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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 09:53 PM
I saw this film and liked it very much ,but why do you think we see so few films about the Russian effort in WW2 lets face it of all the allies they Sacrificed the most.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 09:53 PM
I saw this film and liked it very much ,but why do you think we see so few films about the Russian effort in WW2 lets face it of all the allies they Sacrificed the most.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 09:58 PM
You wonder why they sacrificed so much? Look at their tactics? Human waves obviously didnt work, until winter rolled around when they had no winter clothing.

And I thought the move was ok, but nothing special

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 10:03 PM
I couldn't agree w/ you more about the lack of films on the Soviet effort.

I think the reasons are those of money, politics, and geography.

Money, because selling a Russian story to Western moviegoers would be difficult.

Politics, because up until the 90's the western world downplayed anything Russian, I doubt that the average guy on the street could name all the western allies in WWII, much less describe the Russian contribution.

Geography, because I'm sure there are plenty of Non-American moviegoers who would love to see more about the Eastern Front, unfortunately the movie capital of the world is in California, and those ppl can't even tell the difference between actors and politicians.

There are some good movies about the Eastern front already, Stalingrad is one. And while not related to the Russians "Dark Blue World" is an excellent film from a non-western perspective, created by a non-western studio.


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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 10:05 PM
zogran wrote:
,but why do
- you think we see so few films about the Russian
- effort in WW2 lets face it of all the allies they
- Sacrificed the most.
-
-
-
-
-

Because Hollywood in in California, not Moscow. Jim

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 10:06 PM
Actually, there have been lots of movies made about the Russian Front. We Westerners are primarily exposed to those made by Hollywood Studios, which of course are centered on topics involving Americans, or maybe some other ally.

In fact I think it was a rather bold move to make a fairly high budget movie centering on that theatre of war. As sad a fact as it is, most Americans cannot point out Russia on a map, so why should they care about a Stalingrad-themed movie?

I'm an American, so I get to see this type of shameful ignorance firsthand.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 10:59 PM
I can vouch for "Stalingrad" as well, it's both awesome and sobering in its realistic portrayal of the horrors of war.

I personally feel that we need movies like this not so much for the entertainment value, but to remind us that war is anything _but_ entertaining for the people who have to fight them.



Message Edited on 09/19/0310:04PM by dapendragon

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 11:03 PM
I got the movie Stalingrad from Suncoast video and I have to say this movie is amazing. Its originally in German but you can change lanquages or add subtitles. Do you want to know what desperation is? Just watch the Germans trying to get out of their on a JU-52. An excellent movie that puts EATG to shame. Plus, there are no dumb british accents, or blatant propaganda. Yay!

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 11:05 PM
Yep, the disparity with the Russian side of things saddens me too. As a Brit, I too was almost completely ignorant of the Russian side until IL2 (then I started reading books on it and learned).

Personally, I think things are beginning to change...

I disagree with Rommel10 strongly, it was not as simple as hordes of Russians throwing themselves on German guns. READ up on the Russian/Soviet history, pal. Become wiser...




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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 11:12 PM
Come on lighten up SeaFire - it's Friday./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I liked the movie and wish there were more accurate media about the eastern front. As an American I feel bad about how much history has been lost because of no interest and how much has been re-written to make it more popular. Some of the best stories from around the world will never be told.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 11:17 PM
I found this film called 'Zvezda'

Its in Russian and was a DL but looks interesting.


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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 11:18 PM
I think it would show a hatred of russia of how badly the soldiers and citizens were treated, russia killed more of thier own soldiers and citizens then any of the nations axis and allies. Back then russia was just as bad as germany even worse considering cruelness.

