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Armuun_74
07-04-2019, 03:27 PM
I was wondering,if the devs were planning on any kinda rework for the HL. Or are you going to lay him down by the wayside? just asking

AmonDarkGod
07-04-2019, 03:43 PM
HL may use a rework I just got light spammed to death by a Higlander XD those 400 ms 10 damage lights cant be quite annoying. But Raider needs the rework and damage nerf the most atmt. But sadly this game is slowly dying there is only 2k player base left due to Raider being too broken and servers being horrible and the poor matchmaking latency issues and etc

FlyinBeef
07-04-2019, 03:45 PM
Wrong place for asking devs. No, they weren't planning rework for HL, obviously because he is far from trash and there are many heroes (about 8-10) who deserves attention first.

The_B0G_
07-04-2019, 03:50 PM
HL may use a rework I just got light spammed to death by a Higlander XD those 400 ms 10 damage lights cant be quite annoying. But Raider needs the rework and damage nerf the most atmt. But sadly this game is slowly dying there is only 2k player base left due to Raider being too broken and servers being horrible and the poor matchmaking latency issues and etc

Neutal offensive lights cost a ton of stamina to use, unless you were ganking and he popped revenge, it's unlikely you would be killed by nothing but his lights, his defensive lights are parried constantly when I use him.

The_B0G_
07-04-2019, 03:51 PM
Wrong place for asking devs. No, they weren't planning rework for HL, obviously because he is far from trash and there are many heroes (about 8-10) who deserves attention first.

Agreed, I have him at rep 25, and would really like a rework, but he's not even in the top 5 who need a rework the most.

EvoX.
07-04-2019, 04:13 PM
Highlander doesn't need anything other than 500ms lights. Once escape is nerfed, making us unable to unlock-roll his Kick/Grab, he'll basically be getting a massive buff.

Baggin_
07-04-2019, 07:16 PM
Highlander doesn't need anything other than 500ms lights. Once escape is nerfed, making us unable to unlock-roll his Kick/Grab, he'll basically be getting a massive buff.

He needs his offensive stance to actually be offensive and not defensive.

EvoX.
07-04-2019, 08:25 PM
He needs his offensive stance to actually be offensive and not defensive.

Waste of resources. He is, or at least will be, more than fine.

GoldenSandstorm
07-04-2019, 09:51 PM
not gonna lie shinobi needs a hard rework

UbiInsulin
07-05-2019, 07:59 PM
I don't think we've said much about HL in particular. I'd be happy to look at this thread for suggestions, though.

Knight_Raime
07-05-2019, 08:40 PM
Aside from some tech he's capable of doing and how safe his charge heavy option select is there really isn't much wrong with him. You can say that he's more of a turtle in OF which seems contradictory. Or that he's entirely match up dependent. But both things are flaws that can't be fixed without a major overhaul to his kit. Which I don't see the devs ever doing with any hero ever let alone one that has two whole stances to work with.

Siegfried-Z
07-06-2019, 08:30 AM
HL gonna get a natural massive buff sooner or later when :
1/ his defensive lights gonna be standardized at 500ms (easier access to bash/400ms/UB mix up)
2/ unlock roll gonna be fix (kick/grab isnt always rolled for nothing, this mix up is pretty scary).

At this moment he would even need a slight nerf Imo.
Something i would like is to remoove his ability to Dodge into kick in OF. It would be this necessary slight nerf and would fix his OF turtle problem because he would be too vulnerable in OF if he doesnt immediatly use his mix up. It means he would be very powerfull in OF but only if he is attacking, which should be the case while using a stance labelled OF..

But anyway atm many heroes need love more than HL.

The next 4 rework are probably going to be : Cent and Glad because of how weak they are and never get love before (sorry pk/wl).

Nobu and Shinobi because they need their defense to be reduced and their offense to be better.

I put my Money on Cent, Nobu and Shinobi for the next season.

garr1999
07-06-2019, 08:42 AM
didn't the devs say something about
nerfing his recovery time on his offensive dodges
around next season
it's gonna be a huge buff but also a nerf
for the claymore wielding big boy

Armuun_74
07-06-2019, 03:53 PM
I don't think we've said much about HL in particular. I'd be happy to look at this thread for suggestions, though.

