PDA

View Full Version : Attempting to apply context to LB's rework.



Knight_Raime
04-27-2019, 11:53 PM
DISCLAIMER! This post is not aimed at any one individual. This post is not aimed at telling upset LB enthusiasts to "shove it." This is not a post aimed at trying to change anyone's mind. All this post is going to do is properly apply explanations or context on why these changes were made or what said changes potentially mean. (I should also note that just because i've been feverishly defending the rework the past few days i'm not saying it's perfect.)


Chains: Including the new chains LB now has:

~L>H>L
~L>H>H
~H>L>H
~H>H>H
~H>H>L

They have omitted having a L>L>H to avoid having two 400ms light attacks in a row.
The point of doing this is rather simple, It makes his chains less predictable. There was an issue with old LB where if you landed a heavy you could always parry on indicator because it was always a light follow up. Now that he has these other chains that is not possible to do on reaction. It's essentially like Valk. Not all of her chains are used all the time. But the fact that she can use so many variations means you can't simply react to indicators as far as parrying goes.



Lights:

~Side lights are enhanced.
~No more 600ms lights.
~opening top light and mid chain top light are both 400ms.

Roughly this means Lawbringer has a better opening situation compared to Shaolin. Both have a 400ms top and 500ms sides. I say better because Shaolin can be blocked externally or from neutral by resting top and switching to sides. However, LB has enhanced side lights. Meaning blocking them won't stop LB from getting into his chains. This is going to apply more pressure for people to attempt to parry LB from neutral. Which is also in LB's favor because LB has some of the best parry punishes in the game. So to put it plainly, neutral is no longer a joke for lawbringer. He won't just be parried in single engagements. and externally he won't need to rely on his gank tools.


Heavies:

~All finisher heavies are unblockable
~side heavy finishers are always 900ms. (top seems to stay at 1100ms.)
~heavies have more forward momentum.


This streamlines his finishers into mix ups. Previously you had to do specific combos in order to get these UB heavies. Easier access to an unblockable is always a good thing. This mix up is actually a viable thing to have as well. It directly compares to Warden's top heavy UB mix up (which is also 1100ms.) There are concerns for hitting him out of the mix up. As a well versed Warden let me explain to you on why that's not a thing. It involves hitstun. Lights have the lowest hit stun. If Warden leads into his UB top mix up by hitting you with a light you CAN'T recover in time to interrupt with your own light. you CAN trade with it if you posses a 400ms attack from neutral. (but it's 40 damage so no, don't do that.) If he hits you with a heavy or zone you can't trade at all. And if you block the heavy or zone you can't trade at all.

Warden can only be interrupted in his mix up if he whiffs into it. But because Warden can feint on indicator you have to throw your attack to hit him in start up. This means BEFORE you see the unblockable heavy. Now LB's side heavy finishers are 900ms. 300ms faster than this mix up. And his top heavy is the same as wardens. Meaning you'll never trade or interrupt his side heavy finisher. And you can technically trade with top if he leads into it from the light from chain shove. But only if you have a 400ms neutral attack. And you'll be able to interrupt on whiff. But you'll have to hit him in start up.


Shove mix up:

~Shove in chain can now be accessed from blocking his heavy or if he whiffs it in addition to landing a heavy.
~Shove in chain was brought up from 300ms to 500ms.
~Shove in chain now has armor.


So knowing what we know about his heavies there is a mix up here comparable to Shaolin. One way Shaolin manages to get into qi is using a raw heavy. Back walking into whiff to stay in kick range. or letting the heavy fly and get blocked and still get into qi. and of course on confirm. Shaolin's kick is 500ms and can be made faster if you slightly delay it to catch reaction dodges. LB's shove after heavy is almost exactly this. but for comparison sake the reaction time you will have is the same as Shaolin's.

How is LB's different? Well it's because LB threatens with two other things. a 400ms light or a GB. Where as shaolin really only threatens with kick or side heavy. This is significant. Because all options lead to his UB finisher mix up. Landing that 400ms top light? goes into UB mix up. Landing that shove? Top light into UB mix up. GB on the dodge? Heavy which gives shove which gives light which goes into UB mix up.

Why did they slow down his bash? It's still unreactable. However this was likely done to prevent LB from getting a confirmed bash for blocking his heavy. Heavy attacks have a harder hitstun when you land one. But still a harder stun compared to a light confirm. Just to re assure you besides shaolin's kick being 500ms both BP and conq's bashes are 500ms when buffered. So it might sound like a nerf. But it's really not. It prevents some potentially unhealthy effect for the game and allows there to be a mix up on block. (which is amazing imho.)


Parrying/zone:

~swift justice finisher is now available after landing any top heavy finisher. Not just the heavy finisher from swift justice.
~neutral zone is now 700ms from 900ms.
~make way is now unblockable and armored.
~light riposte chains into second light as well as second heavy.