I would like to see a band of brothers type of series that showed land sea an air what it was like for the tank crews pilots and soldiers of russia britian frenchs defeats germany japan and china burma with documentarys of all the sruviviors and sadly theres not many left and alot of untold stories


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XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:22 AM
Bronco_Nagurski wrote:
- Actually, there have been lots of movies made about
- the Russian Front. We Westerners are primarily
- exposed to those made by Hollywood Studios, which of
- course are centered on topics involving Americans,
- or maybe some other ally.
-
- In fact I think it was a rather bold move to make a
- fairly high budget movie centering on that theatre
- of war. As sad a fact as it is, most Americans
- cannot point out Russia on a map, so why should they
- care about a Stalingrad-themed movie?
-
- I'm an American, so I get to see this type of
- shameful ignorance firsthand.


Speak for yourself and your circle of friends...... I for one am not geographically challenged and niether are most of my friends...

EATG was a decent film. Hollywood puts it's spin on things to be sure but it was a decent film. Some Russians in this forum thought it was crap, maybe it was historically but from what I have read it was reasonably accurate. The opening scene was great. I watch most movies like that for the battle scenes anyway. I find foreign films to be better overall as far as content but for sheer visuals nobody can beat H'wood....../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:27 AM
yea but those red madness save us... wonder if germany had allied withg them

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XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:33 AM
Hey Bearcat, I said MOST Americans. Read the studies on this issue. Just because you and your friends are familiar with geography does NOT mean that MOST Americans are not ignorant about it. The fact is that most Americans have a poor grasp of world geography. I'm sorry if this fact pains you to hear.

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:44 AM
All politics aside, I thought that the movie was crap. It reduced one of the most important turning points in recent history to a love triangle. I'll take Stalingrad, Das Boot or Gallipolli any day.

You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.
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XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 01:06 AM
I'm sorry but I had to scroll down this thread without reading it.

You might like to check out Come and See'. I saw it for sale at Virgin (the one near Robson and Thurlow) in Vancouver (for you BC guys, not necessarily convenient for everyone) last year

Enemy at Gates was good enough, but 'Stalingrad' is way better film. Das Boot is really excellent as well. Both very honest I felt.


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XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 01:16 AM
The Germans did ally with Russian with the non-aggression pact, which was just another Hitler ruse. Anyway the country that actually won the war against the Germans was Russia in many long slugging out battles for three years, sorry to say the Americans like WWI came in at the end when the enemy was weak and a certain win was obtainable, around Kursk was the big turning point where massive tank and infantry with equal experience and firepower met and the Russians were the victors, from that point onward it was a steady march to Berlin. With this the allies landed to open up that second front the Russians wanted for three years to push through the western german divisions, a mere 20 or so, compared to what the Germans had thrown at Russia which was about 4 or 5 times as much.

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XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 01:28 AM
bazzaah2 wrote:
- I'm sorry but I had to scroll down this thread
- without reading it.
-
- You might like to check out Come and See'. I saw it
- for sale at Virgin (the one near Robson and Thurlow)
- in Vancouver (for you BC guys, not necessarily
- convenient for everyone) last year
-
- Enemy at Gates was good enough, but 'Stalingrad' is
- way better film. Das Boot is really excellent as
- well. Both very honest I felt.
-
-
-
<img
- src="http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_b
- anner_07.gif">
-
-
- She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

Yes, watch "Come and See." Would be an excellent wake-up call for all you who liked that EATG tripe.



--AKD

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XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 02:14 AM
I spoke with a women at work who was born in lenningrad in 15 yrs only 2 people had heard of it and I was the only one who knew where it was.I asked her if she lived through the siege she didn't understand me at first but then she said "oh the starving time".Many people don't know it but geography is not taught anymore in US schools.Also history is now almost completely social studies so that childern don't get bored.I've heard that answer 3 times from 3 different school administrators in 3 different towns.I've had to teach both my elder children history and geography.So I agree with the previous post.

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 03:35 AM
Sacrifice???? You mean slaughter, right?

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XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 05:34 AM
take a look at an old 1942 map of europe, how much of russia the germans occupied then take a look at when the US allied with many nations is when to turn the tides.

you comment about america joining at the end of the war after it was almost over is ridiculous.

took all the allied nations to do it, the tides did turn for germany when another superpower allied, that superpower was the US

And they certainly didnt win the war themselves at all!


