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Okt0g00N
05-11-2019, 11:15 AM
First of all, im not saying this because he is bad, he is great, but some small adjustments would make him greater in duels and in 1 on 1 fights.

Shove
Neutral shove is now 600MS , also the animation is changed a bit, making him lower his body more so you can see it faster.
Also a UB finisher can be soft feinted into a shove that is 600MS and will track back dodges and side dodges, but won't track rolls, also animation wise makes him do a 360* then quickly shoving the enemy so it is easier to see.

Soft-Feints
Side Chain heavies can be soft-feinted into a Guardbreak, making him do a 360* like Raider does on his left heavy into Guardbreak.

Throws
After a throw, if you input a Guardbreak, it will do a fast Shove to further push the enemy and let you enter your chains.

Zone
Zone counts as a chain starter and if you parry and attack the UB zone will deal 25 damage, not 22 .

Star.Princess
05-11-2019, 11:39 AM
First adjustments he really need is inability to do 2nd chain Light after Light Riposte and inability to do light Swift Justice Light Finisher after Blind Justice (with return of old 45dmg for it), I know he is counter-attacker, but 52dmg for light parry and almost guaranteed 35dmg for heavy parry (even without walls) is too high, I am LB main, but even I understand that is too much even for counter-attacker especially with 150hp and at least some kind of initiation.

Now LB is powerfullier than Raider (not only Raider matchup, but at all), he is S-Tier, there is no need to make buffs to him in 1v1, even small, it will be just unfair, why not buff Warden or BP in 1v1?
The real adjustments he need is adjustments in 4v4 ofc with nerfs in 1v1 (including "First adjustments"), he need HA on all, chain or at least finisher heavies and all/finisher heavies hitbox change because now it looks like you play Centurion with inability to viable usage unlock-tech.

PonE-Sharp
05-11-2019, 03:48 PM
LB is powerfullier than Raider.he is S-Tier.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-AVloqiXdk0/maxresdefault.jpg

Star.Princess
05-11-2019, 05:27 PM
;););););););););););););)
Sorry, forgot that I talk with high level player who know how that game works and can judge about hero's placement in the tier list properly.

Illyrian_King
05-11-2019, 06:12 PM
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-AVloqiXdk0/maxresdefault.jpg

Oh yes dude ... oh yes ^^

UbiInsulin
05-11-2019, 07:35 PM
First adjustments he really need is inability to do 2nd chain Light after Light Riposte and inability to do light Swift Justice Light Finisher after Blind Justice (with return of old 45dmg for it), I know he is counter-attacker, but 52dmg for light parry and almost guaranteed 35dmg for heavy parry (even without walls) is too high, I am LB main, but even I understand that is too much even for counter-attacker especially with 150hp and at least some kind of initiation.

Now LB is powerfullier than Raider (not only Raider matchup, but at all), he is S-Tier, there is no need to make buffs to him in 1v1, even small, it will be just unfair, why not buff Warden or BP in 1v1?
The real adjustments he need is adjustments in 4v4 ofc with nerfs in 1v1 (including "First adjustments"), he need HA on all, chain or at least finisher heavies and all/finisher heavies hitbox change because now it looks like you play Centurion with inability to viable usage unlock-tech.

Well, for the sake of OP let's talk about their proposed changes to LB rather than pivoting to other heroes. Why is LB S-tier in your opinion as an LB main? Haven't seen a lot of folks saying this, to be honest.

KotoKuraken
05-11-2019, 09:28 PM
looooool LB being S-Tier? What a joke. Firstly, the parry punish for a light parry is 50 damage, not 52 (38 +12 = 50). Secondly, you have to get a light parry. All lights in the game are pretty much 500ms, which are often delayed down to 433ms or used after a bash, and many people will bait you into trying for a light parry. Thirdly, his heavy parry punish does not guaranteed 35 damage. It has a good chance, but not guaranteed. It's nice that he can get that much, but in order for that to be changed to just the single light riposte, he would need some actual good moves aside from parrying to get damage in. Right now his kit can be entirely avoided by exclusively backdodging, and his 700/900ms bashes can be easily interrupted or dodged since they have such a long startup. His feint game is also very weak, considering he has no softfeints and his hardfeints are still very early into the animation, making it to where it is extremely easy to see whether or not it is an actual feint.

And lastly, if there are any other players around, LB is easily poked out of his parry attempt and parry punishes, the things that make up 90-95% of his damage. He relies way too much on a mechanic that requires absolutely precise countering, and is constantly baited into getting punished far more often than he can push out that damage.

