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Goat_of_Vermund
04-03-2019, 08:28 AM
After playing him a bit as well as reading some topics about him and fighting him, I think I have some ideas to balance him out.

1. Increase the recovery of light-bash if missed. Every dodge attack should be guaranteed on a succesful dodge, as well as guarbreaks on an instant preventive dodge. Same for forward bash.
2. Let his heavy finishers to be softfeinted into his shieldbash. Let his Bulwark Strike softfeinted into a shieldbash.
3. Make the heavy finishers 40 damage again.

Sweaty_Sock
04-03-2019, 03:13 PM
OR just speed his zone up slightly so its of use - i.e. you feint bulwark into zone into finisher etc. Its to slow to have any sort of reliability

Also nerf light after bash finisher to 15, buff light after softfeint from heavy back to 20

Siegfried-Z
04-03-2019, 03:37 PM
Guys, the only buff BP should get is on his foward dodge heavy.

No Dmg buff, no softfeint, no speed increased.

Sweaty_Sock
04-03-2019, 03:43 PM
Guys, the only buff BP should get is on his foward dodge heavy.

No Dmg buff, no softfeint, no speed increased.

I'm asking for nerf to light off bash and more damage on light on softeint heavy (the easier to dodge one). Don't hate on a character because of its launch

Zone is stumpy armed and slow on a charcter with a very bare bones tool kit, just to add some variety

Star.Princess
04-03-2019, 04:08 PM
Just make recovery after bash like Conq's so that bash from neutral and bash after light will be punishable, maybe even make zone 100ms vulnerability to gb and reduce recovery on heavy soft-feint to bash.

Star.Princess
04-03-2019, 04:21 PM
I'm asking for nerf to light off bash and more damage on light on softeint heavy (the easier to dodge one). Don't hate on a character because of its launch

Zone is stumpy armed and slow on a charcter with a very bare bones tool kit, just to add some variety

Lol, cybersportsmens put Prior in #1 S-Tier only because they hate new character, not because he is OP.

Siegfried-Z
04-03-2019, 04:33 PM
I'm asking for nerf to light off bash and more damage on light on softeint heavy (the easier to dodge one). Don't hate on a character because of its launch

Zone is stumpy armed and slow on a charcter with a very bare bones tool kit, just to add some variety

I dont "hate" prior. I just try to be objective.
His zone is fine. It is a Bash zone, a thing for what Glad one use to be famous.
His zone can allow prior to catch people dodging on the SB timing.
And this is a very good option select tool.

EvoX.
04-03-2019, 08:38 PM
Lol, cybersportsmens put Prior in #1 S-Tier only because they hate new character, not because he is OP.

He's top 1 S-tier because he's the strongest hero in the game, annoyingly so. He's still too good, too easy to use, requires close to no skill to play correctly and win, which I'm aware is very popular concept for a lot of people, however, it's toxic as a whole. He needs actual tone downs, serious ones I'd say.

Star.Princess
04-03-2019, 09:41 PM
He's top 1 S-tier because he's the strongest hero in the game, annoyingly so. He's still too good, too easy to use, requires close to no skill to play correctly and win, which I'm aware is very popular concept for a lot of people, however, it's toxic as a whole. He needs actual tone downs, serious ones I'd say.

Why are you telling me this, I do not understand? Read the comment to which I replied.

EvoX.
04-03-2019, 10:15 PM
Why are you telling me this, I do not understand? Read the comment to which I replied.

I did, and I don't even know how your reply has anything to do with his post, but either way my point is that Prior is rightfully top 1 S-tier, not just because someone hates a new character.

Goat_of_Vermund
04-03-2019, 10:26 PM
Berserker is probably stronger than Black Prior right now, and I doubt a conqueror couldn't easily take down even the prenerf prior. Warden is probably stronger too. I don't doubt he is S tier, but saying he is the strongest is false.

I think the only remaining unfair thing he has is the totally unpunishable bash after the light, every character with some counter to it is instantly stronger than Black Prior, since most of his kit is not S tier, but A or B tier. The heavy into bash is a very poor design for example, very slow, very telegraphed and always grants a guardbreak on dodge.

