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TicioQ
03-22-2019, 08:51 PM
I think is not a big new to say that orochi is totally unviable I’m a 1vs 2 or more players.

Not only that but it’s a danger for all the team as it just fuels revenge.

Another thing I started to noticed is that your team always try to “help” you when your are in a fight.

The problem?! Not being able to do any harm to the enemy, your allies will always claim the kill. It is upsetting that, after being fighting for minutes, another will come and kill your enemy as you have no way to touch him.

Would be a good idea to give orochi (and pacekeeper as far as I know) an unblockable attack? Just to avoid helping the other team.

The kick of the general orochi on the campaign?
What do you think?

atac56
03-22-2019, 09:55 PM
I think is not a big new to say that orochi is totally unviable I’m a 1vs 2 or more players.

Not only that but it’s a danger for all the team as it just fuels revenge.

Another thing I started to noticed is that your team always try to “help” you when your are in a fight.

The problem?! Not being able to do any harm to the enemy, your allies will always claim the kill. It is upsetting that, after being fighting for minutes, another will come and kill your enemy as you have no way to touch him.

Would be a good idea to give orochi (and pacekeeper as far as I know) an unblockable attack? Just to avoid helping the other team.

The kick of the general orochi on the campaign?
What do you think?

i think the orochi sorely needs an unblockable. a real unblockable not a deflect-unblockable. he can't do anything outside of light spam and feed revenge.

Kadete93
03-22-2019, 09:57 PM
i think the orochi sorely needs an unblockable. a real unblockable not a deflect-unblockable. he can't do anything outside of light spam and feed revenge.

But please not a bash!!

Ubiflowessence
03-22-2019, 10:09 PM
i think the orochi sorely needs an unblockable. a real unblockable not a deflect-unblockable. he can't do anything outside of light spam and feed revenge.

In your opinion, what do you think would be the biggest benefit to adding an unblockable to Orochi? Does everyone else agree with adding an unblockable or improving upon his unblockable?

Star.Princess
03-22-2019, 11:29 PM
In your opinion, what do you think would be the biggest benefit to adding an unblockable to Orochi? Does everyone else agree with adding an unblockable or improving upon his unblockable?
Of course everybody agree, unblockable the main thing he need. This is not the only problem, he needs stronger chains with more 400ms with decent damage (I am not joking, why he can't have two 400ms chain lights like Nuxia? Or 15dmg 400ms like Zerker), because now he is mediocre in duel and there's no other way, bashes or 400ms lights, lights aren't annoying so much, but the main problem is low efficiency in teamfights, 40dmg heavy finisher on each side will be very good, with his feasts and teamfight mobility he will bedecent teamfighter and damager.

I-Nibbiru-I
03-22-2019, 11:35 PM
He's definietly in a tricky position, a new type of move, a bash or and unblockable attack would definietly add a lot of mixup potentional into his kit.

Some number adjustments would also go a long way, for example his dodge attacks (Zephyr Slash and Lightning Strike) deal the exact same damage that his attacks from Storm Rush stance do that is 17, only difference being that the Storm Rush attacks are basically heavy attacks, that deal chip damage and can promt executions. While his riptide strike is also a light dodge attack and it deals 22 damage if it lands and I find that pretty ridiculous in my oppinion.

Storm Rush attacks should deal 22 damage while Riptide should deal 17 like his other light dodge attacks do and it should also function as a chain starter even if whiffed not just when it lands.
Also the addition of the old Riptide Strike would be welcome as well.

In any case I think the Storm Rush stance is a pretty good foundation for future moves and pressure tools.
His soft-feint from Storm Rush into Guardbreak should be brought back, along with the addition of more soft-feints.
Couple of examples:

-Soft-feint mid Rush into Zephyr Slash (side dodge attacks) - pretty self explanatory I believe, Lightning Strike (Forward dodge attack) needs to go in my oppinion and should be replaced with a chase attack like Warden got with his Valiant Breaktrough.

-Soft-feint mid Rush into Riptide Strike - pretty obvious as well, could be performed on read or in reaction of incoming attempts trying to poke you out.

-Soft-feint mid Rush into Old Riptide Strike - The Old Riptide Strike which I shall dub Ripping Tide, would recieve hyper armour while performing it both from a Rush and from neutral. It would also be feintable and I'd give it 25 damage.

