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View Full Version : Lawbringer Mix-up Intensive?



Okt0g00N
05-31-2019, 05:47 PM
First of all, i want to thank Ubisoft for making a great Lawbringer rework, yet with the removal of shove options, he could use some soft-feints and some small changes in the
upcoming mid-season patch or next season, i really hope these go through, his real opener is parrying which is quite risky and is based on the enemy's mistakes.
I've already made a change list for him but it seems like i missed alot of things, so ill remake it, hope i don't get my account banned for this.

Stamina
Ubisoft knows, i know, we know that his stamina is in a pretty bad state, and im not talking about OOS, im talking about his stamina overall, if he is gonna be mix-up intensive and wont trade, then a stamina regeneration and stamina buff overall would be really good and will help him maintain pressure and actually making the enemy re-thing their choices before fighting Lawbringer, because right now, ill be honest, every enemy i encounter spams attack that i parry and block yet i still run out of stamina trying to attack, and then i lose.

Shove
Right now neutral shove is bad, i mean if it would track a bit better, like late dodges, it would be great, now this might be a bit OP but his actual opener would be a soft-feint
yes, a soft-feint Any Heavy into 600MS Shove, and with the stamina change he will be able to keep the pressure going, and actually punishing people who are literal stone-face gods and react to actual attacks, not feints.

Zone Attack
Zone attack is really great, yet a bit lacking, seeing most zone attacks lead into a combo or hardly a combo like JJ's zone that he can cancel his recovery into his stance.
I would really like if Lawbringer could combo out of his zone/or even soft feint his attacks into one. Sure it will be the most stamina consuming combo but will look cool, will sometimes mess up the enemy because it's fast and has a rather clunky yet good animation and will count as a chain starter.

Parry Punishes
35 Damage that is almost guaranteed after every parry is quite good, yet fitting, though his impale is just not worth it, 5 more damage with a wall behind and 70% or more of your stamina gone, sure in team fights it might be good, but i always get interrupted out of, even while playing with my friends, even though we are communicating we sometimes fail, we are not literal gods at the game and we do miss time attacks, not so often though yet we do, we miss time attacks and stuff only resulting in 10-20 damage and -60% stamina on the Lawbringer, i would say making it deal 20 damage or 15 so it actually worth wasting that much stamina.

Zone Attack
After a landed zone attack you can do a 500MS shove into your mixup of choice.

This is all i think, i don't think he needs more, he is great, yet he has no openers, and with this post Ubisoft could get some ideas or take my ideas and put them into the game.


Thank you for reading my post, really, i appreciate you
Thank you to any members that may share this
To the balancing team aswell
And thanks to Ubisoft we
Have our beloved Lawbringer in this great
State <3

FlyinBeef
05-31-2019, 07:56 PM
Shove
now this might be a bit OP but his actual opener would be a soft-feint
yes, a soft-feint Any Heavy into 500MS Shove, and with the stamina change he will be able to keep the pressure going, and actually punishing people who are literal stone-face gods and react to actual attacks, not feints.

Yeah, it will be OP. It will be Valk with 150hp, big punishes, good anti-bash dodge-attack and almost unpunishable 500ms soft-feint bash with more damage. Even if it will be punishable I think it doesn't suit him. I have no other interesting ideas, but such soft-feint is bad idea imo and he need something other.

I have no thoughts about other suggestions.

Okt0g00N
05-31-2019, 08:11 PM
Yeah, it will be OP. It will be Valk with 150hp, big punishes, good anti-bash dodge-attack and almost unpunishable 500ms soft-feint bash with more damage. Even if it will be punishable I think it doesn't suit him. I have no other interesting ideas, but such soft-feint is bad idea imo and he need something other.

I have no thoughts about other suggestions.