Siegfried-Z
04-03-2019, 10:58 PM
I did, and I don't even know how your reply has anything to do with his post, but either way my point is that Prior is rightfully top 1 S-tier, not just because someone hates a new character.

You and Lekret are saying the same thing ;)
His post was kind of ironic flr Sweaty scock saying to not hate BP because of his lunch state.


Berserker is probably stronger than Black Prior right now, and I doubt a conqueror couldn't easily take down even the prenerf prior. Warden is probably stronger too. I don't doubt he is S tier, but saying he is the strongest is false.

I think the only remaining unfair thing he has is the totally unpunishable bash after the light, every character with some counter to it is instantly stronger than Black Prior, since most of his kit is not S tier, but A or B tier. The heavy into bash is a very poor design for example, very slow, very telegraphed and always grants a guardbreak on dodge.

It is true that a heroe capable of punishing his sb is a fair matchup against bp.
But as you said not a lot of heroes can do so atm

Knight_Raime
04-03-2019, 11:28 PM
Guys, the only buff BP should get is on his foward dodge heavy.

No Dmg buff, no softfeint, no speed increased.

Going to disagree. The nerfs he needs (recovery increase on whiffed forward bash, removal of instant guard on dodge) a long with the nerf he got to going into FB showcase his kits issues.

IMO buff wise:

~Forward dodge heavy gets better tracking/range.
~Superior block unblockables get a damage increase.
~Soft feint bash gets slightly better tracking and less recovery.
~Zone gets a slight vulnerability decrease.
~Heavy from FB gets a slight vulnerability decrease.
~Bash soft feint can come from heavy finisher.

Damage buff to his superior unblockables is needed to make up for his overall weaker confirmed damage (now) and the fact that the risk isn't worth using them atm.
Tracking on dodge heavy is to deal with people who just roll his mix up constantly.
Soft feint bash adjustments are important because it's a mix up that can't be used due to how easy it is to read and punish.
Decreasing zone and UB heavies vulnerability is to help keep his mix up intact since the nerfs have removed much of his strong defense. Hence the compensation for offense.
Bash soft feint being accessed from more areas means that is another mix up he has access to. Which is important when his offense is so basic.

I'm unsure if I want a distance buff to either his neutral or bash after light. but tracking on both might need a slight buff after it's recovery is nerfed. He's a very delicate hero to balance. You can't blanket nerf him without compensation. It was "okay" for his offense to be a bit vulnerable because he was very good at being able to defend himself. But because we're making him easier to punish his offense is going to need to be brought up so he's not hurled into mid tier. And it's not like these nerfs are prediction nerfs. His bash recovery was supposed to be nerfed along side the recovery increase to leaving FB. And we already were told that instant guard on dodge was going to be removed universally.

Siegfried-Z
04-04-2019, 02:19 AM
Going to disagree. The nerfs he needs (recovery increase on whiffed forward bash, removal of instant guard on dodge) a long with the nerf he got to going into FB showcase his kits issues.

IMO buff wise:

~Forward dodge heavy gets better tracking/range.
~Superior block unblockables get a damage increase.
~Soft feint bash gets slightly better tracking and less recovery.
~Zone gets a slight vulnerability decrease.
~Heavy from FB gets a slight vulnerability decrease.
~Bash soft feint can come from heavy finisher.

Damage buff to his superior unblockables is needed to make up for his overall weaker confirmed damage (now) and the fact that the risk isn't worth using them atm.
Tracking on dodge heavy is to deal with people who just roll his mix up constantly.
Soft feint bash adjustments are important because it's a mix up that can't be used due to how easy it is to read and punish.
Decreasing zone and UB heavies vulnerability is to help keep his mix up intact since the nerfs have removed much of his strong defense. Hence the compensation for offense.
Bash soft feint being accessed from more areas means that is another mix up he has access to. Which is important when his offense is so basic.