Lawbringer already had strong parry punishes. Particularly getting a confirmed impale (leading to 50 damage) on a light parry and the UB heavy finisher. He gets to keep those options. But with better damage now that swift justice finisher will connect with the top UB. Light riposte blinds opponents. meaning you can threaten with a 500ms light side or a 400ms top light both mid chain in addition to throwing a heavy to parry bait an indicator parry attempt. Either way helps you go back to your UB mix up. He is also getting a better parry damage wise off of heavy parry in way of his make way being UB now. which is also good for anti gank since it has armor. And finally his zone being faster means it's available for option select parrying. This is because making the attack faster also reduces it's GB vulnerability period. 700ms is just fast enough to save you from being GBed on reaction to a zone parry attempt.


Nerfs:

~Removal of shove on block
~Impale and long arm are now interruptable

Shove on block was unhealthy. It was basically this game's problems with offense and defense wrapped up in one move. Blocking being too easy/safe/potentially rewarding.
Granted you rarely shoved when surrounded. and in single engagements you didn't shove every move. Still. Some would argue that even if it was unhealthy it created a mix up for LB. The mix up was ineffective and clunky.

LB had to have more knowledge than the opponent needed. You had to think on how you got the shove. from block or from neutral. (because different stun values.) You had to know if your opponent was going to back dodge or roll. You had to know if they were reading your animations or were going for indicators. You had to be aware of which hero you were doing this to. Assassins could potentially deflect. Heros like conq basically invalidate everything you can do because of his protected dodge and having buffered bash on dodge. etc. Few mix ups in this game are this specific on what you can and can't do. It was never as simple as "GB if you see dodge, heavy if they try to parry, light if they wait to dodge." This may work in random pub games. This wasn't the case for decent players even on console. His only reliable option was a delayed light. But you rarely find people who can perfectly delay their inputs every single time.

I both understand and agree that mix ups on a bash are far more interesting than a bash confirming damage. However I firmly believe in the new mid chain mix up that involves his bash. and it has none of the issues his shove mix up had. So i'm content. As far as the other nerfs go it's really simple. The devs do not want people constantly ccing other people with no consequence. Rather than nerfing the power of grapple based attacks again (as seen with the universal change born from how strong shaman's bite used to be,) they have taken a more proactive approach and simply let people interrupt cc attempts if they're attempted haphazardly.

Yes this is 100% a direct nerf to pub play. But as sad as that may be it's better for the overall health of the game.


Areas they can improve:

Long arm is a missed opportunity. The devs could and should have found some way to make it more usable beyond getting it confirmed off of a wall splat via impale. If LB were to get any soft feints it should be to long arm imho. Shove from neutral technically has "some" use now. As it also confirms a chained top light. But there is very little you can still do with this. I realize that speeding it up too much would encourage LB to shove in neutral a lot. However I don't think making it 700ms would have done this. and it would have at least let it be a bit more usable as a counter attack tool.


Closing thoughts/tldr:

LB now has a better neutral game than Shaolin. LB has a mix up mid chain specifically with just shove that has the reaction times of shaolin's heavy into kick. But also having the ability to threaten with a chain 400ms attack or a GB on dodge. LB has a direct comparison to finisher mix ups with Warden's top heavy UB mix up. But can be some what better in this regard due to having a 900ms option over warden's 1100ms option. LB retains his high parry punishes and technically got even better in this regard. Further cementing his defensive style in high tier play.

We still have some things we need to play to see that will impact LB's viability. How long can he delay shove? What are the recoveries on a whiffed shove? Has his recovery been brought down anywhere else? etc. Like many of you I was sad that long arm was not improved upon. If anything negative could be said about this update it would and should be this. He's a disabler hero afterall. and while one of his disabler tools is still strong his other is still not. And that's not acceptable.

Thanks for reading.

Illyrian_King
04-28-2019, 12:32 AM
Dude you fail to understand a very basic thing ... you can not open (even not with hard feinting) an oponent with heavy attacks on reliable basis. Otherwise you don't get to the 500ms bash with it's possibilities. You can just (through feinting or not) start with a light, but here comes the problem. There MUST be a heavy follow-up. You can neither bash after light nor follow with another light. There will always be heavy, and this is parry bait deluxe.

Of course you can feint that, but then you get back to zero and need to get yourself in again with a light. Is this fun or less toxic? Even telling, that in high tier play people can block top and parry side light pretty consistantly. You don't get into his offense, and even if you do, there is no way further due to a MUST heavy follow-up. You also won't bait a parry with that on even semi-decent players.

You don't really make it to the 3rd chain still after the rework, and if you do so (maybe in ganks) there is fair chance you can hit him out with a light. I have read your text about hit stun, but this is still a thing out for testing. We don't know, how much delay is between the attack to add to the called 900ms (only on side). I also don't know, if all lights hit stun you for the same duration, and IF then your calculation just applies on a hit and not block (even if enhenced light). Basically just use an unblockable side heavy (900ms) for a CHANCE of making the right guess.

