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View Full Version : Why complain about BP but not Warden?



Liduras
04-08-2019, 07:34 PM
When there is even a little distance, BP can not hit with his bash without delaying it. His delayed bash can be dodged early and countered with a GB or side dash attack by guessing (it was possible even before his nerf). It is much easier than avoiding Warden's SB because Warden can feint into GB anytime but BP can GB only at the end of his forward dash. Also, even when you guess wrong against BP, you can still dodge on reaction to avoid damage, but guessing wrong aginst Warden gives him almost guaranteed damage. Warden's damage is higher too. He can GB much easier (then throw a 30 damage heavy). Although Warden is stronger, BP takes all the hate.

atac56
04-08-2019, 08:03 PM
black prior is a new character thats why he gets all the hate. rather than taking the time to learn how to combat a new character most players call for a nerf.

The_B0G_
04-08-2019, 09:03 PM
I think only 2 characters can punish him on reaction, Raider with his dodge+gb, and conq with his dodge+sb.

Also, if you get out of his range, he can heal with his FB, not the greatest strategy.

Baggin_
04-08-2019, 09:15 PM
I think only 2 characters can punish him on reaction, Raider with his dodge+gb, and conq with his dodge+sb.

Also, if you get out of his range, he can heal with his FB, not the greatest strategy.

I mean, technically nobody can punish Wardens shoulder bash since he can cancel it whenever he wants. So basically all you have to do is keep charging it and wait for a reaction. If they dodge too early keep it charged for a fully charged Sb, if they dodge perfectly, just cancel it. If they unlock roll just cancel and dashing heavy and it will get them every time.

allenhollow
04-08-2019, 09:17 PM
warden is a member of the family unlike the other emo can't accept his presence

The_B0G_
04-08-2019, 09:29 PM
I mean, technically nobody can punish Wardens shoulder bash since he can cancel it whenever he wants. So basically all you have to do is keep charging it and wait for a reaction. If they dodge too early keep it charged for a fully charged Sb, if they dodge perfectly, just cancel it. If they unlock roll just cancel and dashing heavy and it will get them every time.

True enough, but Warden doesn't have a FB that counters everything but a GB. Being aggressive against a warden is a viable strategy, doing that to a BP won't work.

Baggin_
04-08-2019, 09:34 PM
True enough, but Warden doesn't have a FB that counters everything but a GB. Being aggressive against a warden is a viable strategy, doing that to a BP won't work.
Well, yes and no. Since they nerfed Bps' all guard he's a lot easier to bait and gb him out of his FB.

Knight_Raime
04-08-2019, 10:06 PM
When there is even a little distance, BP can not hit with his bash without delaying it. His delayed bash can be dodged early and countered with a GB or side dash attack by guessing (it was possible even before his nerf). It is much easier than avoiding Warden's SB because Warden can feint into GB anytime but BP can GB only at the end of his forward dash. Also, even when you guess wrong against BP, you can still dodge on reaction to avoid damage, but guessing wrong aginst Warden gives him almost guaranteed damage. Warden's damage is higher too. He can GB much easier (then throw a 30 damage heavy). Although Warden is stronger, BP takes all the hate.

Because there are only 3 heros in the game who have a consistent punish to dodging his bash. Shaman, raider, and conq. Warden's bash game is punishable by every member of the cast and there are multiple ways to punish it both character specific and universally. Warden's bash is far less safe to use.


I think only 2 characters can punish him on reaction, Raider with his dodge+gb, and conq with his dodge+sb.

Also, if you get out of his range, he can heal with his FB, not the greatest strategy.

Raider and conq can on a dodge. Shaman has to back dash into her headbutt on tight timing. Warden and shinobi on a dodge becomes a mix up game. But that's currently it for people who have the potential to punish on a reaction.


I mean, technically nobody can punish Wardens shoulder bash since he can cancel it whenever he wants. So basically all you have to do is keep charging it and wait for a reaction. If they dodge too early keep it charged for a fully charged Sb, if they dodge perfectly, just cancel it. If they unlock roll just cancel and dashing heavy and it will get them every time.

This is just misinformation. If all a warden does is fully charge and wait for a reaction you can simply light/zone him out or GB him in start up. Both Warden and his opponents have to make reads the entire time. Everyone can punish warden's bash game.

Baggin_
04-08-2019, 10:31 PM
This is just misinformation. If all a warden does is fully charge and wait for a reaction you can simply light/zone him out or GB him in start up. Both Warden and his opponents have to make reads the entire time. Everyone can punish warden's bash game.

That wasn't misinformation.
That's all any Warden main does. Plus he can cancel his charge in time to parry the lite so throwing a lite on reaction doesn't work.

Knight_Raime
04-08-2019, 10:34 PM
That wasn't misinformation.
That's all any Warden main does. Plus he can cancel his charge in time to parry the lite so throwing a lite on reaction doesn't work.

He cannot cancel a charge and parry on reaction. You have zero clue on what you're talking about.
Maybe in low tier land where people struggle to block 500ms combo lights Warden is a reaction god who can't be touched.
Try playing against actually decent people and then you'll understand why your perception of warden is incredibly flawed.

Baggin_
04-08-2019, 10:35 PM
He cannot cancel a charge and parry on reaction. You have zero clue on what you're talking about.
Maybe in low tier land where people struggle to block 500ms combo lights Warden is a reaction god who can't be touched.
Try playing against actually decent people and then you'll understand why your perception of warden is incredibly flawed.

Lol I really don't know what to say to that.