I'm unsure if I want a distance buff to either his neutral or bash after light. but tracking on both might need a slight buff after it's recovery is nerfed. He's a very delicate hero to balance. You can't blanket nerf him without compensation. It was "okay" for his offense to be a bit vulnerable because he was very good at being able to defend himself. But because we're making him easier to punish his offense is going to need to be brought up so he's not hurled into mid tier. And it's not like these nerfs are prediction nerfs. His bash recovery was supposed to be nerfed along side the recovery increase to leaving FB. And we already were told that instant guard on dodge was going to be removed universally.

I would say fair enough for a CC dmg buff and why not for his sb softfeint improvment on the opener.
But these things, plus a foward Dodge buff should only happen if one day BP has a real recovery.

I disagree with the vulnerability reduction on his zone and UB.
His zone is a strong tool to deny some mix up and at catching people dodging on the sb timing.
His UB can come at any moment in his combo because of his recovery cancel into Bullwark.
So he can just infinite chain with full block/Ub mix up.
In both case their vulnerability is a fair downside.

But the point which would be a real balancing issue is to give him another way to bash. He already has so many ways to do it.
Plus, a bash mix up on an undodgeable heavy would be extremly op as it would be an absolut gess to defend against it.
And he would have 2 bash opportunity in a simple Light - Heavy combo. Not a good idea Imo.

Zombie.Face
04-04-2019, 03:38 AM
he seems fine or needs a buff currently, not needing a nerf at all.

Star.Princess
04-04-2019, 02:23 PM
he seems fine or needs a buff currently, not needing a nerf at all.

He need nerf, not he is very strong, S-Tier #1 hero, unpunishable iniciation which work on every skill levels, there are nerds with 150ms reaction with 144hz monitors who can fully counter iniciation of Conq and WL, but even they can't deal with Prior thanks to unblockable, just watch how BarakYEET played against Adamidak (on Raider), very safe baits from neutral which are uncounterable by reaction.

LionsFang78
04-04-2019, 04:23 PM
I have to agree with Raime here. There's no way BP is S tier in his current state, and thanks to the mid season patch all of the data we get for him next season isn't going to reflect His current state. He's viable, but the best hero in the game? That's hard to believe.

He's too simple and is lacking in terms of mixups. Tenebris rising should be punishable via GB if dodged, but his offense needs to be buffed to compensate. I love the idea of him being able to soft feint into a bash with heavy finishers, he needs options like this to make him interesting and viable should his standard bash be nerfed.

I also like the idea of reducing GB vulnerability not just on his zone, but on bulwark slash as well. Bulwark stance should have risks involved, but it's too risky as it is. With the longer recovery it takes to exit the stance and literally every option from it having so much GB vulnerability, the risk is hardly worth the allblock or trying for a Bulwark counter.

BP should either be able to exit the stance a tad faster, or bulwark slash should be safer. I also believe that the recovery time on a whiffed bulwark counter should be longer, as nobody seems to be able to punish me when I whiff it.

Giving his dodge heavies extra tracking would be nice as well. Perhaps it could be made to catch rolls, or to hit people that try to predict his bash. The trade-off here is that it's still easy to parry on prediction. Whatever gets done, this move needs to be given an actual purpose.

His damage numbers are fine, no need for tweaks there.

EvoX.
04-04-2019, 05:20 PM
There's no way BP is S tier in his current state, and thanks to the mid season patch all of the data we get for him next season isn't going to reflect His current state. He's viable, but the best hero in the game? That's hard to believe.

He is, though, at least when talking about Duels and Brawls. There is nobody better than him, he's strong across all levels, from the lowest to the most competitive. I'm sure it's difficult to accept you're maining the strongest hero in the game, but you are.

Goat_of_Vermund
04-04-2019, 06:10 PM
He is, though, at least when talking about Duels and Brawls. There is nobody better than him, he's strong across all levels, from the lowest to the most competitive. I'm sure it's difficult to accept you're maining the strongest hero in the game, but you are.

Heroes better than him: Warden, Conqueror, Berserker, Shinobi. I also think Nobushi and Highlander can be placed on an equal level with him.

And if you just nerf him, he will be useless. It can clearly be seen how useless he is if you match him against a raider, one of the weakest duelists in the game. Since he has the dodge guardbreak to punish his bashes, Black Prior is left with basically nothing, and the fight will be about who turtles better since neither parties has viable offense.

