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Siegfried-Z
06-20-2019, 05:15 PM
Just let it here. Imo these changes are good.

https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/c2j676/maintenance_alert_all_platforms_v2102_june_20th/

The_B0G_
06-20-2019, 06:20 PM
An LB nerf? Really? Ugh... these devs...

Star.Princess
06-20-2019, 06:36 PM
An LB nerf? Really? Ugh... these devs...
First of all, this nerf is deserved, stamina damage was too much, secondaly, he is enough strong and can stand this nerf, I don't see reasons to be sad about such little thing if character is already quite good.

garr1999
06-20-2019, 06:52 PM
he's only good when you parry still is parrying isn't gonna
save this guy from getting hit by 100 ms lights in the future

garr1999
06-20-2019, 06:56 PM
another fact is the impale still gets over 100 stamina
taken for a blocked impale isn't that kinda unnecessary

EvoX.
06-20-2019, 07:22 PM
Would really prefer for Raider's animations to be smoothed, specifically his janky lights...

The_B0G_
06-20-2019, 07:41 PM
First of all, this nerf is deserved, stamina damage was too much, secondaly, he is enough strong and can stand this nerf, I don't see reasons to be sad about such little thing if character is already quite good.

If you get hit with an LB top heavy, you deserve to lose a lot of stamina. The point I was making is that he's already mediocre, he is definitely not a strong character and I've seen literally no threads complaining about anything to do with his stamina drain.

Yet he's nerfed.

Star.Princess
06-20-2019, 09:28 PM
If you get hit with an LB top heavy, you deserve to lose a lot of stamina. The point I was making is that he's already mediocre, he is definitely not a strong character and I've seen literally no threads complaining about anything to do with his stamina drain.
Now you lose a lot of stamina, a lot, but ok, before nerf you was OOS after 2 top heavies, it wasn't ok. He is mediocre? What? In 4v4, Highlander is mediocre, Shugoki is mediocre, Nuxia is mediocre, Tiandi is medicore, LB isn't mediocre, he is meta pick, it isn't even tier list, it my own experience in 4v4 after rework, even high level custom games for him. He is really strong now, he is ok teamfighter, strong ganker, strong midder, ok antiganker, it is enough to be much higher than mediocre. In 1v1 he is good too, again, it isn't even tier list, it is my own experience too, I played duels for him and against him a lot after rework, he isn't S-Tier, but solid middle of A-Tier.

garr1999
06-20-2019, 11:31 PM
dude the heavies are slow and easily parried plus can only stun from top guard
with his super slow heavies that are more of a risk than a reward in itself
raider on the other had too many options when oosing his opponent and it's
faster with raider in between these two character which one is gonna kill you
faster honestly

Vakris_One
06-20-2019, 11:32 PM
Just let it here. Imo these changes are good.

https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/c2j676/maintenance_alert_all_platforms_v2102_june_20th/
Yeah, all these number changes are good. I don't get why they didn't tweak Valkyrie's stamina damage on her finisher light as well but it's a good sign that they understood how bad of an idea it was to give such high stamina damage when stamina in general is in such a poor state in this game. And it's nice to see them act so quickly on a simple issue for a change.

Hopefully we can get these kinds of small number changes more often as there are a fair few problems that would be alleviated somewhat just with some number tweaks.

Star.Princess
06-21-2019, 12:47 AM
dude the heavies are slow and easily parried plus can only stun from top guard
with his super slow heavies that are more of a risk than a reward in itself
raider on the other had too many options when oosing his opponent and it's
faster with raider in between these two character which one is gonna kill you
faster honestly
His heavies aren't slow, 1000ms is slow, his side heavies 800ms, it is middle value, even Zerk or Shaolin have the same on side, are theirs heavies slow?
Easily parried? Do you know about feints?
On console (as I know you are console player) of course Raider is much better, but on PC stunning tap is reactable and Raider vs Lawbringer is equal matchup, Raider is better offensivly, Lawbringer is better defensivly (and just good in defence so he can win Raider with punishes).

