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PhysicsInWar
05-24-2008, 01:52 AM
Hey folks,

I still have a lot of trouble in shoot down air planes, even trying to shoot C-47, a big and def endless defenseless plane. What should I pay attention on? Ranging, timing to shoot, angle to come in the target, etc?

I all fell out of the sky by stalling, how may I avoid that?

Thanks

PhysicsInWar
05-24-2008, 01:52 AM
Hey folks,

I still have a lot of trouble in shoot down air planes, even trying to shoot C-47, a big and def endless defenseless plane. What should I pay attention on? Ranging, timing to shoot, angle to come in the target, etc?

I all fell out of the sky by stalling, how may I avoid that?

Thanks

Xiolablu3
05-24-2008, 02:51 AM
Dont turn so hard if you dont want to stall., or make sure you are fast enough to turn hard.

IN GENERAL :- remember that every turn, no matter how hard, will lose you speed/energy and you are more susceptable to stalling when you are slower. ie the slower you are, the easier to stall in a turn.

For an experiment take up a plane, get yourself up to 450kph and pull a hard turn (but not so hard that you stall), watch the speed fall off as you turn tighter.

You need speed and energy to be able to pull off a turn, so once you have lost all that, you will be flopping about in the air stalling.

Fighterduck
05-24-2008, 03:51 AM
its not the stick that will increase your skills ^^

but..first of all what kind of approach you choose to shot them down? Stalling can be a problem if you try to fly just behind them at the same low speed with planes that dont like this. And at low speed, hard and sudden stick movements can make the plane stall easely.
On the other side if you chose an high speed approach, BNZ for example, dont pull to hard to zoom out or some planes will stall. Just practice.
Range and convergence are things you must work on. For planes like a C47 o He111 i love P-47 with 200m convergence. You come from high and from left or right and you make a deflection shooting. In the 99% o cases the plane is so full of bullets that cant fly or drop bombs anymore. Plus you have high chances to kill the pilot. But this is more complicated to stay just behind it and shoot ^^ ..but staiyng in dead 6 its not good thing. C47 dont, but others bombers got turrets. So make fast approach and try to shoot at sensible parts like engines. And remeber that its not necessary that you destroy it at the first try ^^
( and use big guns for fisrt like Tempest this will increase youe chance to bring that 47 out of the sky )

Klemm.co
05-24-2008, 04:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fighterduck:
its not the stick that will increase your skills ^^
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Disagreed 100%.
The X-52 increased my skill tenfold. Its lovely self-centering function is just so much better compared to sticks without it and pots instead of the HALL sensors the X-52 has.
With the right stick profile (very important) and lots of practice (even more important) i got much more proficient than with all other sticks i previously had.

PhysicsInWar seems to be either relatively new to the game or hasn't got the feeling for shooting and flying yet. That's something that sets on with practice. I can remember that when i first flew with all the difficulty options like stalls and blackouts on, i couldn't stay in the air aswell. It's like learing to drive a bike. At first it is awkward, but later on, with experience, very precise control can be exerted. Remember, this is only an example, i know that learing to fly an airplane is slightly more difficult. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

When shooting, i imagine my plane being my weapon, and the bullets that i let fly as a line, which must touch the thing i want to hit. Not a straight line of course, more a line bending more and more down with distance. But for close shots this doesn't matter too much. But it still does.
So i'd suggest getting a feel for your airplane first and then trying to shoot others down.
The first time i few the 190, i was good in other planes, but in this one i just plain sucked. But i kept on it and now it's easy not to stall and fly it right.

What Fighterduck said is also right, but to me it seems your problem lies on another level.
I hate to say it, but success comes only with practice. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

BWaltteri
05-24-2008, 04:29 AM
Take your time with easy difficulty, increase it later on when you get better.

Just few days ago I rejoyced because I managed to shoot down two Tschaikas with a Gladiator. Earlier on I had considered that impossibly hard.

