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View Full Version : lawbringer 'rework' is terribly dissapointing



dacinui
04-25-2019, 11:29 PM
I don't think I can call this even a 'rework'


So much hype for LB for nothing.

I expected so much more,he has NO hyperarmour move.


I don't want more damage,I want more utility and mixes...

Maybe an heavy kick? I got so hyped when i saw that kick execution,really wanted an kick for lawbringer.


So dissapointed.

Illyrian_King
04-25-2019, 11:40 PM
I hoped for the following: Hyperarmour on heavies, more damage (he got some buffs some nerfs), some kind of unparriable and increased block damage ... I mean just look at him.

mrmistark
04-25-2019, 11:51 PM
Agreed. They call LBs rework a rework? Itís more like a fricken nerf. Block on shove was the only thing he had going for him unless youíre on PC and can easily parry lights, but on console with lag itís a moot point.

His guaranteed light on shove is alright but his shove is still way slower than most others with no mix ups so itís still super risky if you miss it. To further run with this point, the armor on side lights is ok as well, but it doesnít help as intended to get to that finisher as the follow up heavy attack needed to reach the chain finisher is simply not going to happen without getting parried. This means youíre forced to try for the shove to get to your finisher, and as mentioned, without good mixups the shove posses little threat with the slow animation.

The mix up follow ups on shove were the only other thing that helped him out as your opponent had to pay special attention to a possible GB follow up. Now that the possibility of dodging it is gone, no one is going to dodge, meaning less damage in the grand scheme of things as players will stop trying to dodge after shove. His added chains are simply ok, more like a quality of life type deal. His speed boost is good as well as the damage boost but it is no where close to being a compensation for taking out the only tool that made his shove viable (block on shove).

They tried to bring his set to focus on the UB finisher, but not even the finisher provides any mix up potential other than feint GB or light while we have Kensei, shaman, conq, valk, raider, HL, Shugoki(must I list all of them? Or is my point made?) that have very viable soft feint options to their UB attacks.

They nerfed him pretty hard in 4v4 making the backwards toss and running skewer interruptible. They say itís to put it in line with Shugoki hug and shaman bite. I agree with the flip move doing this but the running skewer? It guarantees nothing unless you get them to a wall, most hits will miss while pushing them, it drains a ton of stamina, and doesnít give you health so itís not even comparable to the high reward examples given.

They should just get rid of the bombs, which was their excuse for not really giving him anything, so they can do a PROPER rework and give him a kit that is viable so they donít have to pussyfoot around giving him a good kit.

Iím legitimately pissed off at how badly this was botched. This was a hard nerf. Maybe it had the best intentions, but itís like they donít even play their own game.

Illyrian_King
04-26-2019, 12:00 AM
What also bucks me, is that even if you make it to the unblockable ... what then?
There is no mix-up. No soft-feint. Maybe you can even dodge a hard feint into light with the same timing ...

Reaching the 3rd heavy unblockable brings you next to no benefit.

The_B0G_
04-26-2019, 12:05 AM
What also bucks me, is that even if you make it to the unblockable ... what then?
There is no mix-up. No soft-feint. Maybe you can even dodge a hard feint into light with the same timing ...

Reaching the 3rd heavy unblockable brings you next to no benefit.

You can get the unblockable by shove+light+heavy and if you land the shove, the light is guarenteed, so it's not too bad. After seeing Sakura though, it would be nice to get some hyper armor on him.

Illyrian_King
04-26-2019, 12:10 AM
You can get the unblockable by shove+light+heavy and if you land the shove, the light is guarenteed, so it's not too bad. After seeing Sakura though, it would be nice to get some hyper armor on him.

Yes but what does the unblockable give you? There is no mix-up. You simply hold your guard on top, dodge it and you are fine

The_B0G_
04-26-2019, 12:16 AM
Yes but what does the unblockable give you? There is no mix-up. You simply hold your guard on top, dodge it and you are fine

True enough, but then you add in the cancel/GB mixup, and you can also cancel and side light instead of GB, even if he blocks it, it wouldn't stop the combo.

Illyrian_King
04-26-2019, 12:22 AM
True enough, but then you add in the cancel/GB mixup, and you can also cancel and side light instead of GB, even if he blocks it, it wouldn't stop the combo.

Well you are right, at least something. But still we don't know the concrete timings and since most heroes have 400-500ms lights, it would be possible to poke him out of his unprotected 3rd heavy.

KotoKuraken
04-26-2019, 01:47 AM
This isn't even a rework, it's just moving values around. It's like trying to stir a pot of alphabet soup and expecting to spell something.

He needs hyperarmor on heavies, as well as do something good with the longarm. It's not going to see any use at all anymore; might as well not even exist at this point

Oddy._.
04-26-2019, 02:16 AM
How about make heavies give hyper armor, which can be soft-feinted into longarm (Who's time is reduced by at least half) and in order to compensate only a light can be landed, but it drains the target's stamina even more making LB an ACTUAL DISABLER!

TimeToCrusade
04-26-2019, 02:44 AM
Yeah it was to be expected, they never cared much for lb like they do for let's say kensei. A propser rework was not to be expected. No HA and nothing for long arm + shove and impale nerf is almost insulting tbh. Just spam feinted unblockable into gb and yeaaaaah fun ! good gameplay !

Not even sure im gonna try it out

mrmistark
04-26-2019, 04:10 AM
Yeah, like a said, other than damage values and reduced light attack speed with HA, everything else is a nerf.

Theyíve whittled down his whole kit to be shove->light->UB mixup.

Neutral shove is basically the centurions kick: reactable and guarantees the opponent a free GB. Itís more of a hinderance to use than a strategy unless theyíre OS, but wait, we canít drain any stamina any more because shove->block is gone. Shove had a viable GB follow up option that when the opponent dodged gave you more damage and another shove for mixup, but no ones going to dodge anymore because the lights guaranteed making it an inherent nerf by default. Just had all around.

Knight_Raime
04-26-2019, 05:10 AM
Disagree. I have my own gripes with LB post rework. But he's 100% better than his older kit. Here's what he lost:

~Block into shove
~Shove "mix up"
~Brain dead ganking via impale/long arm.

That's it. Long arm and impale as far as we know still do not give the enemy damage reduction. Meaning they're still incredibly strong gank tools for teams who actually setup with each other instead of flailing their hands on their controllers.

His mid chain mix up is strong. Shove is unreactable and has armor. Lands it gives the second light in the chain at 400ms and goes straight into an unblockable mix up. Forcing you to dodge or parry attempt. Due to the heavies having a slightly longer animation (from being slower attacks) it affords you the ability to feint later which tricks people. (this is already seen with Warden's top UB heavy mix up.)

His side lights are enhanced and are 500ms. He has a 400ms neutral top light. and his heavies are slightly faster. Meaning from neutral he has semi decent feint game with the ability to get into his mix ups easier. His heavies also have more range now. Meaning people who attempt to roll his mix up mid chain might get caught by them. Or at least people who back dodge on heavy indicator.

His zone from neutral was sped up to be 700ms. making it a decent option select parry since the GB vulnerability will be lower. And his parry game is decent as well. Parry a light? Top heavy unblockable into guaranteed ending light. Parry a heavy? chain starting blinding light OR an unblockable zone that has armor. And he still has parry into impale. Which means he still has a high damage punish from any parry.

Like yes. I understand that it sucks that he didn't get armored heavies. But his heavies actually need to be respected now. And his parry game is stronger now. Part of LB's identity is parrying. He's got decent opening pressure, and good mid combo pressure. He's 100% better. Ya'll just don't grasp that somehow.

mrmistark
04-26-2019, 09:53 AM
Disagree. I have my own gripes with LB post rework. But he's 100% better than his older kit. Here's what he lost:

~Block into shove
~Shove "mix up"
~Brain dead ganking via impale/long arm.

That's it. Long arm and impale as far as we know still do not give the enemy damage reduction. Meaning they're still incredibly strong gank tools for teams who actually setup with each other instead of flailing their hands on their controllers.

His mid chain mix up is strong. Shove is unreactable and has armor. Lands it gives the second light in the chain at 400ms and goes straight into an unblockable mix up. Forcing you to dodge or parry attempt. Due to the heavies having a slightly longer animation (from being slower attacks) it affords you the ability to feint later which tricks people. (this is already seen with Warden's top UB heavy mix up.)

His side lights are enhanced and are 500ms. He has a 400ms neutral top light. and his heavies are slightly faster. Meaning from neutral he has semi decent feint game with the ability to get into his mix ups easier. His heavies also have more range now. Meaning people who attempt to roll his mix up mid chain might get caught by them. Or at least people who back dodge on heavy indicator.

His zone from neutral was sped up to be 700ms. making it a decent option select parry since the GB vulnerability will be lower. And his parry game is decent as well. Parry a light? Top heavy unblockable into guaranteed ending light. Parry a heavy? chain starting blinding light OR an unblockable zone that has armor. And he still has parry into impale. Which means he still has a high damage punish from any parry.