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XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 06:02 AM
All I know is the Germans officially started the war Sept 1939, even though it was around 1936, Russia was battling them from 1941 onward. The British and commonwealth nations were fighting from 1936 onward, then the Americans in 1941. With the Germans the big fight came not really from Sicly or North Africa but on D-Day onward. The Russians were by then already pushing them back big time and millions were already dead, then came the big Allied push. The Russians,what I was saying were the first to really beat the Germans as a whole army. I'm going by numbers with the Russians and Germans there were over million soldiers fighting, whole German Army groups lost to the Russians. The biggest kill for the Allies was Falaise with about 20 divisions or so killed or wounded, but a lot got away to come back and haunt the Americans at Christmas.

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XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 06:04 AM
More like 5 million soldiers on the Russian Front.

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XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 06:10 AM
No offence to original poster... but this movie is the MOST ******ed movie of all times. I am telling you this as russian and as grandson of someone who defended that city
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
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"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 06:24 AM
excellent film no doubt, a top film about ww2, maybe the history of the country will be more avail, proly spark more imagination then films etc..


MAD

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 06:27 AM
russia used weird tactics, hey lets wait for the winter and hope it all works out lol (im being very sarcastic it wasent like that at all, i thought it was funny)

well my name was spelled wrong

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 06:57 AM
I would truely like to respond to this post properly but that would mean staying up all bloody night. So let me cut to the chase: The Axis powers were crushed between two fists. One from the East and one from the west. Much can also be said of the hinderance the German top leadership(Ha!) caused thier own forces.

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 10:00 AM
If you wanna see more that russian humanwave attacks then watch Winter War
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000646UN/qid=1064048289/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_4/103-2332750-0278244?v=glance&s=dvd&n=507846

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 02:58 PM
I'd like to know how many of the 20.000.000 soviet people that died in WW2 fell to the enemy, and how many to Stalin brutal politics and "cannon fodder" tactics. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

- Dux Corvan -



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XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 03:16 PM
it might be a more instructuve to ask, of those WW2 casulaties in USSR, how many were civilians? How many died as slave labour? Granted, the Soviet system committed some dreadful crimes against its own population, but that split will show true horror and cost of the German occupation.

As far as I know, EATG was a mult-lateral European production.





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XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 06:56 PM
I wonder what would have happend if Hitler didnt invade Russia and concentrated on Western Europe , hehe, goodby England and USA.

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 09:28 PM
First of all, last I checked, the USA is not in Western Europe. Secondly, Britain had thwarted Hitler's attempt to subdue it in 1940, before the USSR was involved. Germany had nowhere near the fleet to accomplish a cross-channel invasion.

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 11:05 PM
Skyhawk44 wrote:
- I wonder what would have happend if Hitler didnt
- invade Russia and concentrated on Western Europe ,
- hehe, goodby England and USA.
-

If Germany had invaded and conquered UK, King and fleet would have sheltered in Canada and go on the fight from there. As for the USA, they were the only one who had enough industrial, human and economic resources to fight a war in two fronts and research the ATOMIC BOMB.

Hehe, goodby Hitler. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 11:23 PM
crazyivan1970 wrote:
- No offence to original poster... but this movie is
- the MOST ******ed movie of all times. I am telling
- you this as russian and as grandson of someone who
- defended that city
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- Regards,
- VFC*Crazyivan
- http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif
-
- "No matter how good the violin may be, much depends
- on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy
- pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub
-

Ivan, has he told you how it was? I read some quotes that made me burst into tears. I watched a documental about the war with interviews from both sides. they said there were special groups to assault the stairs of the houses, only one of ten survived. they interviewed a survivor from one of those groups. he said he killed a few people with a trench shovel... OMG!!!

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Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king."

