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Terrenceflynn
09-06-2009, 09:55 PM
I first would like to compliment Oleg on his excellent work and the amazing IL2 series.

For the KI-43, they reigned supreme in China and Burma because they used explosive ammo. The Japanese considered the 12.7mm a cannon. The 12.7 used on the KI-43 B and C experienced problems with early shell detonation after fire, causing some planes to be lost.

As noted in the 249th Hard Luck Sq article:

The pilots of the 248 th suffered no additional combat losses until the 26 th . That day Major Muraoka led about twenty fighters of the “Composite Fighter Unit” including fourteen from the 248 th to escort ten light bombers of the 208 th Sentai attacking Australian artillery positions along the Song River near Finschhafen. After the bombing twenty fighters (P-39s, P-40s and Australian Boomerangs) intercepted the withdrawing Japanese formation. The Americans claimed nine ZEKES and OSCARS. Four Hayabusas were lost including two from the 248 th . One P-39 and two Boomerangs went down. No Japanese bombers were lost or damaged. This bombing attack was more successful than earlier attacks and inflicted some casualties and damage among the Australians.

This combat tends to confirm intelligence reports that state that the Hayabusa's machine cannon, though having poor penetrative powers, had significant explosive effect. A Type 1 fighter that he identified as a ZEKE hit 1 st Lt. Roy Klanrud a P-40 pilot of the 35 th FS. According to Klanrud: “I knew I was badly shot up…I expected another attack which would have been fatal because my elevator and coolant was shot up by a 20mm cannon. Three bullets hit my armor plate and glanced off, clearing out the glass of the canopy on the left side.” More than one American fighter pilot hit by 12.7mm explosive rounds thought he had been hit by the larger 20mm round fired by the Japanese Navy's Zero fighter. A partial explanation for this phenomenon is suggested by findings of Britain's Ordnance Board that tested Japanese army 12.7mm ammunition. A 1944 report said: “The fuse of the H.E./I. [high explosive/incendiary] shell is probably too sensitive for optimum performance.” In tests in India the same type ammunition failed to ignite fuel in a partially filled petrol tin, it was thought because “the blast effect was such that any possibility of petrol or petrol vapour being set on fire was nullified because of this.” Another report concluded the super-sensitive fuse was likely to explode against an aircraft's wing or fuselage skin before penetrating to a fuel tank. Japanese armor piercing ammunition was found to be effective against certain types of Allied armor at least at close ranges on the order of 100 yards.

http://www.j-aircraft.com/rese...nn/248th/248th-2.htm (http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/248th/248th-2.htm)

An Allied intelligence report in mid-November 1942 stated that four "Army 01 S/e fighters" had been located on the ground as a result of enemy raids on the Dinjan area at the end of October. No other type of fighter had been found. The report went on to state that despite reports to the contrary "the armament of this type has been found to be still only one 12.7mm cannon and one 7.7mm machine gun firing through the airscrew..." Ammunition belting for the 12.7mm cannon was described as almost entirely explosive and from reports of hits on Allied armor its penetrative power seemed poor [11].

Additionally, in the book "Oscar Aces of The IJAAF" it is noted that ALL KI-43s had 13mm of rubber around their fuel tanks, and that beginning with the KI-43II there was 13mm of armor behind the pilot. here were issues on early KI-43s with the self sealing in the tropical heat and the rubber seal. All solved by the KI-43II.

Currently in the game the KI-43II is useless in shooting down other planes. If the explosive ammo was included, it would be modeled correctly.

Thanks for listening,
Terry

mortoma
09-06-2009, 10:16 PM
Oh, I don't know if they are "useless" for killing other planes, as you say. I seem to remember flying them in a campaign for a while and I shot down lots of Hellcats, Wildcats, SBD's and Avengers. I bet I got just as many, or nearly as many kills in them as most any other fighters I fly.

A similar whine has echoed through this forum at many times with people saying similar things about the early Italian fighters. But in a campaign, starting with the MC-200 through the last variant of the MC-202 equipped only with MGs, I had over 90 victories and that included many tough to kill LaGG fighters and IL2s. If you can shoot down a LaGG, modeled as if it is made from titanium and diamonds, then you can shoot down anything, period. With aircraft using only machine guns, careful shooting and use of rudders to wander your bullets over vulnerable areas such as cockpits and wings makes the difference. So it's not just learning to fly, it's also learning to shoot.

As with any fighter, you have to actually learn to fly and capitalize on what you have to fight with. If you want me to make and then post videos or tracks showing me devastating tough Wildcats and Hellcats with the KI-43II, I'm game!!

Terrenceflynn
09-06-2009, 10:33 PM
Mortoma,

You mentioned the KI-43III. It was the definitive version, with fuel tank protection, a great engine, armor for pilot and all kinks worked out of the 12.7. The KI-43II was close to this, the armor plate did not come until production number 5919, mid way through. The explosive ammo explains why the Japanes stuck with only two guns and made it work.