That was a jerk thing to say, and yes you can cancel the charge and parry the lite. You should play against either this guy named PlayFiends or Iced sellout.

Baggin_
04-08-2019, 10:55 PM
He cannot cancel a charge and parry on reaction. You have zero clue on what you're talking about.
Maybe in low tier land where people struggle to block 500ms combo lights Warden is a reaction god who can't be touched.
Try playing against actually decent people and then you'll understand why your perception of warden is incredibly flawed.

Although if I were to bet on who your main is, I would put my money on Warden.

Knight_Raime
04-08-2019, 11:19 PM
Lol

While my reaction isn't...right for me to do it's 100% warrented in my book. It's frustrating to constantly have to explain in detail why someone's information is flat out incorrect. Maybe I wouldn't mind if I was asked why instead it would be easier for me. I understand that I don't know everything, and that if I was some random person posting for the first few times that skepticisim would be warrented. But i've pretty much established myself here. You guys know me. So i'd expect at least the benefit of the doubt. But anyway. With the explanation of my outburst out of the way. Let me EXPLAIN Warden to you:

Warden has 3 level's of his bash. Uncharged, charging, and full charged. The competitive community refers to them as level 1 ,2 and 3. So from this point forward so will I. His level 1 bash can't be lighteded as a counter. This is because the earliest he can do his bash is 300ms into his dodge. However this bash can be beaten with a dodge attack or dodge GB. Further more you can dodge GB it because the recovery on the whiffed bash (at any level of charge) is long. You can even GB him in start up of the bash.

His level 2 bash can be beaten out by a light/zone, a GB in start up, a dodge attack, or a dodge into a roll. Because he is charging you can technically dodge early and still have time to dodge again to avoid his level 2. Everything that beats his level 2 bash will also beat his level 3 bash barring hitting him out of it because at this point he has armor. But this is fine. Because at this point you have ample time to straight up avoid and punish.

It's also worth mentioning that you can still entirely avoid his bash game while out of stamina. You can still dodge early and then dodge again to correctly avoid his level 2 and 3 bash. In addition to the above universal ways to avoid/punish his bash there are character specific ones as well. For instance, gladiator's backwards heavy spaces warden out completely. Warden can't approach gladiator because his heavies have long range. And due to their attack speed you can't attempt to even GB it as a response. and since they're feintable trying to parry them is a bad idea. Valk of course has her shield tackle. It avoids all of warden's offensive options on reaction and can punish most of them. Raider can dodge GB or threaten with stunning tap on dodge. Warden can punish the latter on a read. But not the former. etc.

Warden (for the most part) can technically counter any universal way to punish him. But due to the timings of things none of it can be done on reaction. If he tries to feint GB or feint into dodge heavy in reaction to your dodge into roll his GB bounces off and the person rolling can block the dodge heavy. Warden has to throw the dodge heavy while you are in the middle of doing your dodge in order for it to land. Because then it will hit you while you are transitioning into roll. Feint into GB only works out because you're catching them in the start up of the dodge timing wise. If you try to do it on reaction it's too slow and they can CGB. It's mega unsafe to do against someone who has a dodge attack because then you're punished.

Warden can feint to parry a zone/light attempt. But not on reaction. Because there is a brief recovery period after feinting before you can do any action. And if the person is timing their attack with your charge right there is no brief period for you to wait on their input. They're already attacking you once you start charging. To try to frame it in numbers you have to charge and then input feint immediately. Practically simultaneously on your inputs. This visually would look like you almost didn't even charge. You need to do this because as mentioned previously the earliest you can input your bash is 300ms into your dodge. If the person is using a 500ms attack that means you effectively have a 200ms window to react. This doesn't factor in guard switch time or the recovery you're put into after a feint.

Essentially speaking if the attack is 600ms or faster parrying is not a reaction with warden. It's a read. The one method I haven't mentioned is feinting a charging bash into an uncharged bash. This can punish someone who messed up their dodge timing and they're going for a second dodge or a roll. But it's incredibly situational so it's rarely used. So this brings us full circle. Warden can't punish his opponent on reaction because properly timed/used punishes put them out of reaction territory. But this doesn't mean Warden's opponent is free to punish him on reaction. If Warden baits his opponent into reading him wrong Warden can punish the wrong read.

Warden has the advantage here because people are forced to play his game. And due to the flexibility and strengths of his bash/kit Warden can punish attempted punishes on him. Something most hero's can't do. But because none of Warden's options are safe and the risk he puts himself in every time he tries to be offensive/punish Warden can't just spam out things at random and win. Warden needs to read his opponent and act accordingly. And his opponent needs to Ready Warden correctly and act accordingly.

Knight_Raime
04-08-2019, 11:21 PM
Although if I were to bet on who your main is, I would put my money on Warden.

Warden has never been my main. He's been one of my 3 pocket characters for sometime now. But never my main.
It was Centurion from Season 2 to season 6. Black prior is my main at this time.

EDIT: I'm having to get off my computer now. The desk is getting used by someone else.
If you reply to my lengthy post with a lengthy reply of your own, or I am required to give yet another detailed response it's going to have to wait till later tonight. Otherwise i'll respond on mobile when I am able.

UbiInsulin
04-08-2019, 11:21 PM
Let's avoid the "git guds" and variants thereof, if you please.


warden is a member of the family unlike the other emo can't accept his presence

Dang that's harsh.

https://media.tenor.com/images/edb9d01f0faa6f7b46acd34d35a2478f/tenor.gif

Knight_Raime
04-08-2019, 11:28 PM
Let's avoid the "git guds" and variants thereof, if you please.



