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stalkervision
05-21-2007, 03:32 PM
The 109e and I believe later models of the 109 in cockpit elevator trim was and is adjusted by moving the whole elevator. What other ww2 combat aircraft do this also? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Kurfurst__
05-21-2007, 04:10 PM
190 for certain. They had many things in common...

leitmotiv
05-21-2007, 04:18 PM
Gloster Gladiator (actually, this was a pretty archaic way of adjusting tail trim---it was used on the S.E.5a in WWI)

Jaws2002
05-21-2007, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by stalkervision:
The 109e and I believe later models of the 109 in cockpit elevator trim was and is adjusted by moving the whole elevator. What other ww2 combat aircraft do this also? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

The elevator trim in 109 and 190 wasn't adjudted by moving the elevator but by moving the horizontal stabilizer.
That's why they could trim this planes out of compression in extended dives.

stalkervision
05-21-2007, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Gloster Gladiator (actually, this was a pretty archaic way of adjusting tail trim---it was used on the S.E.5a in WWI)

Interesting...

you know why I am interested? It lead to the "All flying tail" which is what made elevator/stabliator control at supersonic speed possible.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/barrier/men.html

stalkervision
05-21-2007, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
The 109e and I believe later models of the 109 in cockpit elevator trim was and is adjusted by moving the whole elevator. What other ww2 combat aircraft do this also? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

The elevator trim in 109 and 190 wasn't adjudted by moving the elevator but by moving the horizontal stabilizer.
That's why they could trim this planes out of compression in extended dives. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the correct way to say it. That is actually what I ment. Sorry about not making it clear.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

leitmotiv
05-21-2007, 05:14 PM
This is an almighty leap. I'd beware of making connections based on logic.

stalkervision
05-21-2007, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
This is an almighty leap. I'd beware of making connections based on logic.

Yup but that's me.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It was a wonderful accidental discovery... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

stalkervision
05-21-2007, 05:21 PM
One thing I haven't been able to figure out yet is how the designers of the 109 got the whole tailplane to move for trim since the early versions of the 109 to the e model had struts attached to it!

Taylortony
05-21-2007, 05:27 PM
The Mooney goes one step further, the trim pivots the whole back end of the aircraft just forward of the horizontal and vertical tailplanes...so it may well have been along those lines

FoolTrottel
05-21-2007, 05:29 PM
One tends to think the struts were added to get more stability into it....

In wanting to make the thing more flexible, one only needs to remove them struts! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Now that's logic!

stalkervision
05-21-2007, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Taylortony:
The Mooney goes one step further, the trim pivots the whole back end of the aircraft just forward of the horizontal and vertical tailplanes...so it may well have been along those lines

wow I never knew this. I will check this out! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

stalkervision
05-21-2007, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by FoolTrottel:
One tends to think the struts were added to get more stability into it....

In wanting to make the thing more flexible, one only needs to remove them struts! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Now that's logic!

I have to find a good picture or diagram of the 109e tailplane to see how the struts were attached to be able to pivot but lend support at the same time.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

berg417448
05-21-2007, 06:04 PM
good photo of 109 tail:

http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Bf109/6111.html

HellToupee
05-21-2007, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
The 109e and I believe later models of the 109 in cockpit elevator trim was and is adjusted by moving the whole elevator. What other ww2 combat aircraft do this also? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

The elevator trim in 109 and 190 wasn't adjudted by moving the elevator but by moving the horizontal stabilizer.
That's why they could trim this planes out of compression in extended dives. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

trials state trim becomes stiff and unmoveable at speed.

PBNA-Boosher
05-21-2007, 07:02 PM
That's how my Piper Cherokee operates.

Stew278
05-21-2007, 07:21 PM
So was there some reason that WWII planes didn't have the whole stabilizer move instead of having an elevator? Or was it just that no one had thought of it at that time?

BfHeFwMe
05-21-2007, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:

trials state trim becomes stiff and unmoveable at speed.

Wrong, trials show only stick forces become increasingly heavy. This is to be expected with no tabs directly on the elevator. They make no exploration whatsoever into the phenomena of a movable stab and it's effects on pitch. Unless you know of any such documents?

The original X-1 was built by Bell with an adjustable stab and an elevator trim tab system. The first series X-1 was only adjustable externally via electric switch by ground techs. It was only when they placed a simple switch inside the cockpit the flights could succeed controlled through the mach.

The next X planes simply went to a movable stab system, eliminating the elevator, trim, and the semi-adjustable stab. The lesson had been learned. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Manu-6S
05-22-2007, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:

trials state trim becomes stiff and unmoveable at speed.

Wrong, trials show only stick forces become increasingly heavy. This is to be expected with no tabs directly on the elevator. They make no exploration whatsoever into the phenomena of a movable stab and it's effects on pitch. Unless you know of any such documents? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And not so stiff like in the sim... watch finnish accounts for this.

Then wrong stiffness in our bf109 really limit the plane's performance during BnZ.

Yellonet
05-22-2007, 03:47 AM
Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
That's how my Piper Cherokee operates. Heh.. remember that you said something about leaving the forums a while back... when I was active here. I guess you're back, cheers! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yellonet
05-22-2007, 03:48 AM
Originally posted by berg417448:
good photo of 109 tail:

http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Bf109/6111.html Hmm.. that hole in the front part of the vertical stabilizer.. is that for moving the whole vertical stabilizer? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

stalkervision
05-22-2007, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Yellonet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
good photo of 109 tail:

http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Bf109/6111.html Hmm.. that hole in the front part of the vertical stabilizer.. is that for moving the whole vertical stabilizer? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup..A metal rod that goes up and down with the trim through it. Smart observation. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

stalkervision
05-22-2007, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Stew278:
So was there some reason that WWII planes didn't have the whole stabilizer move instead of having an elevator? Or was it just that no one had thought of it at that time?

I believe it was because no one thought of it. That and they probably worried about the strength of the horizontal stabilizer if it wasn't secured enough..

stalkervision
05-22-2007, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by berg417448:
good photo of 109 tail:

http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Bf109/6111.html


Thanks a ton!!! Great photo! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

One can see the roundish mountings on the end of the struts that would be needed if the assembly rotated... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Xiolablu3
05-22-2007, 12:10 PM
DOes anyone have a good photo of the Bf109's leading edge slats please?

berg417448
05-22-2007, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
DOes anyone have a good photo of the Bf109's leading edge slats please?

Diagrams and a couple of ok photos:

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/techref/systems/control/slats/slats.htm

Xiolablu3
05-22-2007, 12:52 PM
Thanks Berg http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif))

I owe ya one

luftluuver
05-22-2007, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
DOes anyone have a good photo of the Bf109's leading edge slats please? Here you Xio
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1114844/slat1.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1114844/slat2.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1114844/slat4.jpg http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1114844/slat3.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1114844/slat5.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1114844/slat6.jpg