Johnaswell
04-04-2019, 07:58 PM
After playing him a bit as well as reading some topics about him and fighting him, I think I have some ideas to balance him out.

1. Increase the recovery of light-bash if missed. Every dodge attack should be guaranteed on a succesful dodge, as well as guarbreaks on an instant preventive dodge. Same for forward bash.
2. Let his heavy finishers to be softfeinted into his shieldbash. Let his Bulwark Strike softfeinted into a shieldbash.
3. Make the heavy finishers 40 damage again.

1 Increase the recovery of light-bash if missed. Every dodge attack should be guaranteed on a succesful dodge, as well

im not agree with its be black prior useless Shield Bash

2. Let his heavy finishers to be softfeinted into his shieldbash. Let his Bulwark Strike softfeinted into a shieldbash.

im not agree with its think about conqerior its only make conqerior dead heroes

3. Make the heavy finishers 40 damage again

im not agree with its warlord have slow heavy attack do 40 damage but black prior have fast heavy attack than warlord im not agree with its

Ubiflowessence
04-04-2019, 08:03 PM
Thanks for sharing this suggestion OP! Right now, I know the team is looking into BP's shield bash and such. I've seen mixed feedback around the community on how strong Black Prior really is. How do you think BP fairs overall to some of your favorite warriors and mains?

Knight_Raime
04-04-2019, 08:31 PM
I would say fair enough for a CC dmg buff and why not for his sb softfeint improvment on the opener.
But these things, plus a foward Dodge buff should only happen if one day BP has a real recovery.

I disagree with the vulnerability reduction on his zone and UB.
His zone is a strong tool to deny some mix up and at catching people dodging on the sb timing.
His UB can come at any moment in his combo because of his recovery cancel into Bullwark.
So he can just infinite chain with full block/Ub mix up.
In both case their vulnerability is a fair downside.

But the point which would be a real balancing issue is to give him another way to bash. He already has so many ways to do it.
Plus, a bash mix up on an undodgeable heavy would be extremly op as it would be an absolut gess to defend against it.
And he would have 2 bash opportunity in a simple Light - Heavy combo. Not a good idea Imo.

I know what his zone is good for. People are forced to deal with it because they can't do anything about his bash. Once his bash's recovery is properly nerfed handling the zone will be easier to do. You already can't throw out his zone very often because of how slow it is. That's why the better mix up is always unblockable heavy or undodgable heavy. The vulnerability decrease on his UB heavy is to make it a viable thing to throw out as a defense.

Because they nerfed his exit time for FB (which was needed) going into FB is even more risky now. You can't use your UB heavy to try to stop someone's offense on you on tight timing due to it's vulnerability. And I believe UB heavy was meant to be a defense tool to fend of GB attempts. I get what you're saying but I still disagree. Because the speed of the unblockable heavy is already the major balancing factor for his psudeo infinite.

Basically what i'm getting at is due to slower speeds of both his zone and his UB heavy his potential offense is a bit clunky. BP currently remains S tier specifically because his only other main offensive tool (bash) is still very safe to use. Once that changes his offense is going to plummet. Maybe there is a better way to fix his UB heavy. Like making it faster or giving it a soft feint of it's own. But something needs to be done about it. As for zone. I suppose it "might" be fine post nerfs if his normal bash also got a tracking increase. Because then at least it would be a bit harder to avoid variable timings on said bash whilst avoiding his zone. But i'd still rather the zone just be less GB vulnerable. It's already not a great option select tool like most other zones.

I ask for another way to access his soft feint bash because currently I don't see the point in using it. Raw heavy from neutral doesn't really add anything mix up wise. It's very obvious that you're going to go for it when you do throw it out because of that. I disagree about it being OP. The bash as is already has significant start up time. And my buffs don't change that. Only make it slightly more consistent and slightly less punishable. Would you accept the soft feint bash coming from his UB heavy instead of the heavy finisher?

The_B0G_
04-05-2019, 12:47 AM
If he were to get his soft feint from the UB heavy, what would he be giving up?

