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View Full Version : LB's kit still needs more.



TheUberDome
06-22-2019, 04:15 PM
You want the game to move in a more offence oriented playstyle, yet you cling to old identities of heroes which isn't healthy for the game. Every post regarding LB's rework asked for his offence to be improved, and whilst the changes made are good, it's still not enough. His attacks drain way too much stamina, and there is no mixup from his first light attack. All his heavies are so slow, do so little damage and can be interrupted so easily that they aren't worth throwing out. Yet raider on the other hand has hyperarmour heavies with softfeints and high damage. And I know the justification for LB's offence being so poor is because he has high damage parries, but 10 extra damage isn't really a good trade for soft feints and hyperarmour.

What I would like to be changed:
The GB vulnerability of his heavies. Right now you can try and parry an attack, and the person has time to feint that attack and GB you before the GB vulnerability ends. Now I get that if you feint the heavy then you should be punished, but you shouldn't be punished for reading the opponent and letting the heavy fly, and getting GB'ed anyway.

Stamina cost for attacks. This should really be applied to all heroes, but if you want the game to be more offensive, give players more stamina. Freeze has made an excellent video on this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvlWyfaKuJ4&t=228s

Chain after first light. Either give him the option to shove after a light, or give him a light light heavy/ combo. I think the first option is better.

Stephan mentioned that the end goal of LB was to get to his unblockable, but there isn't really any incentive to use it like raider's zone. Having the unblockable be able to soft feint into a GB, or a shove, would really help with his offence, and give players a way to keep pressure on an opponent with LB, because they could mixup the UB into a shove, which leads to a light and another unblockable.

This final suggestion would take quite a lot of work, but I think it would be a good change without ruining his identity. Give him a chargeable shove, similar to what warden has, and let him get a heavy from landing the charged shove. We already know that LB can get a heavy after a shove, he can throw a heavy after a shove, so why not make use of that?

Please feel free to comment on any suggestions you would want for LB.

Star.Princess
06-22-2019, 04:46 PM
The GB vulnerability of his heavies. Right now you can try and parry an attack, and the person has time to feint that attack and GB you before the GB vulnerability ends. Now I get that if you feint the heavy then you should be punished, but you shouldn't be punished for reading the opponent and letting the heavy fly, and getting GB'ed anyway.
It is ok, he is already have strong defence playstyle, there is no need to make it powerfulier. Also, I thought you want to improve LB's offence, but did you think about other characters? What they will feel against 150HP guy with biggest punishes and Aramusha-like heavies? I think heavies with gb vulnerability is most healthy for this game, you parry - you get punish if attack was feinted, that is how it should work.


Either give him the option to shove after a light, or give him a light light heavy/ combo.
I agree with such idea, but with such buff I would increase recovery on all chain bashes and would make them punishable for dodge-attack. Light+light+heavy and light+light+light chains will be cool too. Also I would give him increased tracking on 2nd chain heavy to let counter back dodges, or maybe soft-feint to gb from all heavies, it will also fix problem with unblockables or they need increased tracking too, or speed (top only). For such changes he need nerf as well. I would make neutral top light 500ms again with old range and with same block ignoring effect as on side light, also I would lower his parry punishes a bit, maybe HP.

The_B0G_
06-22-2019, 05:12 PM
It is ok, he is already have strong defence playstyle, there is no need to make it powerfulier. Also, I thought you want to improve LB's offence, but did you think about other characters? What they will feel against 150HP guy with biggest punishes and Aramusha-like heavies? I think heavies with gb vulnerability is most healthy for this game, you parry - you get punish if attack was feinted, that is how it should work.


I agree with such idea, but with such buff I would increase recovery on all chain bashes and would make them punishable for dodge-attack. Light+light+heavy and light+light+light chains will be cool too. Also I would give him increased tracking on 2nd chain heavy to let counter back dodges, or maybe soft-feint to gb from all heavies, it will also fix problem with unblockables or they need increased tracking too, or speed (top only). For such changes he need nerf as well. I would make neutral top light 500ms again with old range and with same block ignoring effect as on side light, also I would lower his parry punishes a bit, maybe HP.

His heavy's are no where close to Aramusha's.

Illyrian_King
06-22-2019, 06:39 PM
There have been so many discussion on why he is trash ;b

Buff him for heck's sake

Sneakly20
06-22-2019, 07:45 PM
Lawbringer is much better than he was before. Everyone wants him to have a better initiation random other buffs. But what other buffs would you give him? Iím asking this question because going on the offensive against him is very risky. If he reacts to a light then you lose 50 health for one light attack. Heavy attacks vary.