-Soft-feint mid Rush into another Stormrush Stance - Add the ability to enter Stormrush Stance from side dodges as well, imagine rushing towards your opponents who attempts to poke you out only for them to miss because you not only dodged his poke attempt and entered another Rush Stance already, but you also let go and now are charging towards them ready to deliver that swift last killing blow! It is totally something a skilled and agile Samurai like Orochi, would be able to pull off!

These changes would help bring out and reinforce Orochi's identity, a swift and skilled master of the katana who puts his opponents down before they could even have the time to ask, NANI?!

Siegfried-Z
03-22-2019, 11:45 PM
In your opinion, what do you think would be the biggest benefit to adding an unblockable to Orochi? Does everyone else agree with adding an unblockable or improving upon his unblockable?

Imo Roch would be too strong with an UB.

At the end every char are going to have UB and Ha ? There is no purpose to have différent type of heroes then.

If one day he got something like this, he should not anymore have a top double lights guaranteed and only a double light chain, not a triple.

You cant give him the huge buff of an UB attack without reduce his spam ability. For the health of console.

EvoX.
03-22-2019, 11:53 PM
True, currently you can just external block him without any sort of threat if he's part of a gank. According to Stefan when he addressed the same problem with PK, though, that is OK not likely to change soon.

Sweatier_Sock
03-23-2019, 01:08 AM
After reading through a few orochi threads and commenting on them I put a couple (more) reps through him again to make sure I wasn't shooting form the hip -

I've been convinced he does need an unblockable but not a bash. However, the unblockable comes at a cost

Heavy finishers on chains are unblockable
Middle light in his combo @400ms has its damage reduced to 7. Give him light chain finisher (undodgable) but at 500 ms & 20 damage (same damage values just loaded towards the finisher so that the spam on the way to UB feint won't be to overbearing)

EDIT: also let him softfeint dodge out of heavy UB finisher startup - this would mean you would start seeimg storm rush and the like thrown into combos and a move away from complete light spam

UB is needed as currently no move to force a reaction so if somone wants to just guard you are toast

TicioQ
03-23-2019, 06:56 PM
Please! Just do something, I don’t care what but something!

I just had a tribute game.

In my team, 2 orochis, Pacekeeper and lawbringer.

Vs.

Shaolin, JJ, black prior and nobushi.


It was the fastest Macht in my life. We only fueled their revenge, we never hit them, they always hit us with unbreakable feintings and actual attacks at the same time.

I never got so desperate... not even mad... just disparate.

The_B0G_
03-24-2019, 10:46 AM
I'd rather an unblockable attack getting added than anything to do with adding more 400 ms attacks to him, a good Orochi is already pretty hard to deal with on console, every Orochi I meet is 95% light spam, 5% GBs, most don't even use heavy attacks to feint, it's not needed.

Melikethegames
03-24-2019, 03:04 PM
In your opinion, what do you think would be the biggest benefit to adding an unblockable to Orochi? Does everyone else agree with adding an unblockable or improving upon his unblockable?

RIP warlord no people play warlord his damn low pick rate and low wins rate his need real rework

Inzzane_79
03-25-2019, 08:50 AM
RIP warlord no people play warlord his damn low pick rate and low wins rate his need real rework

Oh shut up!!! This Topic is about Orochi and not Warlord. See, that´s why we call you a Troll

@Topic: Like others said, if Orochi gets an unblockable then other things have to be looked at also to keep him in line. I´m all for giving him an UB

I-Nibbiru-I
03-25-2019, 10:13 AM
RIP warlord no people play warlord his damn low pick rate and low wins rate his need real rework

Hijacking a thread even if just a poor attempt at it is in violation of the forum rules right? Am I in the wrong here?

In any case, I think if Orochi gets an unblockable attack it shouldn't as simple as for example every chain finisher heavy attack.
I was thinking it should in some way come from his Stormrush stance, but I'm not sure in that one.