Like yes. I understand that it sucks that he didn't get armored heavies. But his heavies actually need to be respected now. And his parry game is stronger now. Part of LB's identity is parrying. He's got decent opening pressure, and good mid combo pressure. He's 100% better. Ya'll just don't grasp that somehow.

I get a few of your points, but the nerfs were not sufficiently compensated for how bad they were. Maybe itís different because I am on console, but Iíll rebut your points in order (donít mind caps or asterisks, they are there for emphasis not to be disrespectful):

Impale and long arm are both interruptible now. Yes you still ďCANĒ hypothetically get A good hit in if you *key word* coordinate with teammates. That is assuming you are playing with someone. This means that it ďCANĒ hypothetically be a good ganking tool still only situationally and assuming that even in those situations it goes according to plan. It made the moves high risk for low reward. You feed the enemy a substantial amount of Revenge for your teammates to *maybe* get one hit in and hope they donít hit just you instead.

His mid chain mix up really isnít strong in comparison to other characters. Itís either a light which is an easy block, or heavy (also block) with possible GB feint. Thatís not exactly crazy mix up potential. There are no soft feints, no HA, no melee options and a zone too slow to be an option too. Shove IS reactable so I donít know where youíre getting that it isnít from? I assume that was a typo or a mix up? Itís also slow which means itís easily dodged and offers no cancel. Youíre relying on a slow melee attack, easily punished by a GB and follow up heavy, to even get to you UB finisher. This isnít a problem to you? On top of this, even if you do get to the UB finisher, as you pointed out, itís incredibly slow which means itís an easy parry. It has no options other than hard feint GB or light and with the hard feint it offers enough reaction time. If dodged it gives a free GB to your opponent. AND THEN you didnít even address that it doesnít have HA. Good luck with your feint game when LITERALLY any character can just light attack you out of it before you can do any mix up anyways. Itís too slow at this point to carry the kit home.

I agree with you on the speed boost on light and heavies being a good thing, though I think catching people on back dodged and roll away is wishful thinking. Added range doesnít matter really, itís the dodge and roll timing that matters whether they get hit or not.

The zone is still slow and comparably useless except for clearing minions and the very rare multi-parries. Impale is only guaranteed for sure on a light parry also, so his parry options arenít as amazing. Donít forget the impale will still be interruptible so they nerfed this parry punish as well.

I will say I agree his heavies are to be respected more and once his chain starts, the in chain lights will be good, but he didnít really get any opening pressure (please elaborate cause I donít see a single thing he got that helps his opening other than HA on side lights), his mid chain pressure is pretty much the same, just slightly faster but not enough to be a cataclysmic change, just *slightly* better. His parry game is weaker by default because impale was nerfed. Adding HA to the zone doesnít do that much TBH. Itís definitely a small neat little buff but nothing game changing.


Bottom line is he lost shove on block, got impale (again, nerf to parry punish) and long arm nerfed heavily in exchange for: slight speed buffs, slight damage buffs, a couple more quality of life chains that donít really add much, a guaranteed light after successful UB finisher (doesnít add much considering you have to be able to land the UB), HA on a zone ONLY AFTER PARRY which doesnít add much either as you canít chain off of it and is only good very situationally, and shove after whiffed heavy.

So he lost 3 of his best tools to gain minuscule buffs that donít add much with the only good ones being shove on whiffed heavy, speed and damage boosts. Iíll leave the guaranteed light after shove out of it and chalk it up as neutral because it does make it guaranteed damage into the UB finisher. but also doesnít offer any higher reward for mind games and is still very unsafe to neutral shove.

They have forced him into being a character based around shove, which is very punishable if dodged. Iíll break it down: Sure the side lights have HA, but you must also have a second attack to get to the UB and side lights are 500ms which even on console is a manageable parry. If you try to go into shove, which is very slow considering competing melee openers, if you get dodged for a free GB it makes it super risky. I can see how if you get the ball rolling he could flow into his mix ups pretty well as you could go shove->light->UB mixup and if you get a GB rinse and repeat or if you got UB then free light at the end, but that leaves you back in a neutral game state, but thatís assuming 1) shove is successful, 2) that your option select on UB finisher is successful. I guess weíll see how well it can really flow when we get there.

They also didnít address LB hit boxes from what it seems. His wide swinging heavies only hit 1 minion at a time for the most part. I hope this is an unmentioned Inherent buff like when they did Kenseis rework. He lost key elements in his kit and didnít get a worthy compensation. This would be a different story if they gave shove a follow up on whiff so it would be harder to punish and at least *A* soft feint or two mix up from his UB finisher making it harder to react and with more options. That would have made it at least even in my eyes but as it stands itís not enough and he canít put enough stamina drain pressure anymore to really let his mixups shine while the opponent is OS. It needs more. We waited for a long time as everyone got the perfect buffs and tweaks for the most part just for our character to get barely, if anything to redeem his grossly fallen behind kit. I hope Iím proven wrong, but watching the game play and listening to them talk about the changes, I really think the character got more of a nerf than a buff.

Baggin_
04-26-2019, 12:37 PM
I think his uninterruptible side lites on block and being able to use his shove after a heavy wiff or block will be very good. A lot better than what people think anyways. Mix that with his moves being a bit faster and the 100ms guard switch buff and I think he'll be decent.

A lot better than he is now anyway. Still would of liked to see some hyper armor like everyone else.

Raider didn't need any armor imo.

Illyrian_King
04-26-2019, 12:44 PM
His mid chain mix up is strong. Shove is unreactable and has armor. Lands it gives the second light in the chain at 400ms and goes straight into an unblockable mix up. Forcing you to dodge or parry attempt. Due to the heavies having a slightly longer animation (from being slower attacks) it affords you the ability to feint later which tricks people. (this is already seen with Warden's top UB heavy mix up.)

His side lights are enhanced and are 500ms. He has a 400ms neutral top light. and his heavies are slightly faster. Meaning from neutral he has semi decent feint game with the ability to get into his mix ups easier. His heavies also have more range now. Meaning people who attempt to roll his mix up mid chain might get caught by them. Or at least people who back dodge on heavy indicator.

His zone from neutral was sped up to be 700ms. making it a decent option select parry since the GB vulnerability will be lower. And his parry game is decent as well. Parry a light? Top heavy unblockable into guaranteed ending light. Parry a heavy? chain starting blinding light OR an unblockable zone that has armor. And he still has parry into impale. Which means he still has a high damage punish from any parry.

Like yes. I understand that it sucks that he didn't get armored heavies. But his heavies actually need to be respected now. And his parry game is stronger now. Part of LB's identity is parrying. He's got decent opening pressure, and good mid combo pressure. He's 100% better. Ya'll just don't grasp that somehow.

Shove and unreactable? ^^
The even slowed it down from guaranteed to 500ms (guaranteed light, but mix-up gone.)
That things is telegraphed as heck ... look at the animation. And it still requires to get into the chain. Since LB has no way into his chain beside basic attacks there is not much variety. Guard top and parry sides on reaction --> offense shut down.

Dodge Shove is still trash as it was. Even if you get to the unblockable, you can get poked out since there is no hyperarmour. This shiit is 900ms. The unblockable/gb "mix-up" forces you to nothing. It doesn't even have a soft-feint into gb ...

The increased range is not said or confirmed, that it will catch back dodgers and not even to mention back rollers. There was nothing mentioned about undodgable properties. How can you make such claims??

Okay WOW. You call his 700ms zone (one of the worst in the game) a "decent option" ;):confused:

Also the Imaple from parry got a 10dmg nerf and te follow-up neutral top heavy still only deals 25 or 30dmg (I am not sure). It still requires a parry light, which is no easy deal. Others get that for simply charging the shoulderbash a bit longer or biting a bleeding target.

His heavies don't "need to be respected" at all, since he can't follow a neutral light by another light, but needs to throw an heavy. He can not shove after light. He is trash and what the heck are you talking about???

The_B0G_
04-26-2019, 01:11 PM
I think we'll all have to wait and see, it's hard to tell the possibilities of a kit on paper. It may be good, or it may be more or less the same.

What I think makes it look worse is that the Raider's rework looks much better.

Illyrian_King
04-26-2019, 01:27 PM
I think we'll all have to wait and see, it's hard to tell the possibilities of a kit on paper. It may be good, or it may be more or less the same.

What I think makes it look worse is that the Raider's rework looks much better.

Of course we can not make absolute claims without having it in our hands. But there are not much changes made to him in general. And every experienced LB will tell you that he was fundamentally flawed. Some number tweaks and new chains definitely don't fix that. This is why it is so easy to make pretty precise, not absolute, but pretty pretty precise claims about the quality of the rework.