Thanks,
Terry

ImpStarDuece
09-07-2009, 01:30 AM
The 12.7 x 81 cartridge wasn't particularly a powerful round, particularly not compared to the US M2 Browning (12.7 x 99) and Russian UB (12.7 x 108).


The Ho-103 also had severe issues with synchronisation when firing through a propeller, dropping the rate of fire to around 400 rpm.

Also

The explosive round really wasn't that effective, certainly no more so than opposing HMGs.To the best of my knowledge, the 12.7mm HE projectile used in the Japanese 12.7 x 81 contained just 0.8g of Penthrite wax (PETN) in a 38 g cartridge.

Compare this to real cannon rounds of the period and the Ho-103 comes off very poorly indeed:

SHVaK (20 x 99): 6.1 g (RDX)
MG/FF (20 x 82): 3.7g (PETN)
MG/FF-M (20 x 80M): 20 g (PETN)
Hispano: (20 x 110): 6.1g (SAPI) to 10.4 g (HEI)
MG151/15 (15 x 96): 28.g
MG151/20: (20 x 82) 3.8g (HEI) to 18-19.8 g (Minengeschoss) (PETN)

Tully__
09-07-2009, 03:10 AM
While the information exchange is great, the chances of the information making its way to the developer from here is very low.

Have you posted this in the 1C forums for IL2? I believe Oleg or members of his team still maintain a presence there. Be prepared to cite exact original sources if you expect to be taken seriously.

horseback
09-07-2009, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Terrenceflynn:
Mortoma,

You mentioned the KI-43III. It was the definitive version, with fuel tank protection, a great engine, armor for pilot and all kinks worked out of the 12.7. The KI-43II was close to this, the armor plate did not come until production number 5919, mid way through. The explosive ammo explains why the Japanes stuck with only two guns and made it work.

Thanks,
Terry Unfortunately, the Japanese stuck with the lighter armament because it was lighter; the lightly built and low powered Hayabusa couldn't carry more or heavier guns without a severe loss of performance, and the Ki-43 was already borderline in terms of top speed.

As for 'making it work', my reading leads me to believe that the average Japanese fighter pilot had no clue how much damage he was really doing 75-80% of the time. While British, German, Soviet and US fighter pilots started the war overclaiming at a 6 or 7 to one clip (claiming 6, actually destroying one), they all gradually improved to something close to a 7:5 ratio.

The Japanese appear to have never gotten better than 5:2, and most historians will discount all but a few Japanese aces' claims quite severely.

Allied, Soviet and German intelligence officers attempted to glean a realistic picture of what was actually happening in combat by cross comparing pilot reports to each other and to outside reports of enemy losses, and helped their commanders develop a true appreciation of what was actually happening. This sort of critical process taught the pilots to be more observant and realistic themselves, and led to less optimistic claims more in keeping with enemy postwar casualty figures.

The Japanese commanders appear to have taken their pilots' reports as Gospel, and often made disastrous decisions as a result.

Part of the reason that your Oscar doesn't score as readily in-game is the way HMGs are discounted in terms of cumulative structural damage, or incendiary effect. It's a DM thing.

cheers

horseback

Terrenceflynn
09-08-2009, 08:09 PM
Limited examples of other versions of the Ki 43-I were found. However, even if these aircraft were produced with two 7.7mm or two 12.7mm guns and not modified in the field, their serial numbers are out of sequence with the commonly accepted history of this aircraft. The production sequence: A (2x7.7) -B (1x7.7 and 1x12.7) - C (2x12.7) clearly did not occur.

Based on the evidence marshaled in this study (which admittedly does not take into account all units equipped with this aircraft much less present direct evidence as to each aircraft) the main operational version of the Ki 43-I was equipped with one 7.7mm machine gun and one 12.7mm machine cannon. This version was in operation in Indo-China and Malaya early in the War; in Burma in late 1942; and, in the Southeast Area from late 1942 to mid-1943. A captured aircraft in China confirms the version with two 12.7mm machine cannon but reinforces the impression that this configuration was limited to a small number of early production aircraft. While versions with two 7.7mm machine guns existed, they were likely retrofitted aircraft relegated to non-combat roles.

Terrenceflynn
09-08-2009, 08:16 PM
Evidence in books and on the web suggest otherwise. Yes there were HO-103 issues on the KI-43I models. For the KI-43II and KI-43III they were fixed, rof was up, and again the explosive ammo hit like a 20mm round. This explains the many B-24 and P-47 shoot downs in Burma, and also B-17. The special ammo made a lightly armed plane very deadly. There have been two in depth articles now on this subject, as well as the books KI043 Aces of WW2 and IJAAF Aces of WW2. There was parity in Burma/China 1942-1944, the high kill scores of the IJAAF have been verified. Hopefully in future games the KI-43 will be better represented. It had the armor and self sealing tanks the Zero never had until the end. The other catch I had was that the KI-43II in the IL2 game actually has the KI-43III cowling and exhaust piping. Check it out.




Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
The 12.7 x 81 cartridge wasn't particularly a powerful round, particularly not compared to the US M2 Browning (12.7 x 99) and Russian UB (12.7 x 108).


The Ho-103 also had severe issues with synchronisation when firing through a propeller, dropping the rate of fire to around 400 rpm.

Also

The explosive round really wasn't that effective, certainly no more so than opposing HMGs.To the best of my knowledge, the 12.7mm HE projectile used in the Japanese 12.7 x 81 contained just 0.8g of Penthrite wax (PETN) in a 38 g cartridge.

Compare this to real cannon rounds of the period and the Ho-103 comes off very poorly indeed:

SHVaK (20 x 99): 6.1 g (RDX)
MG/FF (20 x 82): 3.7g (PETN)
MG/FF-M (20 x 80M): 20 g (PETN)
Hispano: (20 x 110): 6.1g (SAPI) to 10.4 g (HEI)
MG151/15 (15 x 96): 28.g
MG151/20: (20 x 82) 3.8g (HEI) to 18-19.8 g (Minengeschoss) (PETN)

Terrenceflynn
09-08-2009, 08:19 PM
How do I get to the 1C forums???

Waldo.Pepper
09-08-2009, 08:39 PM
and again the explosive ammo hit like a 20mm round.

I'd like to know who/what you source for this is. Can you provide a link or better yet a book reference?

Cause I've never seen anything that suggests this. On p 56 of the book Japanese Infantry Weapons of WW2, the short cased 12.7mm type 1 round is described as inferior to the US .5 M2 round.

Here is page 90 of the same book by George Markham. Nothing special about the ammo.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/book/09-08-2009073713PM2.jpg

ImpStarDuece
09-08-2009, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by Terrenceflynn:
Evidence in books and on the web suggest otherwise. Yes there were HO-103 issues on the KI-43I models. For the KI-43II and KI-43III they were fixed, rof was up, and again the explosive ammo hit like a 20mm round.

Could you cite some of this evidence?

I consider myself reasonably well versed in both the history of the IJA and WW2 aircraft weapons, and this is the first time I have read or heard anything to suggest this.

The only technical histories of the Ki-43 and its armament I have read have been on Jaircraft.com. There is precious little elsewhere.

I fail to understand how a 34-36 gram projectile can hit like a 90-145 gram 20 mm shell. Even if the Japanese used thin walled type rounds (highly unlikely, given the caliber), the maximum CTW ratio of these fwas up around 8%, meaning a maximum HE filler of about 3 grams, still less than the worst 20 mm HE shells.

A Minengeschoss type round (with a theoretical CTW of about 20%) might theoretically give the Ho-103 round performance similar to an MG FF or Oerlikon 20 mm HEI round. However, there is no evidence of the Japanese employing these round types, even with larger cannon shells. Again, the relatively small calibre of the 12.7 x 81 mm round makes this highly unlikely. Even the Luftwaffe didn't both making a Minengeschoss type round for their relatively anemic MG131.

As to the RoF: given that the Ho 103 was a essentially just a scaled down M2 Browning (firing Breda pattern ammunition, itself based on Vickers ammunition), I doubt that the synchronization issues with the gun allowed better than 400-500 rpm.


This explains the many B-24 and P-47 shoot downs in Burma, and also B-17. The special ammo made a lightly armed plane very deadly.

Many is a relative term here. Heavy bomber losses (B-17, B-24) in the CBI were very actually quite limited, just 140 in four years, of which only 44 were attributed to fighters (2 in 1942, 30 in 1943 and 12 in 1944). Given that the Ki-44, Ki-45 and Ki-61 were operational in the theater, I doubt we can ascribe all heavy bomber kills to the Ki-43.

The Japanese obviously did not consider the Ki-43 armament (typically 1 Type 99 7.7 mm and one Ho-103 12.7 mm) satisfactory, otherwise they would not of attempted to fit 2 Ho-5 20mm cannon in the cowling for the Ki-43III, when enough power was finally available to cart around the extra weight.

Other Japanese fighters mounted 4 HMGs or 2 HMGs and 2 20mms, even 4 20mms by late 1944, so clearly there was a requirement for more firepower.

EDIT for clarity

Waldo.Pepper
09-08-2009, 11:33 PM
Not wishing too much to put words in the his mouth but I think that this must be from one of the articles at J-Aircraft.com that Terrenceflynn made mention of.

