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Goat_of_Vermund
04-27-2019, 11:48 AM
Lawbringer was one of my favourites and one of my three real mains (along with pk and warden) when the game started. I was sure I would choose him as my main main if he would be playable, but he was totally unplayable in 1v1 fights, considering how lacking his entire defense was. I disliked the warden changes, and what you did with peacekeeper can't be considered an update, it is quite pathetic how you threated her during season 9 after making us wait 7 months. However, I still mained her, because her playstyle was still far more interesting than lawbringer. I deleted the game a while ago because she was very lacking in fights, Black Prior became boring (mainly because of mirror matches, which are only about bashing first), Peacekeeper became too weak to fight basically anyone, and I disliked Warden's new stlye so much that I never bothered to learn his mixup, so of course, I was really interested in the rework of my last main (considering your workpace, the only hope for me to finally enjoy For Honor again).

I will have my complete opinion when I first get my hands on him, but for the first look, you did a great job. I know most people don't like what happened with him, but I think he is finally A tier with these changes, fair to fight against, and rewarding to be offensive. So, as soon as I find out what the hell is this vcruntime140.dll error I keep receiving, I redownload the game (I would still appreciete a real pk rework, but my faith is somewhat restored).


Ps.: And I think you overbuffed Raider, he shouldn't have the side dodge gb with all these buffs.

Knight_Raime
04-27-2019, 11:57 AM
Raider really didn't need all those damage buffs. Some sure. but not that many. His dodge GB really needed to go. I don't understand how the developers could let that slip.
I don't think LB is going to be that much better off in high tier play just because he still has his insane parry punishes. So there really isn't any incentive for him to not turtle and bait parries.
However I do think he'll be more approachable and usable for the majority of the player base. Since his combo structure and mix ups seem to be more stream lined into an understandable position.

I'm exited. Just because even though both the goki and valk reworks didn't go far enough they became more playable and fun for me because of their streamlined kits. And since LB is getting that treatment as well it means i'll finally be able to attack with the guy instead of just running in circles waiting to set up someone for a gank in a team fight.

Illyrian_King
04-27-2019, 01:32 PM
Lawbringer and A tier? Through what?

Through 100ms faster lights and no bounce on light?

Goat_of_Vermund
04-27-2019, 02:03 PM
400ms top light from neutral is an unreactable opener. 500 ms sidelight which continues chains is a very good opener. His heavies let you shove if not countered, or to throw a 400ms light. His shoves are hyperarmored, unpunishable and guaranteed if any bash is dodged- lb can punish conqueror and black prior now on their offense every time consistently for a decent 15 damage, that alone eliminates his worst matchups. His countergame is still great (his shove on block was toxic as hell, that was the reason I never felt bad when I bash spammed a lawbringer, everything else were shoved). So yeah, he has everything now what he needs. I even think that the longarm his it's use know with a better shove, but as I said, my final opinion depends on the gameplay.

Baggin_
04-27-2019, 02:05 PM
Raider really didn't need all those damage buffs. Some sure. but not that many. His dodge GB really needed to go. I don't understand how the developers could let that slip.
I don't think LB is going to be that much better off in high tier play just because he still has his insane parry punishes. So there really isn't any incentive for him to not turtle and bait parries.
However I do think he'll be more approachable and usable for the majority of the player base. Since his combo structure and mix ups seem to be more stream lined into an understandable position.

I'm exited. Just because even though both the goki and valk reworks didn't go far enough they became more playable and fun for me because of their streamlined kits. And since LB is getting that treatment as well it means i'll finally be able to attack with the guy instead of just running in circles waiting to set up someone for a gank in a team fight.

Agreed. he didn't need the dmg buff and since they buffed the dmg, he really didn't need the dodge gb. He's going to be a monster.

As for the devs letting it slip. I mean, by this point what do you expect? They spent a bunch of money and time making a tribute map. Does anything really surprise you?

Illyrian_King
04-27-2019, 02:40 PM
400ms top light from neutral is an unreactable opener. 500 ms sidelight which continues chains is a very good opener. His heavies let you shove if not countered, or to throw a 400ms light. His shoves are hyperarmored, unpunishable and guaranteed if any bash is dodged- lb can punish conqueror and black prior now on their offense every time consistently for a decent 15 damage, that alone eliminates his worst matchups. His countergame is still great (his shove on block was toxic as hell, that was the reason I never felt bad when I bash spammed a lawbringer, everything else were shoved). So yeah, he has everything now what he needs. I even think that the longarm his it's use know with a better shove, but as I said, my final opinion depends on the gameplay.

Yes and that's why you guard top and parry sides on reaction ... easy task for a decent player.

When you block/eat the opening light, you must follow with heavy. There is no other option with his chains. No shove or follow-up light. You know what's coming.

His shoves WERE hyperarmoured before the rework, and gave a mix-up that often lead to a heavy punish or GB instead of just a light. Also his dodge shove has no use as a neutral opener ... even after 2 years. It doesn't eliminate his worst match-ups as you said, since it also didn't earlier and there hasn't been changed anything about it in this rework.

His Block Shove was not more toxic as bashes, bites or 50/50s ... it was a thing that made him special and just got "compensated" with 100ms faster lights and no bounce on side lights. Eventhough he didn't just need compensation, but buffs in many areas, since he is fundamentally flawed.

Long arm still has no use (just this claim alone is crazy) and he got nothing. He got nothing beside 100 s faster lights, no bounce on side lights and some damage buffs/nerfs.
This is nothing!

There is no mix-up with his unblockable finisher, because it's 900ms and can get poked out due to no hyperarmour.