He has a delay on his mid chain shove that is not very punishable. Moving this closer to attack would make him closer to black prior mid chain bash which is also very safe.

To the OP:
Stamina is a known problem so I will stick with you there.

GB vulnerability is something I do think can help him out.

Shove after light is possible. Maybe side lights only, top light is already good at interrupting several offensive moves. I believe in the warriors den they said they wanted to avoid light to light combos.

The unblockable heavy finisher on the sides are good , but for the sake of your post mid attack bash will probably get dodged more often that not. And there tends to be a timing where the heavy and the shove gets dodged at the same time. The reason we donít really need that is because without spacing dodging lawbro finisher heavies isnít an option to avoid damage.

If I remember correctly if you dodge the heavy then he can bash you for damage. Soft feint GB may work but thatís something that has to implemented to see.

Siegfried-Z
06-22-2019, 07:46 PM
LB trash ?
Say that to PK, Warlord, Valk, Roch, Kensei. All are from the OG roaster and are weaker than LB despite they all had a rework or balancing pass.
Even 2 times for PK.

What about these poor DLC heroes desesperatly waiting for some love as Cent, Glad, Nuxia or Musha ?
What about HL or Nobu still having to deal with 600ms lights.

Yes LB isnt S tier. But Trash ? No, no.

He is in a good spot.

Star.Princess
06-22-2019, 10:03 PM
His heavy's are no where close to Aramusha's.
Do not pull phrases out of context, I never said that, I said he will be like Aramusha if heavies will be invulnerable to gb if not feinted, not now, read the quote.

Star.Princess
06-22-2019, 10:11 PM
There have been so many discussion on why he is trash ;b

Buff him for heck's sake
You are biased, he isn't balanced in terms of moveset, maybe too turtly, maybe with lack of strong offence, but overall he is strong, I don't know why you don't see it.
I agree wtih Siegfried-Z, if he is trash then who is Orochi, Valkyria, Kensei, Gladiator, Centurion? Are LB even to them?

The_B0G_
06-23-2019, 10:38 AM
Do not pull phrases out of context, I never said that, I said he will be like Aramusha if heavies will be invulnerable to gb if not feinted, not now, read the quote.

"What they will feel against 150HP guy with biggest punishes and Aramusha-like heavies?"

I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to take that question, I know english must not be your first language, but sometimes it's hard to distinguish the point you're trying to make by the way you word things.

The_B0G_
06-23-2019, 10:39 AM
You are biased, he isn't balanced in terms of moveset, maybe too turtly, maybe with lack of strong offence, but overall he is strong, I don't know why you don't see it.
I agree wtih Siegfried-Z, if he is trash then who is Orochi, Valkyria, Kensei, Gladiator, Centurion? Are LB even to them?

I think Kensei and LB are pretty close as far as balance goes, the others are weaker though, true.

Illyrian_King
06-23-2019, 11:13 AM
You are biased, he isn't balanced in terms of moveset, maybe too turtly, maybe with lack of strong offence, but overall he is strong, I don't know why you don't see it.
I agree wtih Siegfried-Z, if he is trash then who is Orochi, Valkyria, Kensei, Gladiator, Centurion? Are LB even to them?

I know that these heroes are below LB, but that doesn't turn him into a good hero. The ones you called indeed need to get buffed, but LB too. I don't know if you watched the 3 streams at E3, where they just played the event mode for an hour ... there was a LB pro (DaddyLaw) and he basically got buttkicked combat-wise (not talking about objective win/lose). I think that was pretty eye opening and confirmative to what we are saying.

Okt0g00N
06-23-2019, 01:21 PM
I think what OP said was really great, he should get shove soft feints in order to put more pressure and that stupid idea with "150 hp dude being able to be valk" is stupid, their kits are no where near the same

Star.Princess
06-23-2019, 01:40 PM
I know that these heroes are below LB, but that doesn't turn him into a good hero. The ones you called indeed need to get buffed, but LB too. I don't know if you watched the 3 streams at E3, where they just played the event mode for an hour ... there was a LB pro (DaddyLaw) and he basically got buttkicked combat-wise (not talking about objective win/lose). I think that was pretty eye opening and confirmative to what we are saying.
If he isn't a good hero, then who is good hero? Who is above him? I think only S-Tier hero and arguably not even all. Shaman better than him? Nuxia? JJ better turtle? No, are they trashes too? In your logic they are. Stop divide characters into black and white, if character need buffs or moveset rebalance that doesn't mean he is trash. DaddyLaw isn't an argument for me, I have my own experience in 4v4 even custom high level games and 4v4 tier list, in 4v4 LB is quite strong, just tell me why not? He isn't good midder? He isn't ok teamfighter? He isn't strong ganker? He can't stand long in 1v2 situations?