"Ammunition belting for the 12.7mm cannon was described as almost entirely explosive and from reports of hits on Allied armor its penetrative power seemed poor"

http://www.j-aircraft.com/rese...nakajima_ki43arm.htm (http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/nakajima_ki43arm.htm)

To my ears this is hardly hits like a 20mm. I do hope that Terrenceflynn returns with more.

FWIW the J-aircraft.com is reasonably persuasive as the the fiction of the prevailing common understanding on the evolution of the armament of the Ki-43. Particularly the part which references the armorers manual and the interchangeability of the 7.7 and 12.7mm weapons.

Terrenceflynn
09-09-2009, 09:06 PM
NOTES
1. Production data for the Ki 43-I cited in this report will follow those given by Long (RESEARCH REPORT, Japanese Army Type 1 Fighter (Ki 43) Record of Production, 1995) kindly provided by Mr. James I. Long. These are consistent with, but more detailed than, material collected by the United States Strategic Bombing Survey (USSBS Report, Pacific War, No. 17, pp.40-41) and figures published in Windrow and Francillon, "The Ki 43 Hayabusa" in Aircraft in Profile, vol. 2 (p.264).

2. The 59th and 64th FRs were equipped with this aircraft on December 8, 1941. The 59th at Konpong Trach, Indo-China, had an operational strength of 21 Type 1 fighters and three Type 97 fighters. The 64th at Duong **** had 35 Type 1 fighters and six Type 97 fighters according to Japanese Monograph No. 55, Southwest Area Air Operations, Phase 1, (November 1941-February 1942), and p.6. A relatively recent book (1992) Shores, Cull and Izawa, Bloody Shambles vol.1, p.52, generally agrees with these figures but credits the 59th with 24 Type 1 fighters and does not mention any Type 97 fighters. The author of this paper suspects the monograph is correct, with all due respect to Messers. Shore, Cull and Izawa. Long (note 1) gives production to the end of November 1941 as 114 aircraft (Nos. 114-227) so fifty-six operational aircraft would equate to almost exactly one half of total production to that point. Since several aircraft had been lost in accidents (notably wing failures) this represented an even greater proportion of existing aircraft. The 64th began to receive the type in August 1941 when less than forty had been produced.

3. See for example, "The Nakajima Hayabusa", in Green, Famous Fighters of the Second World War pp.77-78 where it is stated "...receiving the designation Type 1 Fighter, Model 1A (Ki. 43-1a)*** The Model 1A variant of the Hayabusa carried an armament of two 7.7mm machine guns...The Model 1A was rapidly supplanted on the assembly line at Ota by the Model 1B (Ki 43-1b) in which a 12.7mm Ho 103 machine gun similar to the Colt-Browning, supplanted one of the 7.7mm weapons, while the Model 1C, the first large-scale production version of the Hayabusa, carried an armament of two 12.7mm guns." This was repeated in Green, War Planes of the Second World War-Fighters, vol. 3. Windrow and Francillon (note 1, op. cit.) are to the same effect and state, "The first mass production version was the Ki.43-1c with two 12.7mm guns..."(p.256). The same thing is stated in Taylor, Combat Aircraft of the World, p. 261. These were all published in the early to late 1960's. No sources are cited but they may be following information contained in General View of Japanese Military Aircraft in the Pacific War, p.17 (first published in Japanese in 1953 and English in 1956). Similar information is found in more recent books. Sakaida in the 1997, Japanese Army Air Force Aces 1937-1945, apparently adopts this view (pp.18 and 53) and specifically states that the 11th FR in New Guinea was equipped with the Ki 43-1hei (p.53). For a current internet website which apparently adopts this convention see, Joe Baugher's Hayabusa Files, (visited August 15, 2001, originally posted 1995). One recent author who does not follow the convention (but is clearly wrong) is Bergerud, Fire in the Sky, p.221, where the Oscar is described as going from two 7.7mm guns to two 13mm guns with no mention of the mixed armament!

4. "Type 1 Fighter" undated handbook containing a description of the construction, assembly, maintenance and method of operation. Captured at Lae, New Guinea, September 1943. Allied Translator and Interpreter Section (ATIS), Southwest Pacific Area (SWPA). Enemy Publication No.91, pp.33-35, 67.

5. ibid., p.5

6. "Armorers' Manual: Reconnaissance Planes, Fighters, Light Bombers", undated mimeographed booklet issue by 8th Air Training Unit. Item 4 (No. 15568), ATIS Bulletin 1561 (though undated, internal evidence establishes its date as mid-1942).

7. Izawa, "64th Flying Sentai, pt.2", Aero Album (Fall 1971), p.2, reissued as "Combat Diary of the 64th Sentai", Air Classics (August 1972), p.38. The only aircraft serial number I have identified with these units is Ki 43 No. 206 (production date November 1941). The wreck of this aircraft was found near Kuala Lumpur, Malaya. Likely it is the aircraft of Lt. Tadao Takayama, a chutai leader in the 64th FR (see Shores, et al, note 2 at p.114).

