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View Full Version : When is the Shinobi rework ??



We.the.North
05-26-2019, 03:29 AM
With al lthe heroes getting reworks, Shinobi is getting worse and worse ...

- With all non-assassin getting +hp perk, playing Shinobi feels like playing him back when he had 90 hp.
- With all the hyper armor being given left and right, you just can't interrupt attack with quicker light anymore ...
- Backflip is getting nerfed soon
etc.

Shinobi suffers from :
- Less hp
- 2nd worst reflex guard in the game
- No tools to survive while outnumbered compared to other characters
- Very poor revenge game with a very average "knock down punish" compared to Orochi / Shaman who gets 2 heavies
- NO HEAVY FEINT GAME AT ALL with the slowest heavies in the game
- No longer could be considered having "high damage" with so many characters having garanteed combos
- Characters getting faster and faster attacks means it's more and more difficult to land those ranged GB
- And lets not forget all the weird animation bug that gets our ranged attack go right THROUGH enemies without hitting them. How many videos have we shown of Shinobi backflipping vs a Conqueror shield bash only to have your punish go through the Conq, leaving us 100% open for anything the conq wants to do afterward.
etc.


What does Shinobi have ?
- Ranged GB that only works in ganks if your teamate don't screw you over by interrupting it.
- Roll Kick to ledge ... unfortunatly even tho you throw a heavy attack, you can't roll in if the heavy is blocked.
- Quad dodge ... which if successful is just 25 damage and drains your whole stamina.
- EVERYTHING ELSE the Shinobi has is done better by more than half the other heroes.

Shinobi needs :
- WAY, WAY, WAY more stamina
- To be able to roll even if the ranged heavy is blocked
- The ranged GB desperately needs to only feed revenge if the enemy counters it. Far too often your teamate attack when you throw it and not only the ranged GB will only bounce on your target, but also feed MASSIVE revenge. It's also super annoying to land a perfect ranged GB during your enemy recovery frames only for him to proc revenge and you can't punish him.
- Kick needs to bash people even when they are in revenge. Why can Centurion do it and we can't ?? Worst, the whole roll in backflip kickass kick that would send an elephant flying across the room WHIFFS through revenge, leaving the Shinobi completely defenseless.
- While we're at it, remove the combos "double dodge + light" and "double dodge + heavy" and change them to "single dodge light" and "single dodge heavy". Those double dodge are useless in those combos and only slow us down.

Shinobi is a mess right now. I know he's not the favorite character of a lot of people, but they still need to make him a little more viable again because he's afterall part of the cast.

Col.Bullet
05-26-2019, 08:43 PM
Agreed. And fix those animation bugs, please!

FlyinBeef
05-26-2019, 09:16 PM
What does Shinobi have ?
- Ranged GB that only works in ganks if your teamate don't screw you over by interrupting it.
- Roll Kick to ledge ... unfortunatly even tho you throw a heavy attack, you can't roll in if the heavy is blocked.
- Quad dodge ... which if successful is just 25 damage and drains your whole stamina.
- EVERYTHING ELSE the Shinobi has is done better by more than half the other heroes.
Ehm, you forgot to tell he has one of the best deffence in the game with almost/completely unpunishable option selects and tools to escape out of almost all mix-ups with very safe. First he need is big nerf for turtle part of his moveset.

- Kick needs to bash people even when they are in revenge. Why can Centurion do it and we can't ??
Because Centurion wasn't reworked. Bashing people out of revenge mix-ups in very bad thing imo, it is ruining revenge conception.


- No tools to survive while outnumbered compared to other characters
He have infinite dodges, he have zone, he has good tools to stand when outnumbered, he can at least run away. Also, not every hero need gank survive tools for that matter.

I read changes about his gank and I like it, but first he need is nerf the gank itself, because it is too strong, it is one-shot for one grab, all ganks was nerfed and he need the same.

