PDA

View Full Version : Valkyrie Needs Further Changes



jortakk
06-04-2019, 01:44 PM
Opinion on the Valkyrie Rework:
She has a solid foundation, but what was given to her doesn't really mesh well together.

Problems:
- Her heavy/shield crush mixup can be dodged on one timing to avoid both options as well as allow for you to counter guard break (I don't mind this being the case as long as the following changes are made, since it can give her a semi-safe way to enter her chain lights against certain opponents)
- Her chain lights don't offer any pressure as you can just block top and react to the side attacks
- She has abysmal damage
- What is iconic to her (the idea of her sweep/gb mixup) doesn't actually work, as the gb comes out far too late to catch dodges, and the sweep is reactable at 600ms. The sweep also has horrid recovery, allowing for a guaranteed gb from an oos opponent who dodged it.

Proposed Changes:
Light Attacks:
Chain Top Light Attack speed decreased to 500ms (from 400ms), damage increased to 16 (from 13, a higher damage option when you hit with the Shield Crush)
Chain Side Light Attack speed increased to 400ms (from 500ms), damage increased to 14 (from 13, gives her decent pressure in chain)
Finisher Top Light Attack speed decreased to 500ms (from 400ms), damage increased to 18 (from 12)
Finisher Side Light Attack damage increased to 13 (from 12)

Heavy Attacks:
Basic Heavy Attack damage increased to 26 (from 24, my god why was it 24. 24 is LIGHT attack damage for some characters. Not saying that there should be 24 damage for a light attack, just that her basic heavy attack damage is irrefutably too low)
Finisher Heavy Attacks now have hyperarmour from 600-800ms (gives her some use for her finisher heavies in team fights instead of sweep, similar to raider/kensei)

Spear Sweep:
Speed increased to 500ms (from 600ms, so its an actual mixup)
Only knocks down one opponent, and not allies (not as annoying for teammates, makes it a bit more fair for the enemy)
Input changed to Down + Guard Break (from Guard Break, that way you can actually change it up between sweep and gb, rather than the two moves being from the same button)
Recovery reduced to only allow a guaranteed Guard Break from a non-out-of-stamina opponent if dodged correctly (so it isn't as easily punished, but still gives a fair reward for dodging correctly)

Spear Sweep Punish:
Damage reduced to 32 (from 35, because it would actually work now)

Shield Tackle:
Backwards movement distance decreased
Delay between back dodge and stance increased enough to allow a GB to connect if predicted correctly.
Now can cancel into a side or forward dodge
Return the knockdown (high risk high reward counter ability now with suitable counterplay options, as well as additional flow from the move)

UbiInsulin
06-04-2019, 06:48 PM
Thank you for this, jortakk. I think you did a great job of explaining your rationale for all the proposed changes. :)

Sneakly20
06-04-2019, 07:58 PM
Opinion on the Valkyrie Rework:
She has a solid foundation, but what was given to her doesn't really mesh well together.

Problems:
- Her heavy/shield crush mixup can be dodged on one timing to avoid both options as well as allow for you to counter guard break (I don't mind this being the case as long as the following changes are made, since it can give her a semi-safe way to enter her chain lights against certain opponents)
- Her chain lights don't offer any pressure as you can just block top and react to the side attacks
- She has abysmal damage
- What is iconic to her (the idea of her sweep/gb mixup) doesn't actually work, as the gb comes out far too late to catch dodges, and the sweep is reactable at 600ms. The sweep also has horrid recovery, allowing for a guaranteed gb from an oos opponent who dodged it.

Proposed Changes:
Light Attacks:
Chain Top Light Attack speed decreased to 500ms (from 400ms), damage increased to 16 (from 13, a higher damage option when you hit with the Shield Crush)
Chain Side Light Attack speed increased to 400ms (from 500ms), damage increased to 14 (from 13, gives her decent pressure in chain)
Finisher Top Light Attack speed decreased to 500ms (from 400ms), damage increased to 18 (from 12)
Finisher Side Light Attack damage increased to 13 (from 12)

Heavy Attacks:
Basic Heavy Attack damage increased to 26 (from 24, my god why was it 24. 24 is LIGHT attack damage for some characters. Not saying that there should be 24 damage for a light attack, just that her basic heavy attack damage is irrefutably too low)
Finisher Heavy Attacks now have hyperarmour from 600-800ms (gives her some use for her finisher heavies in team fights instead of sweep, similar to raider/kensei)

Spear Sweep:
Speed increased to 500ms (from 600ms, so its an actual mixup)
Only knocks down one opponent, and not allies (not as annoying for teammates, makes it a bit more fair for the enemy)
Input changed to Down + Guard Break (from Guard Break, that way you can actually change it up between sweep and gb, rather than the two moves being from the same button)
Recovery reduced to only allow a guaranteed Guard Break from a non-out-of-stamina opponent if dodged correctly (so it isn't as easily punished, but still gives a fair reward for dodging correctly)

Spear Sweep Punish:
Damage reduced to 32 (from 35, because it would actually work now)

Shield Tackle:
Backwards movement distance decreased
Delay between back dodge and stance increased enough to allow a GB to connect if predicted correctly.
Now can cancel into a dodge
Return the knockdown (high risk high reward counter ability now with suitable counterplay options, as well as additional flow from the move)

You can go father with damage. Perhaps 28 on heavies.

