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LEXX_Luthor
12-08-2004, 06:36 PM
Some interesting posts in 177 thread, but post here so I (and others) can read without scrolling cos of oversize pics.

Ruy Horta:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Not completely, although its easy to say with 20/20 hindsight. According to Heinkel himself the project wasn't only hampered by RLM demands but also by the chief designer.

The Luftwaffe knew it could not fight the western allies on an equal basis, it could not fight a land war on the scale it was committed to AND a strategic air campaign on the scale needed, not even adding the naval campaign.

An early answer to this question was the dive bomber. It replaced the masses needed for the effective knock out of a point target (be that a factory, bridge or whatever) with improved accuracy. Also the He 177 would not have attacked at the same angles as a Ju 87. With hind sight we may argue that the RLM should at least have run a back up program, as proposed by Heinkel, an orthodox four engine version of the same basic design (similar to the AVRO Manchester and later Lancaster designs).

Later the issue of numbers vs accuracy was somewhat solved by precision guided weapons like the Fritz-X bomb and Hs 293 guided missiles.

When looking at German decision making you must look at all the variables. The Germans did not have the same options as the Brits or Americans and thus could not dedicate as much of their economy to creating a (now orthodox) strategic heavy bomber force.

But those who study the Luftwaffe at length will learn that they certainly understood the theory and possible need for such a force (like they tried to implement against Russia in 1943 - too little and far too late). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LEXX_Luthor
12-08-2004, 06:36 PM
Some interesting posts in 177 thread, but post here so I (and others) can read without scrolling cos of oversize pics.

Ruy Horta:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Not completely, although its easy to say with 20/20 hindsight. According to Heinkel himself the project wasn't only hampered by RLM demands but also by the chief designer.

The Luftwaffe knew it could not fight the western allies on an equal basis, it could not fight a land war on the scale it was committed to AND a strategic air campaign on the scale needed, not even adding the naval campaign.

An early answer to this question was the dive bomber. It replaced the masses needed for the effective knock out of a point target (be that a factory, bridge or whatever) with improved accuracy. Also the He 177 would not have attacked at the same angles as a Ju 87. With hind sight we may argue that the RLM should at least have run a back up program, as proposed by Heinkel, an orthodox four engine version of the same basic design (similar to the AVRO Manchester and later Lancaster designs).

Later the issue of numbers vs accuracy was somewhat solved by precision guided weapons like the Fritz-X bomb and Hs 293 guided missiles.

When looking at German decision making you must look at all the variables. The Germans did not have the same options as the Brits or Americans and thus could not dedicate as much of their economy to creating a (now orthodox) strategic heavy bomber force.

But those who study the Luftwaffe at length will learn that they certainly understood the theory and possible need for such a force (like they tried to implement against Russia in 1943 - too little and far too late). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LEXX_Luthor
12-08-2004, 06:37 PM
JR_Greenhorn:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Great work PigLove!
You've drummed up some interest in the plane with your thread and photos. You've discovered that no one here yet has any argument to seeing this plane in game (it's tougher to get a plane in if you have folks fighting it every step of the way--just ask gibbage about his P-80).

The next step to getting the plane in game is to find as many modelling references as you can. Good, detailed shots will be needed of all external areas of the aircraft, and plans or blueprints are a big help. If you hope for it to be flyable, you'll need to find detailed photos of each crew position, including all gunners. Finally, you'll need to find flight performance data to send with the model to Oleg if a model does get completed.

That's all stuff you can do on your own. The hard part is finding a modeller that would be willing to put the work into such a plane. It can be done, but it needs to be done soon. I'm not sure how long they will be taking 3rd party models for planes, but I think the days are soon numbered. However, ianboys and his team have recently finished two new maps for the Eastern front, including the long-awaited Murmansk map. So there is obviously still a place for new Eastern front content even after PF was released.

I personally would love to see another German bomber in game. May favourite thing to do in game is bomber intercepts, so it's always nice to have more varied choices of targets.
There has been a clamour for more flyable bombers for quite some time too. I'm sure those folks would enjoy any progress you could make with this plane. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LEXX_Luthor
12-08-2004, 06:39 PM
ElektroFredrik:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
IIRC someone has been working on a He-177 for quite some time (look on the modellers forum at Netwings) and last time I saw the model it looked rather complete (but no DM or LODs) But the last time I heard some info on this project was long ago Frown I have no idea what the current status is... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LEXX_Luthor
12-08-2004, 06:39 PM
PigLove:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ~~&gt; http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image1.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PigLove
12-08-2004, 07:22 PM
Thanks LEXX_Luthor

BTW, it's not only German engineers who had problems with coupled engines. The Rolls-Royce company also had a lot of trouble with their Vulture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Vulture) design, which had the same principle.

This is why the British Avro Manchester project was abandoned and replaced by the Lancaster

Rgds

PigLove
12-08-2004, 07:37 PM
(Also, the original thread is here (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=9401084942))

JR_Greenhorn
12-08-2004, 10:41 PM
Thanks, LEXX_Luthor. Stick with thumbnails and links, not big images, right?

PigLove, you seem to have plenty of info about the He 177 on hand. Is the engine coupling an external coupling of two complete engine assemblies, like the Kawasaki Ki-64, or did the two engines share any components, like the shared crankcase of the Allison W-3420 in the Fisher P-75?

PigLove
12-08-2004, 11:16 PM
From what I understand they were two completely separate engines which only connected with each other at the prop gearbox

I've just ordered a book about the plane, so hopefully I'll have a lot more info in a few days

HansKnappstick
12-09-2004, 06:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PigLove:
From what I understand they were two completely separate engines which only connected with each other at the prop gearbox
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes. A copy of that double engine, complete with the gearbox (or should I say clutchbox?) is presented in the Aviation Section of the Deutsches Museum in Oberschleissheim.

SkyPiggies
12-10-2004, 10:38 PM
I don't speak Japanese, but I assume the pictures at this site (http://www.yatsuzaka.com/gallery/MUSEUM/DEUTSCHE5.HTML) are from the DM

This photo (http://www.yatsuzaka.com/gallery/MUSEUM/JPEG/DB610-2.JPG) gives a good view of the engine.

SkyPiggies
12-11-2004, 03:13 AM
More photos here (http://www.luftarchiv.de/motoren/benz.htm), of both the DB605 and DB610

LEXX_Luthor
12-11-2004, 03:57 AM
ewwh sweet pix ~thanks~