And even if it miraculously worked somehow (even if VERY unlikely), it is simply not what people want to see from a 2m tall, metall wrapped bodybuilder shouting AD MORTEM, when going through the Hero roster! He is a dancing git. A feinting queen. A fragile kid without any trace of confidence. A light spammer with ugly unauthentically fast animations.
People want to see bulky and shear break through power, hyperarmour fitting his appearance, some kind of hooking (since halberds/poleaxes are made for that). This kind of stuff.

LionsFang78
04-26-2019, 01:57 PM
His rework feels a bit underwhelming, but this version of LB is much better for the game. He should be viable in 1v1's without stalling for time and kiting, and he's still strong in 4v4's

I know it's weird to some people that the large man clad in plate armor has no hyper armor, but his big and bulky design represents his large health pool. LB isn't designed to trade with people

I think initiating with him is still going to be awkward, but at least it's possible now. I would like to see his neutral shove sped up, or allow him to feint long arm, but that's about it. It just sucks that LB mains had to wait 2 years for these changes

Knight_Raime
04-26-2019, 02:21 PM
I get a few of your points, but the nerfs were not sufficiently compensated for how bad they were. Maybe itís different because I am on console, but Iíll rebut your points in order (donít mind caps or asterisks, they are there for emphasis not to be disrespectful):

Impale and long arm are both interruptible now. Yes you still ďCANĒ hypothetically get A good hit in if you *key word* coordinate with teammates. That is assuming you are playing with someone. This means that it ďCANĒ hypothetically be a good ganking tool still only situationally and assuming that even in those situations it goes according to plan. It made the moves high risk for low reward. You feed the enemy a substantial amount of Revenge for your teammates to *maybe* get one hit in and hope they donít hit just you instead.

His mid chain mix up really isnít strong in comparison to other characters. Itís either a light which is an easy block, or heavy (also block) with possible GB feint. Thatís not exactly crazy mix up potential. There are no soft feints, no HA, no melee options and a zone too slow to be an option too. Shove IS reactable so I donít know where youíre getting that it isnít from? I assume that was a typo or a mix up? Itís also slow which means itís easily dodged and offers no cancel. Youíre relying on a slow melee attack, easily punished by a GB and follow up heavy, to even get to you UB finisher. This isnít a problem to you? On top of this, even if you do get to the UB finisher, as you pointed out, itís incredibly slow which means itís an easy parry. It has no options other than hard feint GB or light and with the hard feint it offers enough reaction time. If dodged it gives a free GB to your opponent. AND THEN you didnít even address that it doesnít have HA. Good luck with your feint game when LITERALLY any character can just light attack you out of it before you can do any mix up anyways. Itís too slow at this point to carry the kit home.

I agree with you on the speed boost on light and heavies being a good thing, though I think catching people on back dodged and roll away is wishful thinking. Added range doesnít matter really, itís the dodge and roll timing that matters whether they get hit or not.

The zone is still slow and comparably useless except for clearing minions and the very rare multi-parries. Impale is only guaranteed for sure on a light parry also, so his parry options arenít as amazing. Donít forget the impale will still be interruptible so they nerfed this parry punish as well.

I will say I agree his heavies are to be respected more and once his chain starts, the in chain lights will be good, but he didnít really get any opening pressure (please elaborate cause I donít see a single thing he got that helps his opening other than HA on side lights), his mid chain pressure is pretty much the same, just slightly faster but not enough to be a cataclysmic change, just *slightly* better. His parry game is weaker by default because impale was nerfed. Adding HA to the zone doesnít do that much TBH. Itís definitely a small neat little buff but nothing game changing.


Bottom line is he lost shove on block, got impale (again, nerf to parry punish) and long arm nerfed heavily in exchange for: slight speed buffs, slight damage buffs, a couple more quality of life chains that donít really add much, a guaranteed light after successful UB finisher (doesnít add much considering you have to be able to land the UB), HA on a zone ONLY AFTER PARRY which doesnít add much either as you canít chain off of it and is only good very situationally, and shove after whiffed heavy.

So he lost 3 of his best tools to gain minuscule buffs that donít add much with the only good ones being shove on whiffed heavy, speed and damage boosts. Iíll leave the guaranteed light after shove out of it and chalk it up as neutral because it does make it guaranteed damage into the UB finisher. but also doesnít offer any higher reward for mind games and is still very unsafe to neutral shove.

They have forced him into being a character based around shove, which is very punishable if dodged. Iíll break it down: Sure the side lights have HA, but you must also have a second attack to get to the UB and side lights are 500ms which even on console is a manageable parry. If you try to go into shove, which is very slow considering competing melee openers, if you get dodged for a free GB it makes it super risky. I can see how if you get the ball rolling he could flow into his mix ups pretty well as you could go shove->light->UB mixup and if you get a GB rinse and repeat or if you got UB then free light at the end, but that leaves you back in a neutral game state, but thatís assuming 1) shove is successful, 2) that your option select on UB finisher is successful. I guess weíll see how well it can really flow when we get there.

They also didnít address LB hit boxes from what it seems. His wide swinging heavies only hit 1 minion at a time for the most part. I hope this is an unmentioned Inherent buff like when they did Kenseis rework. He lost key elements in his kit and didnít get a worthy compensation. This would be a different story if they gave shove a follow up on whiff so it would be harder to punish and at least *A* soft feint or two mix up from his UB finisher making it harder to react and with more options. That would have made it at least even in my eyes but as it stands itís not enough and he canít put enough stamina drain pressure anymore to really let his mixups shine while the opponent is OS. It needs more. We waited for a long time as everyone got the perfect buffs and tweaks for the most part just for our character to get barely, if anything to redeem his grossly fallen behind kit. I hope Iím proven wrong, but watching the game play and listening to them talk about the changes, I really think the character got more of a nerf than a buff.

I'm only responding to you because we have history. I respect you. You repeate yourself a lot and I'm on mobile about to head to sleep. So I'll respond to a few things here. And then if you want we can talk in pms. As I'm done discussing LB already. It's frankly Redick that people are talking about shove on block being so amazing as a mix up but then state in the very same breath that his new 500ms lights will always be parried and his new shove is reactable.


Anyway. Numbering the responses to you from top to bottom:

1) I still play console. I also play pc. 90% of the time I'm solo queing. I have no troubles ganking effectively with randoms. It's easy if you observe what your ally does and aid them instead of trying to force your own setup once they're on scene. Yes. The nerf made it factually harder to use LBs gank tools. And it's better for the game in the long run if all grapple based attacks can be intrupted. It forces smart use of your tools and awareness of your surroundings. Rather than being that LB or raider that ool runs in circles at a team fight repeatedly trying to grapple someone. LB has one of the very few tools in the game that doesn't apply damage reduction to enemies when they are grabbed. That's insane power.


2)mid chain has access to a 400ms light. A shove that isn't reactable and has armor that guarantees a top light that chains into chain finisher. Or a heavy. The added combos means his chains are no longer predictable. And feint into GB. His bash is 500ms. That's faster than tiandi palm and as fast as shaolin kick. You have access to the shove from hit block or whiff. Meaning he can always threaten with his shove. Yes all he can do is feint or commit to his finisher. Same thing applies to wardens top heavy finisher. And I'm pretty sure they share the same speed. Yet no one thinks his ub mix up is bad. And if yiu try to hit him out of the finisher he can just feint into neutral shove because it has armor. Or feint into parry.


3) his zone parry is UB with armor. So you can choose between different damage amounts on parry. Go for riposte into chain. Go for impale or UB top into light guarantee if light parry. Or zone parry on heavy parry to deal with being surrounded. Zone option select parry is doable now because his zone from neutral is now 700ms from 900ms. Means his GB vulnerability is around 400ms. So a feint into gb buffer would catch it. But still. I'm not saying it's an amazing option select parry. I am saying it's a viable thing to do now because of less vulnerability.



4)you're being melodramatic here. Impale and long arm are usable in the same places they were viable. They require thought now. That doesn't make them suddenly irrelevant. Shove on block isn't a nerf. You only specifically shoved very specific things. And LB had so many factors to consider for what tactic to use after shove. What hero did he shove? Is the person attempting deflects? Are they back dodging? Are they only dodging on indicator? Etc. Yes. Technically if LB knows exactly what his opponent is going to do LB had an answer. But it was far easier for LBs opponent to react to what LB was attempting to do.



Most people I've spoke to actually like what's been done with LB. We all thought having shove be the mix up tool would be cool. But we also like that shove is apart of his mid chain mix up now. Like you can very easily do what shaolin does with his kick. Buffering shove. Delaying shove or faking out the person and GBing their dodge attempt. The fact that you can do that on top of threatening to follow up with a delayed top 400ms light in the same mid chain pressure is ****ing insane.


There are still some things we won't know till we get our hands on him. Did they alter any feint windows? How Delay able is shove? Are his recoveries still the same?

I'm not saying the nerf to his gank tools are not significant. I'm saying that what LB gains makes him a far more interesting hero to play against and play as. I feel like once people actually get in there and play with his new way of playing its going to click with people.