Lights can go 15 -14 - 18
Probably benefit from just having a 400ms mid chain anyway. But if we want to avoid that then we can stay with yours.

Finisher lights can be 18 all 500ms. However perhaps she uses shield on top now so it stuns and moves them on hit similar to side finisher lights currently. Left pushes right, right pushes left as it is now, and top pushes away. All of them have enhanced attack property. ( not bouncing off block)

Iím not sure about hyper armor on finisher heavies. Perhaps undodgeable? Dunno how that would affect shield crush. She doesnít really fit the hyper armor stick. Maybe just speed up her chain heavies?

The sweep is something weíll have to work with. We have attacks that do more or same damage with less recovery. But again we can work on recovery.

I like the idea of single target. Knocking down teammates was a balancing act but itís really not worth it. Leave damage at 35. Donít lower it for the sake a move that works.

I would leave shield tackle alone for now. Or at least keep the distancing it has. Can give it dodge. I donít know if itís worth the knockdown anymore currently. Sure it was cool but probably not needed anymore other than team fights.

MCBooma16
06-04-2019, 10:02 PM
I like these ideas quite a bit. I do feel these changes could make for some exciting gameplay.

Slightly increasing heavy and light damage values, along with changes to some speed values aren't bad ideas. Making the sweep an actual mixup would be good.

I think Right Analog Down + GB input would be awkward; I think the old original input of Right Analog Down + Heavy would be less clunky, that way you don't have to take your hand away from your attacking buttons lest you want to finish with a heavy or light.

I also think the back dodge to AB Shield Tackle changes are iffy. The time it takes to enter AB stance and THEN charge is too slow to do anything from back dodging a light, and increasing that delay PLUS decreasing the distance covered from the back dodge will make it very risky.

The good news is it will probably be easier to access in ganks, because then Valkyrie will actually have some merit and pressure; she'll have a tool to help out and get some damage in so she can't be almost completely shut out by external blocking. The problem I see is she'll be more easily caught by heavy feints to GB in duels and will be harder to access her back dodge to Shield tackle overall. What will the Shield Tackle guarentee once they're knocked down?

I like the idea of her Shield Tackle knocking opponents down, but I don't like the idea of the distancing or frames being nerfed, because that's not a bad defensive tool that, right now, can only guarentee a light, not to mention the initial charge is slow, too, and isn't always viable for damage.

I don't think Valkyrie needs HA on finishing heavies. I think her defensive capabilities help make up for her lack of HA, and she doesn't have the most health ever to trade necessarily.

Velentix
06-05-2019, 02:24 AM
I personally wouldnt want to add the knock down back in on her shield tackle, I'd rather it had the full block restored with the cancel to light. Her third heavy I would give undodgeable. Any damage buff for heavies I'll take at this point.

Siegfried-Z
06-05-2019, 02:55 AM
Opinion on the Valkyrie Rework:
She has a solid foundation, but what was given to her doesn't really mesh well together.

Problems:
- Her heavy/shield crush mixup can be dodged on one timing to avoid both options as well as allow for you to counter guard break (I don't mind this being the case as long as the following changes are made, since it can give her a semi-safe way to enter her chain lights against certain opponents)
- Her chain lights don't offer any pressure as you can just block top and react to the side attacks
- She has abysmal damage
- What is iconic to her (the idea of her sweep/gb mixup) doesn't actually work, as the gb comes out far too late to catch dodges, and the sweep is reactable at 600ms. The sweep also has horrid recovery, allowing for a guaranteed gb from an oos opponent who dodged it.

