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View Full Version : I don't think many people are happy with the lb rework



KSI_TheMadKing
04-26-2019, 01:00 AM
I'm not either, I've played him since the beginning Im rep 70 with 15,771 kills. Ive been here with the hope that you would update him to be a better version of himself. But instead we got another fast attacking assassin. With no hyper armor. Hes a big guy who should (with shear force of power) control where he is. Move people around, control points just by himself until people show up to help. Swing through attacks and crush people. His description is a counter attacker but now hes just an attacker. You gave him nothing that draws out a perry so he can get to the perrys.his heavy chains mean nothing when you cant pull of 3 in a row because you will get parried. His shove on block and shove mixup was one of the best things about him. You said it wasn't very good and didnt guarantee anything so it was useless.. what are you talking about it was one of the best parts about him and was one of if not only true mixup. (Cancel GB isnt a mixup in my opinion everyone can do it and you dont have to go for a parry ever.) Now the shove on block itself is something different entirely. And dont get me started on his lack of hyper armor. He has less now than he ever has. Please remove all his armor so he wearing nothing but a helmet. Because apparently the less actual armor you have more hyper armor you have. And his animation.... let's not go there. I know the animators have alot to do but other than fat boi he was one of the most anticipated reworks. In the end I'm just very disappointed, I was really looking forward to his rework. But all we got was.... I dont even know.

Illyrian_King
04-26-2019, 01:06 AM
10/10 points for this post.

PonE-Sharp
04-26-2019, 01:14 AM
I'm certainly not. We wanted them to rework LB, not give him all of Centurion's problems and then not fix either.

KotoKuraken
04-26-2019, 01:44 AM
Simple fix: give Lawbringer, the man wearing literally the most armor in the game, some hyperarmor on his heavies

That alone would please a lot of people. Giving hyperarmor to an assassin and a non-armored non-clothed vanguard is a sin when you don't even give any of it to the most armored guy in the game. Heck you guys even took away the only remaining hyperarmor away from the move people were expecting to become more useful, making it entirely useless.

Knight_Raime
04-26-2019, 05:13 AM
I think it's because people aren't getting how much better he is mechanically now.
I think they could have done more with him. And I wish parry into impale was removed.

But he's in a far better position now. But because he got no armored heavies and no new moves people are thinking he was gutted.
Just goes to show that most of the people who play the game don't understand the game beyond surface level information.

KSI_TheMadKing
04-26-2019, 07:00 AM
I think it's because people aren't getting how much better he is mechanically now.
I think they could have done more with him. And I wish parry into impale was removed.

But he's in a far better position now. But because he got no armored heavies and no new moves people are thinking he was gutted.
Just goes to show that most of the people who play the game don't understand the game beyond surface level information.

I do no think he was gutted I think he got alot of things that will help in like the heavy heavy and the lights that dont bounce. (Theres obviously more but I can't remember) There is alot of good things that this brings to the table. But I think they missed what made this hero who he was. As much as people didnt like it his shove on block this made him that guy that controled his area he even controled what you as a player it made them do things so he wouldn't get his shove off. Yes it made fights slower but it still controled what you did. You didnt have to be looking at him to gave him get that shove. And his mixup was great. He could flip you over his shoulder with the tail end of his pole axe. He was the biggest guy in the roster (hight wise) and it showed in his moves. His rework should have improved that not made him more spammy. You can have a 8 hit combo heavy that doubles dmg every hit but it wouldn't matter if they are blocked or parried. All I'm saying is that they missed who this hero was in this rework and I'm disappointed about it. I have no idea how he will actually work in a fight. He could be great or awful. But from what I saw he looks spammy now and I never wanted a spammy lb.

To back my point on how reworks kept the identity of the hero look at kenshi or shugoki

Kenshi was a elegant fighting with quick and deadly strikes who knew how to fight and was trained to be a great fighter and general

Shugoki is a big guy you wouldn't want to go anywhere near. You wanted to dodge his big club at all cost.

Both of the reworks made the hero better and kept there identity. Even warden kept his shoulder bash identity. Lb identity was a counter attacker. Give him something that draws out parrys.