And if he's not your thing anymore that's fine. (know some goki players that happened to.) and I sympathize. But I still think the direction he's going in is the right one. Even if they dropped the ball with making long arm usable outside impale.

Illyrian_King
04-26-2019, 02:23 PM
His rework feels a bit underwhelming, but this version of LB is much better for the game. He should be viable in 1v1's without stalling for time and kiting, and he's still strong in 4v4's

I know it's weird to some people that the large man clad in plate armor has no hyper armor, but his big and bulky design represents his large health pool. LB isn't designed to trade with people.


The new version has barely any changes. Just 100ms faster lights and not interrupted side lights and some damage buffs&nerfs. His unblockable offers no mix-up. No soft-feint and can be interrupted easily because there is no hyperarmour.

Also his healthpool is not large ... it's just a little snitch more. Most heroes are somewhere at 140-150HP and Lawbringer hast 160HP. That's really not the world.

David_gorda
04-26-2019, 02:48 PM
Very bad,
I was hoping for hyper armor heavies, softfeints and some mix ups with longarm. Poor rework.

darksavior1977
04-26-2019, 03:13 PM
What I would have liked to have seen:

A reduction from a 3 hit chain to a 2 hit chain like Jiang Jung and Vortiger have gone with. 3 hit chains often load the last hit with the unblockable and it is easy to avoid/counter. True combinations can be long, however chains are much more risky that way and only work on opponents who are not paying attention or of lower skill than average.

HyperArmor on opening hits, unblockable on finishers; this is much more effective. Openers are best to trade with for timing.

Parry counters: Should be guaranteed, as the risk involved stems from the parry, and built in punishes either must do as much damage as default parry punish options, or offer some utility other than damage if they do not. Getting to the long arm off side parries would have been a cool option. Maybe a bash with the flat of the poleaxe off top parries that causes blind and some stun would be a cool option off the top parry counter. If his kit is effective otherwise he can follow these parry counters with offense, allowing these bashes and long arms to create openings for him.

The ability to soft feint heavy attacks into the impaling charge, with a reduced stamina cost than the unlocked charge attack. I get why unlock charges cost so much stamina, but off a soft feint that penalty wouldn't make sense.

All heavy attacks sped up; I get that thematically LB swinging that axe kinda slow might fit, but no character's "flavor" should justify being an ineffective fighter. Speed up the heavies to make them actually have a chance in hell of hitting someone without guaranteeing they'll be dodged or parried please.

Make his shove faster and give it some mix up potential. As it stands the mix ups are limited, and the shove from neutral or after a heavy initiates too slowly.

Oddy._.
04-26-2019, 06:28 PM
I know it's weird to some people that the large man clad in plate armor has no hyper armor, but his big and bulky design represents his large health pool. LB isn't designed to trade with people

It's sad though when people with less armor have hyper armor, and the new hero Sakura, wears cloth and some wooden shoulder pauldrons and has a bigger health pool than LB, with Hyper armored heavies.

@Knight_Raime, about your number 4 there. What about it before took any less thought? The fact it did have hyper armor, that makes it brain dead? The time I used impale after parry was if I absolutely knew there was a wall within reach behind the target. I didn't mindlessly use it going "lalalalala!" out in the middle of the open. So the argument you make that it was brain dead gameplay just based on the fact it had hyper armor is not a strong one.

mrmistark
04-26-2019, 06:55 PM
I'm only responding to you because we have history. I respect you. You repeate yourself a lot and I'm on mobile about to head to sleep. So I'll respond to a few things here. And then if you want we can talk in pms. As I'm done discussing LB already. It's frankly Redick that people are talking about shove on block being so amazing as a mix up but then state in the very same breath that his new 500ms lights will always be parried and his new shove is reactable.


Anyway. Numbering the responses to you from top to bottom:

1) I still play console. I also play pc. 90% of the time I'm solo queing. I have no troubles ganking effectively with randoms. It's easy if you observe what your ally does and aid them instead of trying to force your own setup once they're on scene. Yes. The nerf made it factually harder to use LBs gank tools. And it's better for the game in the long run if all grapple based attacks can be intrupted. It forces smart use of your tools and awareness of your surroundings. Rather than being that LB or raider that ool runs in circles at a team fight repeatedly trying to grapple someone. LB has one of the very few tools in the game that doesn't apply damage reduction to enemies when they are grabbed. That's insane power.


2)mid chain has access to a 400ms light. A shove that isn't reactable and has armor that guarantees a top light that chains into chain finisher. Or a heavy. The added combos means his chains are no longer predictable. And feint into GB. His bash is 500ms. That's faster than tiandi palm and as fast as shaolin kick. You have access to the shove from hit block or whiff. Meaning he can always threaten with his shove. Yes all he can do is feint or commit to his finisher. Same thing applies to wardens top heavy finisher. And I'm pretty sure they share the same speed. Yet no one thinks his ub mix up is bad. And if yiu try to hit him out of the finisher he can just feint into neutral shove because it has armor. Or feint into parry.


3) his zone parry is UB with armor. So you can choose between different damage amounts on parry. Go for riposte into chain. Go for impale or UB top into light guarantee if light parry. Or zone parry on heavy parry to deal with being surrounded. Zone option select parry is doable now because his zone from neutral is now 700ms from 900ms. Means his GB vulnerability is around 400ms. So a feint into gb buffer would catch it. But still. I'm not saying it's an amazing option select parry. I am saying it's a viable thing to do now because of less vulnerability.



4)you're being melodramatic here. Impale and long arm are usable in the same places they were viable. They require thought now. That doesn't make them suddenly irrelevant. Shove on block isn't a nerf. You only specifically shoved very specific things. And LB had so many factors to consider for what tactic to use after shove. What hero did he shove? Is the person attempting deflects? Are they back dodging? Are they only dodging on indicator? Etc. Yes. Technically if LB knows exactly what his opponent is going to do LB had an answer. But it was far easier for LBs opponent to react to what LB was attempting to do.



Most people I've spoke to actually like what's been done with LB. We all thought having shove be the mix up tool would be cool. But we also like that shove is apart of his mid chain mix up now. Like you can very easily do what shaolin does with his kick. Buffering shove. Delaying shove or faking out the person and GBing their dodge attempt. The fact that you can do that on top of threatening to follow up with a delayed top 400ms light in the same mid chain pressure is ****ing insane.


There are still some things we won't know till we get our hands on him. Did they alter any feint windows? How Delay able is shove? Are his recoveries still the same?

I'm not saying the nerf to his gank tools are not significant. I'm saying that what LB gains makes him a far more interesting hero to play against and play as. I feel like once people actually get in there and play with his new way of playing its going to click with people.

And if he's not your thing anymore that's fine. (know some goki players that happened to.) and I sympathize. But I still think the direction he's going in is the right one. Even if they dropped the ball with making long arm usable outside impale.

Well I sure hope youíre right and it feels good once it comes out. Perhaps itís that next to Raider rework it looks even worse as LB had things taken away and not TOO much added.

I agree the direction itís going is healthier for the game and itís nice that he can come out of his defensive shell, but compensation wise, at least on paper, things donít look to add up. Iíd say his kit is about even on paper as it was previously tbh, but LB is defiantly one of the lowest tier characters except in a gank squad. I wish they had removed his bombs and gank tools but so they could give him extra mix up options.

The problems i see with what you brought up is that initiating the shove, where a lot of the focus stems from for the rework, is either from neutral or a whiffed Heavy. Both are pretty risky even with a speed buff. If you dodge the shove, itís a free GB->heavy. If they throw a heavy to initiate a shove in chain, itís going to be pretty obvious if whiffed, and if theyíre close enough the heavy is risky being parryable. It just seems like a good chunk of risk to initiate it for a free light. You canít follow up on a miss so itís not like the conq bash, BP bash or shinobi kick where itís nearly impossible to punish. We do have more options in chain which is good, but again, the UB finisher not having HA makes it easy to light out of. Shove initiation wonít be fast enough after a hard cancel. Youíd have about 500ms on average to hard cancel into dodge->shove initiation. I donít think thatís doable. The best hope is that they attempt a parry so you can feint GB for heavy into shove into light and continue your chain.

GB will pretty much be his #1 tool. That and top light opener.

Iím glad youíre very optimistic and I wish I was just as much. I really just donít see it being a worthy compensation of what he lost and more importantly, I donít think it will bring him up any closer in the rankings. We will have to see when he comes out exactly what the delays are like and how smooth his chains are though to fully grasp how well done or poorly the changes effected his viability.

Sweaty_Sock
04-26-2019, 06:56 PM
Just MAYBE play it before forming massive judgments

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
04-26-2019, 08:10 PM
On paper it looks disappointing and more like a renerf. I don't play Lawbringer but considering how utterly popular he is I was expecting an epic rework. Since I don't play him I'm not disappointed but confused. I thought he'd get a massive overhaul of all the characters.

