
- witchcraft trials were the ultimate form of heresy
- persecussion.
I am no expert here, but I would say this was a BigBrother - Ersatz by then. Fun watching a really hot naked girl... Seriously, those heartless swines in the Dominican dresses needed to divert the people's agression towards sth defenceless, and to give them easy explanation for a failed crop planting or medical planning, for example.
-
-
-
-
- I will grant you a big S if you really do allow
- others their own thoughts and beliefs without trying
- to convince them they are doomed, If you do it defo
- puts you in the minority of religious types from my
- own experiances.
I am sorry for those "religious types". I suppose there are many of them trying to convince people to the "religion" using a mace.
-
-
-
- Now how about we agree to get back to something
- cool or meaningful about those airplanes, cus I feel
- the need for speed.
Now way brother, I must sit at work for 3 hours still writing a boring documentation to my code. So you will hear from me...

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 03:37 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
- This is the official Catholic view, and the
- possition of the most Protestant and Orthodox
- Churches as well AFAIK that the BIble is the literal
- word of God, written by people who acted upon direct
- divine inspiration and thus wrote it down _without
- errors_ .
-
- Thus someone arguing from the position of faith is
- allowed to use the literal meaning of the biblical
- words.
-
- The rest is freely allowed to dismiss it, of course.

Um.....what about the commitee that sat around and argued what to put into it? What about all the texts that didn't make it? Why did the Christians choose to use some of the texts that the Jews chose to not make "official"? Why are there different versions of the bible?

If it's the literal word of god, then it's really the literal word of god as chosen, and edited, by man. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 03:43 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
- Are you going to make a call to the
- <un>Holy Inquisition?

NOOOOBODY EXPECTS the Spanish Inquisition!

http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/paulfitz/spanish/tt2.jpg



Message Edited on 11/13/0302:49PM by BlitzPig_DDT

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 03:51 PM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
-
- Um.....what about the commitee that sat around and
- argued what to put into it?
The comitee decided which text were written under God's inspiration. The rejected ones were, according to the comitee, a man's work. The comitee decided also that it (the comitee) stood under a direct God's supervision (executed by the Pope) and thus was able to make this decision without any error.

Sorry friend, but this is how the Catholic Church works. You are free to dismiss the decision of the comitee, noone forces you to be catholic (...anymore...).

Nobody can force me to reject the comitee's work, either ;o)

This is how it can be described in the Catholic Church: you are catholic => you trust the Pope => you trust the comitee => you believe in the official Bible (Old, New Testament, Letters, Apocalypse) as a literal God's word and any other writing as a man's word.

The same holds for the Orthodox churches (the comitee was before the schisma).

I am not sure what about the Protestants.



Message Edited on 11/13/0303:56PM by HansKnappstick

Hawgdog
11-13-2003, 03:51 PM
Anti's http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame85.html
Pro's http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame37.html
and to my special friend http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame78.html

<center></script>When your video card goes to hell, tell 'em HawgDog sent it!
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Consulting:
If you're not a part of the solution, theres good money to be made in prolonging the problem

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 03:59 PM
...wow...
...a cold shower...
...shshshshsh...

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 04:00 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
- Sorry friend, but this is how the Catholic Church
- works. You are free to dismiss the decision of the
- comitee, noone forces you to be catholic
- (...anymore...).
-
- Nobody can force me to reject the comitee's work,
- either ;o)


IIRC, this was done VERY early on in Christianity's existance, and long before the pope position existed. It was done when a king or emporer - damn, too early and I'm drawing blanks here, sorry, commisioned several complete bibles to be printed.

When someone like that is paying, and for so many, you don't tell him it's not finished yet. Emergency sessions were formed and it was put together.

Also, IIRC, some of the aprocraphal texts have changed status before as well. So this idea that it is still somehow the true word of God just doesn't fly. Men would not need to argue and debate about it if it were and/or they were guided by him in this process, and, it certainly wouldn't change. I mean, a perfect being doesn't change his mind, right?

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 04:07 PM
I always wondered why a perfect, omniscient and omnipresent being would need to create imperfect beings and just to say to them 'follow my rules or burn in hell'.