garr1999
06-21-2019, 01:59 AM
I was talking about his top heavies about arounds
1000 ms his sides 800ms don't do stun nor stam damage
while lawbringer is defensive isn't that what they were trying to stop
since the whole route of offensive began in the first play turtle was
never his identity you don't see turtle next to counter attacker
I'm rep 23 with him and I'm tired of looking at people
you can't open people with how lawbringer is right now

garr1999
06-21-2019, 02:01 AM
He has no pressure to him it's ridiculous

Hormly
06-21-2019, 04:21 AM
Personally I never thought the idea of having huge stamina draining moves to be a good idea for this game, being OOS all the time isn't very engaging for a fighting game

I always thought of stamina as a system that forced us to be careful with our offense. that certain heroes can catch you in a move and put you in (and keep you in) a state where you can't do anything is pretty lame.

garr1999
06-21-2019, 04:36 AM
I can agree that stamina draining moves are oppressive
but the devs consider it as an offensive playstyle
and I don't think they're gonna change that
even if most people don't like it even though
the mechanic is abused by everyone when
you fight them or when they fight you
bashes/softfeint mixups etc. even if they
nerf it heavily it's still used and abused because
it gives reactions and damage

Hormly
06-21-2019, 07:07 AM
I can agree that stamina draining moves are oppressive
but the devs consider it as an offensive playstyle
and I don't think they're gonna change that
even if most people don't like it even though
the mechanic is abused by everyone when
you fight them or when they fight you
bashes/softfeint mixups etc. even if they
nerf it heavily it's still used and abused because
it gives reactions and damage

Seema the stamina DMG nerfs are an example of the devs changing that

Siegfried-Z
06-21-2019, 08:48 AM
Yeah, all these number changes are good. I don't get why they didn't tweak Valkyrie's stamina damage on her finisher light as well but it's a good sign that they understood how bad of an idea it was to give such high stamina damage when stamina in general is in such a poor state in this game. And it's nice to see them act so quickly on a simple issue for a change.

Hopefully we can get these kinds of small number changes more often as there are a fair few problems that would be alleviated somewhat just with some number tweaks.

Maybe they are waiting for Valk because she is in a bad state atm and they dont want to nerf a heroe already in trouble. Or maybe they consoder the moove fine as he is because it doesnt work that often. Dont know

These little patch fixing a few things are always welcome yes.
Imo Urgent things like Valk dmg, Glad guard or 600m lights still in the game should be fixed with these kind of patch. We should not wait rework/balancing for these kind of things.

Star.Princess
06-21-2019, 10:11 AM
I'm rep 23 with him and I'm tired of looking at people
you can't open people with how lawbringer is right now
It is funny, because you play on console, he can attack even on PC, on console all heroes can attack much better and LB too. Heavy to block and delayed bash, or heavy to block and something that will catch in dodge (heavy, heavy to gb or buffered top light), it works even on PC, because it has the same speed with BP's or Conq's delayed bashes, on console it is unreactable. Also you can do heavy, feint and top light, people usually miss it on PC, on console it is completely uncreactable thing too. Of course it isn't better offence in the game, but if you need to take hp lead or do some damage you can do it.

Illyrian_King
06-21-2019, 12:07 PM
If you get hit with an LB top heavy, you deserve to lose a lot of stamina. The point I was making is that he's already mediocre, he is definitely not a strong character and I've seen literally no threads complaining about anything to do with his stamina drain.

Yet he's nerfed.

Absolutely!

If you managed to get hit by a top heavy, you really deserved what came next ;b

Vakris_One
06-21-2019, 02:56 PM
Maybe they are waiting for Valk because she is in a bad state atm and they dont want to nerf a heroe already in trouble. Or maybe they consoder the moove fine as he is because it doesnt work that often. Dont know

These little patch fixing a few things are always welcome yes.
Imo Urgent things like Valk dmg, Glad guard or 600m lights still in the game should be fixed with these kind of patch. We should not wait rework/balancing for these kind of things.
I would agree. Especially for characters that do not need a massive rework when some number tweaks will help update them a little bit so they can at least keep up with the latest version of the game's state of balance. Things like Peacekeeper still having a paltry 20 damage from a side heavy, Kensei having a laughable 12 damage from a 600ms light and etc.

It would be a good sign for the game if they start doing small number tweak patches like this more often.

Siegfried-Z
06-21-2019, 11:25 PM
I would agree. Especially for characters that do not need a massive rework when some number tweaks will help update them a little bit so they can at least keep up with the latest version of the game's state of balance. Things like Peacekeeper still having a paltry 20 damage from a side heavy, Kensei having a laughable 12 damage from a 600ms light and etc.