Knight_Raime
04-26-2019, 07:16 AM
I do no think he was gutted I think he got alot of things that will help in like the heavy heavy and the lights that dont bounce. (Theres obviously more but I can't remember) There is alot of good things that this brings to the table. But I think they missed what made this hero who he was. As much as people didnt like it his shove on block made him that guy that controled his area he even controled what you as a player did by trying to do mix ups so he didnt get his shove off. You didnt have to be looking at him to gave him get that shove. And his mixup was great. He could flip you over his shoulder with the tail end of his pole axe. He was the biggest guy in the roster (hight wise) and it showed in his moves. His rework should have improved that not made him more spammy. You can have a 8 hit combo heavy that doubles dmg every hit but it wouldn't matter if they are blocked or parried. All I'm saying is that they missed who this hero was in this rework and I'm disappointed about it. I have no idea how he will actually work in a fight. He could be great or awful. But from what I saw he looks spammy now and I never wanted a spammy lb.

To back my point on how reworks kept the identity of the hero look at kenshi or shugoki

Kenshi was a elegant fighting with quick and deadly strikes who knew how to fight and was trained to be a grate fight and general

Shugoki is a big guy you want want to go anywhere near. You wanted to dodge his big club at all cost.

Both of the reworks made the hero better and kept there identity. Even warden kept his shoulder bash identity. Lb identity was a counter attacker. Give him something that draws out parrys.

LB was a defensive hero with a heavy emphasis on his chains. His chain portion of his identity was never realized because you had no reliable way from neutral to do said chains. And the chains themselves were wonky and didn't flow well. Defensively he's marked by his parry's. His parry game was buffed. He has reasonable ways to get into his offense from neutral. And he actually has mix up pressure mid chain now.

His old shove mix up wasn't a mix up at all. LB had to guess. The opponent could react to anything. Impale was always a dead move outside parry>impale>wall splat>long arm. This wasn't changed and it is indeed a sad thing that they didn't improve it.

Shove on block was bad for the game. Just as goki's passive armor. Keeping either would be a mistake.
The only other nerf he received was his ganking. Specifically you can't use his gank tools in an unorganized team fight anymore. Which wether people like it or not is healthy for the game as a whole. In coordinated groups both long arm and impale will still be useful because both still do not apply damage reduction to the enemy being effected. Meaning you can still practically delete some people if you time your attacks right.

PonE-Sharp
04-26-2019, 07:43 AM
And here comes bootlicker Raime, as expected. Ubi literally cannot make a mistake, by his standards.

Knight_Raime
04-26-2019, 08:15 AM
And here comes bootlicker Raime, as expected. Ubi literally cannot make a mistake, by his standards.

I mean, if you have ****ing eyeballs you can see in my very reply to ksi that I very clearly stated that it's ****ty that they did nothing to improve long arms viability.

But I guess people like you see what you want to see. How about learning to actually counter my arguments instead of attacking me? I don't conduct a good attitude on here as often as I should. But if you're going to try and take me down a peg maybe you should try saying something factual about me or my arguments instead of saying empirically false statements.

KSI_TheMadKing
04-26-2019, 08:21 AM
LB was a defensive hero with a heavy emphasis on his chains. His chain portion of his identity was never realized because you had no reliable way from neutral to do said chains. And the chains themselves were wonky and didn't flow well. Defensively he's marked by his parry's. His parry game was buffed. He has reasonable ways to get into his offense from neutral. And he actually has mix up pressure mid chain now.

His old shove mix up wasn't a mix up at all. LB had to guess. The opponent could react to anything. Impale was always a dead move outside parry>impale>wall splat>long arm. This wasn't changed and it is indeed a sad thing that they didn't improve it.

Shove on block was bad for the game. Just as goki's passive armor. Keeping either would be a mistake.
The only other nerf he received was his ganking. Specifically you can't use his gank tools in an unorganized team fight anymore. Which wether people like it or not is healthy for the game as a whole. In coordinated groups both long arm and impale will still be useful because both still do not apply damage reduction to the enemy being effected. Meaning you can still practically delete some people if you time your attacks right.

Lb description when you hover over the hero says "counter attacker, disabler" just like berserker is a "short range, harasser" (that's definitely true) or cent "melee-specialist, mix-up intensive". the discretion of the hero and is there base idenitly. Lb is not a "hard hitter, strong defense" like the conc or like you say he is. He never hit that hard to begin with and I'm fine with that. They gave lb nothing that gives him the "counter attacker, disabler" that he is or hes ment to be. Yes they buffed his parry, great now what did they do to draw out a parry. Gave him more heavys to faint. I could already do that. It's not any easier to get to the 3rd heavy on any hero and you think that's going to change now? People could parry his side lights before nothing going to change there just because they bounce now. No hyper armor to trade with. And I don't know about you but I used every move in his kit to the fullest. Except the one with the 700 mill light and his parry zone. I had plenty of reliable was to get finisher his chains (if you got the full damage off it is a different story) If you cant that's on you. They only took away from his disabling moves not added to them.