That would apply to any creation myth.




http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_07.gif


She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 04:09 PM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
- IIRC, this was done VERY early on in Christianity's
- existance, and long before the pope position
- existed. It was done when a king or emporer - damn,
- too early and I'm drawing blanks here, sorry,
- commisioned several complete bibles to be printed.
...? The Pope's position exists since Peter moved to Rome... Before that there was no printing - it appeared some 1500 years after...
-
-- Also, IIRC, some of the aprocraphal texts have
- changed status before as well. So this idea that it
- is still somehow the true word of God just doesn't
- fly. Men would not need to argue and debate about it
- if it were and/or they were guided by him in this
- process, and, it certainly wouldn't change. I mean,
- a perfect being doesn't change his mind, right?
-
Exactly, once it was approved by the Pope it achieved its Holy status - Roma locuta causa finita
-

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 04:16 PM
bazzaah2 wrote:
- I always wondered why a perfect, omniscient and
- omnipresent being would need to create imperfect
- beings and just to say to them 'follow my rules or
- burn in hell'.
-
- That would apply to any creation myth.
-
Ask a Jesuit - they are paid for that and they are good at that.

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 04:46 PM
Define perfect being. Show me perfection in anything.

<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 05:02 PM
http://www.triviatribute.com/images4/williamshatner3b.jpg

Surely?






<HR>
<center>http://www.misterwright.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/brockyaksig.jpg
<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#CCCCCC">Me on my hols in Russia</FONT></center>

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 05:03 PM
bazzaah2 wrote:
- I always wondered why a perfect, omniscient and
- omnipresent being would need to create imperfect
- beings and just to say to them 'follow my rules or
- burn in hell'.
-
- That would apply to any creation myth.
-

I always wondered why a perfect, omniscient, and omnipreset GOVERNMENT would need to create imperfect citizens and just say to them 'follow my rules or go to jail'.

I always wondered why a perfect, omniscient, and omnipreset COUPLE would need to create imperfect CHILDREN and just say to them 'follow my rules or get out of my house'.

Again, define perfect. Show me something perfect. Anything.

We again fall back to the real problem: words and interpretations.

Religion doesn't kill people, people kill people.

<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 06:22 PM
Religion doesn't kill people, people kill people....

People kill people in the name of Religion... prove that wrong....

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 06:34 PM
People kill...

in the name of love.
in the name of democracy.
in the name of the environment.
in the name of human rights.
in the name of animal rights.
in the name of liberty.
in the name of freedom.
etc etc etc



<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 06:38 PM
Sounds like a U2 song....

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 06:41 PM
in the name of love. millions of them ?
in the name of democracy. Yes
in the name of the environment. a few
in the name of human rights. millions
in the name of animal rights. thay should kill them (not anmals ...people)
in the name of liberty. yes
in the name of freedom. yes

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 07:00 PM
weed, if you believe that people should be killed, what exactly is your point?

I fail to understand how you can say murderous things, and then point fingers at religion.

Know thy enemy. Pick up the bible and start reading, not that I expect it will do you any good, because I really don't think your mind is capable of realizing the symbolism that the bible portrays. Instead, you would be better suited in a church, having interpretations spoon-fed to you for a small weekly fee. I'm sure everyone here would agree: having you NOT say such things, while being 'brainwashed' by western religion would be 1 million times better than the version of you we have now.



<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 07:48 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
- People kill...
-
- in the name of love.

Yet this is considered unacceptable. I always found it strange. It's not exactly abberant human behavior


- in the name of democracy.

Unfortunately. But this is because modern press and the powers that be have convinced people that democracy is a good thing. It isn't. Democracies are bad. The Founders knew this. That is why this was never, and never supposed to be, a democracy. It's a Republic. There is a difference. Yet, the same groups that twisted "democracy" also twisted "rebulic" into meaning something bad.

Not preaching at you Baldie, it was just a hot button. lol


- in the name of the environment.

Not nearly enough. More like "people kill the environment" to be honest.


- in the name of human rights.

Only when it suits them,


- in the name of animal rights.

In all the wrong ways and all the wrong times unfortunately. Part of the environmental thing as well.


- in the name of liberty.
- in the name of freedom.

Yes, in "name". Not much more. We pay a great lip service to these things and in the same breath put up cameras to spy in the public, undermine the Constitution, and debate instituting national ID cards and removing restrictions placed on the gov't for spying on citizens. Go figure.



BTW, the "perfect being" comment - I have yet to find any description off god that suggests he is anything other than perfect. This would be another inconsistency in that religion really, but, I was just going on the descriptions - from memory, I can't quote any of them for you unfortunately.