Dang that's harsh.

Yeah I explained myself and then gave a proper response. Not changing my mean response though. Would be saving face and I don't do that.

RenegadeRasta
04-08-2019, 11:40 PM
Knight Raime still being a **** and giving the devs free rimjobs.

Knight_Raime
04-09-2019, 12:02 AM
Knight Raime still being a **** and giving the devs free rimjobs.

Renegade still attacking players instead of the argument.

Sweaty_Sock
04-09-2019, 04:53 AM
Knight_Raime - right on the interrupts, timings etc.

Baggin_ - I believe referring to parry fishing with the shoulderbash. To do this you have to essentially do the equivalent of a feint - you start a shoulderbash with the intention of cancelling to parry whatever it rattles loose. To help deal with this remember which stance the warden was in before he started the bash when you are going for a light interrupt as per Raime suggestion. Hit somehwere his stance isnt (preferably the side) Also if he is doing this alot just throw a few GB's, the penalty for cancelling SB is exactly the same for a flash second as for 1% off full charge, so if the warden does this without getting the parry they are burning a significant chunk of stamina

Also on topic I complain often, and loudly about the warden, and I am a rep 70 warden (hate the rework, just had invested that much time in it that I thought I'd push through to rep 70). He is too much of a one trick pony with a lack of other kit

Jazz117Volkov
04-09-2019, 05:13 AM
...I am a rep 70 warden (hate the rework, just had invested that much time in it that I thought I'd push through to rep 70). He is too much of a one trick pony with a lack of other kit

I'm at rep 62, if I recall. Been a Warden main since launch, and I have to agree to a certain extent. Warden is the n00btube, and maybe the best newbie stomper this side of Centurion, but at higher level you still can't really do anything against a stubborn opponent. It's all reads from neutral, your bash mix-ups cost too much stamina to actually be useful in the middle of a bout.

I'll always love the Warden to bits, just 'cause, but as a Warden main, I do feel pushed aside by the devs. My kit is painfully bland compared to the gradient pressure Lawbringer can bring, or the chaos Shaman administers. Warden's max power is two moves deep, then you reset to neutral.

ArchDukeInstinct
04-09-2019, 05:26 AM
Although Warden is stronger, BP takes all the hate.

I don't think BP gets all that much hate really. At least not compared to what I've seen thrown at other classes. You should have seen the nonsense that Conqueror had to put up with in 2018, and funnily enough a lot of the people that cried back then because Conqueror's shield bash wasn't "punishable enough" now think BP is totally fine with an even more forgiving bash recovery. It's just too hilarious.

Klingentaenz3r
04-09-2019, 08:30 AM
While my reaction isn't...right for me to do it's 100% warrented in my book. It's frustrating to constantly have to explain in detail why someone's information is flat out incorrect. Maybe I wouldn't mind if I was asked why instead it would be easier for me. I understand that I don't know everything, and that if I was some random person posting for the first few times that skepticisim would be warrented. But i've pretty much established myself here. You guys know me. So i'd expect at least the benefit of the doubt. But anyway. With the explanation of my outburst out of the way. Let me EXPLAIN Warden to you:

Warden has 3 level's of his bash. Uncharged, charging, and full charged. The competitive community refers to them as level 1 ,2 and 3. So from this point forward so will I. His level 1 bash can't be lighteded as a counter. This is because the earliest he can do his bash is 300ms into his dodge. However this bash can be beaten with a dodge attack or dodge GB. Further more you can dodge GB it because the recovery on the whiffed bash (at any level of charge) is long. You can even GB him in start up of the bash.

His level 2 bash can be beaten out by a light/zone, a GB in start up, a dodge attack, or a dodge into a roll. Because he is charging you can technically dodge early and still have time to dodge again to avoid his level 2. Everything that beats his level 2 bash will also beat his level 3 bash barring hitting him out of it because at this point he has armor. But this is fine. Because at this point you have ample time to straight up avoid and punish.

It's also worth mentioning that you can still entirely avoid his bash game while out of stamina. You can still dodge early and then dodge again to correctly avoid his level 2 and 3 bash. In addition to the above universal ways to avoid/punish his bash there are character specific ones as well. For instance, gladiator's backwards heavy spaces warden out completely. Warden can't approach gladiator because his heavies have long range. And due to their attack speed you can't attempt to even GB it as a response. and since they're feintable trying to parry them is a bad idea. Valk of course has her shield tackle. It avoids all of warden's offensive options on reaction and can punish most of them. Raider can dodge GB or threaten with stunning tap on dodge. Warden can punish the latter on a read. But not the former. etc.

Warden (for the most part) can technically counter any universal way to punish him. But due to the timings of things none of it can be done on reaction. If he tries to feint GB or feint into dodge heavy in reaction to your dodge into roll his GB bounces off and the person rolling can block the dodge heavy. Warden has to throw the dodge heavy while you are in the middle of doing your dodge in order for it to land. Because then it will hit you while you are transitioning into roll. Feint into GB only works out because you're catching them in the start up of the dodge timing wise. If you try to do it on reaction it's too slow and they can CGB. It's mega unsafe to do against someone who has a dodge attack because then you're punished.

Warden can feint to parry a zone/light attempt. But not on reaction. Because there is a brief recovery period after feinting before you can do any action. And if the person is timing their attack with your charge right there is no brief period for you to wait on their input. They're already attacking you once you start charging. To try to frame it in numbers you have to charge and then input feint immediately. Practically simultaneously on your inputs. This visually would look like you almost didn't even charge. You need to do this because as mentioned previously the earliest you can input your bash is 300ms into your dodge. If the person is using a 500ms attack that means you effectively have a 200ms window to react. This doesn't factor in guard switch time or the recovery you're put into after a feint.

