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View Full Version : What is up with the crit nerfs?



Krush.SG
04-17-2019, 07:41 PM
I don't want this to devolve into a mess, I am not seeking votes of support to sling mud at the devs(if you agree with me) and I am not looking for an argument(if you disagree). I simply want an explanation for the nerfs to crit so that I can understand it at a level that allows me to stop harping on this.

There have been 2 consecutive nerfs to CC and CHD since launch, once from WT4 to WT5 and now in the PTS. I ran a high crit/chd rifle build in WT4 and overnight it got nerfed from 57.5% crit to something like 34%(via mod changes), and 114% chd to something like 71%(via CHD nerfs), I apologize as the exact numbers escape me, but these are fairly accurate. Now I wasn't happy with the initial nerf as it is, but the reason given was that the devs felt CHD was rolling too high and seeing as how they brought it in line with HSD in attribute weight, I was able to swallow the change as somewhat logical. I was indeed able to get my CC back up to 52.5% within days of WT5, however, my CHD never saw numbers above 75% ever again and that was a big enough hit to my build that I no longer run a crit build for any of my loadouts(I dont use smg's at all because I don't pvp much).

And now... nerfing critical and surgical? Why? Make no mistake, I am extremely confused and disappointed right now but I am really trying to understand this. What do you(the devs) have against crit? Besides SMG builds(which are virtually non-existent in pve), what about crit makes it so overpowered than it had to be nerfed twice? Why make it such that CC and CHD on talents have a different attribute weight than that on gear? Right now it is 1:1 CHD/HSD and something like 0.75:1 for CC? If anything Critical needed a buff up to 15% to bring it in line with Precise, and Surgical needed to be moved within the range of 10%, not nerfed instead.

When I ran my crit build in WT4 I ran it not because it was OP, but because it was just how my gear turned out. I found more crit gear than wpn dmg/HSD gear and I felt it was good, great even, but certainly no where in the realm of overpowered compared to alternative builds that stacked DTE, wpn dmg or HSD. I'm at the point where I am starting to wonder if the nerfs were actually because of SMGs and even if it were, it still doesnt make sense to me to nerf all crit builds because of 1 weapon type! Widdz build aside, are SMG's really that OP'd? I honestly do not know because I dont pvp at all, I only know what I see in videos and stuff.

Can anyone, dev, mod, player, shed some light to help me understand this?

Thanks!

As1r0nimo
04-17-2019, 07:55 PM
It's nerfed, coz numbers are changed, mobs are changed, PvP is changed, etc.

Lyon-CZ
04-17-2019, 08:35 PM
Nerf. More nerfs. Nerf everything!

Joonnnyy
04-17-2019, 09:58 PM
if you would like to try the new recalibrationstation, you would see that now you can improve your gear by 6 times the amount compared to befor
where befor you had 1% chc/chd improvment possible over found gear foryour gear, now you can get 6% over what you found, if you have gearpieces that have such high values in the first place
this would allow you to use recalibration eg on your chest and backpack to increase chc or chd by 5% for each compared to now, eg by using a pice with high chc, low chd and improving chd

so if you are willing to go and farm again, you could reach higher values then now
sadly this need more time in game to find the items in game but could be worth your while

Krush.SG
04-17-2019, 10:15 PM
if you would like to try the new recalibrationstation, you would see that now you can improve your gear by 6 times the amount compared to befor
where befor you had 1% chc/chd improvment possible over found gear foryour gear, now you can get 6% over what you found, if you have gearpieces that have such high values in the first place
this would allow you to use recalibration eg on your chest and backpack to increase chc or chd by 5% for each compared to now, eg by using a pice with high chc, low chd and improving chd

so if you are willing to go and farm again, you could reach higher values then now
sadly this need more time in game to find the items in game but could be worth your while

Thanks for this info! I still wanna know the reasons behind the nerf eventually, but this definitely does make it at least easier to swallow haha.