The real main thing he need except gank and turtle moveset nerf is OFFENCE, viable offence, not stamina changes, all based on offence, then we can look what to do with stamina and other little things.

TheUberDome
05-26-2019, 10:04 PM
I wouldn't hold out hope for his rework any time soon. He needs a lot of changes and I dont think that can be done in one season

Knight_Raime
05-26-2019, 10:08 PM
While I don't agree with everything you've listed (both issues he has and things he needs) I can agree that he needs to be given attention. He's probably the third dlc hero that is criminally ignored by both players and devs alike. (other two being centurion and gladiator.)

I've actually been playing him a lot more lately. I'm thinking about even making a rework suggestion thread here about him. (but rather than a total rework outline just give suggestions.)

Siegfried-Z
05-26-2019, 10:39 PM
Ehm, you forgot to tell he has one of the best deffence in the game with almost/completely unpunishable option selects and tools to escape out of almost all mix-ups with very safe. First he need is big nerf for turtle part of his moveset.

Which option select is that ?

PepsiBeastin
05-26-2019, 10:52 PM
- And lets not forget all the weird animation bug that gets our ranged attack go right THROUGH enemies without hitting them. How many videos have we shown of Shinobi backflipping vs a Conqueror shield bash only to have your punish go through the Conq, leaving us 100% open for anything the conq wants to do afterward.


He means this, for anyone curious.
https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1847758-Shinobi-ranged-guardbreak-completely-phases-through-conqueror
I've seen people defending this when it should very much be in the shinobi's favor, other attacks at this exact timing hit conqueror, only shinobi gets f**ked like this.

FlyinBeef
05-27-2019, 12:39 AM
Which option select is that ?

Charged heavy into dodge, also (I don't know how it properly works, secret techinque, not surprised you don't know), Shinobi's second diagonally dodge is GB immune and you can construct many types of dodge (4-5 for example) each of which is independent option select, he can just use them in random order like Conq use his zone, deflect or heavy and it is same or even more safe and efficient, something like this. How I said, he have diagonally dodges which are gb immune, at least less immune then usual, as I know he can double/quad dodge which let him escape Conq's and BP's bash ignoring fakes, you can just bait him and he will fly away not leaving the opportunity for gb or he can just make kick into bash/gb recovery and you won't punish it, he can completely counter ALL Warden's offence with quad dodges, can deflect light and potential heavy and then escape safely ignoring most/all potential feints and other many things. If you play character who can punish him then it will be unsafe, just quad dodge with forward dodge, deflect, -50hp. Many characters can's just catch him and begin fight! It sounds like really OP and yeah, it is really strong thing if you know how to use it, it is something brain exploding like HL's unpunishable offensive stance parry, but more efficient and which work against bashers. That is why he was top A-Tier at least in season 8 (maybe before), top A-Tier (after slide nerf) in season 9 and bottom S-Tier now.

We.the.North
05-27-2019, 12:42 AM
While I don't agree with everything you've listed (both issues he has and things he needs) I can agree that he needs to be given attention. He's probably the third dlc hero that is criminally ignored by both players and devs alike. (other two being centurion and gladiator.)

I've actually been playing him a lot more lately. I'm thinking about even making a rework suggestion thread here about him. (but rather than a total rework outline just give suggestions.)

Ya, I wrote this in 2 minutes after a rage quit when facing a team of 4 raiders in dominion bayblading their way to victory. It really struck a nerve of how much harder a shinobi has to work only to be rewarded with less damage, while having less hp etc. etc. etc.

If you do make a Shinobi rework post, I'll be sure to come by and write something with a little more efforts into it.

We.the.North
05-27-2019, 12:50 AM
Shinobi's second diagonally dodge is GB immune

From patch 1.25 :


[Adjustment] Removed side dodge’s ability to move backward at the same time as sideways.
Developer comment:By removing the backward movement, we remove the case where diagonal side-back dodge would escape even more situations than side dodge or back dodge.

