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View Full Version : How to deal with Hitokiri's trading



Knight_Raime
05-25-2019, 09:14 AM
Since the rest of her kit is pretty garbage right now and the thing most people are struggling with is her miss timing parries to trade on indicator I figured i'd focus on the trading aspect instead. This isn't me defending it, it needs to be nerfed. This is purely meant to be a helpful post. One universal rule of thumb is that trading is only advantageous for her when she has the health lead. Use that knowledge to your advantage. I will go by each hero:


Warden:

Side/back dodge into bash. This counters her attempts to charge every time.

Conq:

Side dodge/forward dodge into bash. Counters it like warden every single time. conq additionally has some option selects of his own that will work against mistimed parries.

Peace keeper:

Has no innate way to counter. You can attempt to dodge out of a raw heavy input into a dodge attack or soft feint into a GB if they're attempting to trade with a fully charged heavy. But neither case is it in the favor of pk.

Lawbringer:

side dodge into shove beats it and can even trade with it. Comboed shove also deters her from trying to trade mid combo because she has no answer to bashes. If you're feeling lucky you can feint a neutral or comboed heavy to parry their reaction parry attempt. Hitokiri has to feint immediately on uncharged heavies. Meaning it's fairly easy to feint bait for a strong parry punish as LB.

Centurion:

it's a fairly neutral match up here. Hitokiri can't safely attempt to parry centurion because he has chargable heavies and a soft feint to GB which will catch her if she attempts to charge at all. However Centurion can't blindly attempt to parry either. and his kick is too slow to use as a reaction punish against her charging.

Gladiator:

Dodge bash will beat her every time. Additionally gladiator can zone option select parry her.

Black prior:

Forward bash beats her everytime. chained bash will too if you whiff into it. Soft feint bash and zone are too slow for reactionary punishes. Additionally Black prior can soft feint into full block from hit confirm or whiff. Meaning if she tries to attack at all after BP has attacked there is a good chance she'll be bullwark countered.

Kensei:

Side dodge attack can avoid some of her heavies but not all of them. Can trade into it for a fairly even amount if you dodge attack into side heavy finisher. Pommel soft feint is too slow for reaction punish. forward dodge into gb or dodge into superior block (both from top heavy into dodge) can work on reads.

Shugoki:

You effectively out trade her. As you get armor on a 500ms light opener that leads into more armor. And your hug can heal you which easily keeps the health advantage over hitokiri. Also goki's headbutt is actually a decent follow up because it will stop her from being able to feint a lot by limiting her stamina. And she has no answer to bashes. Meaning she can't punish his headbutt.

Orochi:

Has no direct counters to her trade game. Delayed dodge attack to take advantage of the I frames "can" work in some cases. But it's unreliable. Storm rush isn't a viable option because she just trades into it. And riptide is easily baited.

Nobushi:

Can option select it by soft feinting an attack with hidden stance into guard break. Can also hidden stance early and then dodge out of it to get a GB. Can also dodge into hidden stance and then get a GB. Hitokiri has no way to pressure a nobushi.

Shinobi:

Dodge into kick can punish her and trade as well but for an unfavorable trade. Hitokiri has poor range and poor recovery. So if shinobi baits her into a whiff punish he gets a free GB. Roll in after ranged attack is also decent because you can either pin her with a heavy or kick her for massive stamina damage thus stalling her offense.

Aramusha:

Has no innate way to counter her trading. can trade in with dodge forward heavy but it's really reactable and nothing he can follow up with poses enough of a threat that prevents hitokiri from following up with more damage.

Raider:

Can soft feint into guard break on any heavy/zone or a stunning tap that severely reduces her offensive capability. Making reaction parries unsafe. Dodge into stunning tap can also work but can be baited. Dodge into GB can work. But can be beaten by feinting into a light or heavy. Even though raider gets armor mid chain with heavies it's still not really in his favor because hitokiri has an infinite chain.

Warlord:

Can't reaction trade. Full block is buggy. However headbutt is fast enough to interrupt her charging on reaction. Hitokiri can't punish that.

Berzerker:

side dodge attack beats her every time. can't try to whiff punish zerk because he can trade through. Deflect is actually a viable tool against hito because it interrupts her. Zerker has more armor and an infinite which means he out trades her.

Valk:

Back dodge beats all of her mix up options and varied timings. If hitokiri commits to any unblockable be it bash or attack Valk can punish it. Valk also threatens with a bash mid chain and chain finisher so trading mid combo isn't really advised for hitokiri.

Highlander:

Offensive stance squishes hitokiri in every way. Can technically out trade hitokiri damage wise. Has a safe option select of holding heavy into offensive stance as he can feint out immediately to respond to hitokiri or simply dodge into kick.

Shaman:

Has a bash that beats her everytime and can be flickered. Side dodge attack also punishes her everytime. Shaman can also maintain health lead due to blood trance.

Tiandi:

neutral light/heavy into a dodge to proc flow like water will allow you to crushing counter a trade follow up. Additionally if you buffer a palm strike after the crushing counter it beats out any varied charge time she might attempt. Because palm strike is a neutral input and you can follow up after any feint (say dragon dodge for it's I frame usage) you can technically use it to punish her attempting to charge hit you while you're dodging on a read. Tiandi can also trade into it with a forward dodge heavy which you can also use flow like water with as mentioned above. Or you can feint into palm if you read a fully charged heavy coming.

Jiang Jun:

Flowing into sifu's avoids any mid combo punishment. Can soft feint/cut short recoveries into sifu's. both things making it hard for hitokiri to try to punish or trade. Additionally he gets armor with a side dodge heavy along side some heafty I frames. and can sifu's after to avoid a comboed punishment.

Nuxia:

Has no innate way to counter her. traps are unreliable against hitokiri for the same reason they're unreliable against centurion.