I still feel like he is too strong, personally. His FB already counters everything besides a GB, I don't think he needs any buffs.

Goat_of_Vermund
04-05-2019, 12:54 AM
He would get a bash nerf while getting the Bulwark Strike buff as compensation.

The_B0G_
04-05-2019, 01:21 AM
I'm not sure about this type of buff, he can heal from FB, so he could dodge back, go into FB, heal and force you to engage as fast as possible, but you can't use any attack or bash at all so he knows you'll run up for a GB, then he can rip an UB and then soft feint into a bash and get a free light with a very fast follow up light, then he could do it again.

If you read it correctly you still barely get any damage off of him, while he can chip away and also heal.

In duels this wouldn't be such an issue because you can't unlock perks and if read correctly you could chip him down but in 4v4 modes I feel like it would be pretty OP, hard to chip someone down when they keep healing.

Does that sound like it could be a problem to you guys? I feel like one of the only vulnerabilities of his FB is his slow UB.

LionsFang78
04-06-2019, 03:09 PM
Please quote my entire post if you're going to attempt to rebuttal what I've said. BP is strong because his bash is unpunishable for a majority of the cast. That's honestly it. Know what happens when he goes up against a character that CAN punish his bash? That opponent instantly becomes a hard counter to BP. Raider, a character who is almost bottom of the bin in terms of duels, is a hard counter to BP, the supposed "strongest hero in the game." Zerker is still most definitely the strongest hero in the game, he's S tier with no bad matchups.

Balancing BP is a delicate process right now. Nerf his bash (which I said I'm in favor for in my post) and he'll need to be given something else to compensate, lest be becomes unviable. Don't jump to conclusions and assume that I main the guy and want him to be S+ tier, because I really don't.

Siegfried-Z
04-07-2019, 12:05 AM
I know what his zone is good for. People are forced to deal with it because they can't do anything about his bash. Once his bash's recovery is properly nerfed handling the zone will be easier to do. You already can't throw out his zone very often because of how slow it is. That's why the better mix up is always unblockable heavy or undodgable heavy. The vulnerability decrease on his UB heavy is to make it a viable thing to throw out as a defense.

Because they nerfed his exit time for FB (which was needed) going into FB is even more risky now. You can't use your UB heavy to try to stop someone's offense on you on tight timing due to it's vulnerability. And I believe UB heavy was meant to be a defense tool to fend of GB attempts. I get what you're saying but I still disagree. Because the speed of the unblockable heavy is already the major balancing factor for his psudeo infinite.

Basically what i'm getting at is due to slower speeds of both his zone and his UB heavy his potential offense is a bit clunky. BP currently remains S tier specifically because his only other main offensive tool (bash) is still very safe to use. Once that changes his offense is going to plummet. Maybe there is a better way to fix his UB heavy. Like making it faster or giving it a soft feint of it's own. But something needs to be done about it. As for zone. I suppose it "might" be fine post nerfs if his normal bash also got a tracking increase. Because then at least it would be a bit harder to avoid variable timings on said bash whilst avoiding his zone. But i'd still rather the zone just be less GB vulnerable. It's already not a great option select tool like most other zones.

I ask for another way to access his soft feint bash because currently I don't see the point in using it. Raw heavy from neutral doesn't really add anything mix up wise. It's very obvious that you're going to go for it when you do throw it out because of that. I disagree about it being OP. The bash as is already has significant start up time. And my buffs don't change that. Only make it slightly more consistent and slightly less punishable. Would you accept the soft feint bash coming from his UB heavy instead of the heavy finisher?

I get your point too but to me, a new sf into sb would be too strong.
And too annoying. BP is already the most bashy heroe of the game and players dont want more of them.

His current sf isnt very effective of course, i see it as a very situational moove as people often dont expect it because almost no BP use it.

At the end BP is design as a very safe heroe because of his unpunishable bash game and his bullwark countering eveything except GB and healing him. This last point is not discussed enough. The fact he can back up and heal is a very strong pressure tool for BP as his opponent has to do something and take risk.