Ok here are some things that have been posted that im sure was NEVER looked at or Skimmed over

.He is one of the slowest (heavy, lights and running).

.Yeah he still has high damage but not that amazing seeing as most characters now have 40dmg heavies while being faster.

.He can get gb'ed very late into his heavies (including dash heavy)

.Because of the 100ms delay is very hard to cc light attacks unless you predict it perfectly

.His feints are very late into his heavy animations leaving him very susceptible to unblockable spam (which happens a lot)

. It kicks in way too late to be used for trading.

.His celtic curse is useless against even average defenders

.very matchup dependent.

.doesn't help when your attack takes forever to land

.after one kick/throw mixup followed by the free heavy, you basically have to back off because you have no stamina left, resetting the fight and losing the pressure and initiative.

.We're in the speed/spam baby meta, any slow characters without good HA are useless.

. highlanders kit is very outdated now compared to the new meta and characters

.Parry punish is VERY limited

I'm sure there literally a ton more things i could put down.I'll more than likely think of them later. I've been with this game since day 1.Id like to see some tweaks on this character if not the whole kit might need a total overhaul.
.

Armuun_74
07-07-2019, 04:37 PM
Nothing,not even a response from UbiInsulin? Will this be another post throw away by the wayside? Or is it that this wont get a response cause the HL isnt one of the new and shiny classes that ubi dosentl consider to be meta? or is it cause they aint one of the new speedy span baby classes?

UbiInsulin
07-07-2019, 06:52 PM
Nothing,not even a response from UbiInsulin? Will this be another post throw away by the wayside? Or is it that this wont get a response cause the HL isnt one of the new and shiny classes that ubi dosentl consider to be meta? or is it cause they aint one of the new speedy span baby classes?

Not quite sure what you mean. I already said I'd be happy to monitor this thread for your thoughts.

Armuun_74
07-07-2019, 07:27 PM
Not quite sure what you mean. I already said I'd be happy to monitor this thread for your thoughts.

Ok fair enough.I i guess what im trying to say is, will it be just looked at then ignored,or will some, just some be passed on to the dev team for some possible tweak? Im not asking for the over buffed raider BS but something would be nice. I'd be satisfied if you would have posted that some of these things have been submitted. Maybe im asking too much for a class that has been underwhelming from the start.

Hormly
07-07-2019, 09:02 PM
My fullblock is still useless and you're complaining about the highlander

Armuun_74
07-07-2019, 09:44 PM
This post wasn't about your main hero,so plz dont be rude.

The_B0G_
07-08-2019, 12:01 PM
Yeah Hormly, not everything is about you!!

Dunmaglass_
07-08-2019, 04:14 PM
Ok here are some things that have been posted that im sure was NEVER looked at or Skimmed over

.He is one of the slowest (heavy, lights and running).

.Yeah he still has high damage but not that amazing seeing as most characters now have 40dmg heavies while being faster.

.He can get gb'ed very late into his heavies (including dash heavy)

.Because of the 100ms delay is very hard to cc light attacks unless you predict it perfectly

.His feints are very late into his heavy animations leaving him very susceptible to unblockable spam (which happens a lot)

. It kicks in way too late to be used for trading.

.His celtic curse is useless against even average defenders

.very matchup dependent.

.doesn't help when your attack takes forever to land

.after one kick/throw mixup followed by the free heavy, you basically have to back off because you have no stamina left, resetting the fight and losing the pressure and initiative.

.We're in the speed/spam baby meta, any slow characters without good HA are useless.

. highlanders kit is very outdated now compared to the new meta and characters

.Parry punish is VERY limited

I'm sure there literally a ton more things i could put down.I'll more than likely think of them later. I've been with this game since day 1.Id like to see some tweaks on this character if not the whole kit might need a total overhaul.
.

As Highlander rep 70, I can only agree with that. I would also add that he does not have much HP for all the risks he takes, 125 HP is the health of an assassin and the Highlander is somehow a tank. Maybe 135 or 140 HP would be fine?