Essentially speaking if the attack is 600ms or faster parrying is not a reaction with warden. It's a read. The one method I haven't mentioned is feinting a charging bash into an uncharged bash. This can punish someone who messed up their dodge timing and they're going for a second dodge or a roll. But it's incredibly situational so it's rarely used. So this brings us full circle. Warden can't punish his opponent on reaction because properly timed/used punishes put them out of reaction territory. But this doesn't mean Warden's opponent is free to punish him on reaction. If Warden baits his opponent into reading him wrong Warden can punish the wrong read.

Warden has the advantage here because people are forced to play his game. And due to the flexibility and strengths of his bash/kit Warden can punish attempted punishes on him. Something most hero's can't do. But because none of Warden's options are safe and the risk he puts himself in every time he tries to be offensive/punish Warden can't just spam out things at random and win. Warden needs to read his opponent and act accordingly. And his opponent needs to Ready Warden correctly and act accordingly.

thx Raime for laying that out in detail for those guys. Glad I don't have to do it. And I fully understand you saying that it is sometimes quite exhausting to see posts like this which are already so stubbornly solt out on their biased views that it hurts to read. So thank you again for that. Hopefully it makes a difference.

To sum it up, and yes I am a rep 60+ Warden main, Warden is all about reads but dodge into rolling properly used cancels out his shoulder bash approaches entirely and every option is punishable. BP is very safe with his shieldbash and it also drains much more stamina from the opponent than shoulderbash. I can easily deal with an Aramusha against Warden as he is approachable and can be defended against well. It is an entirely different story against BP (I play BP too so I am fully aware of his kit and capabilities too). It is of course possible to fight and win but BP is much more uptight with his defense and hard to crack due to the unpunishable shieldbash (viewpoint of aramusha) threat of CC, parry and of course bulwark counter on combo entry but also on reaction on the deadly feints. And of course the constant forward pressure and possible stamina drain is what really kills fights easily. Warden matches are far more enjoyable.

But don't get this wrong, I would love to see some changes to the Warden's kit and have the actual swordmoves be more extended and made more viable as it is very limited atm and it would be nice to have less focus on the shoulderbash.

garr1999
04-09-2019, 08:52 AM
Warden's rework made him bland but he can still be off/def
however the nerf to black prior's fullblock also
made him weak on an offensive/defensive standpoint he was already
nerfed after release and the only thing that made him good was his bulwark counter and bashes
which he can't use anymore for the fact of slow recovery which crippled him in my opinion
however I can understand why he was nerfed twice but they could of just taken his ability to change guard
during a dodge he can't side bash like conqueror can BP can only forward bash

Klingentaenz3r
04-09-2019, 09:11 AM
Warden's rework made him bland but he can still be off/def
however the nerf to black prior's fullblock also
made him weak on an offensive/defensive standpoint he was already
nerfed after release and the only thing that made him good was his bulwark counter and bashes
which he can't use anymore for the fact of slow recovery which crippled him in my opinion


Why do you think it crippled him garr? In what situations? The change was needed as he was able to go out of fullblock on reaction to a feint. So high tier players would be able to deny any gb punish attempt. I also think that the most important, valuable and effective part of bulwark stance is still the fast flowing after an attack or after blocking an attack. Making him still incredibly strong to counter lots of mix ups. And going into fullblock from neutral is as fast as before.

I for one just have issues with the remaining bugs I encounter with his bulwark which are not yet fixed (BP going for a BWC although an unblockable was input after tenebris rising)

Knight_Raime
04-09-2019, 12:02 PM
thx Raime for laying that out in detail for those guys. Glad I don't have to do it. And I fully understand you saying that it is sometimes quite exhausting to see posts like this which are already so stubbornly solt out on their biased views that it hurts to read. So thank you again for that. Hopefully it makes a difference.

To sum it up, and yes I am a rep 60+ Warden main, Warden is all about reads but dodge into rolling properly used cancels out his shoulder bash approaches entirely and every option is punishable. BP is very safe with his shieldbash and it also drains much more stamina from the opponent than shoulderbash. I can easily deal with an Aramusha against Warden as he is approachable and can be defended against well. It is an entirely different story against BP (I play BP too so I am fully aware of his kit and capabilities too). It is of course possible to fight and win but BP is much more uptight with his defense and hard to crack due to the unpunishable shieldbash (viewpoint of aramusha) threat of CC, parry and of course bulwark counter on combo entry but also on reaction on the deadly feints. And of course the constant forward pressure and possible stamina drain is what really kills fights easily. Warden matches are far more enjoyable.

But don't get this wrong, I would love to see some changes to the Warden's kit and have the actually swordmoves be more extended and made more viable as it is very limited atm and it would be nice to have less focus on the shoulderbash.

I should also mention that I specifically try to avoid explanations outside the opening statement of my own threads specifically because i've been given so much crap in the past for being overly wordy. I do try to trim my responses to not add additional information that's not needed at the time of replying. But still. I wouldn't blame Baggin or anyone else to skip right over my wall of text. Those are not fun to read most of the time.