IAmOddGirl
04-26-2019, 10:03 PM
I'm reserving myself to try it before I make any hasty comments about it. I will admit on paper and even in the stream I just kinda sat back and sighed, but I am still going to try it out first. No matter what He will still be my main..I'm at rep 64 with him and decided to main him the first time I launched For Honor the day it came out and saw him. I was like yeah that is my Big Boy. lol. However I have been using alot of different heros over the course of For Honor's life mainly because I was frustrated and needed a more....freeing character to use. I can do well with Lawbringer sure, if I do not mind playing kinda slow against heros like JJ, Conq, Orochi, and Shugoki. I have slaughtered those heros as well, but when I face those characters in duels when you see their rep matching yours...it's a bit more of a coin toss. I fought a JJ just today actually that I could not touch. Though it was my own fault as I wasn't turtling like I should and I was missing my light parries. But he would do that back up move like a mofo. Xbox One btw if it matters. I'm hoping for opening pressure, i didn't see much that gives that. I want to have that because honestly if you really only cared about winning and you were completely ok with 100% turtling. Lawbringer is one of the few if not the only character you can beat 100% of the time if you turtle 100% of the match..no pride kinda matches. option selects anytime I throw anything. Mix that with the characters that get confirmed 2nd lights thats two hits per success..that's the match right there. I want opening moves. Something to force a reaction I can attack with. The shove atm is reactable and you get nothing if the shove hits. I do not count it if your hit relies on them being bad. I base my move off of what it would be like to fight the best player in the world.

Oddy._.
04-26-2019, 10:17 PM
I will admit I jumped the gun with my opinions as if I had already played him when in retrospect I should've reserved my judgement for in-practice. I guess I myself like many others were expecting something more... After 2 years you'd think after the tons of threads about LBs rework ideas and so forth would be more inspired based for the game devs. I'm going to sit and wait, get my hands on the new LB and see then make my judgment.

UbiInsulin
04-27-2019, 12:29 AM
I'm reserving myself to try it before I make any hasty comments about it. I will admit on paper and even in the stream I just kinda sat back and sighed, but I am still going to try it out first. No matter what He will still be my main..I'm at rep 64 with him and decided to main him the first time I launched For Honor the day it came out and saw him. I was like yeah that is my Big Boy. lol. However I have been using alot of different heros over the course of For Honor's life mainly because I was frustrated and needed a more....freeing character to use. I can do well with Lawbringer sure, if I do not mind playing kinda slow against heros like JJ, Conq, Orochi, and Shugoki. I have slaughtered those heros as well, but when I face those characters in duels when you see their rep matching yours...it's a bit more of a coin toss. I fought a JJ just today actually that I could not touch. Though it was my own fault as I wasn't turtling like I should and I was missing my light parries. But he would do that back up move like a mofo. Xbox One btw if it matters. I'm hoping for opening pressure, i didn't see much that gives that. I want to have that because honestly if you really only cared about winning and you were completely ok with 100% turtling. Lawbringer is one of the few if not the only character you can beat 100% of the time if you turtle 100% of the match..no pride kinda matches. option selects anytime I throw anything. Mix that with the characters that get confirmed 2nd lights thats two hits per success..that's the match right there. I want opening moves. Something to force a reaction I can attack with. The shove atm is reactable and you get nothing if the shove hits. I do not count it if your hit relies on them being bad. I base my move off of what it would be like to fight the best player in the world.

Appreciate where you're coming from. A lot is at stake for mains who are waiting on a rework. I hope that the changes work out for you once they're present in the live game. :)

MCBooma16
04-27-2019, 02:20 AM
I think a big mistake everyone made was have high expectations, first of all.

LB didn't get nerfed. For all of you cucks that claim that LB will be worse because of his *key feature* shove on block being removed, you are a bane. You know damn well you weren't proud playing LB playing like a loser and shove spamming. Be grateful that the shove now gaurentees a light attack and a chance at a mixup.

Yes, LB can now be interrupted with Long Arm and Impale. Big deal. Play smarter, not cheesier... Have patience and OBSERVE what your teammates do and SUPPORT them instead of trying to both butt in and screw things up. Better players will often recognize moves like Long Arm, Impale, or Demon's Embrace and wait for the opportune moment to attack. Casual or low level players will either not care or not know how to coordinate as such.

Shugoki and Raider have to deal with that same issue. Besides... You knew that change was coming, don't deny it.

LB may not have gotten the depth you LB mains wanted, but he does have more options and less predictability. You'll have to be more technical is all.

LB probably didn't get HA because I have a feeling Ubi wanted to keep LB's identity of getting good damage off of parries. If LB traded with HA, he would have hard-hitting heavies at a chance to his mixups, PLUS a gaurenteed shove against other traders like Shugoki and Berserker, which would simply shut them down. Take your pick: High parry punishes or trading. They stuck with the high parry punishes, because that was naturally his specialty. They just enhanced his offense a bit to compliment the defense, which is fine.

They created a balance and a chance at some good mixups. He CAN get to his UB a little easier since he's now less predictable. Yes, neutral shove won't work, but perhaps better-used as a counter.

Players will get creative with his mixup methinks. He'll be a solid anti-ganker, also.

My question to you LB mains mad that the shove is no longer a mix up:
Would you rather have gaurenteed damage from a shove to a chance at mixups, or a shove to a 33/33/33 that most high level players have no problem with? Not only that, but the shove before could be completely avoidable. A LOT of players could avoid the mixup, and it was just a bane to regular gameplay.

Be happy that LB can initiate a fight now. Faster lights, more chains, uninterubtable lights, gaurenteed damage on shove, higher heavy damage across the board, and an infinite chain possibility.
Not to mention the top light can be used to interrupt opponents easier. What's better to interrupt with than a 400ms light? That's excellent.

Throw in some feints and good reactions and you have yourself a very technical, worthy and viable hero. In the best hands, I have a feeling LB will be alright.



Raider might seem better because he has a variable-times stunning tap now, WITH more chains. He has more ways of initiating a fight, but you have to realize that Raider's parry punishes are not as good as LB's.

These are just two different play styles. LB focuses more on defense and harassing with shoves and Raider is a brutal aggressor.

But enough theoretical nonsense. Let's wait and see how people adapt and work with these reworks. I'm sure we'll see some really fancy and fun stuff from both of them.

Jazz117Volkov
04-27-2019, 11:33 AM
Interesting...

I think Lawbringer update is on the money. They cleaned up the bad bits--shove on block and gank god powers--and, in addition to improving his chains, and giving him more chains, and more chain options, his side lights don't bounce, therefore his chains don't stop. This is good.

Make Way got a huge buff: speed + unblockable. < This is good. This is not a nerf. This will hurt people.

400ms top light + 100 ms guard switch = Berserker level harassment.

Some of the adjustments, like the forward momentum on his chain finishers I think will need to be experienced 1st-hand to gauge properly, but on paper it sounds good. He also has more options to reach his stunning light.

Shove adjustments in general feel like two steps forward, but at least one step backward, and then sort of a step to the side. The guaranteed light changes the nature of the tool, in my opinion. Before, it was a mix-up, now it's only useful for direct damage and combo pressure. The old bash was useful because you had options from the bash (heavy, light, or guardbreak). Shove on block + side heavy (if it connected, and it usually did because people be dodge hungry) would reset the mix-up, because bash on heavy was guaranteed. If you did this, and sprinkled in a few lights, and light + heavy(feint) + GBs, you could be super oppressive. The new bash changes where the mix-up happens: bash = light + (UB)chain finisher >mix-up here<. I'll have to take him out and test this before I can really comment, but I think the new options combined with guaranteed damage at key points will push updated Lawbro well ahead of pre-udpated Lawbro.

"Where's all the hyperarmour" is not the correct question for this hero update because Lawbringer was never designed around trading. You've mistaken him for Shugoki if that's your opinion.

Knight_Raime
04-27-2019, 11:34 AM
Well I sure hope youíre right and it feels good once it comes out. Perhaps itís that next to Raider rework it looks even worse as LB had things taken away and not TOO much added.

I agree the direction itís going is healthier for the game and itís nice that he can come out of his defensive shell, but compensation wise, at least on paper, things donít look to add up. Iíd say his kit is about even on paper as it was previously tbh, but LB is defiantly one of the lowest tier characters except in a gank squad. I wish they had removed his bombs and gank tools but so they could give him extra mix up options.

The problems i see with what you brought up is that initiating the shove, where a lot of the focus stems from for the rework, is either from neutral or a whiffed Heavy. Both are pretty risky even with a speed buff. If you dodge the shove, itís a free GB->heavy. If they throw a heavy to initiate a shove in chain, itís going to be pretty obvious if whiffed, and if theyíre close enough the heavy is risky being parryable. It just seems like a good chunk of risk to initiate it for a free light. You canít follow up on a miss so itís not like the conq bash, BP bash or shinobi kick where itís nearly impossible to punish. We do have more options in chain which is good, but again, the UB finisher not having HA makes it easy to light out of. Shove initiation wonít be fast enough after a hard cancel. Youíd have about 500ms on average to hard cancel into dodge->shove initiation. I donít think thatís doable. The best hope is that they attempt a parry so you can feint GB for heavy into shove into light and continue your chain.