Illyrian_King
06-23-2019, 03:36 PM
If he isn't a good hero, then who is good hero? Who is above him? I think only S-Tier hero and arguably not even all. Shaman better than him? Nuxia? JJ better turtle? No, are they trashes too? In your logic they are. Stop divide characters into black and white, if character need buffs or moveset rebalance that doesn't mean he is trash. DaddyLaw isn't an argument for me, I have my own experience in 4v4 even custom high level games and 4v4 tier list, in 4v4 LB is quite strong, just tell me why not? He isn't good midder? He isn't ok teamfighter? He isn't strong ganker? He can't stand long in 1v2 situations?

Who is above him? ^^

Vortiger (WAY better defense and also offense), Conq, Raider, Warden, Zerker, Shaolin and maybe pretty likely even JJ.
I never called Nuxia, JJ or Shaman trash. In my mind they are even slightly stronger the LB, because they have more or less viable offense, while having many other benefits.
JJ has 150HP same as LB combined with his hidden stance (great defensive tool)
Shaman can heal on bite and with basic attacks on bleed, while having a well rounded moveset
Nuxia has her traps and pretty unreactable lights.

I don't know how you come up with this idea, but a hero's ability to turtle is not the only argument to determine his power level. It is one shade of many that make a picture all together.

Also if you neglect my point about DaddyLaw in the Tournament, you don't really help your argumentation. You always keep defending LB as "fine" (for the VERY least), while actual LB MAINS disagree with you. Now there was a Tournament with an ACTUAL PRO, and he could't properly help himself. Who should give a damn about you personal experience then? You are not a pro!
In the Tournament DaddyLaw made the one or other kill/assist in ganks, but lost most 1vs1. And he is a really good fighter. An actual pro.
It proves exactly what we are saying! He is decent in ganks, but worthless in 1vs1. You can turtle as much as you want ... you won't take down a whole bunch of other heroes, if played well.

Star.Princess
06-23-2019, 04:53 PM
Who is above him? ^^

Vortiger (WAY better defense and also offense), Conq, Raider, Warden, Zerker, Shaolin and maybe pretty likely even JJ.
I never called Nuxia, JJ or Shaman trash. In my mind they are even slightly stronger the LB, because they have more or less viable offense, while having many other benefits.
JJ has 150HP same as LB combined with his hidden stance (great defensive tool)
Shaman can heal on bite and with basic attacks on bleed, while having a well rounded moveset
Nuxia has her traps and pretty unreactable lights.

I don't know how you come up with this idea, but a hero's ability to turtle is not the only argument to determine his power level. It is one shade of many that make a picture all together.

Also if you neglect my point about DaddyLaw in the Tournament, you don't really help your argumentation. You always keep defending LB as "fine" (for the VERY least), while actual LB MAINS disagree with you. Now there was a Tournament with an ACTUAL PRO, and he could't properly help himself. Who should give a damn about you personal experience then? You are not a pro!
In the Tournament DaddyLaw made the one or other kill/assist in ganks, but lost most 1vs1. And he is a really good fighter. An actual pro.
It proves exactly what we are saying! He is decent in ganks, but worthless in 1vs1. You can turtle as much as you want ... you won't take down a whole bunch of other heroes, if played well.
Vortiger, ok, better in offence, I can agree, in defence, arguably not, he has a stance, but has no zone option select and has lower punishes, but ok, I can agree that Vort can be better, not for too much, but better, maybe. Conq and Warden? Yeah. Zerker? Arguably not, moreover on high high level, when people can react to 400ms lights, Zerk need to do 4 light attack to deal damage more than one light parry, plus difference in 30hp, ok, maybe Zerk slightly better than LB, but please realize their positions, Zerk is S-Tier, 1st or 2nd stronger duel character in the game, you are trying to compare him with LB when nobody call him S-Tier now. Raider? Arguably not, LB do light in block, gain hp lead, what can do Raider? Stunning tap doesn't work on high level (I think we talk about it) or too risky, Raider by and large (even not on high level) has only chain zone attack to attack, but LB has zone option select, top light to interrupt everything and strong punishes and he can gain more hp lead from punishes, it is equal match-up, LB has all chances, Raider isn't stronger than him. Shaolin?! What a joke? He is no doubt weaker than LB, LB has too much hp and too big punishes, Shaolin had very unsafe offence which hidden behind heavies, Shaolin will just die first. Shaman and Nuxia for LB maybe equal match-up, but not better, like with Shaolin, LB has big hp and big punishes, he can just win them on their own offence. JJ as a turtle good too, but he doesn't outclass LB in everything, far from everything, at least in terms of punishes, also, which is really big weakness of JJ, he can't punish bashes on reaction, when LB can.