I only decided to do so to both validate my arrogance and also to inform Baggin to the best of my ability. All I seek to do on the forums here is to attempt to bridge the gap between the average player and the competitive one. Because the only thing that seperates them imho is knowledge. I don't care if Baggin still dislikes Warden's kit after i've explained how it works. All that I look for is for the people who respond to me is an open mind/willingness to be wrong. It's something I strive for within myself. My experience with @Archdukeinstinct on here has proven that I didn't know a character as well as I thought I did. Which has kept me humble. Even though me and him don't get along I still appreciate his willingness to call me on my **** with actual information. Rather than only focusing on attacking me.

Sweaty_Sock
04-09-2019, 12:11 PM
Knight_Raime - right on the interrupts, timings etc.

Baggin_ - I believe referring to parry fishing with the shoulderbash. To do this you have to essentially do the equivalent of a feint - you start a shoulderbash with the intention of cancelling to parry whatever it rattles loose. To help deal with this remember which stance the warden was in before he started the bash when you are going for a light interrupt as per Raime suggestion. Hit somehwere his stance isnt (preferably the side) Also if he is doing this alot just throw a few GB's, the penalty for cancelling SB is exactly the same for a flash second as for 1% off full charge, so if the warden does this without getting the parry they are burning a significant chunk of stamina

Also on topic I complain often, and loudly about the warden, and I am a rep 70 warden (hate the rework, just had invested that much time in it that I thought I'd push through to rep 70). He is too much of a one trick pony with a lack of other kit

I don't like quoting myself but it seems list in the mix. Most what Raime says here is correct. Also what Baggin_ is saying

EDIT: Someone disagreeing with you isnt a personal attack. Every chill the *raider tapping* out

Siegfried-Z
04-09-2019, 02:08 PM
When there is even a little distance, BP can not hit with his bash without delaying it. His delayed bash can be dodged early and countered with a GB or side dash attack by guessing (it was possible even before his nerf). It is much easier than avoiding Warden's SB because Warden can feint into GB anytime but BP can GB only at the end of his forward dash. Also, even when you guess wrong against BP, you can still dodge on reaction to avoid damage, but guessing wrong aginst Warden gives him almost guaranteed damage. Warden's damage is higher too. He can GB much easier (then throw a 30 damage heavy). Although Warden is stronger, BP takes all the hate.

Warden SB = Got dmg if he catch you/Opponent got dmg on Warden with a correct read.

BP SB = Got dmg if he catch you/Opponent (except a very few) got nothing with a correct read.

BP has almost zero risk to use his while Warden puts himself in a risky situation each time.

Simple as that.

EvoX.
04-09-2019, 09:28 PM
Prior is stronger, he's more consistent because of his safety. He deserves all the hate he gets and more - in the end, he turned out to just be another bash abuser, only it's even worse because it's the first truly unpunishable move in the game, and for how much it guarantees, that continues to be idiotic. Although at this point it's kind of obvious the developers have no intention of not designing characters around a single, annoying move (apparently the extent of their abilities/imagination), it's still pretty sad how they're totally okay with his state and how every Prior player, from below average to top competitive, uses him in the exact same way. Frustrating, boring, unfair to play against.

Assuming equal skill between two opponents, the Prior player will always win unless he's against Raider or Conq. The amount of skill you need to have over a Prior player in order to win is the highest required among all other characters, unreasonably so, and that's... not okay.

FlyinBeef
04-09-2019, 09:45 PM
black prior is a new character thats why he gets all the hate. rather than taking the time to learn how to combat a new character most players call for a nerf.

New character? BP in the game more than two months now. Everyone has already tried to learn to play against him, he is just very strong, he is S-Tier #1 in tournament tierlist from top players, a lot of top players play him in ranked in grand-master. I don't think BarakYEET or Setmyx playing him because he look very cool, probably he is just OP thanks to unpunishable bash.

HKPirate
04-10-2019, 08:08 PM
To even think warden or BP is op compared to shaman, centurion, Jiang, shaolin is rediculous.

Playing_Mantis
04-10-2019, 09:38 PM
the only reason we stopped complaining about the conq in 2018 is because we gave up knowing the devs didn't really give 2 ****s. Warden is super boring S tier character thats a one trick pony. He's very strong and the best players play warden more than bp to be honest. warden is the poster child of for honor so don't think he's ever going to be a balanced character. id rather face a bp any day over a warden spamming the bash over and over and over and over.

atac56
04-10-2019, 10:06 PM
New character? BP in the game more than two months now. Everyone has already tried to learn to play against him, he is just very strong, he is S-Tier #1 in tournament tierlist from top players, a lot of top players play him in ranked in grand-master. I don't think BarakYEET or Setmyx playing him because he look very cool, probably he is just OP thanks to unpunishable bash.

new because he's the most recently released character. i dont believe black prior to be S tier, and his bash is punishable. some characters like the raider can dodge it and punish. he's not that great a character, he isnt now and never was. he's got no tracking on his forward heavy and running heavy, no hyper armor, no all guard stance, and limited mix-ups. thats my own opinion from my own experiences

Siegfried-Z
04-10-2019, 11:48 PM
To even think warden or BP is op compared to shaman, centurion, Jiang, shaolin is rediculous.

I dont want to be rude. But after reading this plus your comment on 600ms Nobu lights being fine, i think you're just not playing at a good level enough to understand the point here.


new because he's the most recently released character. i dont believe black prior to be S tier, and his bash is punishable. some characters like the raider can dodge it and punish. he's not that great a character, he isnt now and never was. he's got no tracking on his forward heavy and running heavy, no hyper armor, no all guard stance, and limited mix-ups. thats my own opinion from my own experiences

-Believe it or not BP is S tier in the competitive tier list made by top players

-His bash isnt punishable. Dont write wrong information just because a few heroes can do it with some special mooves others doesnt have (such as Raider Dodge GB). His bash inst vulnerable to Dodge GB for all others and most Dodge attacks doesnt work except bash one's. Everyone know it.