GB will pretty much be his #1 tool. That and top light opener.

Iím glad youíre very optimistic and I wish I was just as much. I really just donít see it being a worthy compensation of what he lost and more importantly, I donít think it will bring him up any closer in the rankings. We will have to see when he comes out exactly what the delays are like and how smooth his chains are though to fully grasp how well done or poorly the changes effected his viability.

His shove can be accessed from a hit confirm, block, or whiff. It's not going to be hard to get to his mid chain mix up. Of the 3 bashes you listed BP's bash is the only one that's hard to punish. heavy into shove is directly comparable reaction time wise to shaolin doing a raw heavy into Qi. Yes, whiffing into it is semi obvious. But you can delay the input. Just like you can delay kick out of qi. And LB can delay the 400ms light follow up after. Either way you're not going to be able to react punish if he whiffs into it. And certainly not if you block his heavy.

I believe i've already mentioned this but i'll do so again. You won't easy peasy light LB out of his UB finisher mix up. You already can't do that to Warden's top UB heavy mix up. And they share the same speed value. If you try to do it on reaction LB can feint and parry. The safer counter would be to late dodge. Because that avoids both a committed to or a feint into GB. But since LB can just feint this he can prevent you from punishing him for doing the mix up. So he gets to chip away your health with his mid chain mix up whilst constantly being able to threaten you with his UB finisher mix up. Leaving you little room to actually punish him.

LB still has his stupid high parry punishes with the update. And some semblance of mid chain pressure. So in theory he'll not really change much in placements in either duels or 4's.

Knight_Raime
04-27-2019, 11:39 AM
Interesting...

I think Lawbringer update is on the money. They cleaned up the bad bits--shove on block and gank god powers--and, in addition to improving his chains, and giving him more chains, and more chain options, his side lights don't bounce, therefore his chains don't stop. This is good.

Make Way got a huge buff: speed + unblockable. < This is good. This is not a nerf. This will hurt people.

400ms top light + 100 ms guard switch = Berserker level harassment.

Some of the adjustments, like the forward momentum on his chain finishers I think will need to be experienced 1st-hand to gauge properly, but on paper it sounds good. He also has more options to reach his stunning light.

Shove adjustments in general feel like two steps forward, but at least one step backward, and then sort of a step to the side. The guaranteed light changes the nature of the tool, in my opinion. Before, it was a mix-up, now it's only useful for direct damage and combo pressure. The old bash was useful because you had options from the bash (heavy, light, or guardbreak). Shove on block + side heavy (if it connected, and it usually did because people be dodge hungry) would reset the mix-up, because bash on heavy was guaranteed. If you did this, and sprinkled in a few lights, and light + heavy(feint) + GBs, you could be super oppressive. The new bash changes where the mix-up happens: bash = light + (UB)chain finisher >mix-up here<. I'll have to take him out and test this before I can really comment, but I think the new options combined with guaranteed damage at key points will push updated Lawbro well ahead of pre-udpated Lawbro.

"Where's all the hyperarmour" is not the correct question for this hero update because Lawbringer was never designed around trading. You've mistaken him for Shugoki if that's your opinion.

The funny thing is Armor won't help LB at all. The rework lets him access both his mid chain pressure and his finisher mix up without having to actually confirm many attacks at all. So having armor to be able to land those attacks isn't important. His heavies are also too slow for trading to be something that works for him. And armor for the sake of preventing being hit out of an attack isn't really beneficial.

As feint into parry always beats that. Armor on bashes is really the only time this would actually be beneficial. It's always the better call to either dodge or parry someone throwing an obvious and easily reactable attack. Both are safer to do and net you a higher reward then attempting to interrupt a raw combo attack. People just want Armor on LB because he's a hulking dude in armor and they want to be able to feel like that big unflinching dude in armor with big attacks.

IAmOddGirl
04-27-2019, 01:29 PM
The shove light confirm is the greatest thing I saw. Honestly that alone I can be happy with. Other than that yeah I'm waiting to see how it works as a collective. No matter what I'm still going to main him and enjoy him. What is interesting is raider's rework too. Raider and Lawbringer are my highest reps. Lawbringer being 64 and Raider being 22. I prefer the male Raider, but maybe thats just me..I like my big hunky intimidating looking men :cool: ;)

Illyrian_King
04-27-2019, 01:29 PM
The funny thing is Armor won't help LB at all. The rework lets him access both his mid chain pressure and his finisher mix up without having to actually confirm many attacks at all. So having armor to be able to land those attacks isn't important. His heavies are also too slow for trading to be something that works for him. And armor for the sake of preventing being hit out of an attack isn't really beneficial.

As feint into parry always beats that. Armor on bashes is really the only time this would actually be beneficial. It's always the better call to either dodge or parry someone throwing an obvious and easily reactable attack. Both are safer to do and net you a higher reward then attempting to interrupt a raw combo attack. People just want Armor on LB because he's a hulking dude in armor and they want to be able to feel like that big unflinching dude in armor with big attacks.

Wrong. Missing Hyperarmour will cause the unblockable "mix-up" to get interrupted pretty often.

Oddy._.
04-27-2019, 08:23 PM
Exactly, 900ms UB heavies are 900ms... in a game where reaction times are needed 900ms with no soft-feints or hyper armor it's literally dodge, parry, or interrupt with a light attack. And due to it being LBs finisher I'm pretty sure if he whiffs it even if he tries to start up a 500ms shove the wind-up/recovery time will still get him guard broken. I fought PKs where they've GBd my shove on wind-up and that was when it was faster, now it's a whole 200ms slower.

Knight_Raime
04-27-2019, 08:32 PM
Exactly, 900ms UB heavies are 900ms... in a game where reaction times are needed 900ms with no soft-feints or hyper armor it's literally dodge, parry, or interrupt with a light attack. And due to it being LBs finisher I'm pretty sure if he whiffs it even if he tries to start up a 500ms shove the wind-up/recovery time will still get him guard broken. I fought PKs where they've GBd my shove on wind-up and that was when it was faster, now it's a whole 200ms slower.

Wardens top heavy finisher mix up has zero soft feints. It's just commit or feint. It's a 1100ms attack. People never hit him out of it on purpose. People won't be doing that to a mix up that's 300ms faster.

Shove in chain is 500ms if buffered and faster if delayed. Which is essentially shaolin kick. Which is an apt comparison since shalion can whiff hit confirm or have his heavy blocked and still flow into qi to kick. So you telling me that shaolins kick is reactable?

And attacking them out isn't even safe or optimal. Dodging to get a GB or parrying will net you more damage.

Illyrian_King
04-27-2019, 08:57 PM
Wardens top heavy finisher mix up has zero soft feints. It's just commit or feint. It's a 1100ms attack. People never hit him out of it on purpose. People won't be doing that to a mix up that's 300ms faster.

Shove in chain is 500ms if buffered and faster if delayed. Which is essentially shaolin kick. Which is an apt comparison since shalion can whiff hit confirm or have his heavy blocked and still flow into qi to kick. So you telling me that shaolins kick is reactable?

And attacking them out isn't even safe or optimal. Dodging to get a GB or parrying will net you more damage.

The difference is, that Warden's kit doesn't build up all tension to get to that unblockable.
He still has his broken shoulder bash, fast zone, etc.

Lawbringer's new kit pretty much evolves around getting to the chain finisher.

Knight_Raime
04-27-2019, 09:04 PM
The difference is, that Warden's kit doesn't build up all tension to get to that unblockable.
He still has his broken shoulder bash, fast zone, etc.

Lawbringer's new kit pretty much evolves around getting to the chain finisher.

Shoulder bash has nothing to do with the quoted statement.

I don't see how getting to his finisher will be difficult. It's not like you'll be able to shut down his mid chain pressure of unreactable bash or 400ms light.

Sure his opener can be lazy blocked with resting up top. But you can't seriously expect to parry his side lights everytime. I mean if that were the case then people shouldn't have any trouble with preventing shaolin from using light openers. (as he's got 400ms top and 500ms sides) yet people still get hit by them all the time.

Oddy._.
04-27-2019, 09:29 PM
@Raime, it seems like you think just because he can get to his chains easier now that it exonerates them from being parried. Sure Shaolin's lights can land but tell me this, can LB shove after a light like Shaolin can get into Qi stance and mix-up a lot more. To even get to LBs shove you have to let a heavy fly, hit, block, or whiff then shove. And do we even know if blocking or whiffing guarantees a shove, probably not. If LBs shove is dodged can you preform a light afterwards to prevent being GBd after the recovery? Because no LB will follow it up with a heavy due to the wind-up being too long.

Ben.D.Nee
04-27-2019, 09:37 PM
So much about the "rework" makes me wonder if Ubisoft plays For Honor.