8. Japanese Monograph No. 31, Southern Area Air Operations Record, December 1941-August 1945 (Army) (unpublished), p.5

9. Southwest Area Air Operations (note 1), chart 1, following p.104.

10. Japanese Monograph No. 69, Java-Sumatra Area Air Operations Record, December 1941-March 1942, p.102. The figures for machine gun and cannon ammunition for the 59th (39%) slightly exceeds the ratio of the ammunition load of the aircraft of the aircraft when fitted with mixed armament, which was 500 rounds 7.7mm and 270 rounds 12.7mm (note 4) or a 35% ratio. The ratio for the 64th shows they used nearly twice as much machine cannon ammunition as machine gun ammunition. Moreover, Japanese Monograph No. 65, Southeast Area Air Operations, Phase III, July 1944-August 1945, discussing ammunition shortages makes this statement: "In the early stage of the war the airplanes were equipped mainly with 7.7mm and 7.9mm machine guns and only the Hayabusa fighter planes were equipped with one 12.7mm gun." p.46. Hiroshi Ichimura (relying on information from 64th FR pilot Yo****a Yasuda) directly states that the 64th FR's aircraft mounted one 7.7mm and one 12.7mm gun. See footnote 26. Since the first version of this article (posted on the j-aircraft.com website) additional data on ammunition expenditure has come to light. This shows the 64th expended seven times as much machine cannon ammunition as machine gun ammunition in the first month of the war while the 59th expended only slightly more machine gun ammunition than machine cannon ammunition during the same period. Comparing this data with expenditures for the longer period clearly suggests a number of twin 12.7mm armed fighters were in use by both units during the first month of the war but that number rapidly declined in the succeeding two months either by aircraft being replaced or re-armed. Table C, Airplanes Used and Expenditures of Fuel and Ammunition, Selected Materials on Line of Communication Staff Duties (PACMIRS Special Translation No. 3).

11. Air Headquarters India, Weekly Intelligence Summary No.43, Nov. 11, 1942, p.4. According to Izawa, the 64th had sent pilots to Japan during the rainy season (June-October) to re-equip with new aircraft. The new aircraft arrived at Singapore during September and, despite losses en route, raised the Regiment's operational strength from 15 to 30 aircraft (note 7, p.6). Wrecks recovered in Bengal in December 1942 include Ki 43s No. 422 (April 1942) and 721 (October 1942).

12. Examples of this include the 64th contributing eight pilots to the Southeast Area (note 7, p.6) and 24th FR markings that were found painted over on 12th FB aircraft captured at Munda ("Munda Ki 43's PIC " posted by James F. Lansdale, at http://j-aircraft.com/, visited April 11, 2001, citing captured Enemy Aircraft Report No. 17, with an illustration of a sketch of tail markings of Ki 43 No.493). The author has since obtained the same information from documents in the National Archives.

13. Situation Report, 12th FB Headquarters, as of 31 December 1942; and notes found with operational reports for January 1943 (digest of translation), Fourteenth Air Force Language Officer.

14. Letter from Technician Yamanaka to Commanding Officer Funayama (14th Field Air Repair Depot), dated March 12, 1943. Item 1 (No. 11974) ATIS Bulletin No. 1174. The Akitsu Maru delivered thirty replacement Ki 43s to Truk on 31 December 1942 (Training Flying Brigade Operations Order No. 8, item 2, (No. 13531) ATIS Bulletin No. 1329). These had apparently already been delivered to Rabaul in a "first transportation" referred to in Yamanaka's letter as already having occurred. The remaining aircraft had been delivered by two aircraft carriers and by a second trip by Akitsu Maru on 23 February 1943.

15. With regard to ammunition supply see Japanese Monograph No. 127, Southeast Area Operations Record, Part IV, appended sheet 5. Regarding the Munda Oscars see Headquarters, U.S. Army Air Forces, Directorate of Intelligence, Technical Intelligence Report No. 169, 21 August 1943.

16. List of Airfields Used and Ammunition and Fuel Expended (note 13).

17. Note 15, T.I.R. No.169, p.3.

18. "Inspection Report of Fuselage, Engine, and Propellor", No. 2 Chutai, 31 December 1942, ATIS Bulletin No. 311.

19. Captured Enemy Aircraft Report, No.17

19a. HQ AAF, SWPA Intelligence Summary No. 184.