-No all guard ? Are you sure ?

Tbh i find a little bit funny to see you saying BP isnt only fine but almost weak while i remember you asking here for a KENSEI nerf not so long ago... it look a little bit biased dont you think ?

HKPirate
04-11-2019, 05:27 AM
I dont want to be rude. But after reading this plus your comment on 600ms Nobu lights being fine, i think you're just not playing at a good level enough to understand the point here.



-Believe it or not BP is S tier in the competitive tier list made by top players

-His bash isnt punishable. Dont write wrong information just because a few heroes can do it with some special mooves others doesnt have (such as Raider Dodge GB). His bash inst vulnerable to Dodge GB for all others and most Dodge attacks doesnt work except bash one's. Everyone know it.

-No all guard ? Are you sure ?

Tbh i find a little bit funny to see you saying BP isnt only fine but almost weak while i remember you asking here for a KENSEI nerf not so long ago... it look a little bit biased dont you think ?

Lol saying bp's bash isnt punishable you prove you arent at the level you think you are.

Klingentaenz3r
04-11-2019, 08:09 AM
Lol saying bp's bash isnt punishable you prove you arent at the level you think you are.

BP's shieldbash tenebris rising is only punishable reliably by 3 characters. Which are Warden, Conq and Raider. Not sure about nobushi but I think the kick may be too slow and dodgable after hidden stance. All other options can be blocked obviously. Lawbringer can only enter his bash mix up but nothing is guaranteed from there so meh - not reliable

GB after dodge is only possible if you're pre-dodging the bash meaning you have to make a hard read and dodge on the same time your opponent starts to dodge. Otherwise the GB is never guaranteed.

Out of currently 25 characters 3 only with an option to punish is way too low.

Knight_Raime
04-11-2019, 09:08 AM
BP's shieldbash tenebris rising is only punishable reliably by 3 characters. Which are Warden, Conq and Raider. Not sure about nobushi but I think the kick may be too slow and dodgable after hidden stance. All other options can be blocked obviously. Lawbringer can only enter his bash mix up but nothing is guaranteed from there so meh - not reliable

GB after dodge is only possible if you pre-dodging the bash meaning you have to make a hard read and dodge on the same time your opponent starts to dodge. Otherwise the GB is never guaranteed.

Out of currently 25 characters 3 only with an option to punish is way too low.

Actually there are only two heros who can reliably punish it. Raider and conq. Shaman technically can with a back dodge into her bash but the timing is super super super strict.

Warden and shinobi enter a mix up upon dodging the bash.

Siegfried-Z
04-11-2019, 09:20 AM
Lol saying bp's bash isnt punishable you prove you arent at the level you think you are.

Thanks, i dont need to say more. You just show you have no clue about FH yourself.

Klingentaenz3r
04-11-2019, 10:59 AM
Warden and shinobi enter a mix up upon dodging the bash.

What are you implying? a normal bash guarantees double side lights or a top light and I am pretty certain the lvl 1 bash as a reaction to tenebris rising cannot be dodged..:confused:

Sweaty_Sock
04-11-2019, 11:26 AM
Not everything has to be punishable, you just work the parts of your kit that are effective

BP has to either:
1) land a light
2) dash

Dodging on either of those gives a punish for me most of the time? (rather than the bash) & the forced bash after makes you GB proof (i.e. dodge/block the light or dodge on dodge)

I agree hes powerful don't get me wrong, but I have lost to 1 bp in about 2 weeks and that guy was already pushing rep 20 (on BP) & using heavy wiffs into allguard/flip baits etc.

EDIT: the undodgable heavy f/up is slooooow (dodge light block heavy) & a 17 damage followup lights not so bad to cop once in a while

EDIT EDIT: PUNISH is only guaranteed by a few (unless you dodge on the combo lead-in) , however most can force a 50/50 out of the BP (he has to dodge) meaning you can start mixing bash/s unblockables into GB on dodge and you will meet some success

EDIT EDIT EDIT: his GB range needs the nerf. He shouldnt be grabbing at assassin distantances when dodging is his main counterplay. Also crushing counters are not needed on his lights... maybe give them a window on his heavies

# NERF WARDEN - a rep 70 warden

LionsFang78
04-11-2019, 01:29 PM
BP is only S tier because his bash is safe. Should it be punishable? Yes. Would that alone balance BP? Absolutely not. Make the bash punishable via GB if dodged, but he'll require compensation in other areas lest BP become just barely viable at mid level play.

Klingentaenz3r
04-11-2019, 01:41 PM
BP is only S tier because his bash is safe. Should it be punishable? Yes. Would that alone balance BP? Absolutely not. Make the bash punishable via GB if dodged, but he'll require compensation in other areas lest BP become just barely viable at mid level play.

It's a great factor but not all there is to it. His kit revolves around a tight defense. And even if he were more punishable on his bash he would be still powerful. light into heavy would still catch dodge attempts, his CC mechanic would be still unrivaled in 2v2s as well as the usefulness of his bulwark stance and its counter with 100% damage reduction.

He in fact would have to rely abit more on his counter attacking parts and master the usage of BWC against chains. A good BP would still be strong. Not S Tier in duels though.

