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Frequent_Flyer
09-01-2006, 12:12 PM
I read quite a bit of WW II history as I sure many do who frequent these boards. Some sources seem more reliable than others. I ran across an account of a Russian transport, the Uritsky, Loaded with Sherman tanks it left Portland Ore., on Dec. 4, 1941. On the 7th the Uritsky found itself in the middle of the Japanese Peral Harbor attack force. Moscow told the Japanese ," If you sink our ship, we'll have to declare war on you.Leave it alone, and it won't say a word about what it may see." Any mention of this in the Russian history books?

berg417448
09-01-2006, 12:22 PM
Look at a world globe. Why would a ship sailing from Oregon to the Soviet Union be anywhere near Hawaii?

I also doubt that there was instant worldwide communication between Moscow and the Japanese fleet.

faustnik
09-01-2006, 12:31 PM
The M4 didn't enter production until 1942.

DuxCorvan
09-01-2006, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Frequent_Flyer:
Some sources seem more reliable than others. I ran across an account of a Russian transport, the Uritsky, Loaded with Sherman tanks it left Portland Ore., on Dec. 4, 1941.

Seems like you ran across one of those unreliable sources.


Originally posted by Frequent_Flyer:
Any mention of this in the Russian history books?

Not the serious ones, I guess.

Daiichidoku
09-01-2006, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
Look at a world globe. Why would a ship sailing from Oregon to the Soviet Union be anywhere near Hawaii?

I also doubt that there was instant worldwide communication between Moscow and the Japanese fleet.

the JP fleet was no-where near hawaii either

check out some maps of the JP fleets route to its aircraft lauch point and it will make sense

berg417448
09-01-2006, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
Look at a world globe. Why would a ship sailing from Oregon to the Soviet Union be anywhere near Hawaii?

I also doubt that there was instant worldwide communication between Moscow and the Japanese fleet.

the JP fleet was no-where near hawaii either

check out some maps of the JP fleets route to its aircraft lauch point and it will make sense </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They most certainly were near Hawaii on December 7th which is the date that the original post referred to.

Frequent_Flyer
09-01-2006, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
Look at a world globe. Why would a ship sailing from Oregon to the Soviet Union be anywhere near Hawaii?

I also doubt that there was instant worldwide communication between Moscow and the Japanese fleet. Is that a trick question? My guess would be to deliver its cargo to its destination.

Frequent_Flyer
09-01-2006, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Frequent_Flyer:
Some sources seem more reliable than others. I ran across an account of a Russian transport, the Uritsky, Loaded with Sherman tanks it left Portland Ore., on Dec. 4, 1941.

Seems like you ran across one of those unreliable sources.


Originally posted by Frequent_Flyer:
Any mention of this in the Russian history books?

Not the serious ones, I guess. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Like much of "oral history" some of the details maybe inaccurate but there still can be a kernel of truth.

berg417448
09-01-2006, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Frequent_Flyer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
Look at a world globe. Why would a ship sailing from Oregon to the Soviet Union be anywhere near Hawaii?

I also doubt that there was instant worldwide communication between Moscow and the Japanese fleet. Is that a trick question? My guess would be to deliver its cargo to its destination. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I would fire that skipper then since he needlessly sailed his ship thousands of miles out of the way. Consult a map and you will easily see that ships delivering material from Oregon to the Soviet Union have no reason to sail anywhere near Hawaii. To run into the Japanese fleet on Dec 7th the cargo ship would have to be within a few hundred miles of Hawaii.

Enforcer572005
09-01-2006, 10:32 PM
i dont think our lend lease had extended to the USSR at that point, and I know we werent sending them Shermans until much later to.

May have been transporting some other stuff somewhere else, but this is a bit impossible.

leitmotiv
09-01-2006, 11:53 PM
OK, here is the deal. The Japanese Pearl Harbor striking force deliberately took the desolate and stormy North Pacific passage to get north of Hawaii before the drive to the south at high speed to launch the attack within, I believe, 200 miles of Oahu at dawn on the 7th. Assuming this Soviet transport bumped into the strike force on the morning of the 7th, while the raids were in progress, it is possible the Japanese would have held their fire because the last thing the Empire of Japan wanted was a war with the USSR. Unfortunately for this interesting story, I've never seen a reference to it in any of the Pearl Harbor sources I've read, including the interestingly conspiratorial DAYS OF INFAMY (Costello) and DAY OF DECEIT. Gordon Prange and his acolytes never found anything like this in their research in Japanese sources. As far as I know, this story is not in the official Japanese history of the raid. It is a good story. A flaw, I suspect, is that such a ship would undoubtably have been sighted by the vengeful Americans scouring the waters around Oahu, and would have been of interest. Having got all of that out of the way, where did you find this story? As for the route---200 miles north of Oahu would, I imagine, still be on the trade route from Oregon to Vladivostok. Furthermore, it would be just like the sneaky Sovs to avoid the normal trade route.

Viking-S
09-02-2006, 01:41 PM
To believing that a merchant navy captain, being 1380 nautical miles south of his optimal course between Oregon an Vladivostok ( 1) carrying a cargo, produced (2) years later in a aid programme, that was to begin years later, and in so doing this southerly deviation at an average speed of 26!! knots (3) on a eastern heading in a few minutes passing the Japanese carriers (3) going south launching its aircrafts at 0600 at high speed, managing to wake up both Tokyo to AND Moscow government (on a 2 to 10 hour time difference) to interchange this conversation while both of them where (or at least should have been) on radio silence is so unbelievable that I fail to find words to describe it!!
The key word here is off course Russian and that they €œknew€ but failed to provide warning!