You also forgot under the nerf section, that his impale also got damage nerfed om both run and parry counter.
Also his "new" zone from 25 to 22.


Conclusion: So we don't just have a rework, that didn't fix Lawbringer's most fundamental problem of not being able to initiate combat from neutral, but also a VERY boring and unspectacular rework, that doesn't fit Lawbringer's appearance and the Communities wishes AT ALL. He is a light attack dependant and backboneless 400ms balerina and feinting queen.
Furthermore he just got buffed in continuing pressure (in which he was not best at, but also not the worst), since he didn't get a solution to the light must follow with heavy problem.
He still can't initiate combat from neutral, but just keep pressuring better.

Knight_Raime
04-28-2019, 12:57 AM
Dude you fail to understand a very basic thing ... you can not open (even not with hard feinting) an oponent with heavy attacks on reliable basis. Otherwise you don't get to the 500ms bash with it's possibilities. You can just (through feinting or not) start with a light, but here comes the problem. There MUST be a heavy follow-up. You can neither bash after light nor follow with another light. There will always be heavy, and this is parry bait deluxe.

Of course you can feint that, but then you get back to zero and need to get yourself in again with a light. Is this fun or less toxic? Even telling, that in high tier play people can block top and parry side light pretty consistantly. You don't get into his offense, and even if you do, there is no way further due to a MUST heavy follow-up. You also won't bait a parry with that on even semi-decent players.

You don't really make it to the 3rd chain still after the rework, and if you do so (maybe in ganks) there is fair chance you can hit him out with a light. I have read your text about hit stun, but this is still a thing out for testing. We don't know, how much delay is between the attack to add to the called 900ms (only on side). I also don't know, if all lights hit stun you for the same duration, and IF then your calculation just applies on a hit and not block (even if enhenced light). Basically just use an unblockable side heavy (900ms) for a CHANCE of making the right guess.

You also forgot under the nerf section, that his impale also got damage nerfed om both run and parry counter.
Also his "new" zone from 25 to 22.


Conclusion: So we don't just have a rework, that didn't fix Lawbringer's most fundamental problem of not being able to initiate combat from neutral, but also a VERY boring and unspectacular rework, that doesn't fit Lawbringer's appearance and the Communities wishes AT ALL. He is a light attack dependant and backboneless 400ms balerina and feinting queen.
Furthermore he just got buffed in continuing pressure (in which he was not best at, but also not the worst), since he didn't get a solution to the light must follow with heavy problem.
He still can't initiate combat from neutral, but just keep pressuring better.

I'm aware there must be a heavy follow up. The thing is LB doesn't need to hit confirm that. He can get into his mix up wether it lands, is blocked, or he whiffs. Since there is such a huge emphasis on his heavies people will try to do 2 things. either parry his heavy, or dodge it. LB can respond to either and still get to his mix up. Here are a few examples:

EX1) LB lands his top light from neutral. Heavies. Opponent dodges. LB follows up with shove or top light=UB mix up.

EX2) LB lands his top light from neutral. Heavy feints to anticipate dodge. opponent dodges. LB GB's heavies. shoves. light=UB mix up.

EX3) LB lands his top light from neutral. heavy feints to anticipate dodge attack. Opponent dodge attacks. LB parries. does parry punish into maybe UB mix up depending on what he parried.

EX4) LB has landed a few side lights (blocked or confirmed) to condidtion opponent. LB side heavy feints to bait parry. Opponent tries to parry. LB parries. Does light riposte into top light into UB mix up.


Unless they severely increased the link time from his mid chain attacks to his heavy finishers there is no way you're going to be able to interrupt him outside whiffing. While it's technically true that all attacks have slightly different stun values the likely hood that it's significant enough to throw my numbers out the window is basically irrelevant. Like, Sure, we're still going to test it because being thorough is important. But it feels more like you're looking for ways to poke holes rather than looking at things honestly.

I didn't mention damage nerfs because they're largely irrelevant. Heavy parry into zone is still more confirmed damage than a light riposte. And LB's chain heavies, and both light/heavy finishers were buffed. More than making up for the minor damage lost from confirmed impale hit alone. You could argue that parry into impale was a decent way to finish someone off at 20 damage. I'd argue that doesn't matter. Because if it was a light parry you'd go for the guaranteed UB top heavy. and if it wasnt his new parry into zone is more damage than impale was pre nerf. So I suppose if you're scrounging for every scrap of negative you can find sure, should have mentioned it. But it's ultimately not relevant.