Klemm.co
05-24-2008, 04:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fighterduck:
C47 dont, but others bombers got turrets. So make fast approach and try to shoot at sensible parts like engines. And remeber that its not necessary that you destroy it at the first try ^^
( and use big guns for fisrt like Tempest this will increase youe chance to bring that 47 out of the sky ) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Li-2 got a turret and side guns, the Russian Dakota. That were some of the most daring shootdowns i ever had. Me in a He-162C against 12 of them. Speed difference 600 to 700 km/h and at night. Some were from the low six and others were from various angles in front. My wingman let himself get shot down by them, got slow in behind them and got blasted away.
This was in the fantastic Baltic Sparrows campaign. IL-10s were the toughest to crack. I hope someday a sequel comes out for it! (The end of the campaign seemed to suggest a possible sequel.)

For target practice i'd suggest the abovementioned Li-2, since it is faster than the C-47 and has guns to watch out for.
It's better to start out hard, you get better faster that way, although the start is much tougher.

Fighterduck
05-24-2008, 04:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Klemm.co:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fighterduck:
its not the stick that will increase your skills ^^
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Disagreed 100%.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But still its like tennis: a pro player will defeat you even if he play with a '60 equipement and you using a titanium one ^^. Some are good at shooting and some less, independently for which stick are you using.
Joystick can help you, but if you have not the "thouch" well, you dont have it ^^
But hey, this is my point of view and personal experience..

Klemm.co
05-24-2008, 05:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fighterduck:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Klemm.co:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fighterduck:
its not the stick that will increase your skills ^^
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Disagreed 100%.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But still its like tennis: a pro player will defeat you even if he play with a '60 equipement and you using a titanium one ^^. Some are good at shooting and some less, independently for which stick are you using.
Joystick can help you, but if you have not the "thouch" well, you dont have it ^^
But hey, this is my point of view and personal experience.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
WEll, i guess you are right on this one, as i was talking about the "touch" as well. I guess how good a stick makes you varies between persons. And the shooting skills vary too, of course. I've had occasions when my mind was telling me to aim at some spot so my bullets would hit at a 500 meter deflection shot, although i myself had no idea of the deflection. And bang, target hit. I guess it's about to develop that deep feeling for what's right, the same for flying skills, while not really being able to manipulate everything consciously.
Being able to do such things consciously just wasn't and isn't possible for me.

AnaK774
05-24-2008, 05:46 AM
Skill doesn't come from stick.

It comes from learning to use your equipment like it should be.

You could describe your problem slightly more accurately

ntrk tells more than 1000 words btw http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SeaFireLIV
05-24-2008, 06:14 AM
You may have the `X-Super duper special` that cost 1000, but you`ll still be beat by an experienced pilot with a 10 stick if you don`t know what you`re doing.

It`s the same principle as with the aircraft themselves. It`s not the tool, it`s the man.

The rest of the advice is good. It`s a common mistake for rookies to pull too hard. You literally have to learn to `feel` how far you can pull to turn a plane. Never pull hard until you know your plane backwards.

DKoor
05-24-2008, 06:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhysicsInWar:
Hey folks,

I still have a lot of trouble in shoot down air planes, even trying to shoot C-47, a big and def endless defenseless plane. What should I pay attention on? Ranging, timing to shoot, angle to come in the target, etc?

I all fell out of the sky by stalling, how may I avoid that?

Thanks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Be above them, maneuver behind them... then dive one them!
Make sure you run above 500kph TAS (true air speed)!
That will make your ship a good and stable gun platform, all you have to do is to correct your approach on bandits with small rudder and aileron inputs, if you left your aircraft's elevator untrimmed, your bird's nose will 'want' to get it up... so very small elevator movements are required on most types...

I'll make you an example of a QMB mission that you can download and practice your gunnery with enemy JABO's that don't evade http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

Xiolablu3
05-24-2008, 06:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
You may have the `X-Super duper special` that cost 1000, but you`ll still be beat by an experienced pilot with a 10 stick if you don`t know what you`re doing.

It`s the same principle as with the aircraft themselves. It`s not the tool, it`s the man.

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

DKoor
05-24-2008, 07:17 AM
As promised... here is a sample track and QMB mission that will enable you to recreate that test mission 100% http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

p51d_shootout (http://www.datafilehost.com/download-b5359595.html)

FW-190A should represent fairly "hard" targets, but still if you manage to concentrate your fire on them, they go down... for every pass on the track, I managed to shot down one FW. So it is doable.