Proposed Changes:
Light Attacks:
Chain Top Light Attack speed decreased to 500ms (from 400ms), damage increased to 16 (from 13, a higher damage option when you hit with the Shield Crush)
Chain Side Light Attack speed increased to 400ms (from 500ms), damage increased to 14 (from 13, gives her decent pressure in chain)
Finisher Top Light Attack speed decreased to 500ms (from 400ms), damage increased to 18 (from 12)
Finisher Side Light Attack damage increased to 13 (from 12)

Heavy Attacks:
Basic Heavy Attack damage increased to 26 (from 24, my god why was it 24. 24 is LIGHT attack damage for some characters. Not saying that there should be 24 damage for a light attack, just that her basic heavy attack damage is irrefutably too low)
Finisher Heavy Attacks now have hyperarmour from 600-800ms (gives her some use for her finisher heavies in team fights instead of sweep, similar to raider/kensei)

Spear Sweep:
Speed increased to 500ms (from 600ms, so its an actual mixup)
Only knocks down one opponent, and not allies (not as annoying for teammates, makes it a bit more fair for the enemy)
Input changed to Down + Guard Break (from Guard Break, that way you can actually change it up between sweep and gb, rather than the two moves being from the same button)
Recovery reduced to only allow a guaranteed Guard Break from a non-out-of-stamina opponent if dodged correctly (so it isn't as easily punished, but still gives a fair reward for dodging correctly)

Spear Sweep Punish:
Damage reduced to 32 (from 35, because it would actually work now)

Shield Tackle:
Backwards movement distance decreased
Delay between back dodge and stance increased enough to allow a GB to connect if predicted correctly.
Now can cancel into a dodge
Return the knockdown (high risk high reward counter ability now with suitable counterplay options, as well as additional flow from the move)

Interesting, but :

1/ Lights attack : i would not like her side lights to become 400ms because this would increase her spam ability and this is not at all what Valk need.

Just a dmg buff on her lights would be fine from 15,13,12 to 16,15,13.

2/ 26 is still not enough. 28 should be the minimum. I would change her H dmg chain to 30,32,36.

But i would not add HA to the finisher. I can see the point to do so in terms of team fight but, de already have to much HA in the game, Valk kit doesnt need it to work. Plus, with a better sweep mix up and still the shield crush for now 15dmg or a random 36dmg finisher, it would be enough Imo.

3/I like your sweep buff proposals and then reducing the dmg to 32.
But GB+down is not an input fitting with console controler. I would just change this part.

4/ i disagree with the idea of reducing the backward distance and adding more GB vulnerability. It is already punishable by a GB and the distance is needed as a situational defense against some mooves.
I would not add back the knock down but i would choose the full block on release because this moove is very hard to perform without this last one.
I agree with the ability to Dodge out of it, this is also mandatory for shield tackle to work properly.

PS : i would add that i would like her zone to be usefull for something else than cleaning minions.

jortakk
06-05-2019, 12:32 PM
Spammability is not an issue, its giving her viable offence. Its only two 400ms attacks, the minimum needed to open people up with regular attacks.

Sure, I'm just mentioning the bear minimum boost needed for her damage. The same with heavy attacks. The issue is that her oos throw punish is actually quite high already at 65, I don't want it increased much past that.

I like to imagine valk as the ultimate hybrid, with literally a little bit of everything in her kit. Individually each ability is less than what you can get with other characters, and it comes at the expense of her hp and maybe a tiny bit in damage.

The heavies don't really need to be undodgeable as her gb would catch those attempting to dodge anyway, plus they already have pretty good tracking already.

I took the damage out of her sweep followup and put it into her heavies and lights as to not really change much in her oos throw and parry punishes as they are pretty high already.

In regards to the shield tackle, GB's do not catch it.
Watch this video: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/9avsac/demonstrating_the_strength_of_valkyries_option/
It proves that her shield tackle is way too strong on the defensive. All I want to do is move its most ridiculous defensive ability into some offence. The idea is changing it this way makes it so that all of those whiffed GB's would connect. It will still have some use defensively against parts of some mixups (kensei pommel/light, warden uncharged/charged bash, conq's regular/delayed sb), but if the enemy would decide to gb instead, they would catch them (unlike what was shown in the clip).

I don't think any unblockable has full block, top block sure, as bp and conq have those on their bashes, but not full block.

Zone would be useful with my changes as it can be cancelled into a shield crush, then if that doesn't hit, followed up with a bidirectional 400ms light.

Siegfried-Z
06-05-2019, 02:27 PM
Spammability is not an issue, its giving her viable offence. Its only two 400ms attacks, the minimum needed to open people up with regular attacks.

Sure, I'm just mentioning the bear minimum boost needed for her damage. The same with heavy attacks. The issue is that her oos throw punish is actually quite high already at 65, I don't want it increased much past that.

I like to imagine valk as the ultimate hybrid, with literally a little bit of everything in her kit. Individually each ability is less than what you can get with other characters, and it comes at the expense of her hp and maybe a tiny bit in damage.

The heavies don't really need to be undodgeable as her gb would catch those attempting to dodge anyway, plus they already have pretty good tracking already.

I took the damage out of her sweep followup and put it into her heavies and lights as to not really change much in her oos throw and parry punishes as they are pretty high already.