What I also was thinking is that his light deflect (Wind Gust) Should instead be some sort of top heavy attack move, something like Shaolin has going on with his deflect, it should promt an execution is my point it already deals as much damage as a top heavy attack.
His heavy deflect (Hurricane Blast) should be changed into a throw of some sort like Gladiator has, with or without bleed, it should still have more range than his regular Guardbreak throws.
These changes are just to create more difference between his two deflect moves.

Sweaty_Sock
03-25-2019, 10:49 AM
I'd rather an unblockable attack getting added than anything to do with adding more 400 ms attacks to him, a good Orochi is already pretty hard to deal with on console, every Orochi I meet is 95% light spam, 5% GBs, most don't even use heavy attacks to feint, it's not needed.

My suggestion uses the 400ms as a bridge to other combos rather than a true damage (7 is the same damage as the guaranteed top light). If your on PS4 i'm happy to vs you using only the heavy button?

Inzzane_79
03-26-2019, 08:32 AM
Hijacking a thread even if just a poor attempt at it is in violation of the forum rules right? Am I in the wrong here?

In any case, I think if Orochi gets an unblockable attack it shouldn't as simple as for example every chain finisher heavy attack.
I was thinking it should in some way come from his Stormrush stance, but I'm not sure in that one.

What I also was thinking is that his light deflect (Wind Gust) Should instead be some sort of top heavy attack move, something like Shaolin has going on with his deflect, it should promt an execution is my point it already deals as much damage as a top heavy attack.
His heavy deflect (Hurricane Blast) should be changed into a throw of some sort like Gladiator has, with or without bleed, it should still have more range than his regular Guardbreak throws.
These changes are just to create more difference between his two deflect moves.

Oh I like the idea of a throw with more range as a heavy deflect option! As much as I hate ledging, throwing someone off a cliff with a deflect sounds amazing.

Sweaty_Sock
03-26-2019, 09:25 AM
Oh I like the idea of a throw with more range as a heavy deflect option! As much as I hate ledging, throwing someone off a cliff with a deflect sounds amazing.

Play beserker then

Soldier_of_Dawn
03-26-2019, 01:24 PM
In your opinion, what do you think would be the biggest benefit to adding an unblockable to Orochi? Does everyone else agree with adding an unblockable or improving upon his unblockable?

The greatest benefit:
Giving the Orochi and the Peacekeeper an unblockable means they would no longer have to dramatically change their playstyle to counter turtles. They would retain more control of the fight which would flow a lot better as a result; no more starring contests. This means Orochi and Peacekeeper fights would be quicker which is what both the community and the developers want.

Other points:
In the past, it was said that the developers were reluctant to give unblockables to the Orochi and Peacekeeper because they didn't want to 'shoehorn' them with the same tools as the other heroes. While not giving the Orochi and Peacekeeper an unblockable may make them 'unique' on paper, balance comes at a price since there is no equally viable opener other than Nuxia's exclusive traps. Orochi's 400ms light attacks are the only things that keeps him in the game but they annoying to deal with so he's not very fun to play against for a lot of players, and I'm sure the developers want the heroes to be both fun to play with and against.

As I indicated earlier, giving the Orochi and Peacekeeper an unblockable would not make their playstyles similar to other heroes. It would do the opposite since maintaining control of fight allows them to retain their playstyle instead of abandoning them when facing turtles.

What determines a hero's playstyle is their overall kit and the implementation of their moves which affects both the nature and context of each one. Poor design choices and implementation may have an impact on a hero's style and identity. Take Valkyrie's rework for example. Most of her tools that made her unique were removed and replaced with ones fairly common among other heroes including her bash and 400ms lights. While she is stronger than before her rework, she is not as fun to play with or against. We are still waiting for her next update and I feel the developers have had more than enough time and feedback on her to take action.