The only part of your conclusion i'm going to touch on is your part about them not adhereing to community wishes. It's very bold of you to speak for everyone. I can tell you from people I talk to that the only things that didn't happen that people would have liked was a better long arm. And some armor. I already agree with the long arm. And i'm not going to repeat myself about the armor. It's very clear you're not happy with LB's new kit. That's 100% fine.

But this thread was about how his kit is going to work now and why some of the aspects are potentially strong. You didn't really offer anything in the way of countering anything that i've said. Merely reminded me that parries exist. Which would be something to note. If it wasn't a heavy. and LB didn't have good parry punishes of his own. and if he had to land heavies to do his mix up. So...

Illyrian_King
04-28-2019, 01:18 AM
I'm aware there must be a heavy follow up. The thing is LB doesn't need to hit confirm that. He can get into his mix up wether it lands, is blocked, or he whiffs. Since there is such a huge emphasis on his heavies people will try to do 2 things. either parry his heavy, or dodge it. LB can respond to either and still get to his mix up. Here are a few examples:

EX1) LB lands his top light from neutral. Heavies. Opponent dodges. LB follows up with shove or top light=UB mix up.

EX2) LB lands his top light from neutral. Heavy feints to anticipate dodge. opponent dodges. LB GB's heavies. shoves. light=UB mix up.

EX3) LB lands his top light from neutral. heavy feints to anticipate dodge attack. Opponent dodge attacks. LB parries. does parry punish into maybe UB mix up depending on what he parried.

EX4) LB has landed a few side lights (blocked or confirmed) to condidtion opponent. LB side heavy feints to bait parry. Opponent tries to parry. LB parries. Does light riposte into top light into UB mix up.


Unless they severely increased the link time from his mid chain attacks to his heavy finishers there is no way you're going to be able to interrupt him outside whiffing. While it's technically true that all attacks have slightly different stun values the likely hood that it's significant enough to throw my numbers out the window is basically irrelevant. Like, Sure, we're still going to test it because being thorough is important. But it feels more like you're looking for ways to poke holes rather than looking at things honestly.

I didn't mention damage nerfs because they're largely irrelevant. Heavy parry into zone is still more confirmed damage than a light riposte. And LB's chain heavies, and both light/heavy finishers were buffed. More than making up for the minor damage lost from confirmed impale hit alone. You could argue that parry into impale was a decent way to finish someone off at 20 damage. I'd argue that doesn't matter. Because if it was a light parry you'd go for the guaranteed UB top heavy. and if it wasnt his new parry into zone is more damage than impale was pre nerf. So I suppose if you're scrounging for every scrap of negative you can find sure, should have mentioned it. But it's ultimately not relevant.

The only part of your conclusion i'm going to touch on is your part about them not adhereing to community wishes. It's very bold of you to speak for everyone. I can tell you from people I talk to that the only things that didn't happen that people would have liked was a better long arm. And some armor. I already agree with the long arm. And i'm not going to repeat myself about the armor. It's very clear you're not happy with LB's new kit. That's 100% fine.

But this thread was about how his kit is going to work now and why some of the aspects are potentially strong. You didn't really offer anything in the way of countering anything that i've said. Merely reminded me that parries exist. Which would be something to note. If it wasn't a heavy. and LB didn't have good parry punishes of his own. and if he had to land heavies to do his mix up. So...

Yes but the examples you brought are kiddy cases. Then don't dodge for heck's sake. Why even should I, when I expect a slow heavy? No, I want to parry that sweet heavy and if I see the feint, I block top and have attention for side lights ...
This examples are, what a noob behaves like. Are we talking about noob liga or at least mediocore and above? Not even talking about how this noob cases can also go wrong for the LB.

To the hit stun thing we indeed need to wait, eventhough I reclaim that you hardly make it to the 3rd chain from nuetral. So his biggest weakness is still on board, and Block Shove is gone to get another way into the flow, that already works to a certain extent.

With my claim of not fitting the Community wishes I am not wrong at all. Go and scroll through the comments of LB rework threads ... everywhere you read, what people wanted and didn't get. Hyperarmour, Longarm soft-feint, break through power, etc. Yes you mentioned all that stuff, but still you are wrong telling me, that I am wrong in this point. The Community wishes got sh*t on in this rework!

Yes this thread is about working and not fitting the appearance, but there is many points, where HUGE parts of his kit and neutral initiation don't work!
I gave you argumentation on EVERY singly point you mentioned, so don't say that. And yes LB has indeed to get heavies at least blocked, when they are 99% expected to get a chance for more juicy stuff. In ganks this is quiet possible (as it was pre-rework), but not in 1vs1.
If you want to make the current rework "work" (not cool but just work), then you would blankly need to shove after a light opener. Eventhough this is not what I or many other still would like to see.

Oddy._.
04-28-2019, 01:19 AM
You missed the point, Knight. His second must be a heavy, there must always be a heavy somewhere in the chain to even initiate his UB finishers. This in itself is the problem due to the fact that LBs heavies are very slow and predictable, at high tier he WILL be parried, especially now where if the enemy dodges they know he will shove, so why reward him by dodging when you can shut down his entire rework with a parry.