Look man if you come here to complain and say my thing is trash, well then, make a viable opener for him, look i even gave you challenge, do it and will see <3

FlyinBeef
05-31-2019, 09:02 PM
Look man if you come here to complain and say my thing is trash, well then, make a viable opener for him, look i even gave you challenge, do it and will see <3
I just want every hero little bit individual, interesting and have not completely copy-pasted/absurd ways to iniciate. Of course we can give every hero feintable bash a la Warden, roll punish and all lights 400ms. It will be viable offence, but is viability the only criterion?:confused:

Knight_Raime
05-31-2019, 09:22 PM
1) Sure. guy needs a bigger stamina pool.

2) Neutral shove isn't bad wholistically. it's got amazing recovery so you can't GB punish it and because it's an armored bash you can trade into someone's offense or counter punish someone's bash. There isn't really a reason to make shove a soft feint option as he already has ease of access to his bash. Anyone who can already read his current situation could read his new one with the soft feint.

3) His zone has small recovery as well. Meaning you can already attack after the zone quickly. The only reason to make it a combo starter is to help get further into his combo or for damage purposes. Neither of which he really needs more of atm.

4) Then you guys must be doing something wrong. I solo que most of the time and play with a single friend at most and I rarely get interrupted out of my impale. There really isn't a reason to go for parry into impale with parry into zone/riposte being as good as they are in team fight situations. Parry to impale should really only be done if you're ganking someone and even then only if you can time it to kill the person. (as you can guarantee 3 heavies with a proper parry into impale into wall splat into long arm.)

5) Giving him a LLH combo doesn't really seem necessary with how his current kit is.

If LB is to retain his current identity there isn't really anything more they should do beyond a stamina pool increase and perhaps better tracking heavies. I'd be all for ditching his turtle identity for something more fun/interesting but until the devs let go of that mindset I don't really see the point of attempting to give suggestions that take him away from the current identity.

Goat_of_Vermund
06-01-2019, 01:40 AM
If we would want to add a softfeint, it should be an armored Longarm softfeinted from heavies. it would beat parry attempts, including zone optionselects (more specifically, would trade with them), however, a dodge, even an oos dodge, would gb punish this. This would give him a little more room in 1v1, however, longarm is a really powerful move in 4v4, and I am unsure how it would affect balance- maybe only the startup should be armored, the flip itself shouldn't.

Okt0g00N
06-01-2019, 02:39 PM
1) Sure. guy needs a bigger stamina pool.

2) Neutral shove isn't bad wholistically. it's got amazing recovery so you can't GB punish it and because it's an armored bash you can trade into someone's offense or counter punish someone's bash. There isn't really a reason to make shove a soft feint option as he already has ease of access to his bash. Anyone who can already read his current situation could read his new one with the soft feint.

3) His zone has small recovery as well. Meaning you can already attack after the zone quickly. The only reason to make it a combo starter is to help get further into his combo or for damage purposes. Neither of which he really needs more of atm.

4) Then you guys must be doing something wrong. I solo que most of the time and play with a single friend at most and I rarely get interrupted out of my impale. There really isn't a reason to go for parry into impale with parry into zone/riposte being as good as they are in team fight situations. Parry to impale should really only be done if you're ganking someone and even then only if you can time it to kill the person. (as you can guarantee 3 heavies with a proper parry into impale into wall splat into long arm.)

5) Giving him a LLH combo doesn't really seem necessary with how his current kit is.

If LB is to retain his current identity there isn't really anything more they should do beyond a stamina pool increase and perhaps better tracking heavies. I'd be all for ditching his turtle identity for something more fun/interesting but until the devs let go of that mindset I don't really see the point of attempting to give suggestions that take him away from the current identity.

Listen here, i know he is great in 4v4s and overall much better, but where is his opener, where is it? Atm he has no real opener, just the enemies mistakes.
Also i don't know how godly you are at the game but my friends and some players actually interrupt my impale, because they might have done an attack while i was impaling and it stops it, with friends, sure we don't stop the impale as often but it happens,we mess up the timings and stuff, we are not literal gods at ganking as you.