20. Prior to July 1942 the only Ki 43 equipped unit in China was the 10th Independent Air Squadron based at Hankou, Japanese Monograph No. 76, Air Operations in the China Area July 1937-August 1945, p.110. Apparently this unit only received its Ki 43's in May 1942 while temporarily in Japan. Molesworth, Sharks Over China, p.35 reports a Ki 43 captured near Kweilin but dates the incident about August 1st. A SWPA intelligence report (note 21, A.I.B. no.23) states such an aircraft was captured on May 1st. W.O. Tadashi Kawazoe who was attached to the 1st Yasen Hoju Hikotai flew this aircraft. Kawazoe became a prisoner of war (information from Hiroshi Ichimura but also stated in the Japanese language edition of Hata&Izawa, Japanese Army Air Force Fighter Units and Their Aces, Eng. Ed., Grubb Street, 2002). Ford, The Flying Tigers, p.364 suggests Ki 43's of the 10th were not encountered by the A.V.G. until July 1942. (It is interesting to note here that Ford also says that the 64th re-equipped with Ki 43-II's after the Java campaign and flew against the A.V.G. with them. He also states that the two 12.7mm guns were exchanged for the mixed armament at Chiang Mai, Thailand because "they were so slow."(p.282). What Ford suggests about the Type 1 fighter model II is not only not supported by Izawa but also impossible. Only four experimental Ki 43-II's had been completed by April 1942). Most likely P-5017 is the single Ki. 43-1 captured intact in 1942. Its production date was determined to be December 16th, 1941 (Pro Forma "C" [crash report], Fourteenth Air Force May 16, 1943) this would place it among the first one hundred fifty production Type 1 fighters. Finally, with regard to Ford's stated rationale for the change from two 12.7mm guns to the mixed armament see the text-accompanying footnote 26.

21. Pro Forma "C" foot note 20. Similar information is found in HQ USAFISPA, Air Information Bulletin No.23, 12 August 1943, reproducing information found in HQ AAF, SWPA Intelligence Summary No. 126.

22. Pro Forma Reports, 30 December 1943, regarding Oscars Nos. 776. 804 and 808 (in Technical Intelligence Report No. 220, Allied Air Forces SWPA). Remarking on the twin 7.7mm armament, an intelligence report says: "...this combination is the exception rather than the rule." HQ AAF, SWPA Intelligence Summary No. 176.

23. Operations Orders and documents related to the 14th Field Air Repair Depot, item 2 (No. 12521), ATIS Bulletin No. 1194 (chart 5 shows flight records for August 1943 indicating Type 1 fighter No. 793 engaged in test and liaison flights during the month). Ki 43 No. 750 was found damaged but potentially flyable after the War. It was reportedly in use long after 12th FB left the area (Wallis, "The Story of Nakajima Ki. 43-I No. 750 (Oscar)").

24. Hata & Izawa (note 20), p. 114. The 11th FR returned to Japan in June 1943 and the 1st FR returned in August 1943. (Japanese Monograph No. 32, Southeast Area Air Operations, Chart 2.) Their remaining aircraft would then have been available for the purposes indicated. The crash reports on the Cape Gloucester aircraft (note 22) are far from complete as indicated in the author's "Tuluvu's Air War" (posted as a research article on the j-aircraft.com website) and the report on the Madang aircraft is a brief (but specific) reference in an intelligence summary. Photographic evidence of a Type 1 model 1 fighter (two bladed prop) at Wewak exists as late as October 1943 and as indicated in note 23 one remained in relatively good condition at Rabaul until the end of the war. The author does not claim certainty in this matter but suggests this as a likely explanation of an otherwise anomalous situation.

25. Figures for production of the 12.7mm fixed machine cannon (if accurate) show a rapid acceleration from fiscal 1942 to fiscal 1943, Table 13, USSBS Reports, Pacific War, No. 45. The same table shows production of the 7.7mm fixed machine gun declined from fiscal 1942 to fiscal 1943.

26. Hiroshi Ichimura messages of 11 and 12 December 2001, Warbirds Forum, http://forums.delphiforums.com...ls/messages/?msg+534 (http://forums.delphiforums.com/annals/messages/?msg+534). In addition to the unreliability of the early versions of the 12.7mm gun, it may also be that they were initially not available in sufficient quantity to equip all aircraft coming off the production lines. However, available data (see footnote 25) is not sufficiently detailed to support this conclusion (the table cited shows no 12.7mm machine cannon production in fiscal year 1941, April 41-April 43, suggesting the table is in error or the weapons fabricated at that time were still considered experimental and not "production" models.

Waldo.Pepper
09-09-2009, 09:10 PM
Terrence where EXACTLY did you find evidence of this.


and again the explosive ammo hit like a 20mm round. This explains the many B-24 and P-47 shoot downs in Burma, and also B-17. The special ammo made a lightly armed plane very deadly.