It would be a good sign for the game if they start doing small number tweak patches like this more often.

Haha despite my 30reps with Kensei i forgot about this 12dmg lights because i never used it since the rework .
About PK dmg on heavies i dont think she needs this kind of buff as she add 11 bleed dmg but she definitly needs love yes.

Few weaks ago they said Shinobi and Glad guard was going to be buff with the mid season patch but we are still waiting... :/

DaytimeRaider
06-22-2019, 01:14 AM
Haha despite my 30reps with Kensei i forgot about this 12dmg lights because i never used it since the rework .
About PK dmg on heavies i dont think she needs this kind of buff as she add 11 bleed dmg but she definitly needs love yes.

Few weaks ago they said Shinobi and Glad guard was going to be buff with the mid season patch but we are still waiting... :/

Haven't posted in quite a bit but happy that I don't have to sound like a broken record anymore making a thread begging for the glad and shinobi guard break buff. Really there is no reason to hold it back anymore. I wish that they would come out and say they are either going to do the buff or not, Tired of looking through the patch notes and not seeing it when we were expecting it. It would suck if they weren't going to stick to their word and do the buff but I would be much happier if there was confirmation at least that it wont happen that way I don't have to get my hopes up each patch notes just to be disappointed again that it's not there.

The_B0G_
06-22-2019, 02:16 PM
It would be a good sign for the game if they start doing small number tweak patches like this more often.

I would agree, except these small changes seem to be mostly only nerfs to characters I play, none of which have been requested by the community.

Quicker, small balances would be great though, as long as buffs accompany the nerfs to the weaker characters who are recieving balances.

LB for instance, gets a stamina drain nerf for attacks and doesn't get an overall stamina buff, which has been requested and he is in need of.

Bad balancing.

Vakris_One
06-22-2019, 04:39 PM
I would agree, except these small changes seem to be mostly only nerfs to characters I play, none of which have been requested by the community.

Quicker, small balances would be great though, as long as buffs accompany the nerfs to the weaker characters who are recieving balances.

LB for instance, gets a stamina drain nerf for attacks and doesn't get an overall stamina buff, which has been requested and he is in need of.

Bad balancing.
But the community has requested a tone down of stamina drains. Especially from Raider and specifically in response to the patch before this one that gave LB and Valk inflated stam drains and gave Raider even more stam drain than he had previously. It is in fact the very reason why the devs backed down from their choice to give such over-inflated stamina damage to Raider and LB. So you're not correct in saying that the community hasn't requested these kinds of changes because they have.

Secondly, Lawbringer is not one of the "weaker characters". He's a viable and decent pick in every mode. The key point from genuine complaints about his rework are that he "could have been given a bit more", not that he was made weaker than before. You're also omitting that he did in fact receive some buffs in this patch and not just nerfs. The guardbreak vulnerability on his regular zone was reduced by 100ms and the extra stamina cost on his impale hit and exit animations was removed entirely. Those are some pretty decent buffs.

This so called "stamina drain nerf" he received; he's only had this inflated stamina drain for about 2 weeks before they reverted the changes and it honestly makes no difference to his overall viability or power one way or the other. It is of far greater importance to maintain an integrity in equalising stamina drain mechanics across the board than it is to give some randomly chosen characters a novelty placebo that is ultimately meaningless to their viability.

The answer to the criticism of Lawbringer's rework is not going to be provided by tinkering with some token stamina drain numbers. If anything this is just a distraction away from focusing on genuinley addressing the inherent flaws of the "hero identity" which the developers have assigned him in the modern game.

Thirdly, yes LB is in need of a stamina buff as has the entire roster of this game ever since the false positives that the previous gear mechanic was propping up were removed. The developers however have stated that they will not be increasing stamina pools nor changing stamina costs globally. So that's that until they either wake up and smell the coffee or give us something else that addresses the poor state of stamina in this game.

The_B0G_
06-22-2019, 05:03 PM
But the community has requested a tone down of stamina drains. Especially from Raider and specifically in response to the patch before this one that gave LB and Valk inflated stam drains and gave Raider even more stam drain than he had previously. It is in fact the very reason why the devs backed down from their choice to give such over-inflated stamina damage to Raider and LB. So you're not correct in saying that the community hasn't requested these kinds of changes because they have.