Would giving the Orochi and Peacekeeper an unblockable make them less unique? Again, that depends the implementation. There are various types of unblockables including:

Heavy attacks
Melees
Bashes
Grabs/hugs


The contexts of the unblockables include the following:

Neutral attack
Dodge attack
Chain finisher
Soft feint
Cancel option
Parry punish (not ideal in this case)
Unlock tech


Below are some of my previous suggestions for the Orochi's opener:


I have a few brainstorms:



Tozen's kick - the most popular suggestion. Also, make it a cancel option for the following:

Neutral heavies
Chained heavies
Storm Rush
Old Riptide - if it makes a return






Bring back the Old Riptide give the following traits:

unblockable
hard feint
guardbreak cancel
dodge & dodge attack cancels
Tozen's Kick cancel





Convert the forward roll and sword thrust from the Orochi's former minion killing animations into a forward-dodge melee. If the move connects it would immobilise the opponent the same way the Hurricane Blast does. Also, give it the following cancel options:

hard feint
guardbreak cancel
dodge & dodge attack cancels
Tozen's Kick
Old Riptide (if it makes a return)




The move could also be a cancel option for the following:


[*=1]Storm Rush
[*=1]Old Riptide (if it makes a return)
[*=1]Neutral and chained heavies.



12a) Convert the forward roll and sword thrust from the Orochi's former minion killing animations into a forward-dodge melee. The traits of the move would be the following:


Input: Forward Dodge + Heavy Attack
40 damage.
Speed of the roll = 500ms. Speed of the strike after the roll = 700ms.
Stamina cost = 20.
The roll would have the dodge property.
If the move connects it would immobilise the opponent the same way the Hurricane Blast does.


12b) Also, give the melee the following cancel options:


Hard feint
Guardbreak
Dodge & dodge attack.
Tozen's Kick
Old Riptide


12c) The move could also be a cancel option for the following:


Storm Rush
Old Riptide
Neutral and chained heavies.
Chain finishers by default with the move being a dodge attack.


Why?
This is another suggestion for a possible opener for the Orochi. The melee would force a reaction and add to the Orochi's mix-ups with its cancel options and being a cancel option itself for other moves. What is also good about this move is it can't be abused like many bashes and unblockable heavies due to its nature and would require the player to apply some skill in order for it to be effective.

So there is no excuse not to give the Orochi and Peacekeeper unblockables. Again, they allow them to retain control of the fight and their playstyles. Only poor implementation would produce the opposite.

ICairoI
03-26-2019, 05:26 PM
Honestly at this point since bashes are the best option for openers, rework GB and make it a bash on press and on hold the normal gb? That way the gb is more viable too since all gbs are for anymore are revenge feeding.

Melikethegames
03-27-2019, 09:03 PM
Oh shut up!!! This Topic is about Orochi and not Warlord. See, that´s why we call you a Troll

@Topic: Like others said, if Orochi gets an unblockable then other things have to be looked at also to keep him in line. I´m all for giving him an UB

You cant lock my post for you not devs

Zombie.Face
03-27-2019, 09:28 PM
Yes he needs an unblock able kick i think or something. his play style is so stale with only light spamming. he's nowhere near as good as characters like JJ or BP. i simply stopped playing him because not only is he not viable but he's simply not fun to play with pure light spam. now that the deflect got a nerf its too risky to even try that anymore. not sure why deflect get nerfed but thats another thread i guess..

Ubiflowessence
03-28-2019, 01:57 AM
Hey guys:

Just wanted to give an update that I've share this feedback with the team to say what may or may not be possible in the future and will be keeping an eye on it for more!

Soldier_of_Dawn
04-01-2019, 11:40 AM
Perhaps buffing deflects to make them less redundant could be a way forward. Here are my brainstorms on this one:

Hyper Armour with Deflects:
Adding hyper armour to deflects or improving the timing of the deflect's hyper armour.

Countering Unblockable Attacks with Deflects:
Allowing deflects to counter unblockable attacks would give the heroes concerned more opportunities to use their high-risk kit. Correct me where I'm wrong but unblockables are called unblockable attacks but not undeflectable attacks. Would rules be broken by buffing deflects in this aspect, especially when we now have Bulwark Counters? This would help counter the bash-meta and help deal with multiple opponents including stringing multiple deflects.

Executions from Deflects:
Allow executions from heavy deflects.

Additional Effects to Deflects:
The reward for deflects is not always worth the risk, especially when dealing with heroes with a lot of hyper armour. We've already seen damage buffs for deflects only to find players opting for parries instead in many cases. Additional effects could be added to deflects to create openings as well as stop momentum. These could be the following:


Stun/blind
Knock-back/side-knock
Knock-down
Stamina drain/damage
Brief immobilisation (as with the Orochi's Hurricane Blast)
Making deflects chain-starters