Like nerfing Long Arm makes me wonder what's going on. If not for group utility, what's it for? Ledging? Long Arm is already bugged in that most of the time it just bounces off the opponent. It's like devs only see the move on paper, and have never used it themselves.

Knight_Raime
04-27-2019, 09:40 PM
@Raime, it seems like you think just because he can get to his chains easier now that it exonerates them from being parried. Sure Shaolin's lights can land but tell me this, can LB shove after a light like Shaolin can get into Qi stance and mix-up a lot more. To even get to LBs shove you have to let a heavy fly, hit, block, or whiff then shove. And do we even know if blocking or whiffing guarantees a shove, probably not. If LBs shove is dodged can you preform a light afterwards to prevent being GBd after the recovery? Because no LB will follow it up with a heavy due to the wind-up being too long.

Not saying he's immune to parries. Just saying something is completely forfit because parry is possible is just shortsighted.

We don't know if shove is guaranteed on block. It's possible as it's a 500ms bash. It just depends when we can chain into it. Like BPs chain bash is also 500ms. But it's guaranteed on late guard switch because you link into it 100ms after the light. Heavies have harder hitstun. So who knows.

Even if it's not people still have to dodge the bash on prediction. LB could delay the bash input like shaolin does to catch early dodges. And he could go for a GB instead. Which gives him a heavy that confirms the bash.

I doubt whiffing his bash chains into a light. But there are not many bashes that can chain into an attack on whiff. It's usually the other way around.

Oddy._.
04-27-2019, 09:57 PM
How long could LB delay the bash for though, because if it's too long someone could've recovered from their dodge in time to counter GB out of the LBs 50/50. His recovery times are what concern me, because I didn't see anything in the patch notes increasing or decreasing their times, even his wind-ups were not even addressed. I'm just worried that sure, he's more viable for mix-ups and forced reactions but I'm concerned now that his main tool, being his bash, is slowed down how does it affect his wind-up. Because if everything centers around it I'd hate to see it where he can be easily interrupted out of it.

Knight_Raime
04-27-2019, 10:31 PM
How long could LB delay the bash for though, because if it's too long someone could've recovered from their dodge in time to counter GB out of the LBs 50/50. His recovery times are what concern me, because I didn't see anything in the patch notes increasing or decreasing their times, even his wind-ups were not even addressed. I'm just worried that sure, he's more viable for mix-ups and forced reactions but I'm concerned now that his main tool, being his bash, is slowed down how does it affect his wind-up. Because if everything centers around it I'd hate to see it where he can be easily interrupted out of it.

We don't know the delay time. That is something we will have to test ourselves. I can understand your concern on recovery. However I should also mention that both with new heros and hero reworks/updates they never note the recovery or delay times on moves. That's usually only done in patches that are aimed at changing a moves properties.

The only example I can think of atm where they noted a recovery time on a rework is wardens bash. Or warlord getting his crashing charge nerfed in his update.

Im well aware that these things are important and can make or break things. I'm merely going off of what we've been told and comparing it to other situations in the game. So lb to me seems to have decent opening potential like shaolin. A mid chain mix up comparable to shaolin and an end game mix up similar to wardens ub heavy mix up.

And to compliment this he has his high parry punishes still. A better zone for option selecting. And his gank tools.

On paper he sounds strong. So thats my stance until we get our hands on him. If there are any glaring issues with said upsides I've mentioned you can bet your butt that I'll be right here on the forums complaining about them.

LeriiSuitedUp
04-30-2019, 06:22 PM
Okay, I really don't think you're being honest here, Raime, if you really think his mid chain pressure or even opening pressure is going to be anything like Shaolin or finisher mixup like Wardens. Shaolin has OTHER tools to open people besides just 500ms side lights and 400ms top, the character has an extensive kit with mixup potential that can be very hard to predict on top of the fast light attacks that lead into other mixups. LB can throw a light and that's it.

Shove being only after a heavy, which is still parry bait, means the chances of mixing someone up are minimal. Warden can bash from neutral or after a light, but he can also charge it to catch orange dodgers or cancel it at any point and throw another attack or GB, whereas with LB it will just be dodge on orange and parry any follow up attempt to prevent GB on recovery like with Kensei's hilt bash, but at least in Kensei's case, you can let the heavy you soft feint from fly or hard feint into GB to catch dodgers.

Finisher mixups are still mininal; let it fly or hard feint into gb/light attack. Warden has not only better and more consistent ways of getting to his heavy finisher, but his options out of it are more dangerous; zone attack to catch dodgers, which flows into finisher again, gb and flow into finisher again, or setup another bash and repeat the process. LB will let the heavy fly or hard feint into minimal options that aren't nearly as threatening besides GB, and that don't flow into the finisher nearly as effectively. So no, on paper he does not sound strong.

I agree shove on block needed to go and disabling moves are overall too strong in the old states they were in, but LB was not given sufficient tools to be able to keep up the offense as they stated when they try to rely on his meme tier heavies. I have over 20 reps combined on Xbox and PC on LB and I couldn't care less about his identity, I want a hero that functions well that can hold his own, because his identity is currently as a bottom feeder. He's still likely going to be a turtle hero but with less options to turtle and lackluster offense options compared to the rest of the cast.

Knight_Raime
05-01-2019, 12:25 AM
Okay, I really don't think you're being honest here, Raime, if you really think his mid chain pressure or even opening pressure is going to be anything like Shaolin or finisher mixup like Wardens. Shaolin has OTHER tools to open people besides just 500ms side lights and 400ms top, the character has an extensive kit with mixup potential that can be very hard to predict on top of the fast light attacks that lead into other mixups. LB can throw a light and that's it.

Shove being only after a heavy, which is still parry bait, means the chances of mixing someone up are minimal. Warden can bash from neutral or after a light, but he can also charge it to catch orange dodgers or cancel it at any point and throw another attack or GB, whereas with LB it will just be dodge on orange and parry any follow up attempt to prevent GB on recovery like with Kensei's hilt bash, but at least in Kensei's case, you can let the heavy you soft feint from fly or hard feint into GB to catch dodgers.

Finisher mixups are still mininal; let it fly or hard feint into gb/light attack. Warden has not only better and more consistent ways of getting to his heavy finisher, but his options out of it are more dangerous; zone attack to catch dodgers, which flows into finisher again, gb and flow into finisher again, or setup another bash and repeat the process. LB will let the heavy fly or hard feint into minimal options that aren't nearly as threatening besides GB, and that don't flow into the finisher nearly as effectively. So no, on paper he does not sound strong.

I agree shove on block needed to go and disabling moves are overall too strong in the old states they were in, but LB was not given sufficient tools to be able to keep up the offense as they stated when they try to rely on his meme tier heavies. I have over 20 reps combined on Xbox and PC on LB and I couldn't care less about his identity, I want a hero that functions well that can hold his own, because his identity is currently as a bottom feeder. He's still likely going to be a turtle hero but with less options to turtle and lackluster offense options compared to the rest of the cast.

Point 1) back whiff into qi to open someone doesn't work unless you back whiff into heavy because back whiff into light takes you out of kick range. And raw heavy into qi is comparable to LB raw heavy into shove or 400ms light. So not sure where you think he gets other tools to open people. Shaolin is straight up turtled by standard guard heros. LB is given enhanced light openers. Which means from neutral LB is better.

Point 2) Iirc all of shaolin heavies mid combo are 800ms which is the same speed as LBs combo side heavies. People don't really parry those unless someone buffer commits all the time. So saying it's parry bait isn't being 100% honest. In regards to saying it's like shaolins heavy into kick I was specifically referring to the time you'll have to react to it. Shaolins mix up mid chain is slightly better because of infinite combo and being able to threaten with an undodgable. Where as LB only threatens with a 400ms light or unreactable bash or GB. It makes his more limited with less range. But it's still a good mix up. And from video footage dodging on orange for a GB won't work. Only hero that can do that is raider. Barring certain dodge attacks most of the cast will have to punish on read.


Point 3). Lbs unblockable mix up is better than wardens unblockable mix up because he has the ability to do a 900ms option. Preventing trading or interrupting unless whiffed into. But both mix ups are bad in a single engagement because they can be beaten by an early dodge into roll if need be. Warden feinting into uncharged bash or zone is irrelevant because the opponent is afforded so much time watching the top heavy that you can react dodge or block. All that amounts to is protecting yourself slightly externally in a team fight. But feinting protects lb enough if he's doing the 900ms option.


Point 4) yes. LB will still be a turtle in high mmr. This was reinforced because LB got to keep his parry into impale, buffed damages punishes wise, zone option select now being viable, and the fact that he can parry into his mid chain mix up.

Playing_Mantis
05-01-2019, 08:56 AM
why does everyone want hyper armor on everything? its stupid. i think the changes are great for the LB. people who say its a nerf are wrong. i don't think people want total reworks on the characters they like to play or they would just play a different class. i hate when they completely change the moves and playstyle of characters so i think its nice that they mostly left him alone and just tweaked him a bit. this is all we need for the old cast. something like this or less on the valk would make me so happy to play the game.

give it a week and everyone will be asking for a nerf, so just be happy that the LB has good damage and is actually a viable character.