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 08:08 PM
You misinterpet what I ment....
I was asking has love killed millions ..I dont think so..
But those that would force you to love god will kill you in a hartbeat if you refuse.....
Look at the KKK thay have killed thousands in the name of your God ..I want no part of that god ...
All thru recorded history its been that way under differnt flags or symbols or so called god fearing church goers...

As for animals Id rather see a billion people go than another species wiped out for good......wiped out because of mans greed..

There is no shortage of man...Do you doubt that ?

And I really don't care what some faceless nickname using
flight simmers think of me....

And I have browsed thru the bible a few times and
frankly its no differnt than the tora or the koran...
Just a bunch of mumbo jumbo .....

And if I were to chose a religion it would be Jewish..
I understand thay dont beleve there is a hell..

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 08:51 PM
J18_Weed wrote:
- in the name of animal rights. thay should kill them
- (not anmals ...people)


Explain my misinterpretaion. Please.

<font face="Courier New">

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_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 08:52 PM
J18_Weed wrote:
- And I have browsed thru the bible a few times and
- frankly its no differnt than the tora or the
- koran...

It is quite different. Regardless on what level. Making an unqualified statement such as that indicates you are either lying, or didn't understand what you read.

They are similar, but, quite different at the same time.


- And if I were to chose a religion it would be
- Jewish..
-
- I understand thay dont beleve there is a hell..

IMHO, I think that of the "big 3" they are closest to the mark. Just my view of it though.

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 09:34 PM
Were did I say I wanted to kill anyone ?
But If a billion droped dead today Id lose no sleep over it..



DDT wrote

"It is quite different. Regardless on what level. Making an unqualified statement such as that indicates you are either lying, or didn't understand what you read."



the book of Islam, the book of Judaism and Christianity are books of total fiction, they are Arabian Night Stories, they contain too many errors, they neither are nor can they ever be the word of your God. A Word Of God cannot be expected to have so many errors and so may contradictions.....

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 09:40 PM
J18_Weed wrote:
- the book of Islam, the book of Judaism and
- Christianity are books of total fiction, they are
- Arabian Night Stories, they contain too many
- errors, they neither are nor can they ever be the
- word of your God. A Word Of God cannot be expected
- to have so many errors and so may
- contradictions.....

Irrelevant.

Neuromancer and Hardwired are both books of fiction, and even have many similarities, but, to say they are "no different" shows a lack of understanding, or lack of actual reading.

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 09:45 PM
Neuromancer and Hardwired are at least enteraining...

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 09:57 PM
Tagrat stop with the PMs you ask me to stop I did...
dont bother sending anymore as I dont read it just delete it.....Iv heard all your my mother is this and that insults and thay are getting old....As I said get ICQ and bug someone that cares
how funny you think thay are....

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 09:58 PM
So.. you guys still havent realised that Weed is just saying anything to have something to say... in the hopes that people will reply back? To make his sound proff room a little less lonely?



<div style="width:700;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 10:04 PM
Let's just ignore him. To lower ourselves to his level - it would be wasting the time.

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 10:08 PM
Save it tagrat you just keep saying the same thing over and over....If you dont like it do something about it otherwise your pi$$ing in the wind....

I told you you won the pi$$ing contest with the PMs
and that Id respond to no more of them from you...
Yet you keep doing it ...
So whats your point now ? You don't like me ?
Whhhnee whhaaa crybaby....Im crushed shattered even...
Tagrat the real mans man dont like me booohooo....

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 10:10 PM
J18_Weed wrote:
- Were did I say I wanted to kill anyone ?

You didn't. Instead, you mispelled "they" and wrote "thay".


- But If a billion droped dead today Id lose no
- sleep over it..

How about if one of those billion was your mother?
I wonder how many other people read this line and though "yeah, cause the dead don't sleep".

- DDT wrote
-
-
- "It is quite different. Regardless on what level.
- Making an unqualified statement such as that
- indicates you are either lying, or didn't understand
- what you read."
-
-
- the book of Islam, the book of Judaism and
- Christianity are books of total fiction, they are
- Arabian Night Stories, they contain too many
- errors, they neither are nor can they ever be the
- word of your God. A Word Of God cannot be expected
- to have so many errors and so may
- contradictions.....
-

Prove they are fiction.
Prove that God is perfect.