So saying he is good rn, is a small lie, he needs an opener, if you came here to tell me im completely wrong, then tell me one, im sure yours will be better <3

DFQN1
06-01-2019, 03:28 PM
I just want every hero little bit individual, interesting and have not completely copy-pasted/absurd ways to iniciate. Of course we can give every hero feintable bash a la Warden, roll punish and all lights 400ms. It will be viable offence, but is viability the only criterion?:confused:

Exactly. Because of this reason I removed Shugoki from my main list. He lost his uniqueness.

Goat_of_Vermund
06-01-2019, 06:21 PM
He actually has openers:

1. A 400ms neutral light from top.
2. 500ms neutral superior lights from both sides.
3. After a blocked heavy, a 400ms top light, 500ms side lights, the shove mixup (if you think it will be a pre-emptive dodge, you can catch it with a second side heavy). Counts after the first or the second heavy.
4. Heavy finisher is a very strong unblockable.
5. Neutral shove is slow, but is hyperarmored and has about the same recovery as the safest Black Prior bashes.

If you count these all together, it is very hard to watch out for everything a Lawbringer can do to you. I am really, really bad at counterattacking, but his offense is actually one of the bests. I win most of my duels with the new lawbringer, some of them without parrying anything at all. And if you know how to parry well, he also has the best punishes in the game. I would really put him in A tier, he is a well rounded hero- the only thing that bothers me is how his longarm has no use in 1v1, outside some very accurate read in very specific matchups.

Knight_Raime
06-01-2019, 06:39 PM
Listen here, i know he is great in 4v4s and overall much better, but where is his opener, where is it? Atm he has no real opener, just the enemies mistakes.
Also i don't know how godly you are at the game but my friends and some players actually interrupt my impale, because they might have done an attack while i was impaling and it stops it, with friends, sure we don't stop the impale as often but it happens,we mess up the timings and stuff, we are not literal gods at ganking as you.

So saying he is good rn, is a small lie, he needs an opener, if you came here to tell me im completely wrong, then tell me one, im sure yours will be better <3

So firstly nothing of my post was about an opener nor did I get the impression that your thread was about giving him one. You mentioned he doesn't have one and wanted to give him one but that wasn't the whole thread.

Secondly I never said he was a God atm nor did I say or imply in my reply anything about his kits performance as a whole. So I've not lied.

Finally if it's not being interrupted as much as you made it initially sounded then there is again no reason to be trying to change it. You're seemingly pulling a problem from thin air. Impale is already worth going for if you are near a ledge or can setup a proper gank. He already does enough damage with his punishes he doesn't need even more.

I'm the second person to give you general feedback on your suggested changes and rather than attempting to disprove what either of us have said you've made it all about "openers" and got all defensive. If you can't handle feedback that doesn't agree with you then why are you posting your ideas.

P. S. Heavy soft feint into shove wouldn't be a reliable opener. It would be a slightly slower version of black priors heavy soft feint into bash.

TheUberDome
06-03-2019, 03:54 PM
Whilst this is a good idea, I doubt ubisoft will take any notice of it. They're done with LB. They dont care about feedback and I doubt anything will change with the hero.

FlyinBeef
06-03-2019, 11:16 PM
Exactly. Because of this reason I removed Shugoki from my main list. He lost his uniqueness.

He lost his uniqueness maybe after Hitokiri release. If we look at Shugoki apart from other heroes, at old Shugoki and at new Shugoki, then he lost nothing. He was trader, he is still trader. He was ganker, he is still quite good ganker. The only problem of rework that he still have no viable offence or at least roll-punish, but it isn't about his uniquenesses. Regarding uniquenesses and keeping character identity it is one of the best reworks.

Okt0g00N
06-04-2019, 05:50 PM
So firstly nothing of my post was about an opener nor did I get the impression that your thread was about giving him one. You mentioned he doesn't have one and wanted to give him one but that wasn't the whole thread.

Secondly I never said he was a God atm nor did I say or imply in my reply anything about his kits performance as a whole. So I've not lied.