Illyrian_King
05-01-2019, 09:20 PM
why does everyone want hyper armor on everything? its stupid. i think the changes are great for the LB. people who say its a nerf are wrong. i don't think people want total reworks on the characters they like to play or they would just play a different class. i hate when they completely change the moves and playstyle of characters so i think its nice that they mostly left him alone and just tweaked him a bit. this is all we need for the old cast. something like this or less on the valk would make me so happy to play the game.

give it a week and everyone will be asking for a nerf, so just be happy that the LB has good damage and is actually a viable character.

You are very hasty ...
People didn't say hyperarmour on everything, just on his heavies.
There are already videos out from the "reworked" Lawbringer and it's not really amazing yet.
https://youtu.be/lc29huc_T94

As predicted, his lights are strong (as if a 200kg metallcube was made for that) and yeah ... feint everything and hope for a parry. Even his highly praised unblockable "mix-up" aka gb/hit can be completely shut down just by dodging back early. It is trash.

People might want, that a Hero doesn't change from head to toe, but meanwhile Lawbringer has no real identity. He has stronger parries, but that's it. There is nothing in his kit, that other classes don't have too or even better, eventhough in real fights he would be superior above all others with his weapon, armour and body. So much wasted potential to make him different from everybody else.

Knight_Raime
05-02-2019, 12:08 AM
You are very hasty ...
People didn't say hyperarmour on everything, just on his heavies.
There are already videos out from the "reworked" Lawbringer and it's not really amazing yet.
https://youtu.be/lc29huc_T94

As predicted, his lights are strong (as if a 200kg metallcube was made for that) and yeah ... feint everything and hope for a parry. Even his highly praised unblockable "mix-up" aka gb/hit can be completely shut down just by dodging back early. It is trash.

People might want, that a Hero doesn't change from head to toe, but meanwhile Lawbringer has no real identity. He has stronger parries, but that's it. There is nothing in his kit, that other classes don't have too or even better, eventhough in real fights he would be superior above all others with his weapon, armour and body. So much wasted potential to make him different from everybody else.

It's a side dash for top unblockable and a back dash for side unblockable. LB can feint the side one and hit you with dodge into shove. You can of course roll this if you see it coming like any offense.

Wasnt is expecting to see it be amazing because wardens is not amazing and is in the same boat. But both mix ups will work regardless in 4's more often than not because people don't play well.


I do hope they buff the tracking or something to make it better. But it's not really the end all be all for me. Hell be able to attack and use the mis chain pressure against most heros just fine.

Illyrian_King
05-02-2019, 10:10 AM
It's a side dash for top unblockable and a back dash for side unblockable. LB can feint the side one and hit you with dodge into shove. You can of course roll this if you see it coming like any offense.

Wasnt is expecting to see it be amazing because wardens is not amazing and is in the same boat. But both mix ups will work regardless in 4's more often than not because people don't play well.


I do hope they buff the tracking or something to make it better. But it's not really the end all be all for me. Hell be able to attack and use the mis chain pressure against most heros just fine.

He already was strong in 4s ... that's where he even got nerfed, because he was too good. Bad players are really not the set point for lookin on a Hero in a game, that wants to be competitive.

In other words it's really only his lights and hard feints into lights. This rework is BS and I told you and everybody else.

Knight_Raime
05-02-2019, 10:21 AM
He already was strong in 4s ... that's where he even got nerfed, because he was too good. Bad players are really not the set point for lookin on a Hero in a game, that wants to be competitive.

In other words it's really only his lights and hard feints into lights. This rework is BS and I told you and everybody else.

I'm just flat out done with you.

You see what you want to see and there is no reason for me to even try to have a dialogue with you.

I never once thought his rework was going to be flawless. It was bound to have issues just like every other rework they've done.
I do hope that like every other rework they will do something to make it better at some point in the future.
But I still think that LB is in a better spot now as compared to before. And i'd rather have this new one than keep the old one.

Good day.

NinjaRonin85
05-02-2019, 10:22 AM
If they gave lb shove hard faint into gb/ light/heavy/parry that would help vs everyone and some hyper amour on heavy openers. It's really not hard to make him A tier ubisoft.

The_B0G_
05-02-2019, 11:33 AM
I was originally hoping for shove to be soft feinted into longarm, but that would be too much like HL probably.

I'm going to give him a solid try this week, his mind game potential might be okay. My best fighter at the moment is WL so it's not like everyone is good with the same heroes, I suck with assassin's and don't like playing the current most OP heroes because I don't get as much satisfaction for doing well, his simple play style works for me, hopefully the same can be said for LB.

Illyrian_King
05-02-2019, 01:00 PM
I'm just flat out done with you.

You see what you want to see and there is no reason for me to even try to have a dialogue with you.

I never once thought his rework was going to be flawless. It was bound to have issues just like every other rework they've done.
I do hope that like every other rework they will do something to make it better at some point in the future.
But I still think that LB is in a better spot now as compared to before. And i'd rather have this new one than keep the old one.

Good day.

You really make me cringe ^^

Look at the last page. Where did I quote you, when continuing this conversation?
I talked to PlayingMantis, then you came back to me. Not vice versa.

The point is just, that this rework isn't simply "unperfect" or has issues, but it's a flat out joke to all the LB mains out there. He might be better for a small degree, but his only semi-reliable source of damage output is light spam. Maybe a parry, but really not reliable. It simply doesn't fix his issues, but just keeps improving the aspects, where he already was viable. Talking about mid-chain, but still no combo initiation from neutral. It feels like this rework was made some days after release, frozen for later days and served now after 2 years, since it doesn't tackle his fundamental issues.

I don't have any problems with you personally, but when a main gets a shiity rework for his Hero and some smarty-pants guy keeps defending a piece of obvious nothing, then he just reaps the storm.

Good day Sir.

Kergilo2
05-02-2019, 10:41 PM
I agree with you NinjaRonin85, ubisoft had to have done what you said. That's a nerf not a rework.

Ben.D.Nee
05-02-2019, 11:10 PM
I honestly don't care about Long Arm that much, it's just a gimmicky flashy move with no utility now. It bounced off opponents far too often to be useful in team fights as well. GB is better.

It's definitely a rework, not a buff. Some aspects are stronger, some weaker. What I expected, and feel we didn't get, is OPTIONS. All I really can do now is spam lights. Getting into mixup with enemy right in your face is basically impossible without parrying, and that is no small feat!

KotoKuraken
05-02-2019, 11:33 PM
For the last time, we don't want hyperarmor on everyone or on every single move, we want hyperarmor for one of the biggest, tankiest counter attackers in the game, and at least on just the first heavy in a chain. If someone is questioning why Lawbringer needs hyperarmor, I still have to question why Raider got more damage, hyperarmor, and softfeints on his heavies

DeamonXII
09-05-2019, 08:00 PM
Now he throws top lights more than anything

AmonDarkGod
09-05-2019, 08:04 PM
Now he throws top lights more than anything

That and turtle lol

Hausieklein
09-06-2019, 08:43 AM
Thats what the devs want !!!!:p

DeamonXII
09-06-2019, 10:11 AM
Everytime you are confused /don't know about what to do, just throw a top light

V1vson
09-06-2019, 02:41 PM
Just spamm LA like others do and be happy :)

DeamonXII
09-06-2019, 03:33 PM
it is bad for him to only rely for top light as an opener....

Helnekromancer
09-06-2019, 07:17 PM
Atleast you have a opener

Illyrian_King
09-07-2019, 12:13 AM
Of course he just relies solely on his top lights, since there is nothing too juicy in the rest of his kit.

There are still the parry punishes, but you guest it ... locked behind parries ;)
He doesn't play what he looks like and what he plays is terrible.

There were quiet some people hardcore arguing the rework is "fine" or even praising it ... leave Lawbringer matters to Lawbringer mains ;b

DeamonXII
09-07-2019, 07:41 AM
Lawbringer is a joke right now

DeamonXII
09-07-2019, 07:46 AM
Cause his top light is his most used and viable move

dacinui
09-07-2019, 04:13 PM
Sigh,when i see what reworks centurion and warlord are getting ,then looking at lawbringer.

It just makes me sigh a lot. #
Didn't think this topic would still be alive after months :D

DeamonXII
09-07-2019, 04:20 PM
Lol and most lawbringer i met when i played this game always do top lights to get damage in

TheUberDome
09-08-2019, 03:17 AM
All the devs needed to do was give him a heavy softfeint into shove, but rather than giving him better offence, they gave him a faster light and called it a day. Clearly all the effort went into raider, and LB was an afterthough, and whenever you play him you always feel that way.

DeamonXII
09-08-2019, 08:15 AM
Whenever i play LB i have the feeling of needing doing top lights to get damage in since anything else is way too slow