Star.Princess
05-11-2019, 11:00 PM
Why is LB S-tier in your opinion as an LB main? Haven't seen a lot of folks saying this, to be honest.
Extremely strong defense against all heroes even bashers due parry punishes and shove after dodge, big health pool, at least some kind of initiation wtih shove mix-up.


He is obviously better than all A and lower tier heroes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-RxY4U1VdA2Gy76zK7GQr5bB7VGd5SsBzgRnsz8vwh4/edit#gid=0
5:5 (or better) match-up wtih Zerker, before rework he had 4.5-5.5 match-up, now the punishes are higher, also there is 333ms unreactable top light, well-founded 5:5 match up.

5:5 (or Better) match-up with Black Prior, he can punish him for bashes better than Conq, also shove is option select because immune for gb, also it is very risky for BP to bait by unblockable, one parry and minus almost guaranteed 35dmg (almost guaranteed 55dmg with walls).

5:5 (or Better) match-up with Raider, guaranteed 50dmg for soft-feint parry, 400ms top light can interrupt Kuripita.

4:6 (5:5) match-up with Conq, can punish bashes, can option selecting bashes, can even open Conq, because higher HP, 2x punishes, for Conq it is very unsafe to option selecting.

4:6 match-up against Warden, before rework he had 3-7 match-up, now he can option selecting shoulder bash, can somehow iniciate, continue pressure after heavy for gb (small, but +).

I see no obstacles to Lawbringer being S-Tier, maybe not the #1, but #2 or #3 well justified. In addition, I will say it isn't only my opinion, it is also opinion of famous high level player tournement winner Eternity who said LB is the most powerfull 1v1 character now (and as I known Setmyx said that LB will be S-Tier, yeah, that is too).

Illyrian_King
05-11-2019, 11:35 PM
Extremely strong defense against all heroes even bashers ... at least some kind of initiation wtih shove mix-up.

Sry my dude I already stopped reading here ...

Extremely strong is wrong, since his block shove is gone. His parries are strong, but situational for heavies (need a wall) and rare for lights. Also 50dmg is nothing that other heroes do not achieve in an easier way ... Shaman's bite for a bleed or Cent for landing a ping with cutscene. There are alsp not S-tier right?

How can he defend himself against bashers? You must mistake him with Vortiger. If you talk about his dodge shove, this is a thing that also many other Heroes have or better.


There is no initionation with his shove "mix-up" ... it's too slow. People really react on it.

Star.Princess
05-11-2019, 11:38 PM
Firstly, the parry punish for a light parry is 50 damage, not 52 (38 +12 = 50).
Oops, indeed.

Thirdly, his heavy parry punish does not guaranteed 35 damage.
Doesn't guaranteed, but it is still very high for 150hp big steel turtle.

his kit can be entirely avoided by exclusively backdodging.
All JJ's kit can be entirely avoided by exclusively backdodging, JJ became bad turtle?


his 700/900ms bashes can be easily interrupted or dodged.
Firstly, shove has HA, secondaly, try to dodge when you BP or Conq and stay in the recovery of your bash.

His feint game is also very weak, considering he has no softfeints and his hardfeints are still early into the animation, making it to where it is extremely easy to see whether or not it is an actual feint.
JJ can be parried by animation/indicator too, but what will you parry if he stay and parry you? Turtle and play the timer? Side light, cheap damage, oops, you must attack or lose.

LB is easily poked out of his parry attempt and parry punishes.
That is why he had 4.5-5.5 match-up against Berserker.

KotoKuraken
05-12-2019, 01:07 AM
Oops, indeed.

Doesn't guaranteed, but it is still very high for 150hp big steel turtle.

All JJ's kit can be entirely avoided by exclusively backdodging, JJ became bad turtle?


Firstly, shove has HA, secondaly, try to dodge when you BP or Conq and stay in the recovery of your bash.

JJ can be parried by animation/indicator too, but what will you parry if he stay and parry you? Turtle and play the timer? Side light, cheap damage, oops, you must attack or lose.

That is why he had 4.5-5.5 match-up against Berserker.