Finally if it's not being interrupted as much as you made it initially sounded then there is again no reason to be trying to change it. You're seemingly pulling a problem from thin air. Impale is already worth going for if you are near a ledge or can setup a proper gank. He already does enough damage with his punishes he doesn't need even more.

I'm the second person to give you general feedback on your suggested changes and rather than attempting to disprove what either of us have said you've made it all about "openers" and got all defensive. If you can't handle feedback that doesn't agree with you then why are you posting your ideas.

P. S. Heavy soft feint into shove wouldn't be a reliable opener. It would be a slightly slower version of black priors heavy soft feint into bash.

okay, i agree i got a bit annoyed there, and yes i do think his kit is good, yet the impale man, i miss it, and if you were a lawbringer main you know how bad it is to have parrying as your opener.
also, if my stuff makes no sense and it's trash, then please,go ahead and tell me your option of opener i really don't think he is great without an opener, neither some options to make him flow better.
Clunky as he is, he still needs an opener, yea sure his zone stuff, those won't help but the soft-feint will make him feel better

UbiInsulin
06-04-2019, 06:40 PM
okay, i agree i got a bit annoyed there, and yes i do think his kit is good, yet the impale man, i miss it, and if you were a lawbringer main you know how bad it is to have parrying as your opener.
also, if my stuff makes no sense and it's trash, then please,go ahead and tell me your option of opener i really don't think he is great without an opener, neither some options to make him flow better.
Clunky as he is, he still needs an opener, yea sure his zone stuff, those won't help but the soft-feint will make him feel better

I'm pretty sure I've seen people describe his current opener as enough to keep the worst turtles honest. Do you think LB needs more than this, or do you think that this is not really the case?

Illyrian_King
06-04-2019, 09:58 PM
I'm pretty sure I've seen people describe his current opener as enough to keep the worst turtles honest. Do you think LB needs more than this, or do you think that this is not really the case?

Of course he needs a lot more. His lights are neat now, but they aren't an opener. Blocking top and reacting on side has proven pretty sufficient for shutting his offense down. It is not just the lack of an opener. It's also about no hyperarmour, lack in stamina (just taking a parried impale and impale in general as an example), the fact you can't follow a light by anything else then a parry guaranteed heavy. Not even talking about how unfluid and ugly his animations currently are.

His whole rework heavily looks a 1-afternoon job, as there are so many holes in it. So obvious things completely untouched. I don't uderstand how the same guy (or guys) could release Lawbringer and Raider rework at the same time, without reckognizing that one is still lackluster while the other is brokenly OP. How couldn't all their alarm bells ring?? :confused:

Sneakly20
06-04-2019, 10:19 PM
Of course he needs a lot more. His lights are neat now, but they aren't an opener. Blocking top and reacting on side has proven pretty sufficient for shutting his offense down. It is not just the lack of an opener. It's also about no hyperarmour, lack in stamina (just taking a parried impale and impale in general as an example), the fact you can't follow a light by anything else then a parry guaranteed heavy. Not even talking about how unfluid and ugly his animations currently are.

His whole rework heavily looks a 1-afternoon job, as there are so many holes in it. So obvious things completely untouched. I don't uderstand how the same guy (or guys) could release Lawbringer and Raider rework at the same time, without reckognizing that one is still lackluster while the other is brokenly OP. How couldn't all their alarm bells ring?? :confused:

So Iím commenting here just so I can understand your point. You have frivolously attacked the fact that lawbro has no hyper armor. What would lawbro do with hyper armor OUTSIDE of it being on his finisher top heavy? Or something that increased tracking couldnít fix? Where would you put the armor? Starting heavy? We have enough of that right now. Plus you have an armored bash, how many character can say they have that? And itís available from neutral and mid combo.

If you block top then you negate the 400ms but then you have the side lights with enhanced property. Sure you can react to them but what if they throw the occasional heavy?

Someone plays enough with it then you canít reliably parry the lights and it allows the lawbringer to get into combo.