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 11:26 PM
Suckerpunch11 wrote:
- First of all, last I checked, the USA is not in
- Western Europe. Secondly, Britain had thwarted
- Hitler's attempt to subdue it in 1940, before the
- USSR was involved. Germany had nowhere near the
- fleet to accomplish a cross-channel invasion.
-

Humm, Resources put by the Axis on western front are not even near to be compared with Axis efforts and resources on the eastern front. And BOB did not last long, till Hitler had allready lost interest of conquering Britain.. Stalin and USSR was the worst enemy (in political, physic and spiritual way). And the preparations of Barbarossa started long before the final attack on summer 1941,probably as soon as year 1940..therefore I would like to think, that if Germany had put all her efforts into BOB, instead of Operation Barbarossa, Britain had fallen. English ppl, be thankful for the sacrifice made by soviet people..

And had BOB beeing won by Germany, British Naval vessels would not have been that big concern.. Germany did not have as big fleet as England, but they had strong U-boat fleet, and strong battle ships. That, and complete superiority would have been enough to win Britain.. But they could have easily force Britain to surrender by effectivily blocking the supply routes from USA.. with airsuperiority also..

And remember, Nuclear bomb was basicly made by German scientists in USA, if they had not escape Germany, the world would be very different nowdays with Nazy Germany owning atomic weapons... fortunalety not.

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XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 11:48 PM
Had to say this: I really enjoyed Dark Blue World. The air combat seemed more immediate to me. I thought the special effects were pretty good.

By the way, I liked Enemy at the Gates very much. I alwys like to see new actors (to me anyway).

XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 12:06 AM
"Go and see"...or "Come and see" was and still a fantastic movie, one of the best in Pre-Perestroika era. Story about Belorussian villages that got run over by SS Zonder Commands. Pretty scary stuff i must say.

I agree with many posters here that "Stalingrad" is the only movie that somewhat close to realistic representation of those days. Zvezda is another great one (The Star) about group of soviet soldiers behind enemy lines. It`s no Saving Privat Ryan, but great, i own it on DVD. Not sure if it`s translated on English.

Why Enemy and the Gates was crap? I think it`s obvious enough. Weaponless human wave attacks? What? NKVD with machine guns behind regular troops? Please, LOL! Drunken parties at the basements of ruined buildings. What a bunch of disrespectfull horse...t! That movie even worse then Windtalkers...ack. Needless to mention that sleezy love story... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Nuff said.


Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 01:11 AM
The book "Enemy at the Gates" IMHO is the best book about Stalingrad. But: only 3 pages out of 250 are dedicated to the sniper duel!!

Typical Hollywood: they invent a story based on the three pages and add a love triangle too... The movie is crappy. Read the book!

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XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 01:16 AM
Are you saying that human wave attacks and penal battalions didn't exist?

XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 01:53 AM
seen the movie, loved it

Sniping time!

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XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 03:39 AM
turenne wrote:
- Are you saying that human wave attacks and penal
- battalions didn't exist?
-
-

No, i`m not saying it. NKVD with machineguns were behind penal battalions, it`s a fact. Human wave attacks were common in the beginning at the war but soon became not really popular. But same type of attacks was used by germans as well, in case you didn`t know. First tanks, infantry right behind them.

There is a big difference between penal battalions and regular troops... it was obviously not the case in EATG.

By the way, war in stalingrad was a pure street war, there were no 1000 soldiers running thru the streets and screaming Hurraayyy!!

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub


Message Edited on 09/21/0303:40AM by crazyivan1970

XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 02:56 PM
The german army used infiltration tactics that were designed in ww1.Strangely enough the germans were never taught defence in their military schools and manuvers,it is amazing that they did so well seeing they were on the defence in 50% of the fronts in 41 and 100% in 43 on.Talk about amazing is the russian soldiers ability to live let alone fight like devils with no food or water for days on end Did you ever read about the kv1 that held up a division for more than a week on the lenningrad front.Russian soldiers have historically been much better on the defence than offence since their debut in western european history(CharlesXII and Frederick the great until now).They consistently gave Frederick his hardest battles.I've never said you guys didn't fight well but because of standing orders and threat of punishment until 43 on your tactics were very predictable.Also it is wrong for everybody to lay the germans foolishness at times on hitler alone,many newer facts have emerged that sometimes he was on the money and they did what they wanted too.Hitler also envied stalin and his ability to inspire such fear in his own generals,contrary to popular belief hitler could not just rid himself of what he considered problems.My main for want of a better term "argument" with you has been that you consider soldiers fighting for stalin doing ther duty and germans who fought for hitler as nazi scumbags.I just read in 43 they did a poll of american troops and only 4% wanted to kill germans where 44% wanted to kill japanese.Yet nowadays there is less bitterness between ex japanese and american soldiers than there is with german ones.Most veterans here consider all ww2 germans nazi's.

XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 03:17 PM
Bronco_Nagurski wrote:
- Hey Bearcat, I said MOST Americans. Read the studies
- on this issue. Just because you and your friends are
- familiar with geography does NOT mean that MOST
- Americans are not ignorant about it. The fact is
- that most Americans have a poor grasp of world
- geography. I'm sorry if this fact pains you to hear.

NP Bronc... I am not offended in the least. Actually you are right....now that I think of it. There was a poll done a while back where they asked seceral random Americans most were like 35 and under, questions like what is the capital of Russia? Who were the Axis powers in WW2? One that sticks out in my mind was Where was the Battle of Britain fought?...LOL... A lot of folks got that one wrong..... so yeah you are right....

Getting back to historical accuracy.....even though some of the stuff is off...just like it was in PH and U571 I think it was...it is still good to see the story told even if part wrong. Sometimes Hollywood reminds me of Proffessor Peabody & Simon in thier Wayback machine..LMAO... In the movie The Tuskegee Airmen there were LOTS of innacuracies and things just flat left out from a historical viewpoint but it was still good to see the story told...... I just am into WW2 movies........ I would like to get a greatest scenes folder of all the great Battle scenes of my favorites movies.......


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XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 03:23 PM
Reading "Stalingrad" by Anthony Beavor (and the follow up: "Fall of Berlin 1945) should be mandatory before anyone posts their opinion on these matters.

Excellent books - very informative and VERY NON-PARTISAN. Really gives a account of just how awful the conditions were on both sides. And the brutality committed by both sides.
Also how incredibly brutal the Soviets were to their own people...really just as bad as the Nazis.

One real interesting point is right up to the end of the war in the seige of Berlin, Beavor notes there were still Soviets deserting to join the German side.

I read War of the Rats (which Enemy at the Gates was based on) and it wasn't a bad book - at least not compared to the movie. Pretty corny at times though...

I'll pick up the Enemy at the Gates book. Have been avoiding it as I thought maybe it was too linked to the movie. Glad to hear its not. Thanks for the tip.



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XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 03:43 PM
The Britsh had good pilots and good equipment. They also chose when to fight and when to just sit it out. Some of the High Ranking German officers wanted an invasion so that the RAF would be forced into the air on German terms, where they could be dealt with. Goering was a pitiful bluderer who espoused a strange mixture of space age ideas anf WW1 tactics. He had guts, but that's all. If Germany had postponed the Russian campaign and invaded England, England would have fallen.

XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 03:54 PM
prozac70 wrote:
- The Britsh had good pilots and good equipment. They
- also chose when to fight and when to just sit it
- out. Some of the High Ranking German officers wanted
- an invasion so that the RAF would be forced into the
- air on German terms, where they could be dealt with.
- Goering was a pitiful bluderer who espoused a
- strange mixture of space age ideas anf WW1 tactics.
- He had guts, but that's all. If Germany had
- postponed the Russian campaign and invaded England,
- England would have fallen.
-
-

True about Goering...but all it would have taken for the Brits is a couple large cruisers or capital ships to come steaming down from Scapa Flow to destroy the entire landing fleet. Would be fish in a barrell...even if they lost ships to subs or German air power.

Even with 100% control of the seas and air, the Normandy landings were still a difficult task to pull off. Imagine Germany with only partial control of the air, and a massive British fleet to deal with...and not exactly a huge amount of landing craft or support.

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