Secondly, Lawbringer is not one of the "weaker characters". He's a viable and decent pick in every mode. The key point from genuine complaints about his rework are that he "could have been given a bit more", not that he was made weaker than before. You're also omitting that he did in fact receive some buffs in this patch and not just nerfs. The guardbreak vulnerability on his regular zone was reduced by 100ms and the extra stamina cost on his impale hit and exit animations was removed entirely. Those are some pretty decent buffs.

This so called "stamina drain nerf" he received; he's only had this inflated stamina drain for about 2 weeks before they reverted the changes and it honestly makes no difference to his overall viability or power one way or the other. It is of far greater more importance to maintain an integrity in equalising stamina drain mechanics across the board than it is to give some randomly chosen characters a novelty placebo that is ultimately meaningless to their viability.

The answer to the criticism of Lawbringer's rework is not going to be provided by tinkering with some token stamina drain numbers. If anything this is just a distraction away from focusing on genuinley addressing the inherent flaws of the "hero identity" which the developers have assigned him in the modern game.

Thirdly, yes LB is in need of a stamina buff as has the entire roster of this game ever since the false positives that the previous gear mechanic was propping up were removed. The developers however have stated that they will not be increasing stamina pools nor changing stamina costs globally. So that's that until they either wake up and smell the coffee or give us something else that addresses the poor state of stamina in this game.

I've seen people complain about Raider's stamina drain but not anyone else, because everything he does drains stamina, even carrying other players drains the other players stamina lol ridiculous, but no, I haven't seen any mention of anyone asking for an LB stamina drain nerf, but I also didn't realize his values were inflated 2 weeks ago because I haven't played much since Hitokiri was released.

LB may be viable on PC, but try to parry lightspam on console consistently, he's not terrible, but he isn't that great either, compared to the Raider, zerker, or other top tier picks, he's a weak pick. He's only good if you can parry, if you try to use his mid mixup game he can be effective for a few seconds, then you run out of stamina and give the other player time to get help from a teammate or reset the fight.

Stamina isn't an issue for all heroes, it seems like Raider, Hitokiri and zerker to name a few, can go on feinting and attacking indefinitely. Then you have characters like LB and HL that can barely make it through one mixup without becoming exhausted. Like I said, pretty bad balancing going on here, a little give and take would be nice, not just taking when it comes to non top tier characters.

They preach about identity to reinforce nerf decisions and decisions made on reworks, yet they nerf the crap out of Warlords throw distance, WL has basically nothing anymore, his full block is terrible, he has no throw distance advantage anymore, if anything his identity was his ability to ledge and wall splat from anywhere if aimed properly, now he's just bland with no stengths.

Vakris_One
06-23-2019, 02:00 PM
I've seen people complain about Raider's stamina drain but not anyone else, because everything he does drains stamina, even carrying other players drains the other players stamina lol ridiculous, but no, I haven't seen any mention of anyone asking for an LB stamina drain nerf, but I also didn't realize his values were inflated 2 weeks ago because I haven't played much since Hitokiri was released.

LB may be viable on PC, but try to parry lightspam on console consistently, he's not terrible, but he isn't that great either, compared to the Raider, zerker, or other top tier picks, he's a weak pick. He's only good if you can parry, if you try to use his mid mixup game he can be effective for a few seconds, then you run out of stamina and give the other player time to get help from a teammate or reset the fight.

Stamina isn't an issue for all heroes, it seems like Raider, Hitokiri and zerker to name a few, can go on feinting and attacking indefinitely. Then you have characters like LB and HL that can barely make it through one mixup without becoming exhausted. Like I said, pretty bad balancing going on here, a little give and take would be nice, not just taking when it comes to non top tier characters.

They preach about identity to reinforce nerf decisions and decisions made on reworks, yet they nerf the crap out of Warlords throw distance, WL has basically nothing anymore, his full block is terrible, he has no throw distance advantage anymore, if anything his identity was his ability to ledge and wall splat from anywhere if aimed properly, now he's just bland with no stengths.
I'm going to have to disagree with the hypothesis of judging a decent hero as "weak" simply because he isn't one of the top tier heroes as that is false equivalence. The console argument doesn't really hold much water either as the guy has 500ms side lights and a 400ms top light. On console these two things alone are adequate enough to put up a very stern offense against the majority of players.