In regards to the shield tackle, GB's do not catch it.
Watch this video: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/9avsac/demonstrating_the_strength_of_valkyries_option/
It proves that her shield tackle is way too strong on the defensive. All I want to do is move its most ridiculous defensive ability into some offence. The idea is changing it this way makes it so that all of those whiffed GB's would connect. It will still have some use defensively against parts of some mixups (kensei pommel/light, warden uncharged/charged bash, conq's regular/delayed sb), but if the enemy would decide to gb instead, they would catch them (unlike what was shown in the clip).

I don't think any unblockable has full block, top block sure, as bp and conq have those on their bashes, but not full block.

Zone would be useful with my changes as it can be cancelled into a shield crush, then if that doesn't hit, followed up with a bidirectional 400ms light.

Disagree on 400ms spam not being an issue. Please keep in mind only a small amount of players are on PC. Nuxia has a pretty poor kit but still shine in the stats only thanks to her double 400ms tri-directionnal lights.

Her oos throw dmg would not go higher anyway as Dodge light would still be 17 and sweep 3 less dmg.

I did not mention undodgeable property to her heavy and i did not see your zone proposals in the op.

This is a vid where you now what the opponent is going to do on training mode. I have 24 reps with Valk and got regularly GB during my backward shield tackle. This very small amount of time needed to understand what your opponent is going to do change a lot of things.

Some bash have HA, plus shield tackle only guaranteed 13 dmg so i dont see a pb with the full block. Running Time makes you too vulnerable. If no full block then HA is needed for this moove to works properly.

MCBooma16
06-05-2019, 04:48 PM
Spammability is not an issue, its giving her viable offence. Its only two 400ms attacks, the minimum needed to open people up with regular attacks.

Sure, I'm just mentioning the bear minimum boost needed for her damage. The same with heavy attacks. The issue is that her oos throw punish is actually quite high already at 65, I don't want it increased much past that.

I like to imagine valk as the ultimate hybrid, with literally a little bit of everything in her kit. Individually each ability is less than what you can get with other characters, and it comes at the expense of her hp and maybe a tiny bit in damage.

The heavies don't really need to be undodgeable as her gb would catch those attempting to dodge anyway, plus they already have pretty good tracking already.

I took the damage out of her sweep followup and put it into her heavies and lights as to not really change much in her oos throw and parry punishes as they are pretty high already.

In regards to the shield tackle, GB's do not catch it.
Watch this video: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/9avsac/demonstrating_the_strength_of_valkyries_option/
It proves that her shield tackle is way too strong on the defensive. All I want to do is move its most ridiculous defensive ability into some offence. The idea is changing it this way makes it so that all of those whiffed GB's would connect. It will still have some use defensively against parts of some mixups (kensei pommel/light, warden uncharged/charged bash, conq's regular/delayed sb), but if the enemy would decide to gb instead, they would catch them (unlike what was shown in the clip).

I don't think any unblockable has full block, top block sure, as bp and conq have those on their bashes, but not full block.

Zone would be useful with my changes as it can be cancelled into a shield crush, then if that doesn't hit, followed up with a bidirectional 400ms light.

I don't think she needs 400ms lights now that I think about it. If she had two-directional 400ms lights she'd be a little more than a hybrid.

About that Reddit video... It seems rather biased. You showed three characters getting evaded by the back dodge to AB, not to mention MANY different variables and scenarios. Theoretically, yes, Valkyrie CAN evade those mixups, but it won't always be possible to evade every single mixup on reaction in one fight. Besides, if you were to backdodge a neutral heavy, chances are a delayed or perhaps even a regular followup light from the opponent will hit you as you charge. It happens all the time actually. You can't say Valkyrie's AB is the strongest in the game when it's easier to be GB'd from the AB with other characters. Not to mention people's reactions are good enough nowadays to be able to actually avoid the initial bash after almost committing to a second heavy, as it's slow enough that a person can feint, dodge, and punish the bash. The strongest defensive tool in the game right now is probably Nobishi's hidden stance, as it can't be punished by GB.

About Valkyrie's zone: As it was used in the video, chances are the first hit of the zone will never land, as it's 700ms and people always tend to block it. I think it's good that the zone can be SF'd to a bash before the second hit, but at this point it's really just a dead move. Valkyrie's zone has to be one of the worst zone attacks in the game methinks. If you were to option select using Valkyrie's zone, the opponent's feints to lights would most likely always hit you first.

I agree With Siegfried-Z about no undodgeable properties. I think her heavies track nicely already, as people always try to dodge second and third light chains. If they try to dodge those second or third light chains, chances are they'll get hit if you throw a heavy for the second or third chains instead.

MumfordDaHound
06-06-2019, 03:06 PM
I would suggest a revamp on what perks she can use too! She is a hybrid, all of her perks are assist perks.. Other hybrids are mixed with offense and assist or def and assist, for the love of god let her have more options other than just assist.