I know that heroes strong not only because they are cool turtles, but if character can deal avarage more damage by counter-attacks than opponent can deal by his offence, I think it is strong and can be compensation for lack fo strong offence.

Why DaddyLaw is ACTUAL PRO? I thought he is streamer, all streamers are pro now? Did he play tournaments? I don't see him in top tier teams. Maybe he is decent player, but he isn't apro. If you call DaddyLaw ACTUAL PRO so why can't I call myself an ACTUAL PRO?
Man, are you joking now? 1v1 is the very last thing in 4v4, people usualy do teamfights only so character ability to fight 1v1 usually worthless, REAL ACTUAL PRO (to which DaddyLaw doesn't belong) running and rolling if they can't win in 1v1, that is mean you can play on Cent and just running away from Conq on the point being bad 1v1 hero and when you are Conq people can run and roll out of you, both situations shows that your 1v1 potential doesn't mean a lot, and as I said, 1v1s are rare, especially on high level, teamfight potenital the most meaningful thing, just look at Nobu, JJ and Shinobi, all of them had offence worse than LB, but all of them are 4v4 S-Tiers and REAL ACTUAL PRO pick them always on high level, despite the fact you can eternaly turtle against them.

AlphawolfyUP
06-23-2019, 07:11 PM
So, I'm on two minds about LB right now, as someone who mains him. The rework has really improved his viability in a one on one but you are right that he is still lacking any real offensive tools. He has no reliable opener (lights really easy to handle/read once you know the timings/mentality behind using them, shove has a huge telegraph now and a nasty punish window, heavies.. just no.) and no real trading tools (no uninterruptables except the shove which only guarentees a light, never worth the trade unless you have already dropped them low enough for it to be lethal)

He is built around defence, which as someone who enjoys the style this is fine by itself. The issue comes from most of the game rewarding offence far more than defence, this being why raider's current broken state is so glaringly obvious and talked about. When all-out offence with soft feints and hyper armoured chains get the best results, any class not built around that is going to suffer while the current meta holds. Ubi actually got something right there by changing OOS mechanics, they actually resolved one of the issues that makes full offence so viable. They just need to give a little more love to the defensive classes. (and obviously deal with raider)

My other mind is I'm winning far more than 50% of the time with LB, but thats more to do with how he clicks for me, he suits my playstyle almost perfectly though ik I'm in the tiny minority on that part. Most people I know still consider him a trash pick. I'm suprised anyone would argue he is truely viable yet, and I wouldn't mind him being changed away from my preferred style if it ment LB was enjoyable and viable for the majority,

Knight_Raime
06-23-2019, 08:12 PM
So, I'm on two minds about LB right now, as someone who mains him. The rework has really improved his viability in a one on one but you are right that he is still lacking any real offensive tools. He has no reliable opener (lights really easy to handle/read once you know the timings/mentality behind using them, shove has a huge telegraph now and a nasty punish window, heavies.. just no.) and no real trading tools (no uninterruptables except the shove which only guarentees a light, never worth the trade unless you have already dropped them low enough for it to be lethal)

He is built around defence, which as someone who enjoys the style this is fine by itself. The issue comes from most of the game rewarding offence far more than defence, this being why raider's current broken state is so glaringly obvious and talked about. When all-out offence with soft feints and hyper armoured chains get the best results, any class not built around that is going to suffer while the current meta holds. Ubi actually got something right there by changing OOS mechanics, they actually resolved one of the issues that makes full offence so viable. They just need to give a little more love to the defensive classes. (and obviously deal with raider)

My other mind is I'm winning far more than 50% of the time with LB, but thats more to do with how he clicks for me, he suits my playstyle almost perfectly though ik I'm in the tiny minority on that part. Most people I know still consider him a trash pick. I'm suprised anyone would argue he is truely viable yet, and I wouldn't mind him being changed away from my preferred style if it ment LB was enjoyable and viable for the majority,

Considering attempting to interrupt him externally can lead to a 40 or 50 damage punish pretty often he's dang scary to try to attack. He's got quick enough attacks of his own to interrupt and a semi solid mid chain mix up. Considering you can shove after an unblockable finisher it means you can reaction punish people who side dodge. But even though there are ways to punish a back dodge on read for LB his finisher mix ups are still semi lacking.

He's viable in the sense that he's a very strong turtle. Which admittingly doesn't matter too much to the majority of the players in this game because most put far more value in things that can be safely spammed. But against actual competent players in higher level play LB is VERY viable.