To me the only balancing i see as mandatory for him are :
-sb recovery increase
-dodge heavy range/tracking buff

On the other points (Bullwark, zone, UB), they are all strong enough tools to have a fair downside.

Imo a good balancing is a viable heroe but with some weaknesses. Like gb vulnerability on some mooves for bp (which is not a big deal 4v4 speaking at least).
If we make all heroes perfect then we will end with only s tier heroes.
I would prefer A tier as a common target (Shaolin, Shaman etc).

But yeah, BP is definitly a tricky one to balance.

Knight_Raime
04-07-2019, 01:00 PM
I get your point too but to me, a new sf into sb would be too strong.
And too annoying. BP is already the most bashy heroe of the game and players dont want more of them.

His current sf isnt very effective of course, i see it as a very situational moove as people often dont expect it because almost no BP use it.

At the end BP is design as a very safe heroe because of his unpunishable bash game and his bullwark countering eveything except GB and healing him. This last point is not discussed enough. The fact he can back up and heal is a very strong pressure tool for BP as his opponent has to do something and take risk.

To me the only balancing i see as mandatory for him are :
-sb recovery increase
-dodge heavy range/tracking buff

On the other points (Bullwark, zone, UB), they are all strong enough tools to have a fair downside.

Imo a good balancing is a viable heroe but with some weaknesses. Like gb vulnerability on some mooves for bp (which is not a big deal 4v4 speaking at least).
If we make all heroes perfect then we will end with only s tier heroes.
I would prefer A tier as a common target (Shaolin, Shaman etc).

But yeah, BP is definitly a tricky one to balance.

The problem is that if all of his tools on their own have a hefty downside when you sum the whole kit up it shows the kit having many holes in it. BP's S tier because he's safe. And as i've already tried to mention practically everything that makes him safe is going to go away. Buffing his dodge heavy is going to be nice. But it's not going to make up for everything else. It would primarily be used as a way to deal with someone who rolls. But the need to do so will go out the door once his SB becomes more punishable.

If you're dead set on not bringing up the rest of his tools to make up for losing his key element (SB) then it will become mandatory to give his bash the same kind of aggressive tracking that Conq's dodge bash has on both his dash bash and his combo bash. If you weren't aware Raider is currently 1 of the maybe 2 hard match ups for BP. and it's because he can consistently punish BP's bash. And it's a hard punish because it's a GB.

Now we don't know if everyone will be able to dodge GB on tight timing or on read when his bash recovery is nerfed. But worst case scenario it'll be possible on tight timing. Which means BP will plummet in viability. Maybe not every single one of my suggested buffs needs to happen. But he'll certainly need more than what you want to give him.

Siegfried-Z
04-07-2019, 04:40 PM
The problem is that if all of his tools on their own have a hefty downside when you sum the whole kit up it shows the kit having many holes in it. BP's S tier because he's safe. And as i've already tried to mention practically everything that makes him safe is going to go away. Buffing his dodge heavy is going to be nice. But it's not going to make up for everything else. It would primarily be used as a way to deal with someone who rolls. But the need to do so will go out the door once his SB becomes more punishable.

If you're dead set on not bringing up the rest of his tools to make up for losing his key element (SB) then it will become mandatory to give his bash the same kind of aggressive tracking that Conq's dodge bash has on both his dash bash and his combo bash. If you weren't aware Raider is currently 1 of the maybe 2 hard match ups for BP. and it's because he can consistently punish BP's bash. And it's a hard punish because it's a GB.

Now we don't know if everyone will be able to dodge GB on tight timing or on read when his bash recovery is nerfed. But worst case scenario it'll be possible on tight timing. Which means BP will plummet in viability. Maybe not every single one of my suggested buffs needs to happen. But he'll certainly need more than what you want to give him.

If his recovery is nerf at the point almost every heroes would be able to Dodge GB him, then yes he would need more than a Dodge heavy buff.

But, maybe i've miss simething and you can give me an answer but did the devs confirmed they are going to increase (for Real this time) BP recovery ? And then when ?
As for his sb tracking is still impossible to Dodge after a light. It often happen to me to Dodge it but my char doesnt moove and the sb hit me. I dont know when this is going to be fix as well.