KSI_TheMadKing
04-28-2019, 01:41 AM
Guy stop replying to him. Hes not going to change his mind on the rework and we arnt either. (And we have the right not to) but everyone is just going back and forth with him. Hes literally the person who take up most of the comments in most of the threads. I see plenty of problems with this rework and I'm very disappointed as well but just arguing with one guy isnt helping our case. He literally has no say in the game as far as I know. There hasnt been any ubi employees that have commented on any of our post because were arguing if the lb moves slightly further when he does a heavy or not. Or if people will block or parry. If we want them to listen to us this isnt how it going to happen.

Oddy._.
04-28-2019, 01:48 AM
What's the point of a thread if not to talk about what's current in the game they're made for?

KSI_TheMadKing
04-28-2019, 01:53 AM
Because theres like 8 threads about this and it's always him disagreeing with us abut the same thing for like 3 pages. If you think it productive be my guest and keep telling him what wrong maybe someone fro ubi will read it and change the rework. But I'd rather do something else

Knight_Raime
04-28-2019, 01:58 AM
Yes but the examples you brought are kiddy cases. Then don't dodge for heck's sake. Why even should I, when I expect a slow heavy? No, I want to parry that sweet heavy and if I see the feint, I block top and have attention for side lights ...
This examples are, what a noob behaves like. Are we talking about noob liga or at least mediocore and above? Not even talking about how this noob cases can also go wrong for the LB.

To the hit stun thing we indeed need to wait, eventhough I reclaim that you hardly make it to the 3rd chain from nuetral. So his biggest weakness is still on board, and Block Shove is gone to get another way into the flow, that already works to a certain extent.

With my claim of not fitting the Community wishes I am not wrong at all. Go and scroll through the comments of LB rework threads ... everywhere you read, what people wanted and didn't get. Hyperarmour, Longarm soft-feint, break through power, etc. Yes you mentioned all that stuff, but still you are wrong telling me, that I am wrong in this point. The Community wishes got sh*t on in this rework!

Yes this thread is about working and not fitting the appearance, but there is many points, where HUGE parts of his kit and neutral initiation don't work!
I gave you argumentation on EVERY singly point you mentioned, so don't say that. And yes LB has indeed to get heavies at least blocked, when they are 99% expected to get a chance for more juicy stuff. In ganks this is quiet possible (as it was pre-rework), but not in 1vs1.
If you want to make the current rework "work" (not cool but just work), then you would blankly need to shove after a light opener. Eventhough this is not what I or many other still would like to see.

"why would the dodge?" Well in the case of a heavy from neutral first it could be a shove or a light. Attempting to parry that is riskier because LB has good parry punishes. Dodging is safer in most cases and could net you a GB which is a higher reward. I can give more examples of his combos if those are not to your liking.

Shove into block is no where near as reliable as 500ms enhanced lights or a 400ms top light. It just isn't. I've already explained above why shove into block is inconsistent.

I spend just as much time here as I do on the competitive reddit. Throwing every rework thread as an example of "them not listening to the community" just because they didn't follow the reworks to the T doesn't mean empirically and in such a broad application that they didn't listen to the community nor does it give you any more of a right to speak for them.

You didn't give anything. You mentioned "buh parry" preventing getting in from neutral or making mid to UB. That's basically it.

Illyrian_King
04-28-2019, 02:04 AM
Guy stop replying to him. Hes not going to change his mind on the rework and we arnt either. (And we have the right not to) but everyone is just going back and forth with him. Hes literally the person who take up most of the comments in most of the threads. I see plenty of problems with this rework and I'm very disappointed as well but just arguing with one guy isnt helping our case. He literally has no say in the game as far as I know. There hasnt been any ubi employees that have commented on any of our post because were arguing if the lb moves slightly further when he does a heavy or not. Or if people will block or parry. If we want them to listen to us this isnt how it going to happen.

I guess that guy is me then ^^

Then also don't talk to me or about me and it's simple as that. If you fail to recognize, that this a forum, then it's 100% fault.

As about me: I am very pissed about the rework and I have all right to do that in every thread I want, as long as it fits the topic, is not wrong in category and don't bump threads.

My forum activity is none of your problems.



What's the point of a thread if not to talk about what's current in the game they're made for?

Thanks! Exactly.

Knight_Raime
04-28-2019, 02:05 AM
You missed the point, Knight. His second must be a heavy, there must always be a heavy somewhere in the chain to even initiate his UB finishers. This in itself is the problem due to the fact that LBs heavies are very slow and predictable, at high tier he WILL be parried, especially now where if the enemy dodges they know he will shove, so why reward him by dodging when you can shut down his entire rework with a parry.