Bonus of this mission setup is that these FW's wont evade your (BnZ) attacks!

So in a way they are just target drones... common IL2 Ai just jink and evade quite good for a gunnery practice IMO, humans also evade excellent, but they usually have much slower reaction time.
The most annoying thing about AI is that they always see you and take evasive maneuvers, unless you jump them on great speed (they don't have time then http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) .

DKoor
05-24-2008, 07:19 AM
And yes sorry... I forgot; load your P-51D with 50% fuel and load FW-190A's with 100% fuel on setup.
You may also consider setting your machine gun convergence below 250m for nice results http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif .

VW-IceFire
05-24-2008, 07:37 AM
Just keep practicing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If its offline...focus on bringing down the enemy in the first 3 seconds that you're in range to shoot them down. Any longer and scold yourself and repeat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kill the AI quickly and efficiently. Once you're good at that and you find yourself not wasting extra time on them...then you'll be more than prepared to take on the online world. That said, a more newbie friendly server like UK-1 or one of the Winds servers might be a good place to go...you'll die allot at first but you'll near to climb to altitude, pick your battles carefully, and you'll improve quickly.

The other thing to consider is working on something other than fighters. Ground pounding can be just as rewarding and requires a different skill set.

Chivas
05-24-2008, 09:50 AM
I practice by shooting 16 friendly aircraft in the QMB. Its a good way to test and get a feel for your convergence settings. You must also have a feel for deflection shooting, knowing how far infront and what angle to fire from, for the enemy to fly thru your stream of bullets.

Joysticks can make a big difference. For example I could very quickly sideslip and shoot down all 16 aircraft with about one 108 shell each with my MSFF2 sidewinder, but it took much longer and alot more ammo to shoot them down with my X52. In the X52's defence I had one of the first models, later models where not supposed to have the hardwired deadzone. But never verified. I know my later Aviator was far more precise than my X52, so hopefully later versions of the X52 were improved.

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-24-2008, 10:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Disagreed 100%.
The X-52 increased my skill tenfold. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You most likely had much more experience then him with sims before he got his hotas. Not much will help a new pilot other then practice. If you cant get the basics down it wont matter what stick you have. I was just as good with my Sidewinder Precision 2 as I was with my X52 and now CH Products. Although its a much more fun and functional experience with the CH Products.

S!

Bearcat99
05-24-2008, 10:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhysicsInWar:
Hey folks,

I still have a lot of trouble in shoot down air planes, even trying to shoot C-47, a big and def endless defenseless plane. What should I pay attention on? Ranging, timing to shoot, angle to come in the target, etc?

I all fell out of the sky by stalling, how may I avoid that?
Thanks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats because your skills are in you not the stick... and you need to practice. Bear in mind that many of the folks who fly this sim have been doing so for years.. and many had experience in other sims... Just hit the Nugget's Guide.. and do what it says.. look at the utilities listed.. especially Snipers Corner, The RAF Gunnery manual.. and Dart's videos.. Remember though there is no substitute for putting in the time till you start to get the feel for it.

M_Gunz
05-24-2008, 11:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhysicsInWar:
I all fell out of the sky by stalling, how may I avoid that? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Learning to fly properly before trying to do the rest would help tremendously.

You can approach it like an arcade game or you can approach it like a flight sim, your choice.
You can find buddies either way too.

Stalling happens when you get too slow and still insist on trying to keep the plane going as
you have, staying up or staying in the turn or whatever.

Spinning happens when you stall while your plane is in a slip condition.

Slip condition is when your nose is not pointed where the plane is going, one wing is ahead and
the other behind, the airflow over each differs and the rearward wing stalls first, you spin.

You can tell if you are in slip by the slip indicator. On *most* planes it is that ball in
the upward curved tube on the instrument panel and usually easy to find. If that ball isn't
centered in the track then your plane is not pointing where it's going, you are in slip and
your gunsight is not pointing where the shots will go either.

You keep out of slip by ruddering towards the side where the ball is, the pilot term is
"Step on the Ball". Flying with slip, you have extra drag and will never get best speed
or acceleration as well as having your aim screwed up at any but very close range where
it will only be off by a small amount.