Goat_of_Vermund
06-24-2019, 12:35 PM
What I would give him is hyperarmor on all heavy finishers, lighting him out of it seems to be completely safe even with 500ms, let alone other 400ms. I would also give him hyperarmored longarm softfeints from heavies (not the finisher). On the other hand, his top light opener shouldn't be 400ms, make that one 500ms too.

UbiInsulin
06-24-2019, 06:50 PM
So, I'm on two minds about LB right now, as someone who mains him. The rework has really improved his viability in a one on one but you are right that he is still lacking any real offensive tools. He has no reliable opener (lights really easy to handle/read once you know the timings/mentality behind using them, shove has a huge telegraph now and a nasty punish window, heavies.. just no.) and no real trading tools (no uninterruptables except the shove which only guarentees a light, never worth the trade unless you have already dropped them low enough for it to be lethal)

He is built around defence, which as someone who enjoys the style this is fine by itself. The issue comes from most of the game rewarding offence far more than defence, this being why raider's current broken state is so glaringly obvious and talked about. When all-out offence with soft feints and hyper armoured chains get the best results, any class not built around that is going to suffer while the current meta holds. Ubi actually got something right there by changing OOS mechanics, they actually resolved one of the issues that makes full offence so viable. They just need to give a little more love to the defensive classes. (and obviously deal with raider)

My other mind is I'm winning far more than 50% of the time with LB, but thats more to do with how he clicks for me, he suits my playstyle almost perfectly though ik I'm in the tiny minority on that part. Most people I know still consider him a trash pick. I'm suprised anyone would argue he is truely viable yet, and I wouldn't mind him being changed away from my preferred style if it ment LB was enjoyable and viable for the majority,

How would you further change defensive classes? This is interesting to me because I would say this suggestion sort of goes against the grain.

AlphawolfyUP
06-25-2019, 02:44 AM
How would you further change defensive classes? This is interesting to me because I would say this suggestion sort of goes against the grain.

It's a difficult issue to solve without being too heavy-handed or simplistic over it I think, I can give you what I feel some defence based classes are lacking though. For LB and Nobu, it feels like they have no way of forcing their opponent to act. They have no method with which to apply pressure on the opponent. The hardest fight for a defence based class to win is against an opponent who understands this, because they will just make safe pokes/feints without ever commiting to something I could counter. While in duels/brawls this is less of an issue because you can just be patient, in objective based modes this becomes a huge issue.

Trying to carry a Breach game as the attacker with LB for example is impossible because the defender can just turtle and waste your time. They know you have no real openers and they also know if they don't give you a way in they can force you into making a bad choice based on the clock. With offence based classes this isn't a problem, even against a defence class defender because right now all-out offence is king. Without a way of harrassing the opponent, they will never feel the need to take a risk, LB's new lights solve that at the lower skill levels but once you are higher up they become parry fodder.

Nobushi suffers the same problem but more severely, all of her openers are very easy to read, her lights are terrible, her kick is so easy to read and avoid that you will never land one vs a high skill opponent, hidden stance is a downright OP defensive tool but that doesn't matter when you are facing someone who knows to play slow and safe. Defensive classes are next to worthless on any Attacker objective, but Offensive classes have no such issue with being on the Defender team, this to me shows a clear problem with how they are designed or how the game mode is. So while I can't see a way objective based maps could be changed, its clear to me that defensive based classes need to be.

That's just covering openers and the stalemate issue, when it comes to trading in contextless combat (for the sake of an example lets just use duels) they run into a new set of issues. LB has no trading tools bar his shove, which as I said before only guarentees a light, so shoving to get a hit is never a good trade of damage. All of his actual attacks are interruptable despite the heavies being very slow and easy to read/parry. His finisher, while good for baiting OOS parry attempts, is not much use outside of that, so while LB has a huge amount of potential damage, it is rare any of it actually lands.

While I have said before I don't like simply giving everyone hyper armour as to me that seems a little lazy and simplistic, right now short of adding new mechanics, I don't see any other way of making LB chains viable without giving some parts of them hyper armour. Compare this to raider (simply because he is the most prominent issue right now) Raider has soft feintable openers which prevent people just trying to dodge or light into them (ST feint lands faster than most classes light) and hyper armoured chain heavies which completely outrade any assassin's dodge-strike or any classes counter attack. And this is coming from a class who can open up with an unblockable heavy, while a class like LB only has a threat like that at the end of his chain, a chain that requires a heavy beforehand, and can only be hard feinted.

Nobushi is harder to fix I think, but from what I hear she is being reworked anyway so I think its best to wait and see how that goes.Ultimately, defensive classes at the moment have to purely rely on unforced errors, because they have no real way to force their opponent to take a risk, solve that one issue and the rest of their kit would become vastly more viable.