But no doubt he could use some more stuff on the rest of his kit to expand it a little bit and make it more interesting.

atac56
04-11-2019, 03:16 PM
-Believe it or not BP is S tier in the competitive tier list made by top players

-His bash isnt punishable. Dont write wrong information just because a few heroes can do it with some special mooves others doesnt have (such as Raider Dodge GB). His bash inst vulnerable to Dodge GB for all others and most Dodge attacks doesnt work except bash one's. Everyone know it.

-No all guard ? Are you sure ?

Tbh i find a little bit funny to see you saying BP isnt only fine but almost weak while i remember you asking here for a KENSEI nerf not so long ago... it look a little bit biased dont you think ?

i meant to type in superior block on all guard stance. when he's hit in his stance he staggers, he cant immediately counterattack after being hit in that stance unlike most characters with all guard.

of course im going to sound biased because those are my opinions. i think the kensei is one of the better characters in the game, well above the black prior. majority of the forum community calling the black prior an S tier hero and doesnt make it a fact. majority of the forum community also believes the berserker to be S tier which is an opinion i agree with. how the berserker and the black prior can be on the same level is beyond me

Knight_Raime
04-11-2019, 07:12 PM
What are you implying? a normal bash guarantees double side lights or a top light and I am pretty certain the lvl 1 bash as a reaction to tenebris rising cannot be dodged..:confused:

Level 1 bash can be dodged by black prior. The reason conq's bash lands is because of it's better tracking and because his bash can be initated 100ms into his dodge. Where as Warden's bash has to wait until at least 300ms into his dodge.

Knight_Raime
04-11-2019, 07:29 PM
i meant to type in superior block on all guard stance. when he's hit in his stance he staggers, he cant immediately counterattack after being hit in that stance unlike most characters with all guard.

of course im going to sound biased because those are my opinions. i think the kensei is one of the better characters in the game, well above the black prior. majority of the forum community calling the black prior an S tier hero and doesnt make it a fact. majority of the forum community also believes the berserker to be S tier which is an opinion i agree with. how the berserker and the black prior can be on the same level is beyond me

The stagger in his FB means very little unless you're ganking him. And even if you are he can still input his bullwark counter to catch the person you're ganking with. All the stagger does is prevent him from leavin BW immediately after taking a hit. And even though there is no superior block lights will still bounce on it.

Kensei is decent due to his top heavy mix ups and his ability to trade with his aoe. But in regards to a 1v1 engagement he falls very quickly. Majority of his mix ups can be stuffed on reaction with option selects. He has zero mid chain pressure. And his pommel opener really isn't a threat unless you are near OOS or are OOS. He also has some of the worst match ups in the game with current S tier heros like conq.

Berzerker is S tier in duels only afaik. This is due to his sheer speed, easy access to trade, viable unblockable openers, ability to cover both of his own downsides, generous input windows with feints, and the fact that he has zero bad or unfavorable match ups.

Black prior is S tier due to having only 2 bad match ups. Bullwark counter being able to situationally punish after being hit stunned and beating out most gank attempts via fast flows. A basically unpunishable bash attack. The ability to negate 400ms offense with both fast flow into bullwark and instant guard on dodge. Having crushing counter as an option select tool similar to valk. And finally his unblockable heavy/undodgable heavy finisher mix up being quite oppressive.

As far as 4's go BP isn't S tier afaik but he's not a slouch either. You basically can't 1v1 him barring his 2 counters. And while he doesn't have anything particularly amazing to add to a team fight he's not inherently weak in a team fight either. him and Zerk are kind of in the same position. Both great 1v1ers but both lack in chase down. The fact that he can back up in FB and heal at the same time while threatening with an UB or a potential flip is also a major factor for his good performance in 4's.

You likely haven't connected the dots on why his kit is as good as it is. Or what you consider qualities for S tier heros are not what is considered the qualities/guidelines that are generally accepted from the competitive community. Yes their opinions are not empirically correct. But at the very least they probably understand the game on a much deeper level then you. So their opinions should at least be worth considering.

HKPirate
04-13-2019, 06:24 AM
Siegfried you sit here complaining about 1 move a charge move saying it's not punishable, all it takes is back dodge back and light attack boom hes hit while coming up short because it has zero range. You want some cookie cutter way to beat every characters moves with your character to you can follow a rotation instead of actually using skill. I dont know what you main but, I'd be willing to bet it's something that has a similar move not a bash per say but an attack that is hard to punish or cannot be punished by everyone. Also missing bashes will leave the BP with zero stamina quickly and if you cannot punish that then lay your controller down and go play forknife. Seems like it would fit you better.

Siegfried-Z
04-13-2019, 08:24 AM
Siegfried you sit here complaining about 1 move a charge move saying it's not punishable, all it takes is back dodge back and light attack boom hes hit while coming up short because it has zero range. You want some cookie cutter way to beat every characters moves with your character to you can follow a rotation instead of actually using skill. I dont know what you main but, I'd be willing to bet it's something that has a similar move not a bash per say but an attack that is hard to punish or cannot be punished by everyone. Also missing bashes will leave the BP with zero stamina quickly and if you cannot punish that then lay your controller down and go play forknife. Seems like it would fit you better.

Man dont get Mad at me because i've highlights what everyone already saw : you have no clue about for honor .

Of course i am not always right but overall i know what i am talking about and my name is known here for a year.

So first of, I AM not complaining, everyone is about BP bash recovery.
Back Dodge into light, even 400ms neutral one doesnt work on reaction. You have to predict it.

Dont enter in the poor argue of what i am maining or not, this is irrelevant. Even more when you know i am mostly playing low or mid tier heroes. But doesnt matter.

You should keep calm and not say kid things such as i want an easy mode game or i should play something else etc. This is also irrelevant.