Then, if one day bp SB has no bug and a real recovery, i would be open minded for more than a Dodge heavy buff.
Like a CC buff, sf sb buff and so on.
But i dont like the idea to give him another way to bash anyway. 4 ways of bashing is enough Imo.

Sweaty_Sock
04-08-2019, 09:18 AM
If his recovery is nerf at the point almost every heroes would be able to Dodge GB him, then yes he would need more than a Dodge heavy buff.

But, maybe i've miss simething and you can give me an answer but did the devs confirmed they are going to increase (for Real this time) BP recovery ? And then when ?
As for his sb tracking is still impossible to Dodge after a light. It often happen to me to Dodge it but my char doesnt moove and the sb hit me. I dont know when this is going to be fix as well.

Then, if one day bp SB has no bug and a real recovery, i would be open minded for more than a Dodge heavy buff.
Like a CC buff, sf sb buff and so on.
But i dont like the idea to give him another way to bash anyway. 4 ways of bashing is enough Imo.

Try play him without using dash bash & you start to feel the holes in his kit. That move too powerful, but he needs the rest brought up if you want to rip it away

Knight_Raime
04-08-2019, 10:13 PM
If his recovery is nerf at the point almost every heroes would be able to Dodge GB him, then yes he would need more than a Dodge heavy buff.

But, maybe i've miss simething and you can give me an answer but did the devs confirmed they are going to increase (for Real this time) BP recovery ? And then when ?
As for his sb tracking is still impossible to Dodge after a light. It often happen to me to Dodge it but my char doesnt moove and the sb hit me. I dont know when this is going to be fix as well.

Then, if one day bp SB has no bug and a real recovery, i would be open minded for more than a Dodge heavy buff.
Like a CC buff, sf sb buff and so on.
But i dont like the idea to give him another way to bash anyway. 4 ways of bashing is enough Imo.

His recovery on the bash was meant to be nerfed with the last patch. They've not acknowledged that it hasn't happened AFAIK.
That's likely due to the guard switch delay being fixed in S10. or are you referring to blocking his light while he's in revenge and being hit by the SB still?

My problem with waiting and seeing what he's like after he loses his safety is that it could be months before the devs even look at him again.

Siegfried-Z
04-09-2019, 07:32 AM
Try play him without using dash bash & you start to feel the holes in his kit. That move too powerful, but he needs the rest brought up if you want to rip it away

I am not saying the opposite.
We are discussing at how brought up the rest if they really reduce his recovery one day.


His recovery on the bash was meant to be nerfed with the last patch. They've not acknowledged that it hasn't happened AFAIK.
That's likely due to the guard switch delay being fixed in S10. or are you referring to blocking his light while he's in revenge and being hit by the SB still?

My problem with waiting and seeing what he's like after he loses his safety is that it could be months before the devs even look at him again.

Yes saddly they fail at nerfing his recovery. Maybe they have plan to do it again (for real) later but i am not aware about that.

I was speaking about the guard fix delay yes. Atm it is very frustrating to not being able to Dodge sometimes while you saw it coming.

Maybe a good solution would be to give him some of the discussed buff when they nerf his recovery. Not all of them but some and if it feels it is not enough then another slight buff later.

Knight_Raime
04-09-2019, 12:18 PM
I am not saying the opposite.
We are discussing at how brought up the rest if they really reduce his recovery one day.



Yes saddly they fail at nerfing his recovery. Maybe they have plan to do it again (for real) later but i am not aware about that.

I was speaking about the guard fix delay yes. Atm it is very frustrating to not being able to Dodge sometimes while you saw it coming.

Maybe a good solution would be to give him some of the discussed buff when they nerf his recovery. Not all of them but some and if it feels it is not enough then another slight buff later.

As far as i'm aware the devs haven't openly acknowledged that the recovery nerf didn't go through. So it's up in the air on whenever that will be addressed. And okay, thanks for clarifying. I believe that the issue about being unable to dodge his SB follow up from light will be fixed with them fixing everyone's guard switch delay to be 100ms.