As an edit at the end, I have only referrenced Nobushi and LB because they are the two I am most familiar with, and I know there are others with their own issues but I feel like someone who mains them would probably do them more justice than I ever could, and only using nobu and LB makes for a much shorter read. :)

Lukettle
06-25-2019, 10:28 AM
+ His range. One of my biggest issues with this character is his frustratingly short range. He has a polearm but it feels like he barely reaches anything. Make him move forward more when he attacks. Increase his swings reach. Its GODAWFUL! Especially side unblockable. All his side heavies should cover same area as prior/kensei/Valkyrie. And if not, whatever, just increase his range because... absolutely no good reason not to.

MrB3NX
06-26-2019, 04:12 PM
Lawbringer does not need to be stronger than he is

right now he is the most fearsome hybird on the roaster

tell me one aspect he doesn't already obtain ?

The_B0G_
06-26-2019, 04:17 PM
Lawbringer does not need to be stronger than he is

right now he is the most fearsome hybird on the roaster

tell me one aspect he doesn't already obtain ?

No soft feints, no HA on strikes, stamina is brutal, so he can't sustain pressure on offense. Top light is his only opener.

John.Mesa
08-24-2019, 06:59 PM
Its two guy are LB Main make him more OP

Why not give him light attac t one shot everyone it how to make LB Main people happy DONEa

KotoKuraken
08-24-2019, 07:51 PM
He is a counter attacker hero with no counter attacks. His bash is always interrupted by other bashes, he can't cancel his bash like Warden and Shaman can do and Cent will be able to do, his parry attempts are always interrupted or easily countered, he takes way too much stamina to do any sort of offensive combo ever, he doesn't have crushing counters to counter anyone, he has no softfeints into anything, he has no range on his attacks, his zone is slow and predictable, and he has no hyperarmor on anything despite being the most heavily armored unit in the entire game while some assassin gets it as well as a vanguard that has almost as much health as him.

Did I leave anything out?

iadvisoryi
08-24-2019, 08:13 PM
Buff law..... Who gets like 60dmg or so on a light parry and a setup, he has an armored sb dodge, a fast ub cancel setup, 400ms top light poke and hes in the meta because of all the aggressive characters and styles being introduced with characters and reworks.

He needs zero, ZERO change.

Also kensei has no identity, his heavy gb cancels are useless and his lights are reactable. And his hilt smash is readable.

SixAxe505
08-24-2019, 08:18 PM
No he doesn't. Lawbringer is borderline broken if played the right way. Keyword Right Way. You say he needs more but what are you willing to give up? Because i think its time that health got hit to 120 to start.

KotoKuraken
08-24-2019, 08:34 PM
Buff law..... Who gets like 60dmg or so on a light parry and a setup, he has an armored sb dodge, a fast ub cancel setup, 400ms top light poke and hes in the meta because of all the aggressive characters and styles being introduced with characters and reworks.

He needs zero, ZERO change.

Also kensei has no identity, his heavy gb cancels are useless and his lights are reactable. And his hilt smash is readable.

so just because he gets slightly better damage on a light parry, that makes him good? The point of the rework was to make him more offensive. That just sounds like turtling mechanics to me if his only viable offense is parry attempts, which are easily baited out. His 400ms top light is good? So you expect him to poke people to death from one direction, with a move that is countered by keeping your guard top and doesn't chain into anything. So what do you do against someone that has hyperarmor, doesn't throw out lights, and spams bashes that beat out your parry attempts and your bash? What do you do against heroes that are inherently good at punishing you for trying to parry?

Lawbro has asthma and relies too much on turtling, which is not good for the character.

iadvisoryi
08-24-2019, 09:49 PM
so just because he gets slightly better damage on a light parry, that makes him good? The point of the rework was to make him more offensive. That just sounds like turtling mechanics to me if his only viable offense is parry attempts, which are easily baited out. His 400ms top light is good? So you expect him to poke people to death from one direction, with a move that is countered by keeping your guard top and doesn't chain into anything. So what do you do against someone that has hyperarmor, doesn't throw out lights, and spams bashes that beat out your parry attempts and your bash? What do you do against heroes that are inherently good at punishing you for trying to parry?

Lawbro has asthma and relies too much on turtling, which is not good for the character.

You're downplaying lb. HARD.

No the rework wasn't to make him an offensive character because then it wouldn't be lb. He's always been a parry punisher/tank/turtle character.

You want a redesign because he's not what YOU want him to be. His top light poke is good for interruption, he's not orochi, he doesn't need light chains, and a connected light can start pressure on certain characters.