The biggest victims of cold war propaganda are not on this side of the ocean for sure!

What do they write in YOUR history books about Tonkin Bay incident, Christmas bombing of Hanoi and WMD?



1. Ocean Passages Of the World HMSO Chart 5307
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease_Sherman_tanks

USSR
The Soviet Union preferred the diesel Shermans because its native tanks such as the T-34 were also diesel. Consequently, it was the second largest user (after the United Kingdom) of the diesel M4A2 Sherman with 75 mm gun and the largest use of the M4A2 with 76 mm gun. Approximately 4,000 M4A2s were employed by the Red Army. The first M4A2s arrived just before the Battle of Kursk in 1943, but most arrived in 1944/45. A few M4A2 with HVSS suspension tanks were delivered and employed before war's end. In Red Army service the Sherman was quite popular.
[edit]



3 Position according to €œThe Rise and Fall Of Imperial Japan€ ISBN 0861241428

4 1860 Nm / 3 days = 620 Nm per day / 24 = 25,8 Knots


Viking

Frequent_Flyer
09-02-2006, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
OK, here is the deal. The Japanese Pearl Harbor striking force deliberately took the desolate and stormy North Pacific passage to get north of Hawaii before the drive to the south at high speed to launch the attack within, I believe, 200 miles of Oahu at dawn on the 7th. Assuming this Soviet transport bumped into the strike force on the morning of the 7th, while the raids were in progress, it is possible the Japanese would have held their fire because the last thing the Empire of Japan wanted was a war with the USSR. Unfortunately for this interesting story, I've never seen a reference to it in any of the Pearl Harbor sources I've read, including the interestingly conspiratorial DAYS OF INFAMY (Costello) and DAY OF DECEIT. Gordon Prange and his acolytes never found anything like this in their research in Japanese sources. As far as I know, this story is not in the official Japanese history of the raid. It is a good story. A flaw, I suspect, is that such a ship would undoubtably have been sighted by the vengeful Americans scouring the waters around Oahu, and would have been of interest. Having got all of that out of the way, where did you find this story? As for the route---200 miles north of Oahu would, I imagine, still be on the trade route from Oregon to Vladivostok. Furthermore, it would be just like the sneaky Sovs to avoid the normal trade route. This article was referencing the Japanese Kana-code and communiques that were studied after the war. Apparently there were millions of transcribed messages not diciphered dating back to 1940-41 that were attended to after the surrender.

horseback
09-02-2006, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
i dont think our lend lease had extended to the USSR at that point, and I know we werent sending them Shermans until much later to.

May have been transporting some other stuff somewhere else, but this is a bit impossible. Direct US aid to the Soviet Union was indeed taking place at that time. The redoubtable Hubert Zemke, then a young USAAF captain, was in the Murmansk area teaching the finer points of operating the P-40B/C to the Soviets when the US entered the war.

In fact, he very nearly made a premature kill of a Ju 88 druing a check flight of a newly arrived Tomahawk a few weeks before Pearl Harbor. He chased it back over Finnish lines, but realized his 'neutral' status might be jeopardized were the 88's defensive gunners to get lucky...

Shermans may not have been available as part of the aid package at that point of the war, although heavy transport or jeeps may well have been. Shermans do sound more dramatic, though.

As for the route, at that time of year, currents and weather might favor a more southerly route, and the ultimate destination may not have been Vladivostok.

In the Winter, Vladivostok may be icebound. I'd consider a route to Iran or through the Suez and then on to the Black Sea. It may actually have been a faster or more economic route than unloading the ship and putting its cargo on the single railline from Siberia to the western parts of the Soviet Union.

However, the story doesn't ring true to me at all. While the dealings between the Soviet Union and the Empire of Japan during the war years were a bit, shall we say, eccentric?-I doubt that a Soviet (or any) merchantman stumbling across the Pearl Harbor Strike Force would have lasted a minute.

The Japanese would have had ample plausible deniability. Ships disappeared at sea all the time, even back then.

cheers

horseback

berg417448
09-02-2006, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by horseback:


In the Winter, Vladivostok may be icebound. I'd consider a route to Iran or through the Suez and then on to the Black Sea. It may actually have been a faster or more economic route than unloading the ship and putting its cargo on the single railline from Siberia to the western parts of the Soviet Union.


horseback


They would not have had to go through the Suez Canal. A substantial portion of lend lease material was delivered to the Soviets through Persia.

LStarosta
09-02-2006, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Frequent_Flyer:
Some sources seem more reliable than others. I ran across an account of a Russian transport, the Uritsky, Loaded with Sherman tanks it left Portland Ore., on Dec. 4, 1941.

Seems like you ran across one of those unreliable sources.


Originally posted by Frequent_Flyer:
Any mention of this in the Russian history books?

Not the serious ones, I guess. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are serious Russian history textbooks?

Xiolablu3
09-02-2006, 07:02 PM
Like Faustnik says, its impossible.

No M4 Sherman till later in the war.

LStarosta
09-02-2006, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Like Faustnik says, its impossible.

No M4 Sherman till later in the war.

That's what the NKVD wants you to think.