Lawbringer's hyperarmor on bash does not go into effect until the last 500ms. Which is why it is always interrupted, especially by Conq's bash which is actually 500ms and always hits before Lawbringer's, even if Lawbringer counterbashes Conq can always counter his counter bash.
JJ is better because he has more range, more damage, has an actual light chain. He can get good damage and aoe damage with his parries in 360 degrees while Lawbringer cannot, and JJ HAS OTHER TOOLS TO DEAL WITH COUNTER ATTACKING on top of the insanely good parry mechanic that he possesses. In addition to parrying with good parry punishes, JJ also has a dodge attack with a soft feint and also has the benefit of Sifu Stance, which ignores attacks and regens his stamina very quickly. Lawbringer has NOTHING like that and doesn't even have any other tool to work with besides parries. JJ also has a hyperarmor heavy to help trade his attacks, something LB doesn't have at all. JJ has dramatically more tools and abilities to work with that outperform LB, which is why JJ is S tier and LB is only B+ at best.

If you think LB is S tier simply because he has one tool that only activates on parry that does the same damage as Raider casually throwing out a zone attack, I have to question your logic on hero tiers. With that logic, you'd think Peacekeeper is A+ simply because she has a single option select.

Star.Princess
05-12-2019, 01:08 AM
Extremely strong is wrong, since his block shove is gone.
Sry my dude I already stopped reading here ...

His shove after block was useless because he got nothing, absolutely nothing for it, just back dodge for the red indicator and be completely safe. It was useful only against Gladiator, Nobushi and Shaman, other heroes could attack without heavy in block or had 400ms light after heavy to safe poke into shove, then back dodge after red indicator and be safe, you did light, LB got nothing but lost chance to parry this light.


His parries are strong, but situational for heavies (need a wall) and rare for lights. Also 50dmg is nothing that other heroes do not achieve in an easier way ... Shaman's bite for a bleed or Cent for landing a ping with cutscene. There are alsp not S-tier right?
Shaman's bite doesn't guaranteed, it isn't not even 50/50, you can start attacking for example or out of lock and run away, just read and get free gb, many ways to avoid it and punish the Shaman herself. Centurion need wall close behind him, Lawbringer can ride you through all duel arena, on some maps it is impossible to avoid wall punish.



How can he defend himself against bashers? You must mistake him with Vortiger. If you talk about his dodge shove, this is a thing that also many other Heroes have or better.
The bashers was the general LB's problem, not it is fixed, he can stand against bashers, he can punish them.



There is no initionation with his shove "mix-up" ... it's too slow. People really react on it.
I know that there are some people who can react to it constantly, but not every high level player can do such and misses 433ms bashes, it is iniciation, mediocre, but iniciation.

KotoKuraken
05-12-2019, 02:30 AM
Even top tier players like Faraam agree the Lawbringer rework did nothing for him. He literally has new video called "Checking out the new Lawbringer - Just OK, unfortunately"

Calling Lawbringer S tier when even all of the top tier players agree he's meh tier is insane. Faraam knows it, Flux knows it, Father Law knows it, Infinite knows it, Kenzo knows it, even freaking Spliced knows it

Star.Princess
05-12-2019, 03:04 AM
He can get good damage and aoe damage with his parries in 360 degrees while Lawbringer cannot.
We are talking about duel tier list, how 360 degrees parries will help JJ in duel?


Lawbringer has NOTHING like that and doesn't even have any other tool to work with besides parries.
He doesn't need something else, hp, top light, shove and insane parry punishes which just give more damage to opponent from his own iniciation?


JJ is S tier and LB is only B+ at best.
We are talking about tier list and you don't even know placement of the heroes, JJ was never S-Tier in duels.


If you think LB is S tier simply because he has one tool that only activates on parry that does the same damage as Raider casually throwing out a zone attack, I have to question your logic on hero tiers. With that logic, you'd think Peacekeeper is A+ simply because she has a single option select.
LB have one very powerful tool, it is parries and he doesn't sink in other aspects, why character can't be strong because he have not many tools, but one and very very strong?

Star.Princess
05-12-2019, 03:11 AM
Even top tier players like Faraam agree the Lawbringer rework did nothing for him. He literally has new video called "Checking out the new Lawbringer - Just OK, unfortunately"
Lmao, Faraam top tier player? He was never high level, he is not a noob right, but he isn't high level player.


Calling Lawbringer S tier when even all of the top tier players agree he's meh tier is insane. Faraam knows it, Flux knows it, Father Law knows it, Infinite knows it, Kenzo knows it, even freaking Spliced knows it
Flux isn't a high level player, Infinite isn't a high level player, Kenzo isn't a high level player, Spliced as I know is high level player, yeah, he is, Father Law?
The real top players put old Lawbringer in bottom A-Tier, yeah, meh tier or how you said?

Drakeawish
05-12-2019, 04:37 PM
Extremely strong defense against all heroes even bashers Not even close bud.