His shove mixup didnt leave the user guessing what the opponent was going to do. It's more the opposite. If they are low heath they are most likely goting to dodge the light so throw a GB, if you think they might dodge throw a heavy you kight get lucky I knew exactly what I was doing all the time. And you can tell what there going to do from the hero they play as well assassins and vanguards dodge on the shove alot. Heavy dont as much. This attack also lead to a him being a counter attacker again and a disaster. And his impale wasnt a dead move it was very useful and your crazy to think otherwise. I never did the impale>wall splat>long arm as it wasnt that good honestly i always did impale>wall splat>to top heavy >side light>top heavy>light finisher. That worked 65% of the time and it could turn the tables almost instantly.

His shove on block was bad for the game but his mixup was great for him which is honestly good for the game because not everything deserves to be guaranteed.

Organizes or un organized the people I encountered for the most part never used his ganking tools properly. Never swung at the right time or hit me out of my combo after the impale. I honestly wouldn't care if they took it out I never used long arm that much anyway. I dont like to gank so I try not to play toxic but that just me. I probably in the minority. But it is part of the game so... it happens.

Knight_Raime
04-26-2019, 08:44 AM
Lb description when you hover over the hero says "counter attacker, disabler" just like berserker is a "short range, harasser" (that's definitely true) or cent "melee-specialist, mix-up intensive". the discretion of the hero and is there base idenitly. Lb is not a "hard hitter, strong defense" like the conc or like you say he is. He never hit that hard to begin with. They gave lb nothing that gives him the "counter attacker, disabler" that he is or hes ment to be. Yes they buffed his parry, great now what did they do to draw out a parry. Gave him more heavys to faint. I could already do that. It's not any easier to get to the 3rd heavy on any hero and you think that's going to change now? People could parry his side lights before nothing going to change there just because they bounce now. And I don't know about you but I used every move in his kit to the fullest. Except the one with the 700 mill light and his parry zone. I had plenty of reliable was to get finisher his chains (if you got any damage of it is a different story) If you cant that's on you. They only took away from his disabling moves not added to them.

His shove mixup didnt leave the user guessing what the opponent was going to do. It's more the opposite. If they are low heath they are most likely goting to dodge the light so throw a GB, if you think they might dodge throw a heavy you kight get lucky I knew exactly what I was doing all the time. This also lead to a him being a counter attacker again and a disaster. And his impale wasnt a dead move it was very useful and your crazy to think otherwise. I never did the impale>wall splat>long arm as it wasnt that good hon I always did impale>wall splat>to top heavy >side light>top heavy>light finisher. That worked 65% of the time and it could turn the tables almost instantly.

Not sure where in my reply I mentioned that he was a hard hitter so no idea what you're getting with that. I'd imagine they consider parry's deflects and the like to be counter attacking. Dodge based moves too. Lb's shove was improved and I believe they consider shove to be a counter attack move. And so was his parry game. His zone is now a proper option select tool which means a lot for someone who's based around parrying. And his shove is much better now.

"it's not any easier to get to the third heavy now." Uh. yeah it is. Shove into light into heavy. Could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the shove pre rework lead you to an opener heavy or opener light. Where as new shove (both neutral and in chain) guarantee the second light in combo.

Uh yeah. The fact that they're enhanced is a big deal now. Goki's light was always enhanced and was at 600ms before the rework. After it's 500ms. People rarely parry it. and you can easily bait it with heavy feints. Sure, at high level play in duels it's going to mean less. But for the vast majority of the population 500ms attacks are not easily dealt with. So, maybe it won't mean much for your gameplay. But that doesn't apply to his gameplay as a whole.

Sure you did. Now getting through his chains is easier now. How's that a bad thing? Also having more chains in general improves his chain game as well. Was much more predictable before. Now not so much. Just seems like you're looking at every positive aspect and trying to dismiss it. Like I get that you didn't get everything you wanted (or maybe you got nothing,) but trying to tear down anything that's objectively good just for the sake of doing so isn't really doing your side of the argument any good.