Terrenceflynn
09-09-2009, 09:20 PM
Looks like explosive is mentioned near the bottom. I defer to actual 64th Sentai Pilots who have validated this ammo, stating to effect "Our pilots like the effect of the ammo on the target". The 64th shot down many B24s and B17s, and the explosive ammo made it possible. If you can imagine an explosive round every third spot and then ball and tracer, I can see it all working, talking out loud. It is not true that the KI-43 I wa so light it could not carry 12.7 mm guns.


Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and again the explosive ammo hit like a 20mm round.

I'd like to know who/what you source for this is. Can you provide a link or better yet a book reference?

Cause I've never seen anything that suggests this. On p 56 of the book Japanese Infantry Weapons of WW2, the short cased 12.7mm type 1 round is described as inferior to the US .5 M2 round.

Here is page 90 of the same book by George Markham. Nothing special about the ammo.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/book/09-08-2009073713PM2.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Terrenceflynn
09-09-2009, 09:31 PM
Actually, patroling Ki-43s traveling in 10 ship formatiosn would often catch B-24s on intradiction missions and knock them down. Actually, in Burma there hardle any KI-44s, and the Ki-61 had many problems. The vast majority of 64th Sentai kills can be attributed to Ki\I-43s. A captured B17 had been used to train pilots in head on attacks. Her are the books:

Oscar Aces of WW2

IJAAF Aces of WW2

A lot of what was written about the KI-43 needs to be updated. Again the KI-43 was a huge fix, the KI-43III was ironed out completely.

Waldo.Pepper
09-09-2009, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by Terrenceflynn:
"Our pilots like the effect of the ammo on the target".

This is not proof that it hits like a 20mm. This is proof that Japanese pilots like the effect of a 12.7mm Machine Cannon (in Japanese parlance.) in comparison to their 7.7 which they had before.

I ask YET again for proof that the 12.7mm hits like a 20mm. (Your statement is preposterous without proof! So where is it for the third time!


Originally posted by Terrenceflynn:
If you can imagine an explosive round every third spot and then ball and tracer, I can see it all working,

This is DIRECTLY refuted by a source on J-aircraft.com which states that all ammo was explosive.


Originally posted by Terrenceflynn:
It is not true that the KI-43 I wa so light it could not carry 12.7 mm guns.

No one is suggesting otherwise. So why are you bothering to make this point. No one has said that the Ki-43 cannot carry Unicorns either. So perhaps it can. But until someone says that it cannot ... see my point?


Originally posted by Terrenceflynn:
The 64th shot down many B24s and B17s, and the explosive ammo made it possible.

Where it is proven that the explosive ammo made it possible? (As opposed to other reasons/factors.)

JtD
09-09-2009, 10:29 PM
"Hits like a 20mm round" in that the projectile exploded, yes. "Hits like a 20mm round" in that it caused the same effect, no.

The Germans used explosive 13mm ammo, too.

Waldo.Pepper
09-09-2009, 10:45 PM
in that the projectile exploded

If only that was all he was trying to suggest. I think he is trying to suggest it blasts 4 engine heavies out of the air like a P-51 shreds Tigers. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Japanese snipers used rounds in their Arisakas which exploded. However, they were not very effective either!

Terrenceflynn
02-15-2010, 05:38 PM
The 12.7mm HE projectile used in the IJA's Ho-103 contained 0.8g of Penthrite wax. The 20mm HE shells used in the Navy's Type 99s contained between 5g (with tracer) and 10g (without) of Pentolite.

Combat tends to confirm intelligence reports that state that the Hayabusa's machine cannon, though having poor penetrative powers, had significant explosive effect. A Type 1 fighter that he identified as a ZEKE hit 1 st Lt. Roy Klanrud a P-40 pilot of the 35 th FS. According to Klanrud: “I knew I was badly shot up…I expected another attack which would have been fatal because my elevator and coolant was shot up by a 20mm cannon. Three bullets hit my armor plate and glanced off, clearing out the glass of the canopy on the left side.” More than one American fighter pilot hit by 12.7mm explosive rounds thought he had been hit by the larger 20mm round fired by the Japanese Navy's Zero fighter. A partial explanation for this phenomenon is suggested by findings of Britain's Ordnance Board that tested Japanese army 12.7mm ammunition. A 1944 report said: “The fuse of the H.E./I. [high explosive/incendiary] shell is probably too sensitive for optimum performance.” In tests in India the same type ammunition failed to ignite fuel in a partially filled petrol tin, it was thought because “the blast effect was such that any possibility of petrol or petrol vapour being set on fire was nullified because of this.” Another report concluded the super-sensitive fuse was likely to explode against an aircraft's wing or fuselage skin before penetrating to a fuel tank. Japanese armor piercing ammunition was found to be effective against certain types of Allied armor at least at close ranges on the order of 100 yards.

http://www.j-aircraft.com/rese...nn/248th/248th-2.htm (http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/248th/248th-2.htm)

http://www.j-aircraft.com/faq/jaaf_vs_jnaf.htm

ImpStarDuece
02-15-2010, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Terrenceflynn:
The 12.7mm HE projectile used in the IJA's Ho-103 contained 0.8g of Penthrite wax. The 20mm HE shells used in the Navy's Type 99s contained between 5g (with tracer) and 10g (without) of Pentolite.