In another hand you just proove yourself your lack of skills and understanding of FH by saying BP bash is 100% fine but in another thread saying Cent is so strong and doesnt need a buff......Cent is weak man.

So, saying BP is fine but Cent too strong looks extremly biased and low level view of the game.

Just git gud and came back here.

Klingentaenz3r
04-13-2019, 03:17 PM
Level 1 bash can be dodged by black prior. The reason conq's bash lands is because of it's better tracking and because his bash can be initated 100ms into his dodge. Where as Warden's bash has to wait until at least 300ms into his dodge.

try to test it again. I cannot come to that conclusion after checking up on it myself ... but at least I granted you the benefit of the doubt ;-)

Liduras
04-14-2019, 09:12 AM
Sorry for the late reply, but i want to explain why BP is weaker than you think.

Unless BP is at the closest possible distance, he needs to delay his bash. The nonexistent range and tracking of his SB allows you to avoid almost all of the delayed SB timings with an early backdodge (keep walking back to avoid even later bashes), then counter with a GB. You can roll away against forward dash into zone on reaction (you can recover your stamina before BP can get closer), and counter GB against his forward dash into GB on reaction.

If BP can throw his SB without delaying, it is your fault for turtling at that distance. Most heroes with a viable offence can initiate their unreactable mixups from a longer range.

It is basically a nerfed version of Warden's SB. Warden can feint into GB anytime but BP needs to finish his forward dash to GB. Warden's early dodge counter mixup (fully charged bash and feint into valiant breakthrough) can not be avoided on reaction, but BP's early dodge counter mixup (zone, GB and forward dash heavy) can be avoided on reaction. When you expect a delayed SB from Warden but he uses uncharged SB, you take guaranteed damage. But when BP uses his bash earlier than you guess, you can still dodge it on reaction to avoid damage. A backdodge counters a lot of bash timings against BP, but Warden's SB has a much smaller dodge timing.

The_B0G_
04-14-2019, 02:58 PM
Sorry for the late reply, but i want to explain why BP is weaker than you think.

Unless BP is at the closest possible distance, he needs to delay his bash. The nonexistent range and tracking of his SB allows you to avoid almost all of the delayed SB timings with an early backdodge (keep walking back to avoid even later bashes), then counter with a GB. You can roll away against forward dash into zone on reaction (you can recover your stamina before BP can get closer), and counter GB against his forward dash into GB on reaction.

If BP can throw his SB without delaying, it is your fault for turtling at that distance. Most heroes with a viable offence can initiate their unreactable mixups from a longer range.

It is basically a nerfed version of Warden's SB. Warden can feint into GB anytime but BP needs to finish his forward dash to GB. Warden's early dodge counter mixup (fully charged bash and feint into valiant breakthrough) can not be avoided on reaction, but BP's early dodge counter mixup (zone, GB and forward dash heavy) can be avoided on reaction. When you expect a delayed SB from Warden but he uses uncharged SB, you take guaranteed damage. But when BP uses his bash earlier than you guess, you can still dodge it on reaction to avoid damage. A backdodge counters a lot of bash timings against BP, but Warden's SB has a much smaller dodge timing.

One flaw of this entire dodge back theory is it's only good in duel mode. If you give BP space with his heal on block perk he will just heal every time you roll away or give him space. No bash or attack works so you need to be close enough to GB to punish the heal.

Knight_Raime
04-15-2019, 09:38 AM
try to test it again. I cannot come to that conclusion after checking up on it myself ... but at least I granted you the benefit of the doubt ;-)

If you're on console it's basically impossible unless you can make godly reads. On pc it's perfectly doable if you have good reaction time. I personally can't consistently do it. But I have done it. I'm more or less relaying info from the best players in the game.


Sorry for the late reply, but i want to explain why BP is weaker than you think.

Unless BP is at the closest possible distance, he needs to delay his bash. The nonexistent range and tracking of his SB allows you to avoid almost all of the delayed SB timings with an early backdodge (keep walking back to avoid even later bashes), then counter with a GB. You can roll away against forward dash into zone on reaction (you can recover your stamina before BP can get closer), and counter GB against his forward dash into GB on reaction.

If BP can throw his SB without delaying, it is your fault for turtling at that distance. Most heroes with a viable offence can initiate their unreactable mixups from a longer range.

It is basically a nerfed version of Warden's SB. Warden can feint into GB anytime but BP needs to finish his forward dash to GB. Warden's early dodge counter mixup (fully charged bash and feint into valiant breakthrough) can not be avoided on reaction, but BP's early dodge counter mixup (zone, GB and forward dash heavy) can be avoided on reaction. When you expect a delayed SB from Warden but he uses uncharged SB, you take guaranteed damage. But when BP uses his bash earlier than you guess, you can still dodge it on reaction to avoid damage. A backdodge counters a lot of bash timings against BP, but Warden's SB has a much smaller dodge timing.

Yes, you can roll away from zone if you dodge early and convert into roll on orange. No, that's not consistently possible for most players. It's already known that BP can't do anything to people who roll his offense. That doesn't mean anything because you're not punishing him. And in 4's rolling his offense is a bad idea anyway because any chip damage you manage to do to him he can just back away and heal. Which good luck trying to punish because if you've rolled you can't close the gap quick enough for a GB and he'll just bullwark counter any attack you attempt.

Again, it's already known how easy it is for you to avoid his bash. It's punishing it that you can't do. Because he's incredibly safe it bolsters his semi bad offense. You're information while maybe helpful for some doesn't counter the points of BP being insanely good.