The stamina I can get with. I do believe the costs of impale are a little high on parry and block. And just to keep up offense in general.

Illyrian_King
06-05-2019, 12:16 AM
So I’m commenting here just so I can understand your point. You have frivolously attacked the fact that lawbro has no hyper armor. What would lawbro do with hyper armor OUTSIDE of it being on his finisher top heavy? Or something that increased tracking couldn’t fix? Where would you put the armor? Starting heavy? We have enough of that right now. Plus you have an armored bash, how many character can say they have that? And it’s available from neutral and mid combo.

If you block top then you negate the 400ms but then you have the side lights with enhanced property. Sure you can react to them but what if they throw the occasional heavy?

Someone plays enough with it then you can’t reliably parry the lights and it allows the lawbringer to get into combo.

The stamina I can get with. I do believe the costs of impale are a little high on parry and block. And just to keep up offense in general.

Okay let me explain. If he had hyperarmour on his heavies, it wouldn't change the world for him, but in many scenarios it would be a pretty beneficial thing, if he didn't get get interrupted mid-animation. His offense is not "beasty" by any means ... if the remains get shut down too, it can really make rage.
I am not asking for insta-start hyperarmour like Hitokiri has, but maybe 300ms into the heavy. Do you have an idea how often you get interrupted by lights or external attacks in 4vs4? It isn't game breaking but quiet annoying, especially if he gets tossed around like a piece of paper while wearing all that armour. Yes it is also because of his appearance, but screw it. Why does he wear all that armour then? To get 10HP more then the classic Vanguard? If I don't mistake, Jiang Jun has the same amount of HP + Tough as Nails feat with extra HP. He and also others surpass LB.

Actually a lot of hereos have hyperarmour (maybe not always on a bash). Kensei on all his 3rd chain attacks, Raider on his 2nd and 3rd heavies, Hitokiri on all her heavy and finisher light attacks, Warlord on his 2nd heavies, Highlander on his heavies and other move. Not even to talk about Shugoki ... but it's his gimmick, so I don't blame him.
Lawbringer even lost hyperarmour on his Impale and Long Arm through this "improvements". He is pretty barebones in terms of hyperarmour compared to other heavies.
Also adding that his "armoured bash" is pure defensive tool and not applicable on in offense at all. It's way too slow.

BLocking top and reacting on 500ms lights has already proven solid for a whole month. His enhanced lights are cool, but what can you follow on it. JUST a heavy ... there is no chain light, bash or soft-feint. Just a heavy. There is no combo, since it always gets shut down at this point.

Stamina is just one of his problems and prove, that the rework was done during 1 afternoon.

Sneakly20
06-05-2019, 01:20 AM
Okay let me explain. If he had hyperarmour on his heavies, it wouldn't change the world for him, but in many scenarios it would be a pretty beneficial thing, if he didn't get get interrupted mid-animation. His offense is not "beasty" by any means ... if the remains get shut down too, it can really make rage.
I am not asking for insta-start hyperarmour like Hitokiri has, but maybe 300ms into the heavy. Do you have an idea how often you get interrupted by lights or external attacks in 4vs4? It isn't game breaking but quiet annoying, especially if he gets tossed around like a piece of paper while wearing all that armour. Yes it is also because of his appearance, but screw it. Why does he wear all that armour then? To get 10HP more then the classic Vanguard? If I don't mistake, Jiang Jun has the same amount of HP + Tough as Nails feat with extra HP. He and also others surpass LB.

Actually a lot of hereos have hyperarmour (maybe not always on a bash). Kensei on all his 3rd chain attacks, Raider on his 2nd and 3rd heavies, Hitokiri on all her heavy and finisher light attacks, Warlord on his 2nd heavies, Highlander on his heavies and other move. Not even to talk about Shugoki ... but it's his gimmick, so I don't blame him.
Lawbringer even lost hyperarmour on his Impale and Long Arm through this "improvements". He is pretty barebones in terms of hyperarmour compared to other heavies.
Also adding that his "armoured bash" is pure defensive tool and not applicable on in offense at all. It's way too slow.