The only reason to think the second dodge is GB immune is because the Shinobi moved out of range with his second dodge. Staying right out of GB reach is a very common Shinobi's tactic.

Shinobi is far from being the best dueler in this game, thus staying in 1v1 and trading blows isn't in our favor. We prefer to dash toward our ally stuck in a 1v1 and support him with ranged GB / Sickle Rain to end the fight quickly and create a "deathball" to win the match.

As for all the praise you give to our quad dashing, know that you can interrupt it with either a GB or a light during the first 2 dodge ; or you can trade with it using your own heavy ... you'll win that trade because :
#1 : Your heavy will most likely do more than our little 25 damage we get after the kick, and we have less hp than you.
#2 : After a quad dodge kick ranged heavy, we're out of stamina and you get the momentum to chip / damage us, creating an even bigger gap in our hp after the trade.

I only use the quad dodge to finish the last bar of hp of my opponent when my Shuriken aren't available.

FlyinBeef
05-27-2019, 01:25 AM
Shinobi's second diagonally dodge is GB immune
From patch 1.25 :

[Adjustment] Removed side dodge’s ability to move backward at the same time as sideways.
Developer comment:By removing the backward movement, we remove the case where diagonal side-back dodge would escape even more situations than side dodge or back dodge.

He still has quad dodges, he is still arguably S-Tier, at least near top tier character ONLY because of deffence part, if you want viable offence and other cool things of course it should be nerfed.


It's not an "option select" and there is no more diagonal back dodge in this game. Beside, any other character in the game can initiate a heavy attack to parry and cancel it after, it's not "only" for the Shinobi.
Every character can, but almost nobody (maybe Conq) can do it with this safe. Shinobi can parry with charged heavy and immediate feint it into safe quad dodge or into deflect of potential heavy (if light parried)/soft-feint(if heavy parried) or both.

Vendelkin
05-27-2019, 01:34 AM
...shinobi is no where near S tier bro. And all the stuff you talk about Lepreket is very punishable because of its stamina intensive aspect. North might not have perfectly accurate statements, but Lep you should spend some time in a training arena playing as shinobi with a friend.

That being said i agree with knight raime again. He needs some buffs and some nerfs. A lot of his moveset has really odd interactions, but at the same time is mostly extremely predictable. His deflect is IMO the absolute best in yhe game tho. And some of his more weird gimmicky interactions already are in the scope of the devs. But if he got nerfs without any buffs to his more sketchy moves he would easily fall to F tier below cent.

froggy.style
05-27-2019, 03:59 AM
problem is that shinobi is still one of the best 1v1 characters in the game. its a waste of time to do much with him. maybe tweak some numbers is about all. too many others need to catch up first.

Hormly
05-27-2019, 04:03 AM
Shinobi should not have been added to the game in the first place

froggy.style
05-27-2019, 05:18 AM
hes S tier in the right hands. he's always in the S tier from the "pro" players tier list. I'm sure they know more than most of us here.

Sweaty_Sock
05-27-2019, 08:52 AM
Shinobi is a hard counter (too hard) to many of the cast - to the point a skilled shinobi has to really do something wrong to lose (safe engage/disengage that cannot be punished by many characters, and ability to CGB the attempts to re-engage via things such as whiffed attacks etc.).

Not against all characters, but enough that you have a very large advantage right from the select screen in alot of matchups, greater than almost any other (ignoring broken characters) - thats the problem I think. Shinobi is functioning as intended, and that is broken in many matchups

The nerf is a good thing, leaves more room to play with (i.e. tweak and buff) Shinobi's other tools and bring them up to speed without relying upon dash/dash/kick into hit or disengage, stamina back, try again

Vendelkin
05-27-2019, 06:03 PM
Sorry lepreket. Based on what everyones saying im probably in the wrong. Maybe ive just never fought an exploiting shinobi. For whatever reason playing against them ive never struggled. I have played as them as well, but ive never felt OP. Probably because i dont just play an exploit method.