Slightly better dmg? You mean massively better damage on a light party? 20+ more than raider side heavy? Kensei dmg? That's huge. And it's into a setup on top of a daze.

Parry attempts aren't baited out on him. If you see someone throwing a heavy, shove (armor will save you) if you see them chaining lights and doing dash attacks, parry.

It sounds like your "what do you do against someone who doesn't throw lights, spams bashes" etc etc is hinting at conq, Warden, or prior. If they're not being agressive and are just counter attacking a counter attacker, then be patient and just sit there.

"What do you do against heroes that are inherently good at punishing you for trying to parry" you can cancel your heavies. You don't need to follow through with them.

What you want is for him to play to what you want. Switch characters then. Characters like nobushi literally rely on reactable poke. Aramusha relies on you to make a mistake. Kensei is b tier at best and probably in c tier realistically. Nuxia can't catch anybody with anything since she gets poked out of traps/heavies and has a blockable deflect. The list goes on my dude. Your trying to create a problem for a character that doesn't have any to fit your own agenda when other characters actually are struggling to even be playable.

Calm down.

KotoKuraken
08-24-2019, 10:48 PM
You're downplaying lb. HARD.

No the rework wasn't to make him an offensive character because then it wouldn't be lb. He's always been a parry punisher/tank/turtle character.

You want a redesign because he's not what YOU want him to be. His top light poke is good for interruption, he's not orochi, he doesn't need light chains, and a connected light can start pressure on certain characters.

Slightly better dmg? You mean massively better damage on a light party? 20+ more than raider side heavy? Kensei dmg? That's huge. And it's into a setup on top of a daze.

Parry attempts aren't baited out on him. If you see someone throwing a heavy, shove (armor will save you) if you see them chaining lights and doing dash attacks, parry.

It sounds like your "what do you do against someone who doesn't throw lights, spams bashes" etc etc is hinting at conq, Warden, or prior. If they're not being agressive and are just counter attacking a counter attacker, then be patient and just sit there.

"What do you do against heroes that are inherently good at punishing you for trying to parry" you can cancel your heavies. You don't need to follow through with them.

What you want is for him to play to what you want. Switch characters then. Characters like nobushi literally rely on reactable poke. Aramusha relies on you to make a mistake. Kensei is b tier at best and probably in c tier realistically. Nuxia can't catch anybody with anything since she gets poked out of traps/heavies and has a blockable deflect. The list goes on my dude. Your trying to create a problem for a character that doesn't have any to fit your own agenda when other characters actually are struggling to even be playable.

Calm down.

It's not my idea, the devs literally said they wanted Lawbringer to be an offensive character, but also one that counters. He currently does not fit his description at all. Also he gets 55 damage on a light parry, not 20+ more damage than Raider. Remember Raider gets a nice 40 damage as well as a lot of other characters like Kensei, Warden, Aramusha, etc etc. Lawbringer only gets that much because of an extra 15 damage from the light. However, this is a very small and very specific situation when all of Raiders/Wardens/Kensei's/Aramushas heavies do 15 more damage than Lawbro's. They don't need a light parry or some other special condition in order to get all that damage in.
As in, they can get far more damage in far more regularly than the one or two times you get a light parry, which is conditionally hard if your opponent knows you're looking for light parries and baits it. They also all have more stamina than he does, can perform far more mixups without running out of stamina, have light chains, and have more raw damage on the regular than Lawbro, so essentially they throw out a lot more damage than Lawbro does. They're better at his role than he is.

As far as the "just sit there" argument, that's exactly what I'm talking about with how they did not make him an offensive character. If your only options are to just sit there until they do something, that's not offensive gameplay, and you're turtling even harder than before. The description that Ubi clearly set out for him has failed.

I'm not the one pissed here, and this is nothing about my agenda. This is about getting the character to fit the theme that Ubi said he would be delivered as, and you're getting worked up because he might get the buffs he deserves to fit that deliverable and be a viable hero.

SixAxe505
08-24-2019, 11:22 PM
It's not my idea, the devs literally said they wanted Lawbringer to be an offensive character, but also one that counters. He currently does not fit his description at all. Also he gets 55 damage on a light parry, not 20+ more damage than Raider. Remember Raider gets a nice 40 damage as well as a lot of other characters like Kensei, Warden, Aramusha, etc etc. Lawbringer only gets that much because of an extra 15 damage from the light. However, this is a very small and very specific situation when all of Raiders/Wardens/Kensei's/Aramushas heavies do 15 more damage than Lawbro's. They don't need a light parry or some other special condition in order to get all that damage in.
As in, they can get far more damage in far more regularly than the one or two times you get a light parry, which is conditionally hard if your opponent knows you're looking for light parries and baits it. They also all have more stamina than he does, can perform far more mixups without running out of stamina, have light chains, and have more raw damage on the regular than Lawbro, so essentially they throw out a lot more damage than Lawbro does. They're better at his role than he is.