BLocking top and reacting on 500ms lights has already proven solid for a whole month. His enhanced lights are cool, but what can you follow on it. JUST a heavy ... there is no chain light, bash or soft-feint. Just a heavy. There is no combo, since it always gets shut down at this point.

Stamina is just one of his problems and prove, that the rework was done during 1 afternoon.

Ah I see where you are coming from. And from a 4s perspective sure but not so much for 1s.

Health wise I do believe itís a poor argument to say he can take another attack by what the devs say. If this game needs a literal tank then I guess lawbro can be it. However you understand in this game health lead means a win if you can stall. Itís a crummy way to play at that point but thatís why lawbro jumped up competitively if I remember correctly. Nonetheless I donít particularly care for those kinds of matches so I would bump up his health more. Who knows what happens when his health gets that high. And in a way he may not need hyper armor. Yea he has the health to trade now but that also means if his health is buffed enough just general play will be easier because itíll be that much harder to kill him. Iím talking like another 40 hit points or even 50.

And I meant armor specifically on his shove. As far as I know only 3 bashes in the entire game have armor. Warden charged bash Hitokiri sweep and lawbro shove.

The shove is defensive I agree it is now a dodge attack as the light can no longer be rolled out of. However bashing from neutral isnít really his game. Mid combo sure.

Light light would be interesting because they said they wanted to avoid two fast lights for lawbro but eh. Thatís a separate argument. I would say bash after beginning side light if need be.

As for impale and long arm those are purely 4s nerfs so it isnít an insta death is some cases.

In 1s the impale punish deals 10 damage with the rest of the punish to a wall unchanged. The long arm youíd only get on a wall splat or light parry.

Light parry gives you 50 so thereís that. And maybe id they have no stamina you can long arm to knock them OOS for good measure. But thatís scenarios.

papa_joseph1
06-05-2019, 02:57 AM
Of course he needs a lot more. His lights are neat now, but they aren't an opener. Blocking top and reacting on side has proven pretty sufficient for shutting his offense down. It is not just the lack of an opener. It's also about no hyperarmour, lack in stamina (just taking a parried impale and impale in general as an example), the fact you can't follow a light by anything else then a parry guaranteed heavy. Not even talking about how unfluid and ugly his animations currently are.

His whole rework heavily looks a 1-afternoon job, as there are so many holes in it. So obvious things completely untouched. I don't uderstand how the same guy (or guys) could release Lawbringer and Raider rework at the same time, without reckognizing that one is still lackluster while the other is brokenly OP. How couldn't all their alarm bells ring?? :confused:

Raider is the way he is because the devs have a bais towards the vikings, we've all seen it, Lawbringer's rework was always secondary to raider, I don't blame them, LB has always been one of the hardest heroes to play and does not attract as many players as the swing like a mad man raider.

DFQN1
06-05-2019, 09:50 AM
He lost his uniqueness maybe after Hitokiri release. If we look at Shugoki apart from other heroes, at old Shugoki and at new Shugoki, then he lost nothing. He was trader, he is still trader. He was ganker, he is still quite good ganker. The only problem of rework that he still have no viable offence or at least roll-punish, but it isn't about his uniquenesses. Regarding uniquenesses and keeping character identity it is one of the best reworks.

He definitely lost his uniqueness.
He is a trader but before his rework he could trade with bashes. Pre rework he could do hyperarmor gbs. Pre rework he had a 60 dmg unblockable. Pre rework he had a one shot ability.
So yes, he lost his uniqueness. His foundation. And that makes me sad. The new Shugoki is boring to play because his skill cap was set from 100 to 0. The old Shugoki was great. All they needed to do was to adjust his fundamental features to make it more fair in some way. Buffs on the one hand and adjustments on the other. But they didn't. They completely removed his foundation and core mechanics. I'm actually a bit worried about next reworks. Espacially Centurion's.