King already pointed this out. And as I already mentioned his mid chain isn't restricted. You can whiff into bash or light. You can have it blocked and go into bash or light. The concern you both raise only applies if I actually have to land the heavy. Which I don't. You don't always go for a parry even against slow heavy attacks. if it can be feinted you don't constantly try to parry. it's just that simple.

Easy example is current LB feinting side neutral heavies into a top or side light any chance he gets. He still manages to land those on occasion despite them being 500ms and 600ms respectively. If any of us actually played at a high level then "it'll be parried" would be far more applicable. But we don't. All of us play random pub matches in dominion 90% of the time. And in that mode people get to spam pretty much anything and have it land reasonably often. It's humorous that you guys are actually doing what competitive people are sometimes guilty of. I.E spread sheet everything. yes, on paper, an 800ms heavy is extremely obvious and can be parried no problem. Is that how things play out in the average player's experience for dominion? No.

In high tier I already acknowledged his playstyle isn't going to change beyond turtling. I also explained that they buffed his turtle capability even more by making zone option select doable and increasing the damage on some parries. Can't forget that his light riposte now chains into second attack in chain. So technically from parrying he CAN get to his UB finisher mix up.


Guy stop replying to him. Hes not going to change his mind on the rework and we arnt either. (And we have the right not to) but everyone is just going back and forth with him. Hes literally the person who take up most of the comments in most of the threads. I see plenty of problems with this rework and I'm very disappointed as well but just arguing with one guy isnt helping our case. He literally has no say in the game as far as I know. There hasnt been any ubi employees that have commented on any of our post because were arguing if the lb moves slightly further when he does a heavy or not. Or if people will block or parry. If we want them to listen to us this isnt how it going to happen.

You're not adding anything to the discussion by making this kind of comment. So you're just as guilty as they are with "pointless replies."

Oddy._.
04-28-2019, 02:06 AM
^ Exactly King, this is a free forum with people engaging in all sorts of talking points. If you don't like it then leave, otherwise it's your fault for bothering to look at it.

Sweaty_Sock
04-28-2019, 04:32 AM
Just had an interesting reading session on this one haha

-bash on block had to go
-the lights allowing chains is a real game changer - i'm looking forward to trying it out before I start raging

The wheels are in motion so roll with if for a few weeks

Goat_of_Vermund
04-28-2019, 08:33 AM
I really don't think it is safe going for that parry on the second heavy 100% of the time, especially considering how lb can feint into top light. If you want a similar mixup, there is the peacekeeper's heavy feint into zone. Granted, that's a **** mixup that eats all your stamina, but I can't imagine anyone blocking the zone after going for the heavy parry. Or there is shaolin's top light which works similarly. I threw out lb heavies against high levels, and they did not parry them all. Okay, if the midchain heavy would be chargable for hyperarmor and different timings, it would be stronger, but I don't think it's needed.

Knight_Raime
04-28-2019, 09:09 AM
I really don't think it is safe going for that parry on the second heavy 100% of the time, especially considering how lb can feint into top light. If you want a similar mixup, there is the peacekeeper's heavy feint into zone. Granted, that's a **** mixup that eats all your stamina, but I can't imagine anyone blocking the zone after going for the heavy parry. Or there is shaolin's top light which works similarly. I threw out lb heavies against high levels, and they did not parry them all. Okay, if the midchain heavy would be chargable for hyperarmor and different timings, it would be stronger, but I don't think it's needed.

Actually I use heavy feint to zone quite frequently with pk against passive players. it's quite fun. The one thing I didn't note when making comparisons to Shaolin's kit is that both shaolin's openers and mix up technically have more range than LB's mix up will have. But that's not the biggest deal really.

The_B0G_
04-28-2019, 11:03 AM
I'm not totally convinced this rebalance is bad either, opening attacks may still be an issue, but I feel like once combat is initiated, he will be harder to deal with than before.

Even just dodging obvious slower attacks into shove gets you a free light, and access to your unblockable, which forces the enemy to react, which you can cancel and top light for 400ms, or a side light that even if blocked, doesn't end your combo, or you could just GB if you notice the enemy is dodging too much.

Any GB nets a free heavy, which can be followed by a shove and a free light and then you're right back in the unblockable mixups.

I think he can turn up the pressure pretty good once the fight is initiated. I do concede that he doesn't have a solid opener, but that isn't something every other hero has either.

We need to get our hands on this before we can truly know, then we can start "the sky is falling" posts about the LB.

Ben.D.Nee
04-29-2019, 01:57 PM
800ms heavy is extremely obvious and can be parried no problem. Is that how things play out in the average player's experience for dominion?

Yes, yes it is.

As LB main, I'm fine with the rework overall, but I do wish it was easier to get combat flowing, instead of turtling. Using heavy on an anticipating opponent is guaranteed to be parried, and so it is off the table. Your argument seems to be that throwing heavies is fine when opponent is comatose, which is rarely the case. If I feint the heavy, opponent too will feint their parry attempt, 90% of the time. How it will be with faster heavies though, I have yet to see.