As far as the "just sit there" argument, that's exactly what I'm talking about with how they did not make him an offensive character. If your only options are to just sit there until they do something, that's not offensive gameplay, and you're turtling even harder than before. The description that Ubi clearly set out for him has failed.

I'm not the one pissed here, and this is nothing about my agenda. This is about getting the character to fit the theme that Ubi said he would be delivered as, and you're getting worked up because he might get the buffs he deserves to fit that deliverable and be a viable hero.

You lack foresight. If they add anything more to his kit then we have a another raider problem on our hands. As he is, he is good. He is got a lot going for him, while most characters don't.

TOCKSYK
08-25-2019, 01:06 AM
He is a powerful defensive character and has a good oos pressure. He throws you while oos, you lose like 70 hp guaranteed? does he do 35 dmg on heavies? plus if he lands his bash afterwards which is very possible he get like 15 more, and he flows into unblockable which is again a mixup. So if you guess wrong on completely everything, you are one light away from death. His parry punishes are craaazy as well, he gets like 50 off a light parry, and if he has a wall in front of him, heavy parries destroy people as well

iadvisoryi
08-25-2019, 03:41 AM
It's not my idea, the devs literally said they wanted Lawbringer to be an offensive character, but also one that counters. He currently does not fit his description at all. Also he gets 55 damage on a light parry, not 20+ more damage than Raider. Remember Raider gets a nice 40 damage as well as a lot of other characters like Kensei, Warden, Aramusha, etc etc. Lawbringer only gets that much because of an extra 15 damage from the light. However, this is a very small and very specific situation when all of Raiders/Wardens/Kensei's/Aramushas heavies do 15 more damage than Lawbro's. They don't need a light parry or some other special condition in order to get all that damage in.
As in, they can get far more damage in far more regularly than the one or two times you get a light parry, which is conditionally hard if your opponent knows you're looking for light parries and baits it. They also all have more stamina than he does, can perform far more mixups without running out of stamina, have light chains, and have more raw damage on the regular than Lawbro, so essentially they throw out a lot more damage than Lawbro does. They're better at his role than he is.

As far as the "just sit there" argument, that's exactly what I'm talking about with how they did not make him an offensive character. If your only options are to just sit there until they do something, that's not offensive gameplay, and you're turtling even harder than before. The description that Ubi clearly set out for him has failed.

I'm not the one pissed here, and this is nothing about my agenda. This is about getting the character to fit the theme that Ubi said he would be delivered as, and you're getting worked up because he might get the buffs he deserves to fit that deliverable and be a viable hero.

My guy, If you want aggressive, play hito or raider. Idk why you expect to play aggressively in every matchup, that's ignorant. You have to change your playstyle against almost every character, that's the fun of for honor.

You said the heros you listed don't need special conditions to hit their high dmg heavy? WHAT? Aramusha can only hit his heavies if he deadly faints them and the opponent doesn't guess right. Which might I remind you he has no armor on that. His hidden stance doesn't guarantee anything but hilt smash and the kick, if your lucky you'll get a wall splat. Warden has to delay heavies or hit a charged bash to hit a heavy. Your argument for "requiring someing extra to land a heavy" isn't valid. Most characters this is the case.

The devs wanted to give him more offense, not make him a strictly offensive character. Your telling me an armored shove isn't offense? One that guarantees a mix up? Which is PRESSURE!? Law isn't meant to mix you like a hybrid/assassin!

Not every character needs ubs armor and mix to make them good my guy. I'm sick of the devs putting armor and ubs in everybody, most if not all of the top tiers have armor or faintable strong ubs. Law can literally be getting mixed by a musha, he tries to deadly faint, and you armor shove slay him.

Law needs nothing. And the guy above me said it best.

John.Mesa
08-25-2019, 07:55 AM
He is a powerful defensive character and has a good oos pressure. He throws you while oos, you lose like 70 hp guaranteed? does he do 35 dmg on heavies? plus if he lands his bash afterwards which is very possible he get like 15 more, and he flows into unblockable which is again a mixup. So if you guess wrong on completely everything, you are one light away from death. His parry punishes are craaazy as well, he gets like 50 off a light parry, and if he has a wall in front of him, heavy parries destroy people as well

Yes it true

But its people only make LB more OP it are LB Main people its post