Armuun_74
07-08-2019, 11:20 PM
Anyone else?

CKD-Guly
07-09-2019, 08:51 PM
I cannot say much about HL because i've only clocked like 20-30 hours with him. I can only say that I find myself having a harder time winning when playing him because I find myself getting punished very hard by any mistakes I make (Unlike Kensei per example) but I also can scare opponents very quickly when I land per example two 40 dmg heavies consecutively so matches tend to end up in two ways : A) I usually either end up getting destroyed without being able to do much about it or B) I deliver a quick and massive beatdown and taste my opponent's salty tears.

I would not like a complete overhaul for HL as I find his playstyle to be very fun. The sensation I got from playing this character was that the devs' intentions was to create an overall slow character and balance him with options, quick-thinking, and having the player figure out that the best way to win with him is to use the fewest moves possible and make each one of them count.

Again, I don't claim to be experienced with him since I've barely reached rep 1, but I would suggest making his animations and movement ever so slightly quicker (like a 5-10% buff) and making all of his options more viable (less stamina cost on some moves?, able to use zone after a parry for 1vx situations?).

TL;DR: I feel like either I get the jackpot when playing him or I don't get anything at all. Balancing should focus on reaching that middle point so that playing him feel consistently rewarding and not tiresome.

Cheers

Armuun_74
07-11-2019, 12:44 AM
Some good points have been posted here.I only ask the devs at least respond in some way to let us HL'ers concerns have been heard.

Armuun_74
07-12-2019, 09:40 PM
Would anyone else like to weigh in?

Armuun_74
07-18-2019, 10:39 PM
Alot of things have been posted here,and havent even gotten a response from UbiInsulin ,or any other officals from Ubi. I would have liked to have read that some of the things that have been posted were passed along to the devs for some tweaks,if nothing else. Crickets is all im hearing ATM. Am I too premature to say that HL'ers are now going to ignored and never getting a rework of any kind? Its starting to look like it. One can hope.Maybe thats all I have right now.Is hope

Goat_of_Vermund
07-19-2019, 07:49 AM
Fights against highlander can go two ways: he gets you in his os, and you most likely die, or you find a way to keep him in ds, in which case, it's almost a guaranteed win.
His "inside the box" skills are quite weak, his normal attacks and abilities make him weak, while he has some "outside the box" skills, which make him ignore some mechanics totally. If he is forced to fight by the default rules of For Honor, he is about as threatening as a bit more worked out Breach officer, but if he can ignore them, he probably wins. I think both should be addressed.

My idea:

Nerfs:

1. After an os dodge, he gets normal recovery.

2. Missed kick has the same recovery as missed level 1 shoulderbash. Some risk should be taken for 40 damage (he might already has though, in which case, it shouldn't be touched, I rarely get that gb though).

Buffs:

1. 500ms ds lights.
2. Os lights stamina cost reduced to half.
3. Celtic curse feintable even after direction change.
4. Offensive stance gets a reflex guard that decays in 400ms (shorter than current glad).
5. Offensive lights have a superior block property on the startup. They become unblockable and deal 20 damage if they counter something.

AmonDarkGod
07-19-2019, 08:42 AM
Fights against highlander can go two ways: he gets you in his os, and you most likely die, or you find a way to keep him in ds, in which case, it's almost a guaranteed win.
His "inside the box" skills are quite weak, his normal attacks and abilities make him weak, while he has some "outside the box" skills, which make him ignore some mechanics totally. If he is forced to fight by the default rules of For Honor, he is about as threatening as a bit more worked out Breach officer, but if he can ignore them, he probably wins. I think both should be addressed.

My idea:

Nerfs:

1. After an os dodge, he gets normal recovery.

2. Missed kick has the same recovery as missed level 1 shoulderbash. Some risk should be taken for 40 damage (he might already has though, in which case, it shouldn't be touched, I rarely get that gb though).

Buffs:

1. 500ms ds lights.
2. Os lights stamina cost reduced to half.
3. Celtic curse feintable even after direction change.
4. Offensive stance gets a reflex guard that decays in 400ms (shorter than current glad).
5. Offensive lights have a superior block property on the startup. They become unblockable and deal 20 damage if they counter something.