Joonnnyy
04-17-2019, 10:26 PM
the reason? i think eveerybody would like to now, i do for sure als well
but we may never hear
also higher difficulty enemies seem to have less hp/dmg so your new and not really nerfd just changed self will fight slightly less spongy enemies


be glad your not smg/clutch/berserk glass canon, as those have no way to regain all their lost dmg

DogBiscuit4U
04-17-2019, 10:58 PM
I don't want this to devolve into a mess, I am not seeking votes of support to sling mud at the devs(if you agree with me) and I am not looking for an argument(if you disagree). I simply want an explanation for the nerfs to crit so that I can understand it at a level that allows me to stop harping on this.

There have been 2 consecutive nerfs to CC and CHD since launch, once from WT4 to WT5 and now in the PTS. I ran a high crit/chd rifle build in WT4 and overnight it got nerfed from 57.5% crit to something like 34%(via mod changes), and 114% chd to something like 71%(via CHD nerfs), I apologize as the exact numbers escape me, but these are fairly accurate. Now I wasn't happy with the initial nerf as it is, but the reason given was that the devs felt CHD was rolling too high and seeing as how they brought it in line with HSD in attribute weight, I was able to swallow the change as somewhat logical. I was indeed able to get my CC back up to 52.5% within days of WT5, however, my CHD never saw numbers above 75% ever again and that was a big enough hit to my build that I no longer run a crit build for any of my loadouts(I dont use smg's at all because I don't pvp much).

And now... nerfing critical and surgical? Why? Make no mistake, I am extremely confused and disappointed right now but I am really trying to understand this. What do you(the devs) have against crit? Besides SMG builds(which are virtually non-existent in pve), what about crit makes it so overpowered than it had to be nerfed twice? Why make it such that CC and CHD on talents have a different attribute weight than that on gear? Right now it is 1:1 CHD/HSD and something like 0.75:1 for CC? If anything Critical needed a buff up to 15% to bring it in line with Precise, and Surgical needed to be moved within the range of 10%, not nerfed instead.

When I ran my crit build in WT4 I ran it not because it was OP, but because it was just how my gear turned out. I found more crit gear than wpn dmg/HSD gear and I felt it was good, great even, but certainly no where in the realm of overpowered compared to alternative builds that stacked DTE, wpn dmg or HSD. I'm at the point where I am starting to wonder if the nerfs were actually because of SMGs and even if it were, it still doesnt make sense to me to nerf all crit builds because of 1 weapon type! Widdz build aside, are SMG's really that OP'd? I honestly do not know because I dont pvp at all, I only know what I see in videos and stuff.

Can anyone, dev, mod, player, shed some light to help me understand this?

Thanks!

Yeah, some light can be shed by not looking at it in a box the way you are.. The number of balance changes coming down the pipe and the places you get higher crit numbers are changing. They don't want builds to be based almost entirely on the talents you pick, they want the stats on the items to be your bulk and the talents and perks to be the frosting. The broken system we've been living in has made us believe that certain values and a huge list of top tier talents are required to even be viable in content, if the content itself is fixed we need to relearn what numbers are viable again and where to get them.

Just because your favorite number got smaller doesn't necessarily mean weaker... unless its a talent, then yeah it got weaker because they don't necessarily want you using that talent as much to get your stat fix. The stat fixes can easily be had now with recalibration.

The talents shouldn't need to be relied upon to make a viable build, everyone is going to complain about talent nerfs until they realise that hopefully the talents will no longer be the end all be all of surviving content, you will hopefully find yourself with a mess of talents someday and realise you are doing ok just based on the stat rolls you had, and all the right talents will be the stretch goal.

DogBiscuit4U
04-17-2019, 11:04 PM
the reason? i think eveerybody would like to now, i do for sure als well
but we may never hear
also higher difficulty enemies seem to have less hp/dmg so your new and not really nerfd just changed self will fight slightly less spongy enemies


be glad your not smg/clutch/berserk glass canon, as those have no way to regain all their lost dmg

Thats right but us AR berserk 11 red builds are still functioning just fine.