All I can theorize with certainty at this point is that if his bash does get nerfed on recovery wise Black prior will become more of a defensive focused hero than an offensive one. I say this because his SB from neutral is hilariously easy to avoid. But his CC is technically getting buffed with the GS recovery fix. Which will firmly plant him into the defensive style alongside using FB to negate 400ms chip and a lot of recovery cancels into FB to negate chip/whiff punish.

I personally don't want this. I like playing heros who can take offense to the enemy. So in my mind if we're only going with partial buffs to test waters post season 10 patch (and assuming the recovery gets nerfed on SB,) then these are the changes I think would be a must to include first:

~Soft feint bash recovery reduced and given slightly better tracking.
~CC damage's increased.
~Bash from neutral gets a tracking buff. Bash in combo is left alone (if possible.)
~Speed up UB heavy by 100ms or reduce it's recovery by 100ms.
~Dodge heavy becomes undodgable. Gets a slight range increase.

Buffs to soft feint bash make it a viable option in a 1v1 scenario instead of it only being a target swap attack.
CC damage buff is entirely because he's going to rely on it more now that he won't be getting so much confirmable damage with his psudeo combos.
Bash from neutral buff is to compensate for the increased window for avoiding his bash and the fact that it will be much easier to punish dodge into bash/zone mix up.
UB heavy change is to prevent the opponent from always throwing a GB to try and stop his FB usage for mix ups. Since BP will rely more on FB now for safety.
Dodge heavy buff is purely to give him some range. And in the off chance the devs fail to nerf disengage methods good enough with Season 10 like they're planning BP won't be stuck with people rolling his offense yet again.

I can live without giving him more access to his soft feint bash. And I could also live without making his zone a better option select tool. It really would help him. But it would also push him more towards being defensive. Which ultimately I don't want.

Siegfried-Z
04-09-2019, 02:03 PM
As far as i'm aware the devs haven't openly acknowledged that the recovery nerf didn't go through. So it's up in the air on whenever that will be addressed. And okay, thanks for clarifying. I believe that the issue about being unable to dodge his SB follow up from light will be fixed with them fixing everyone's guard switch delay to be 100ms.

All I can theorize with certainty at this point is that if his bash does get nerfed on recovery wise Black prior will become more of a defensive focused hero than an offensive one. I say this because his SB from neutral is hilariously easy to avoid. But his CC is technically getting buffed with the GS recovery fix. Which will firmly plant him into the defensive style alongside using FB to negate 400ms chip and a lot of recovery cancels into FB to negate chip/whiff punish.

I personally don't want this. I like playing heros who can take offense to the enemy. So in my mind if we're only going with partial buffs to test waters post season 10 patch (and assuming the recovery gets nerfed on SB,) then these are the changes I think would be a must to include first:

~Soft feint bash recovery reduced and given slightly better tracking.
~CC damage's increased.
~Bash from neutral gets a tracking buff. Bash in combo is left alone (if possible.)
~Speed up UB heavy by 100ms or reduce it's recovery by 100ms.
~Dodge heavy becomes undodgable. Gets a slight range increase.

Buffs to soft feint bash make it a viable option in a 1v1 scenario instead of it only being a target swap attack.
CC damage buff is entirely because he's going to rely on it more now that he won't be getting so much confirmable damage with his psudeo combos.
Bash from neutral buff is to compensate for the increased window for avoiding his bash and the fact that it will be much easier to punish dodge into bash/zone mix up.
UB heavy change is to prevent the opponent from always throwing a GB to try and stop his FB usage for mix ups. Since BP will rely more on FB now for safety.
Dodge heavy buff is purely to give him some range. And in the off chance the devs fail to nerf disengage methods good enough with Season 10 like they're planning BP won't be stuck with people rolling his offense yet again.

I can live without giving him more access to his soft feint bash. And I could also live without making his zone a better option select tool. It really would help him. But it would also push him more towards being defensive. Which ultimately I don't want.

All i can wish now is that a mod here really bring these last exhanges to the table of the devs.

I think it is a smart sum of how things could be done for BP.

I agree and like the proposal of your last answer. It would be a good balancing job.