Highlander's caber toss should not track that much all u can do is dodgeroll to avoid it and that will be removed soon making ppl spam caber toss non stop and if u cant light attack instantly u eat 40 damage its way too safe. At least in my opinion

littlefluffyegg
07-19-2019, 09:19 AM
Highlander's caber toss should not track that much all u can do is dodgeroll to avoid it and that will be removed soon making ppl spam caber toss non stop and if u cant light attack instantly u eat 40 damage its way too safe. At least in my opinion

The only good point of caber toss is that it tracks people that dodge badly or do not roll,what is the point of that it gets beaten on every single dodge?
Spamming caber toss doesn't work,my guy.

AmonDarkGod
07-19-2019, 09:35 AM
The only good point of caber toss is that it tracks people that dodge badly or do not roll,what is the point of that it gets beaten on every single dodge?
Spamming caber toss doesn't work,my guy.

A Highlander can always kick feint into caber toss the entire duel and parry all your light attempts. If all he does his caber toss then that is spamming my guy, or girl...

Goat_of_Vermund
07-19-2019, 09:39 AM
I dodged that plenty of times if I waited for the softfeint. I never ever rolled that mixup, it is beatable with the correct guess. And it's recovery is poor, you get even an oos gb. And that move is not softfeintable, it is always committed. The kick is the unfair one, very short recovery with softfeint option.

AmonDarkGod
07-19-2019, 09:48 AM
I always found the kick to be easy to dodge lol and caber toss near impossible XD

Goat_of_Vermund
07-19-2019, 10:42 AM
I can dodge that too, but that is the one with the softfeint, plus the only punish is a dodge attack.

littlefluffyegg
07-19-2019, 11:15 AM
I always found the kick to be easy to dodge lol and caber toss near impossible XD

Kick caber toss mixup is not meant to be dodged on reaction,it's meant to be read based.It would be absolutely garbage if it was dodged on reaction.

AmonDarkGod
07-19-2019, 11:50 AM
Thats why I dont try to dodge caber toss lol I just light attack him out of it if not dodge roll

CanadianSoupMan
07-19-2019, 08:17 PM
Fights against highlander can go two ways: he gets you in his os, and you most likely die, or you find a way to keep him in ds, in which case, it's almost a guaranteed win.
His "inside the box" skills are quite weak, his normal attacks and abilities make him weak, while he has some "outside the box" skills, which make him ignore some mechanics totally. If he is forced to fight by the default rules of For Honor, he is about as threatening as a bit more worked out Breach officer, but if he can ignore them, he probably wins. I think both should be addressed.

My idea:

Nerfs:

1. After an os dodge, he gets normal recovery.

2. Missed kick has the same recovery as missed level 1 shoulderbash. Some risk should be taken for 40 damage (he might already has though, in which case, it shouldn't be touched, I rarely get that gb though).

Buffs:

1. 500ms ds lights.
2. Os lights stamina cost reduced to half.
3. Celtic curse feintable even after direction change.
4. Offensive stance gets a reflex guard that decays in 400ms (shorter than current glad).
5. Offensive lights have a superior block property on the startup. They become unblockable and deal 20 damage if they counter something.

Nerfs:

1. I agree he recovers T00 fast.
2. I don't think that is good idea, the kick promises 45 damage where the basic shoulder bash only gives warden like 20-30damage. Unless you meant a fully charged shoulder bash. That wouldn't be level 1, we count upwards here on earth

Buffs:

1. Yes but they should lose their counter crush property
2. He should not get half cost on lights so
3. We would end up with an attack that is basically 15/15/15/15/15/15 and people are already complaining about raiders 33/33/33
4. No. If he gets cc out of oofstance then he absolutely should not get a block unless they removed his dodge or don't move the cc
5. I think his counter crush should be moved to his oofstance. The counter crush should be like shoalins where almost anything from the direction is cc unless it comes super late where you would end up trading.