All he has now, is some Assassin elements with ugly fast movements not fitting his appearance at all.

Are people blind?

Goat_of_Vermund
04-27-2019, 04:28 PM
I don't know much about decent players, but against them, I would mix it up with side heavies if they would fish for my side lights. We shall figure it out once it's out.
After the side heavy, if you throw a longarm, it might work if the opponent dodges on the unblockable indicator, but this requires frame check.
You can poke out warden from the shoulderbash, it still works.
He is still defensive mainly, but has decent offense.

UbiInsulin
04-27-2019, 07:06 PM
Lawbringer was one of my favourites and one of my three real mains (along with pk and warden) when the game started. I was sure I would choose him as my main main if he would be playable, but he was totally unplayable in 1v1 fights, considering how lacking his entire defense was. I disliked the warden changes, and what you did with peacekeeper can't be considered an update, it is quite pathetic how you threated her during season 9 after making us wait 7 months. However, I still mained her, because her playstyle was still far more interesting than lawbringer. I deleted the game a while ago because she was very lacking in fights, Black Prior became boring (mainly because of mirror matches, which are only about bashing first), Peacekeeper became too weak to fight basically anyone, and I disliked Warden's new stlye so much that I never bothered to learn his mixup, so of course, I was really interested in the rework of my last main (considering your workpace, the only hope for me to finally enjoy For Honor again).

I will have my complete opinion when I first get my hands on him, but for the first look, you did a great job. I know most people don't like what happened with him, but I think he is finally A tier with these changes, fair to fight against, and rewarding to be offensive. So, as soon as I find out what the hell is this vcruntime140.dll error I keep receiving, I redownload the game (I would still appreciete a real pk rework, but my faith is somewhat restored).


Ps.: And I think you overbuffed Raider, he shouldn't have the side dodge gb with all these buffs.

Glad you like the LB changes at first glance. I'm in agreement that first glances may not mean much compared to when players actually can use the changed heroes.

For the vcruntime140.dll error, I think I'd recommend verifying your game's files. I'm not sure I've seen many reports of that bug in the past, so I'd get in touch with https://support.ubi.com if that doesn't solve the issue.

Illyrian_King
04-27-2019, 07:23 PM
I don't know much about decent players, but against them, I would mix it up with side heavies if they would fish for my side lights. We shall figure it out once it's out.
After the side heavy, if you throw a longarm, it might work if the opponent dodges on the unblockable indicator, but this requires frame check.
You can poke out warden from the shoulderbash, it still works.
He is still defensive mainly, but has decent offense.

His heavies are slow dude ... if you see that it's jusz a heavy then you feint your parry attempted heavy and block or whatever. This is basic stuff.

Longarm would definitely not be a good idea. This thing was not a valid strategy before the rework. Since there were no changes, it won't be a strategy after the rework.

You can not compare the unblockable heavy to shoulderbash with variable timings. No matter if Lawbringer hard feints into gb or lets the unblockable fly ... you can light attack him out.
If Warden doesn't charge his shoulderbash at all, many heroes are too slow to poke him out. That's why many try to dodge instead.

Goat_of_Vermund
04-27-2019, 08:45 PM
You can poke out warden every time from neutral with every hero (including the new lawbringer), but he can feint and parry you. You are too slow to do that if you are in recovery from a light, in which case, the level 1 sb must be dodged. I think the same is true about this unblockable finisher, if you do it after a hit, I doubt you can recover in time and land a 500ms light over 900ms. The guard returns in 200ms if I am correct, additional 200 is not enough.

If you go for a parry on a 500ms light, you have 300-400ms to realize your mistake, feint and recover the guard in time to block- there are optionselects around this, but with normal parries, I think it's impossible for a normal human to pull it off. And just blocking the heavies is no longer enough anyway, since he has midchain pressure now, only the best optionselects are enough against this on reaction.

I am not sure if a longarm will be confusable with a shove. That's just a wild guess, we must see it in practice.

Thanks, Ubilnsulin, I try that.

Knight_Raime
04-27-2019, 09:34 PM
You can poke out warden every time from neutral with every hero (including the new lawbringer), but he can feint and parry you. You are too slow to do that if you are in recovery from a light, in which case, the level 1 sb must be dodged. I think the same is true about this unblockable finisher, if you do it after a hit, I doubt you can recover in time and land a 500ms light over 900ms. The guard returns in 200ms if I am correct, additional 200 is not enough.

If you go for a parry on a 500ms light, you have 300-400ms to realize your mistake, feint and recover the guard in time to block- there are optionselects around this, but with normal parries, I think it's impossible for a normal human to pull it off. And just blocking the heavies is no longer enough anyway, since he has midchain pressure now, only the best optionselects are enough against this on reaction.

I am not sure if a longarm will be confusable with a shove. That's just a wild guess, we must see it in practice.

Thanks, Ubilnsulin, I try that.

Just for clarification sake.
If you are hitstuned by a light from Warden Iirc you can maybe dodge. Or use a 400ms attack as a trade.

If you get hit by a heavy you can't do anything. And if you are suffering from hitstun from blocking a heavy you can't do anything. Same applies if he zones you first on hit or block.

The only time you can legitimately interrupt wardens top heavy mix up is if he whiffs into it. But you'd have to hit him on read or hell just feint on indicator.

Keep in mind that his top ub heavy is 1100ms. Lb's side ub is 900ms. (forget top but I think it's same as wardens.) so yeah. Poking LB out of it especially if he gets to it from confirming the light off of chain bash is basically impossible.