Stamina-wise, not all heroes feel the burden of stamina as much as others but if you look at stamina costs in general the numbers are ridiculously bad. The numbers haven't been changed since the game first launched and as a result they are as atavistic to the modern game as 600ms lights are.

If you have the time I recommend watching a video that Freeze made, which explains the problem of stamina costs really well.

https://youtu.be/jvlWyfaKuJ4

Knight_Raime
06-23-2019, 05:51 PM
I've seen people complain about Raider's stamina drain but not anyone else, because everything he does drains stamina, even carrying other players drains the other players stamina lol ridiculous, but no, I haven't seen any mention of anyone asking for an LB stamina drain nerf, but I also didn't realize his values were inflated 2 weeks ago because I haven't played much since Hitokiri was released.

LB may be viable on PC, but try to parry lightspam on console consistently, he's not terrible, but he isn't that great either, compared to the Raider, zerker, or other top tier picks, he's a weak pick. He's only good if you can parry, if you try to use his mid mixup game he can be effective for a few seconds, then you run out of stamina and give the other player time to get help from a teammate or reset the fight.

Stamina isn't an issue for all heroes, it seems like Raider, Hitokiri and zerker to name a few, can go on feinting and attacking indefinitely. Then you have characters like LB and HL that can barely make it through one mixup without becoming exhausted. Like I said, pretty bad balancing going on here, a little give and take would be nice, not just taking when it comes to non top tier characters.

They preach about identity to reinforce nerf decisions and decisions made on reworks, yet they nerf the crap out of Warlords throw distance, WL has basically nothing anymore, his full block is terrible, he has no throw distance advantage anymore, if anything his identity was his ability to ledge and wall splat from anywhere if aimed properly, now he's just bland with no stengths.

1) This is likely due to the part of the community you live in. The complaints about valks/LB's stamina drain doesn't come from a place of "wow i'm being bullied" like with Raider. It's a complaint born from a fundemental flaw of the game. Which is how incredibly poor stamina management is in the game. So while LB and Valk certainly do not harass people with stamina damage like raider did no one should be capable of chunking that kind of stamina from someone from single moves.

2) LB is viable on console offensively because he has the same speed of attacks that people complain about, has good recoveries on his bashes, and a very good option select zone. Defensively his parries are the best in the game. While parrying a 500ms buffered light or a 400ms buffered light is more difficult on console it's still more than doable. I was doing this rather frequently post LB rework and i'm not even a plat player. It is true that you need to be able to parry consistently in order to get the most out of LB. But at the level most people play at LB is perfectly viable just by mashing out his own moves. Also just because there are stronger heros doesn't mean said hero is automatically bad.

3) In regards to the stamina comment again it's a global thing. Whiffed attacks cost more stamina. Blocked attacks cost 3.5x? stamina on the move. Soft feints weather they land or not cost the stamina of both the initial move and the new move along side being considered a whiffed attack. The game on a general global scale makes doing offense rather difficult because of these multipliers. And then you have examples of heros where certain moves themselves cost more than they should. Like orochi's storm rush costing 32? stamina even if it lands. Hitokiri has a built in mechanic for her stance attacks where moves specifically cost less. Raider certainly can't spam out feints. While they did increase his stamina pool they also increased the stamina cost for his soft feints. It's very easy to go OOS with raider. Like Vakris I recommend watching Freezes video about stamina costs.

Sakura__Empire
06-25-2019, 12:57 PM
I think too many people will be happy to see old raider again

Star.Princess
06-25-2019, 01:47 PM
I think too many people will be happy to see old raider again
Most players in this game are casuals who don't know what genre of game they play.

The_B0G_
06-25-2019, 05:05 PM
In my opinion, the main issue with all the OP heroes isn't that they are completely broken in general, they are just so far above most of the other heroes in the cast.

People want nerfs because they know this dev team takes 6 months to rework a couple of characters, and that's a long time to put up with a hero who totally outclasses most other heroes.

If everyone was reworked and powerful at the same time, it wouldn't be such an issue, the snails pace that the devs work at is the main problem with balance.

Again, this is only my opinion.