What I was expecting, was soft-feints. Adding soft-feints to new and existing characters has made parrying much harder, indirectly nerfing LB main strength. Giving soft-feint to LB as well might make life bearable now that heavies are a necessary part in initiating the mix-up.

Edit: note about soft-feint

Knight_Raime
04-30-2019, 09:58 AM
I'm not totally convinced this rebalance is bad either, opening attacks may still be an issue, but I feel like once combat is initiated, he will be harder to deal with than before.

Even just dodging obvious slower attacks into shove gets you a free light, and access to your unblockable, which forces the enemy to react, which you can cancel and top light for 400ms, or a side light that even if blocked, doesn't end your combo, or you could just GB if you notice the enemy is dodging too much.

Any GB nets a free heavy, which can be followed by a shove and a free light and then you're right back in the unblockable mixups.

I think he can turn up the pressure pretty good once the fight is initiated. I do concede that he doesn't have a solid opener, but that isn't something every other hero has either.

We need to get our hands on this before we can truly know, then we can start "the sky is falling" posts about the LB.

Agree. He doesn't have a guaranteed opener like say a top tier bash. But I wouldn't say he's incapable of getting in now like plenty are saying.


Yes, yes it is.

As LB main, I'm fine with the rework overall, but I do wish it was easier to get combat flowing, instead of turtling. Using heavy on an anticipating opponent is guaranteed to be parried, and so it is off the table. Your argument seems to be that throwing heavies is fine when opponent is comatose, which is rarely the case. If I feint the heavy, opponent too will feint their parry attempt, 90% of the time. How it will be with faster heavies though, I have yet to see.

What I was expecting, was soft-feints. Adding soft-feints to new and existing characters has made parrying much harder, indirectly nerfing LB main strength. Giving soft-feint to LB as well might make life bearable now that heavies are a necessary part in initiating the mix-up.

Edit: note about soft-feint

You must play a different game then me. As I only see people attempt to parry in 4's if someone is spamming buffered attacks. If people actually delay their attacks and feint more than commit most people are usually pretty cautious even in 4's. I'm not saying that throwing raw heavies constantly won't get you punished. I'm saying due to the fact that heavies are feintable and LB doesn't have to actually land a heavy (since shove and the 400ms light can come from the heavy being blocked or whiffed,) that the heavy being slow isn't a big deal. And that his mid chain won't be 100% shut out because of the slow speed.

imo the only soft feint LB rightfully could have received was a soft feint to long arm. If he got soft feints like kensei he wouldn't really be LB anymore. The devs want you to use your chains with LB. Which is why they loosened the restrictions to shove and made shove better. Giving him soft feints would go against that idea.

Goat_of_Vermund
04-30-2019, 10:44 AM
Heavy into hyperarmored longarm would indeed be a welcomed buff, but let's be honest: his defense is already among the greatests with very high damage parry punishes, he has a good counter to bashes now, and his offense became decent. If he would also have great offense too, he wouldn't be balanced.

Knight_Raime
04-30-2019, 10:53 AM
Heavy into hyperarmored longarm would indeed be a welcomed buff, but let's be honest: his defense is already among the greatests with very high damage parry punishes, he has a good counter to bashes now, and his offense became decent. If he would also have great offense too, he wouldn't be balanced.

Yeah the fact that chain shove has armor but also nets you a light that chains into your UB mix up means LB has a consistent counter to armor. Something I only put together myself yesterday.

UbiInsulin
04-30-2019, 07:33 PM
I'd already seen other folks bring up the lack of love for Long Arm, so I mentioned this concern to the team. Thanks for putting your thoughts together, Raime. :)

Ben.D.Nee
05-02-2019, 10:45 PM
You must play a different game then me.

I play For Honor, as Lawbringer main. If you're playing something different, that's on you.

SpaceJim12
05-03-2019, 12:41 AM
We could speak about reason for ages. But let me give you the result. LB now will be even more turtle, then before. I played him for two hours and there is no way to start the chain or something. Start with a light is ok, but how about people who block them? LB is too predictable. Defend top, react on sides. Easy. All mind games now crashes to his stamina managment. One light+heavy+feint+something and you are OOS. And every noob on Black Prior or this easy-cheese OP Hitokiri could spam you until death during OOS.

So turtle is the only way for LB. Nothing changes with rework. Look at Shugoki. Ubi gave him ultimate moveset with chargeable attacks, soft feints etc. Look and Valk, Warden or Kensei rework. Step forward. Even Raider got his portion of love. And LB get something just to make all his mainers to shut up. Well, maybe it's not a nerf. But it's not rework even. Playstyle on LB will stay almost the same, but without save shove on block now.