Combat tends to confirm intelligence reports that state that the Hayabusa's machine cannon, though having poor penetrative powers, had significant explosive effect. A Type 1 fighter that he identified as a ZEKE hit 1 st Lt. Roy Klanrud a P-40 pilot of the 35 th FS. According to Klanrud: “I knew I was badly shot up…I expected another attack which would have been fatal because my elevator and coolant was shot up by a 20mm cannon. Three bullets hit my armor plate and glanced off, clearing out the glass of the canopy on the left side.” More than one American fighter pilot hit by 12.7mm explosive rounds thought he had been hit by the larger 20mm round fired by the Japanese Navy's Zero fighter. A partial explanation for this phenomenon is suggested by findings of Britain's Ordnance Board that tested Japanese army 12.7mm ammunition. A 1944 report said: “The fuse of the H.E./I. [high explosive/incendiary] shell is probably too sensitive for optimum performance.” In tests in India the same type ammunition failed to ignite fuel in a partially filled petrol tin, it was thought because “the blast effect was such that any possibility of petrol or petrol vapour being set on fire was nullified because of this.” Another report concluded the super-sensitive fuse was likely to explode against an aircraft's wing or fuselage skin before penetrating to a fuel tank. Japanese armor piercing ammunition was found to be effective against certain types of Allied armor at least at close ranges on the order of 100 yards.

http://www.j-aircraft.com/rese...nn/248th/248th-2.htm (http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/248th/248th-2.htm)

http://www.j-aircraft.com/faq/jaaf_vs_jnaf.htm

Truth through repetition?

The Ho 103 did not hit as hard as a 20 mm. Unless you can provide quantifiable evidence to the contract, no matter how many times you repeat this spurious fact, it will remain a fallacy.

0.8 g of PETN is about one seventh the HE content of the worst wartime dedicated 20mm HE round, the somewhat lackluster (but very aerodynamically efficent) ShVAK HE/I round.

Even the 20mm AP/I rounds had more HE filler.

Romanator21
02-15-2010, 06:19 PM
I thought that the Ki-43 II had 12.7 mm while the Ki-43 III had 20 mm cannon. I would imagine that would be impossible for an allied pilot to know the difference between the two planes and would probably imagine he was still being hit by the old 12.7 mm ammunition.

I really doubt that 12.7 can ever be as effective as 20 mm ammo unless the 20 mm ammo is a joke.

LEBillfish
02-15-2010, 06:30 PM
You must be kidding me.....This is the 4th instalment of this very same topic by the very same person each time generously proved out in detail he is wrong....

Don't feed the Trolls......Walk away.

K2

M_Gunz
02-15-2010, 06:53 PM
Typical Troll thread. They always wait a few months after getting nowhere to start the SOS again.

Started: Terrenceflynn Posted Sun September 06 2009 20:55

Restarted: Terrenceflynn Posted Mon February 15 2010 16:38

I blame the parents. Raise the kid right or have a hunting accident, the world would be a better place.

VW-IceFire
02-15-2010, 10:11 PM
You know the last time we had this conversation I went in the QMB, setup a flight of B-24s and attacked them in a Ki-43-II. I lit the first one on fire and it went down a few minutes later... that was the head on pass. I managed to get two more critically damaged before one of their gunners got a shot on me.

I have no trouble believing that a few machine gun bullets in the right spot will bring down even the biggest of bombers. Especially if a co-ordinated head on attack is made. Certainly it is more than possible in IL-2!

LEBillfish
02-15-2010, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
You know the last time we had this conversation I went in the QMB, setup a flight of B-24s and attacked them in a Ki-43-II. I lit the first one on fire and it went down a few minutes later... that was the head on pass. I managed to get two more critically damaged before one of their gunners got a shot on me.

I have no trouble believing that a few machine gun bullets in the right spot will bring down even the biggest of bombers. Especially if a co-ordinated head on attack is made. Certainly it is more than possible in IL-2!

Rgr that.......Coy of the 78th made a mission wherein it is Ki-43's vs. B-24's and my best to date being very conservative with my flying hitting only unscathed aircraft is 4 B-24.....4, four, 1+1+1+1, 1x4, 2x2, 4+0, 4x1.....and then RTB'd.

That's with 2xHo-103 12.7mm guns....and of late I've been killing P-47's, F4U, and Hellcats, all very heavily armored in equal numbers.

Ki-43 guns are fine, if they were any better they'd be uber.

K2