Goat_of_Vermund
07-19-2019, 08:59 PM
Nerfs:

2. Only 40 damage. And dodging a level 1 shoulderbash (not a level 3, a level 1) is a free guardbreak all the time. That is enough, I don't think the kick should have a longer recovery, the cabertoss has a longenough one. The kick would be the safer pressure on oos opponents. Slower recovery also means you can't try it more than once or twice against exhausted opponents (which statistically means that he gets probably 40 damage in with this mixup). I am also familiar with how counting works, we here had is well before you earthians came down from your trees.

Buffs:

1. Maybe, if he gets the other buffs, he might not need them, but I am unsure about this. Others have this on their own 500ms lights.
2. I think it takes too much stamina, but it is also 400ms, so seems fair to cost that much. Still better than a pk zone in that regard.
3. The current celtic curse is useless, there are various optionselects that beat it all the time, and if you are actually familiar with how it works, parrying either version is not that difficult either. It is not a 50/50 (or whatever the chance is), you can safely block it all the time, for taking 5 block damage. Raider is quite different in that, his version includes faster than 400ms light softfeints, guardbreak softfeints and unblockables. The OS mixup might be a fair comparsion, this is more similar to kensei's top heavy opener mixup (which is well... we all know how effective it is).
4/5. I forgot about shaolin's similar properties. Since hel can move and this stance wasn't designed to sit around in it, your point about reflexguard is valid. However, in that case, I would raise the counterlight's damage to 25.

CanadianSoupMan
07-19-2019, 09:14 PM
Nerfs:

2. Only 40 damage. And dodging a level 1 shoulderbash (not a level 3, a level 1) is a free guardbreak all the time. That is enough, I don't think the kick should have a longer recovery, the cabertoss has a longenough one. The kick would be the safer pressure on oos opponents. Slower recovery also means you can't try it more than once or twice against exhausted opponents (which statistically means that he gets probably 40 damage in with this mixup). I am also familiar with how counting works, we here had is well before you earthians came down from your trees.

Buffs:

1. Maybe, if he gets the other buffs, he might not need them, but I am unsure about this. Others have this on their own 500ms lights.
2. I think it takes too much stamina, but it is also 400ms, so seems fair to cost that much. Still better than a pk zone in that regard.
3. The current celtic curse is useless, there are various optionselects that beat it all the time, and if you are actually familiar with how it works, parrying either version is not that difficult either. It is not a 50/50 (or whatever the chance is), you can safely block it all the time, for taking 5 block damage. Raider is quite different in that, his version includes faster than 400ms light softfeints, guardbreak softfeints and unblockables. The OS mixup might be a fair comparsion, this is more similar to kensei's top heavy opener mixup (which is well... we all know how effective it is).
4/5. I forgot about shaolin's similar properties. Since hel can move and this stance wasn't designed to sit around in it, your point about reflexguard is valid. However, in that case, I would raise the counterlight's damage to 25.

Yeah I agree overall.

But the Celtic curse can be a kick, enter to oofstance, an attack, or a gb if feinted. But the gb isn't soft so I guess it is only a 50/50 and that doesn't change from adding directional twirl feint.

Yes I was going to say it would be wack for Shaolin if highlander got a stance block and not Shaolin

Armuun_74
07-21-2019, 03:25 AM
Now that we have some good ideas,could we get an response from the devs?

Goat_of_Vermund
07-21-2019, 05:14 AM
I think UbiInsulin is monitoring the thread and forwards the feedback, he can't write much more here, maybe some personal opinion as a player, but not much more. If I am not wrong, he already visited the thread.

AmonDarkGod
07-21-2019, 07:31 AM
I think UbiInsulin is monitoring the thread and forwards the feedback, he can't write much more here, maybe some personal opinion as a player, but not much more. If I am not wrong, he already visited the thread.

As much as I like to think there will be no HL rework the devs said they will rework old heroes first and they still havent fixed Raider after months.... Its unbeliavable
e

Goat_of_Vermund
07-21-2019, 07:58 AM
Highlander is pretty old himself, and most of the originals had reworks (a ****one in half the cases). The most problems are with the 6 dlc y1 heroes, from them, only shaman is working the intended way. As much as I hated her initially, she is probably the only hero who was right from the start.