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XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 10:11 PM
Handsonsack wrote:
Let's just ignore him. To lower ourselves to his
level - it would be wasting the time.


There ya go .....

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 10:19 PM
Prove they are fiction.
Prove that God is perfect.


I can"t ...nor can you prove that thay even exist...
Prove it !! prove that thay other than in your mind exist...
Everyone thought the world was round untill proven wrong.
Come up with that kind of proof and you will have made a belever out of me..

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 10:20 PM
J18_Weed wrote:
- Prove they are fiction.
- Prove that God is perfect.
-
-
- I can"t ...nor can you prove that thay even exist...
- Prove it !! prove that thay other than in your mind
- exist...
-
- Everyone thought the (err flat i mean ) untill proven
- wrong.
-
- Come up with that kind of proof and you will have
- made a belever out of me..
-
-

XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 11:02 PM
J18_Weed wrote:
- J18_Weed wrote:
-- Prove they are fiction.
-- Prove that God is perfect.
--
--
-- I can"t ...nor can you prove that thay even exist...
-- Prove it !! prove that thay other than in your mind
-- exist...
--
-- Everyone thought the (err flat i mean ) untill proven
-- wrong.
--
-- Come up with that kind of proof and you will have
-- made a belever out of me..
--

Noone discusses nothingness. Not only does God exist, but your God-bashing could only exist if you held some sort of animosity against him. Indeference would be the only response from a true non-believer.

By joining this discussion, you are incriminating yourself as a closet-believer since there is no such thing as a discussion of void.

I think, therefore I am.
You don't think, therefore you are not.

See you in church sunday? I'm not in the habbit, but I wouldn't miss it for anything.

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XyZspineZyX
11-13-2003, 11:23 PM
Noone discusses nothingness. Not only does God exist, but your God-bashing could only exist if you held some sort of animosity against him.

hahahahahahhaha yha ok....



"By joining this discussion, you are incriminating
yourself as a closet-believer since there is no such
thing as a discussion of void."

Squints at monitor and says in Tim Allin voice huhwaaaa.

So that would make all the other doubters and down right non believers full of it also....

Nope I stand by what I say ....You believe what you want...
I look at it this way ..If you believe in something strong enough its true..

Other than replacing a circuit breaker
at a yokel church I have never set foot in one...

XyZspineZyX
11-14-2003, 01:13 AM
BaldieJr wrote:
- Noone discusses nothingness.

Physicists do. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Sorry, just having fun. Maybe we can derail this away from him. It was so good before he showed up.


- Not only does God exist,but your God-bashing could only
- exist if you held some sort of animosity against him.
- Indeference would be the only response from a true non-
- believer.

Good point of logic about indiference, but, we are no closer to proof of existence. Part of the problem though is that we have not nailed down the definition first, so we are dealing with a potentially moving target.

Just sayin'. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


- By joining this discussion, you are incriminating
- yourself as a closet-believer since there is no such
- thing as a discussion of void.

Technically.........a vacuum is "nothing", and got many people in trouble with the church for awhile. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Ok, sorry, was just overcome with the urge to play devil's advocate. This has nothing to do with that other guy.


- I think, therefore I am.
- You don't think, therefore you are not.

I'm not sure, therefore I maybe. lol


- I'm not in the habbit,

Being a male I should hope not! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-14-2003, 01:25 AM
My God! 8 pages?? This post has broken the record!

XyZspineZyX
11-14-2003, 01:25 AM
there is much to recommend the Bible and the Qoran even if 'the God was bored so he created man and effed him up with original sin' stories in the former are just, well, difficult to believe.

You just don't need God to credit the moral value of either text.

But, somehow, both are more than works of fiction and retain a moral value, something that adherents to either faith would do well to recognise.



http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_07.gif


She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

XyZspineZyX
11-14-2003, 01:31 AM
Maybe we can derail this away from him.


Had you not made that remark you might have.. now Ill just stick around ....

XyZspineZyX
11-14-2003, 01:41 AM
This is not a PM session this is a public BB .....
Or did you forget that....Dont like what I say dont respond to it..
You post your thoughts on the subject Ill post mine ...
Maby you should go away ....

Hunter82
11-14-2003, 01:46 AM
I'll post mine....continue the thread on another non ubi board...may I suggest CWoS?

Please don't open another thread about this....it will surely get people banned

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