Stall happens when you don't have enough air speed for the load you have put on the plane.
Straight and level flight you are at 1G, the load is the plane and you stall at the stall
speed for whatever condition your plane is at -- which varies.

Reference 1G stall, what is called "stall speed" is for a loaded plane (fuel load, ammo,
ordinance up to a certain specified amount) flying straight, level and properly in condition
that has terms; clean stall is with flaps and gear up, dirty stall with those down, sometimes
you might see stall listed with flaps down to various degrees even. That speed is the slowest
you can fly straight and level with that load and those conditions.

If you turn the plane then you've increased the load by accelerating it, increasing the G's.
The stall speed goes up in a turn, you can't hold a turn as slow as you can fly straight.

It all makes easy sense yet it's been news to many "just jump in and learn" players, and
that's just the start.

The more properly you learn from digging in to ground school courses the fewer mysteries
will surprise you while playing. If you learn energy management then you will find yourself
flying higher and faster just for using the principles. You still have to fly clean to get
the full payoff but clean flying without practicing energy management is also limiting.

People learning to fly real planes spend hours with ground school books and they are not
trying any aerobatics, tactics or shooting. When they get their license after having
learned and done more than your average gamer ever will, they STILL don't think they are
experts able to get full performance out of any plane they try -- and that is REAL.

With the game we have the luxury of a refly button. Have FUN for sure but when you want
to be good and get good enough to be accused of cheating http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif the start digging into
the real pilot sites, the ground school books and pick up a thing or two to include in a
bit of practice here and there.

Here's a good source for starts, maybe more than you'll ever need. (http://www.av8n.com/how/)

Check out the Joint-Ops online school for IL2 as well, there's a waiting list just to get in.

You want to swim doggy paddle or you want to do a proper crawl?

crucislancer
05-24-2008, 12:23 PM
A big +1 on all the advice given so far. I really can't add much to it, except I recommend experimenting with your stick sensitivity until you find something comfortable. I went from a Logitech Wingman Extreme 3D with the standard joystick sensitivity (20 through 100) which was comfortable for that crappy stick, to the X-52, which feels most comfortable with the sensitivity maxed out to 100 for pitch and roll, and a curve from 0 to 100 for the rudder twist. Take a look at IL2 JoyControl (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=1021), a great program for setting up your stick. You will find that the X-52 excels with the roll and pitch at 100.

PhysicsInWar
05-25-2008, 01:23 PM
Thanks for everyone's advice and comment.

I will definitely work on the skill practicing. And I also agree that the a stick will not help someone if he does not have skill at all. Actually before I was flying with the keyboard, so now I got the stick, that does make a difference there.

The hard part is I cannot really calculate the range, the speed I need to approach the target so I can shoot it. Mos time I miss it, I cannot aim at where I want since the plane is shaking.

Oh by the way, I see on the control setup, there are some key used to adjust the gun sight and bombing sight, actually how should we use them?

This simulation is so realistic and cool, that is why I need to play it well no matter what.

And thanks again for all help http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

steiner562
05-25-2008, 01:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhysicsInWar:
Thanks for everyone's advice and comment.

I will definitely work on the skill practicing.
Oh by the way, I see on the control setup, there are some key used to adjust the gun sight and bombing sight, actually how should we use them?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you go to the contol setup and look down the list you will see an option for "Toggle Fov" it lets you have the differnt views in the cockpit,I assign a button on my throttle for it.

Airmail109
05-26-2008, 06:08 AM
Air to AIr gunnery is a dark art. Use the force.

No seriously you have to kind of aim your planes where you want to shoot not the gunsight...visualize your flightpath...the flightpath of the bullets and the flightpath of your target.

A good begginners technique is to start from lag pursuit, then pull through the targets flight path like clay pidgeon shooting to lead pursuit.....double the defection that you would give it...then let the fighter fly into your tracers.

Keep practicing this until it only takes you short bursts.

M_Gunz
05-26-2008, 07:23 AM
It really helps to make tracks of your gunnery practice and review those.
Before playback go into conf.ini and set Arcade=1.
Pause playback at the start of shooting and check both the sight picture and your slip.
Change POV to outside the target looking back at your plane then start at 1/4 speed and
watch where the shots are going.
Knowing where the shots are really going provides feedback data that really helps.