Pegasus.69
04-17-2019, 11:11 PM
Dude, people were running around with builds that obviously were not intended. Face tanking super elite mobs with a LMG/AR/SMG builds runing 50-70% crit with heal on crit, not intended. One shot PvP kill build running with a sniper rifle, not intended. Various other combinations are over powered also.

Krush.SG
04-17-2019, 11:14 PM
the reason? i think eveerybody would like to now, i do for sure als well
but we may never hear
also higher difficulty enemies seem to have less hp/dmg so your new and not really nerfd just changed self will fight slightly less spongy enemies

Another interesting and helpful piece of information, cant wait to go in and try it all out. Thanks!


be glad your not smg/clutch/berserk glass canon, as those have no way to regain all their lost dmg

Oh believe me, I have had my fair share of experiences with builds I chosen to run, taken the time to min max and have it get nerfed to the ground, in TD2, TD1 and many other games, so I know how it feels. I dont take issue with the choice to nerf stuff, I simply take issue when an explanation is not provided for a nerf or if the nerf made no sense. For example, crit was not overpowered in PvE and it was not meta, no one was complaining about it so why nerf it? That's my thought process.

As for your build in pvp, the reason for the nerf was actually very obvious, even I saw it coming and I dont pvp at all. Just from watching all the PvP build videos by content creators on twitch and youtube, almost everyone runs some form of clutch/berserk build in pvp. This makes it meta and from what I gather, this build is one hell of a super meta, by a large margin. The reason the devs nerfed it is simply to make way for more builds to be present in pvp, they want build diversity, not 1 build to rule them all.

I hope you dont misunderstand me though, I am not saying I agree that they should have nerfed it, I think they should have buffed other builds to make them viable. I'm just stating the fact that most devs for most games do the same thing when something becomes too meta.

Krush.SG
04-17-2019, 11:24 PM
Dude, people were running around with builds that obviously were not intended. Face tanking super elite mobs with a LMG/AR/SMG builds runing 50-70% crit with heal on crit, not intended. One shot PvP kill build running with a sniper rifle, not intended. Various other combinations are over powered also.

You are completely right. Perhaps I should have made it clearer in my original post that I do not pvp, so my question was from a pve perspective. I was simply under the impression they intended to balance pve separate from pvp and it seemed the opposite might have been happening, and I just wanted to understand it better, that's all.

I also never ran a clutch build in WT4 because of the clutch recalibration bug back then. As I mentioned, I went with a high crit rifle build instead(with a sig, not an mk17), which can't be used with clutch and definitely did not allow me to facetank super elite mobs. I guess because of this, I was not aware of how overpowered crit was, even in pve, so I stand corrected. Apologies.

Krush.SG
04-17-2019, 11:32 PM
Yeah, some light can be shed by not looking at it in a box the way you are.. The number of balance changes coming down the pipe and the places you get higher crit numbers are changing. They don't want builds to be based almost entirely on the talents you pick, they want the stats on the items to be your bulk and the talents and perks to be the frosting. The broken system we've been living in has made us believe that certain values and a huge list of top tier talents are required to even be viable in content, if the content itself is fixed we need to relearn what numbers are viable again and where to get them.

Just because your favorite number got smaller doesn't necessarily mean weaker... unless its a talent, then yeah it got weaker because they don't necessarily want you using that talent as much to get your stat fix. The stat fixes can easily be had now with recalibration.

The talents shouldn't need to be relied upon to make a viable build, everyone is going to complain about talent nerfs until they realise that hopefully the talents will no longer be the end all be all of surviving content, you will hopefully find yourself with a mess of talents someday and realise you are doing ok just based on the stat rolls you had, and all the right talents will be the stretch goal.

Thanks for the explanation, I completely understand and agree, there are many things to look forward too it seems. It would be great to not have to spend hours stash-staring trying to decide between well rolled gear with not so good talents, vs not so well rolled gear with ideal talents. Math hurts my brain haha. I can get behind this direction.