C4rmine52
05-12-2019, 08:09 PM
We are talking about duel tier list, how 360 degrees parries will help JJ in duel?


He doesn't need something else, hp, top light, shove and insane parry punishes which just give more damage to opponent from his own iniciation?


We are talking about tier list and you don't even know placement of the heroes, JJ was never S-Tier in duels.


LB have one very powerful tool, it is parries and he doesn't sink in other aspects, why character can't be strong because he have not many tools, but one and very very strong?

laughs to death

ArchDukeInstinct
05-12-2019, 08:33 PM
If Lawbringer doesn't have superb bash defense now, then who the hell does?

Illyrian_King
05-12-2019, 08:41 PM
If Lawbringer doesn't have superb bash defense now, then who the hell does?

Vortiger?

Warden with even 40dmg if fully charged shoulder, Conq, Raider, Kensei, Shinobi ... just to mention a few.




Lmao, Faraam top tier player? He was never high level, he is not a noob right, but he isn't high level player.


Flux isn't a high level player, Infinite isn't a high level player, Kenzo isn't a high level player, Spliced as I know is high level player, yeah, he is, Father Law?
The real top players put old Lawbringer in bottom A-Tier, yeah, meh tier or how you said?

Yeah everybody who doesn't share your opinion is not a pro player ^^

In all honesty a was just lazzy replying to all the wrong stuff you wrote earlier, since there will always be someone opposing. If you go, there will be somebody else.
Other people already said, what I would have said on my own.

ArchDukeInstinct
05-12-2019, 08:49 PM
Vortiger?

Warden with even 40dmg if fully charged shoulder, Conq, Raider, Kensei, Shinobi ... just to mention a few.

So Conqueror's 13 damage side dodge into bash is superb bash defense but Lawbringer's 15 damage side dodge into shove light is garbage? Uh okay?

KotoKuraken
05-12-2019, 09:33 PM
Lmao, Faraam top tier player? He was never high level, he is not a noob right, but he isn't high level player.


Flux isn't a high level player, Infinite isn't a high level player, Kenzo isn't a high level player, Spliced as I know is high level player, yeah, he is, Father Law?
The real top players put old Lawbringer in bottom A-Tier, yeah, meh tier or how you said?

Faraam is literally a Grandmaster ranked duelist, and you say he's not a top tier duelist? Lol I thought you were trolling at first but now I'm fully convinced that you're just here to troll. And how the heck do you assume that having just ONE good tool is enough to make a character S tier? Especially when that one tool is the same thing that literally every other character in the game can do, and there's literally a tier list made by Grandmaster duelists that repeat how bad the character is

Illyrian_King
05-12-2019, 10:17 PM
So Conqueror's 13 damage side dodge into bash is superb bash defense but Lawbringer's 15 damage side dodge into shove light is garbage? Uh okay?

Hahaha nope they are both just average.

They point is just that this doesn't make LB good. You talk about it like this was that elite something, that pulls him out of the dirt.
I say nope. It is usefull, but nothing special considering, that Conq can use his bash also very effectively in offense among many other things.

Star.Princess
05-13-2019, 01:16 AM
Faraam is literally a Grandmaster ranked duelist, and you say he's not a top tier duelist? Lol I thought you were trolling at first but now I'm fully convinced that you're just here to troll. And how the heck do you assume that having just ONE good tool is enough to make a character S tier? Especially when that one tool is the same thing that literally every other character in the game can do, and there's literally a tier list made by Grandmaster duelists that repeat how bad the character is
Lol, now I see you don't understand anything about high level. I was grandmaster too for Gladiator in last season, all was mediocre friends party was in grandmaster, it is so easy, you just need some time and desire, being grandmaster doesn't make you high level player, it is big myth, Faraam just good player, also he have 240hz monitor which give him autowin against Monk, Conq, Zerk etc. And now 1v1 high level is almost gone, all high level players play 2v2 and 4v4 only, as I know Faraam played 4v4 tournament and suck from mediocre party lol.

ArchDukeInstinct
05-13-2019, 02:24 AM
Hahaha nope they are both just average.

They point is just that this doesn't make LB good. You talk about it like this was that elite something, that pulls him out of the dirt.
I say nope. It is usefull, but nothing special considering, that Conq can use his bash also very effectively in offense among many other things.

Yeah... I don't think people are going to let you get away with saying Conqueror only has "average" anti-bash defense.

KotoKuraken
05-13-2019, 02:42 AM
I ain't even gonna consider lepre as a valid comment anymore, literally here just for memes and trolling