Shaolin:

Has range on her. But attacking into her to try and sun kick her doesn't work out. Side dodge attack can punish her on read and due to it's low recovery is hard for hitokiri to punish at all. deflect has some use here because it has armor and can flow into qi to kick a follow up heavy if buffered.

MessirePhilippe
05-25-2019, 10:48 AM
Thank you for this interesting post mate,don't forget the superior block and deflect for certain character,but careful deflect can be stop by HA 👌

Siegfried-Z
05-25-2019, 11:02 AM
Nice post. I gess it can help many people.

I am not at home for a long time now and cannot test it myself but is Valk Shield tackle able to connect after the back Dodge ?

Because this moove is usefull to make a safe retreat but is too low to connect before opponent has time to recover sometimes.

Faithly88
05-25-2019, 12:40 PM
Nice post, All I see is a list of reasons why shes pretty unhealthy for the game : /

Knight_Raime
05-25-2019, 03:43 PM
Nice post. I gess it can help many people.

I am not at home for a long time now and cannot test it myself but is Valk Shield tackle able to connect after the back Dodge ?

Because this moove is usefull to make a safe retreat but is too low to connect before opponent has time to recover sometimes.

It can.

Vendelkin
05-25-2019, 07:22 PM
Excellent write up Raime and hopefully a very well used resource for those that struggle with her. I still play all sorts lf heroes so i personally picked up on a lot of these, but i still main aramusha and can definately say dealing with her is awful for him haha.

UbiInsulin
05-25-2019, 07:41 PM
Appreciate the work, Raime! :)

Liduras
05-25-2019, 08:17 PM
Nice post. I want to add one tip for the people who complain because "they need to turtle against Hitokiri": Hitokiri has a lot of GB vulnerability on her attacks. If you throw some GB, either the Hitokiri will start turtling or you will get a free win.

Col.Bullet
05-26-2019, 08:40 PM
Thanks for this, an interesting read.

Knight_Raime
05-26-2019, 10:10 PM
Thanks for this, an interesting read.

I kind of want to be more involved in the community again. But rather than posting full on reworks or telling the devs what kind of fixes need to be implemented into the game I want to do more lax things. Like this kinda thread. Giving advice on stuff. Maybe educational pieces. If there's anything you personally would like to see/know about please do let me know.

Vendelkin
05-27-2019, 01:54 AM
Raime you keep telling us this haha. We know :). And you are doing a great job of delivering useful and pertinant information.

Sweaty_Sock
05-27-2019, 09:38 AM
Nice list -few things I could maybe add

Cent - you can leap attack (dash forward heavy) with right timing to use your own hyperarmour to trade through a charged heavy - while this is only 20 damage the guaranteed uncharged bash + light takes it to 35 and you now have the momentum to mixup and hopefully get that 5 points damage back with interest. Good for lols when you are being ganked by a low health one (particularly if you have bounty hunter) or to take that last bit of stamina off then to OOS

PK & Orochi feint & then dodge aside as early as you are able through the uncharged attacks (early enough to just slip through) but do NOT use dodge attacks, instead stand there for a second & either dodge back into the light followup (usual response) to either deflect or slip again (works for most responses) - in either case if you nail the timing GB them if they are in recovery frames. Not easy but its the most consistent way I've learnt to make them fear just using heavy into whatever you do to give you some breathing room back into the duel, especially if you nail two full 3 stab GB's with a PK
EDIT: if they are charging then confirm the dodge attack to salvage when you can or if you were early enough/they were too slow dodge again - bit risky & you kinda have to wing it but its better than just eating 40 damage for the fun of it

nufrancis
05-28-2019, 03:40 AM
As I thought. RIP assasin main vs Hitokiri. Blow trading move is specifically made to counter assasin. I regret a bit picking Orochi after 1 year break... Its a torture playing as Orochi in current meta

Klingentaenz3r
05-28-2019, 09:17 AM
Hello folks :rolleyes:,

How nice - I also had the intend to do sth like that with video footage but basically just for aramusha. Didn't have the time yet to put sth together unfortunately.

However, here is my usual take on how to deal with trading hitokiris with Aramusha:

Utilize only the quickest chains in order to have the hitokiri in hit stagger. Sth like top light into side heavy and then heavy finisher or start with side light into top heavy. As hitokiris tend to be very responsive the heavy finisher and even chain heavies rip in more often than against normal enemies as they get less often parried. Going for deadly feints is usually the moment at the latest when a trade is going to happen, so it is only adviseable if your opponent is already conditioned or is in general prone for your mix up. After a successful mix up go for BB, either into ring the bell->GB -> wallsplat/top heavy or fury unleashed -> mix up if you have the stamina. Be aware that all your chains can't be sustained for long without eating a counter attack so concentrate on getting one till three hits in.

Note that I initiate this all most likely when an opening presents itself. From neutral and a distance I tend to test the waters out with a trade combo myself which is Rushing Wind (top, not alternate) into side heavy or for more damage a spaced side heavy from neutral (requires me to read successfully or be quicker).

If the hitokiri is more self-aware and defensively effective you would have to step up your game much more and rely to be effective with a few single hits at a time by carefully timing and spacing or by bringing in a more advance mix up game (back/sidestep whiffs for bait, as initiation but also mid chain) and using rapid heavy cancels into BB to punish their counter/trading attempts with a counter yourself.

---

As for Warden I have an additional note post trading. Stay aware that there is likely an additional attack coming. If it comes from top you can crushing counter it on reaction even without having the guard in the right position before. Nice method to break the offense and turn the tables again right away. Needs to be an heavy though. A light has to be defended normally I think due to the hit stagger the heavy caused (not sure though if she can actually do a light finisher at this point tbh).