K cool. It's great that's how his shove worked for you. That's not how it worked for good players. Buffered light or heavy off of shove was reactable through seeing indicator alone. and you can't chain into GB from shove. So there is a significant pause and animation difference if he attempts GB. The only reliable thing LB had from shove was a delayed light input. As it was not reactable and caught people who tried to back dash/dodge. At best you established a pattern of your enemies and acted accordingly. Which is good on you. What i'm saying is that it's contradictory for you to say that people will be parrying his new 500ms side lights easy but also say throwing a light or a heavy after shove isn't reactable for people. It's not like the stun from shove actually prevents your character from countering a follow up from LB.

That is a typo on my part. I meant to say long arm was always a dead move outside the specific input string I mentioned. That's my bad. Anyway, the input string I mentioned is what you'd do if you had allies near by. Because this ensures 2 instances that your allies could hit the enemy. during impale. and during long arm. The string you mentioned is what LB does if he lands an impale and has no allies near by. And as I already said. They could and should have improved long arm (referring your comment on disabler,) But I don't think it was good to allow long arm or impale be immune from outside influence. In my opinion no grapple based attack should be immune from outside influence.

It just breeds very harmful gameplay in team modes. Making this change for all grapple based attacks means they have to be used tactically when coordinating. Rather than just repeatedly going for them during a team fight. This is healthier gameplay overall.

Goat_of_Vermund
04-26-2019, 09:09 AM
I actually like this rework, even if it turns out you can roll out from everything. Definetely better than the one pk received. Just the fact that you can consistently punish any bash attempt now if you dodge and shove makes him so much better.

KSI_TheMadKing
04-26-2019, 09:18 AM
I actually like this rework, even if it turns out you can roll out from everything. Definetely better than the one pk received. Just the fact that you can consistently punish any bash attempt now if you dodge and shove makes him so much better.

Im happy you like his rework I hope it's a good one from what I've seen I dont like it. But i honestly hope i wrong about it.

KSI_TheMadKing
04-26-2019, 09:45 AM
Ok @knight raiment. I'm done with this conversation. You have a different opinion than I do and you can and will debate this alot longer than am willing to. I guess people see what they want to see. That last post was condisending and I'm not going to debate this with some who is going look at what I know as me being bad at the hero I've put the majority of my time in. I have agreed with you on alot of points (and I dont even know if you play lb) you made like how the shove on block isnt good for the game. that moves that stop a fight while you get beaten should go. It breeds harmful gameplay and has no right to be here.That more combos are good for a hero I dont think these one will help greatly but we will see. I also believe that with this rework he has lost what made him who he was. I do not think this is a straight downgrade but it wasnt an upgrade. Take this as a win if you want I don't care. If anyone else wants to have a discussion with me on this I will.

Side note your right you do not conduct a good attitude on here.

darksavior1977
04-26-2019, 03:38 PM
What I would have liked to have seen:

A reduction from a 3 hit chain to a 2 hit chain like Jiang Jung and Vortiger have gone with. 3 hit chains often load the last hit with the unblockable and it is easy to avoid/counter. True combinations can be long, however chains are much more risky that way and only work on opponents who are not paying attention or of lower skill than average.

HyperArmor on opening hits, unblockable on finishers; this is much more effective. Openers are best to trade with for timing.

Parry counters: Should be guaranteed, as the risk involved stems from the parry, and built in punishes either must do as much damage as default parry punish options, or offer some utility other than damage if they do not. Getting to the long arm off side parries would have been a cool option. Maybe a bash with the flat of the poleaxe off top parries that causes blind and some stun would be a cool option off the top parry counter. If his kit is effective otherwise he can follow these parry counters with offense, allowing these bashes and long arms to create openings for him.

The ability to soft feint heavy attacks into the impaling charge, with a reduced stamina cost than the unlocked charge attack. I get why unlock charges cost so much stamina, but off a soft feint that penalty wouldn't make sense.

All heavy attacks sped up; I get that thematically LB swinging that axe kinda slow might fit, but no character's "flavor" should justify being an ineffective fighter. Speed up the heavies to make them actually have a chance in hell of hitting someone without guaranteeing they'll be dodged or parried please.

Make his shove faster and give it some mix up potential. As it stands the mix ups are limited, and the shove from neutral or after a heavy initiates too slowly.