Illyrian_King
05-03-2019, 12:59 AM
We could speak about reason for ages. But let me give you the result. LB now will be even more turtle, then before. I played him for two hours and there is no way to start the chain or something. Start with a light is ok, but how about people who block them? LB is too predictable. Defend top, react on sides. Easy. All mind games now crashes to his stamina managment. One light+heavy+feint+something and you are OOS. And every noob on Black Prior or this easy-cheese OP Hitokiri could spam you until death during OOS.

So turtle is the only way for LB. Nothing changes with rework. Look at Shugoki. Ubi gave him ultimate moveset with chargeable attacks, soft feints etc. Look and Valk, Warden or Kensei rework. Step forward. Even Raider got his portion of love. And LB get something just to make all his mainers to shut up. Well, maybe it's not a nerf. But it's not rework even. Playstyle on LB will stay almost the same, but without save shove on block now.

It didn't even take people a couple of hours to learn that you can shut down his unblockable/gb "mix-up" by simply dodging back. Even if they didn't, I wasn't able to get a punish in for a single time in Duells. It's too reactable.
All in all it was just about lights ...

KotoKuraken
05-03-2019, 01:53 AM
My main fear is that even though "it will be passed on to the team", they're not going to actually listen to anything the community says (they didn't listen for this rework, why would they listen now?). Look at all the PK feedback they've gotten, look at how they've done nothing for her, despite overwhelmingly bad feedback

Knight_Raime
05-03-2019, 02:09 AM
We could speak about reason for ages. But let me give you the result. LB now will be even more turtle, then before. I played him for two hours and there is no way to start the chain or something. Start with a light is ok, but how about people who block them? LB is too predictable. Defend top, react on sides. Easy. All mind games now crashes to his stamina managment. One light+heavy+feint+something and you are OOS. And every noob on Black Prior or this easy-cheese OP Hitokiri could spam you until death during OOS.

So turtle is the only way for LB. Nothing changes with rework. Look at Shugoki. Ubi gave him ultimate moveset with chargeable attacks, soft feints etc. Look and Valk, Warden or Kensei rework. Step forward. Even Raider got his portion of love. And LB get something just to make all his mainers to shut up. Well, maybe it's not a nerf. But it's not rework even. Playstyle on LB will stay almost the same, but without save shove on block now.

To be frank I didn't expect LB to not be a turtle post rework. That's kinda his kit. I think expecting crazy soft feints or armored attacks just isn't what the devs imagine when they made LB. (mind you i'm not saying that as an excuse for having a poorly designed hero. Just trying to apply thought to reality.)

I've been finding success with new LB in a few ways. Feint into light/shove. The former is great because that 400ms option from top catches people often. And I can feint into side lights which if they're only blocked lets me mix up as well. Feint into shove is nice because shove previously didn't net you a consistent reward. Now that it does you can punish pretty much anything on dodge with either shove or a GB if the move had enough recovery.

My mid chain mix up didn't turn out the way I was hoping due to a lack of a decent delay window for shove I think. Granted the mid chain shove can't be punished by dodge GB outside raider and only about half the dodge attacks in the game can punish it on reaction. So it's a semi safe option to throw out when being ganked because it has armor or just in general. My mid chain mix up ends up being light or heavy. Which is good actually. Because the person has to actually see what you're doing instead of trying to parry on indicator (I.E LB's old mid chain problem.)

And because it's a heavy I can just delay my feint and throw a top 400ms light if the person is specifically looking to parry. So I pretty much just occasionally sprinkle in my shove during single engagements and mainly focus on that other mind game. And when i'm being ganked I use shove more liberally because it's armor lets me trade with other armored attacks and due to it being a bash will actually stop other armored attacks. So someone like zerk can't just spam out his infinite chain on me from external. It's really nice.

Unblockable chain finisher mix up ended up being about as good as I was expecting. You can feint into shove on someone who back dodges early on reaction. They can convert into a roll on orange. But since you can feint his UB heavy this kind of prevents you from being punished in most situations. Really committing to an UB is only going to happen for target swap purposes or if your opponent is OOS/Near OOS. It could be better. But i'm not miffed.

Goki's core idea remained the same with his rework. And he still struggles to open up and pressure people post rework. People give far too much praise to his rework. Sure he can actually attack now. But if someone refuses to engage he's just as helpless as he was pre rework. I'd actually say of the two reworks this season Raider got the worse one. Both his neutral and chained zone are unsafe on hit. Meaning if you hit someone with your neutral zone someone can GB you and get just as much damage or more than you did to them. And his second top light is 600ms and the finisher top light is 700ms.

Sure he got some nice things. But his gameplay is largely the same just like LB. You turtle up at higher levels and can't spam gank tools at lower level play. Raider is just feeling nicer because armor allows him to spam out attacks since no one bothers to really parry in most pub games.