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View Full Version : Nerf the shugo already, he is god tier in 4's



Sweaty_Sock
03-18-2019, 11:36 AM
Title says it all, he can pretty much be as hard to anti gank as a highlander but with twice the HP

Target switching HA unblockables out the wazoo that can turn into hugs or better yet cancle into a target switch zone... its revenge raider build without the requirement for revenge...

Kadete93
03-18-2019, 02:02 PM
Well he is a strong char atm, and one of my hardest matchups honestly.. but i don't know what kind of nerf he should get, I think would be better if they keep buffing and reworking weaker heroes.

The_B0G_
03-18-2019, 02:19 PM
His hug in 4v4 modes is the only issue I have with him, getting ganked by a shugo is brutal, even if you dodge his hug you usually get hammered by his teammate, and if he misses the hug there is nothing being risked on his end like there used to be.

It's being over used as is.

Melikethegames
03-18-2019, 02:27 PM
Title says it all, he can pretty much be as hard to anti gank as a highlander but with twice the HP

Target switching HA unblockables out the wazoo that can turn into hugs or better yet cancle into a target switch zone... its revenge raider build without the requirement for revenge...

shugoki its not strong enamy keep roll dodge away shugoki attack

Kadete93
03-18-2019, 02:29 PM
His hug in 4v4 modes is the only issue I have with him, getting ganked by a shugo is brutal, even if you dodge his hug you usually get hammered by his teammate, and if he misses the hug there is nothing being risked on his end like there used to be.

It's being over used as is.

and that tracking OMG! I play with aramusha (who doesn't have the best side dodge) and F***! I don't wanna hugs anymore!!

atac56
03-18-2019, 03:23 PM
Well he is a strong char atm, and one of my hardest matchups honestly.. but i don't know what kind of nerf he should get, I think would be better if they keep buffing and reworking weaker heroes.

agreed. its better to give the older, weaker heroes more tools to combat the updated characters like the shugoki

The_B0G_
03-18-2019, 04:41 PM
and that tracking OMG! I play with aramusha (who doesn't have the best side dodge) and F***! I don't wanna hugs anymore!!

Yeah, I've had him turn 90 degrees and grab me from the direction the hug starts. I don't know how they would fix it, but I feel like it needs a change.

Vakris_One
03-18-2019, 05:06 PM
Shugo has always had a gank presence due to his hug and target switching unblockables. Now that he can do these two moves more often but with less damage now he's a problem? I don't follow your logic.

Shugo's gank presence remains mechanically and technically the same as it was before just re-balanced for fluidity over damage but still getting more or less the same results. Simply replacing him being clunky but delivering high damage on a successful hit with him being more fluid but overall doing less damage per successful hit.

Before he could do massive damage if he caught you but he was too slow and clunky to catch you very often. Now he can catch you more often but he does a lot less damage. His CC ability via hug has been drastically reduced because he can now be disrupted out of it and it only allows for a single exterior heavy.

What would you nerf here without also having to compensate him in another area? Hard nerfing Shugo is not warranted and would just delete him from the roster all over again.


His hug in 4v4 modes is the only issue I have with him, getting ganked by a shugo is brutal, even if you dodge his hug you usually get hammered by his teammate,
Isn't that the case with every competently done gank though? You dodge one attack to then get caught by their teammate's well timed pincer punish.

As for his hug being brutal. I mean, when you look at what Raider, Lawbringer and Shinobi can still do to you in a gank - denying you revenge as you are forced to sit there being clobbered merrily by up to 3 other attackers given free reign while the game just goes, "This is fine.". Yeah, Shugo's new hug is totally the problem here. The move that only allows for one external hit in the best case scenario and can even be interrupted early enough before it even does damage to you. Meanwhile we have those 3 moves in the game that still insta-delete you in a gank.

Perhaps we should want those 3 insanely overtuned moves balanced properly before looking at the move which has already been made to work more fairly than them.



and if he misses the hug there is nothing being risked on his end like there used to be.
An ultra long recovery on a whiffed hug that guarrantees even the game's slowest heavy, that can be done after a dodge roll in some cases, isn't risking anything?

Goat_of_Vermund
03-18-2019, 05:22 PM
I think the following should be changed:

1. His lights should be normal lights. They are hyperarmored and 500ms, they shouldn't start chains nor deal block damage.
2. His hug should either heal way less, or should not regain his stamina. It involves very bad risk/reward for the opponent. The tracking of the hug is very irritating too.
3. Zone should be undodgable to chase down rolls.

Knight_Raime
03-19-2019, 09:58 AM
His hug in 4v4 modes is the only issue I have with him, getting ganked by a shugo is brutal, even if you dodge his hug you usually get hammered by his teammate, and if he misses the hug there is nothing being risked on his end like there used to be.

It's being over used as is.

He still has the same whiff recovery on a missed hug from pre rework. Which leaves him open for a full 2 seconds. There was actually a competitive reddit post that showed every hero's max damage punish against a whiffed hug. You can actually hurt him quite a bit.

Sweaty_Sock
03-19-2019, 11:15 AM
He still has the same whiff recovery on a missed hug from pre rework. Which leaves him open for a full 2 seconds. There was actually a competitive reddit post that showed every hero's max damage punish against a whiffed hug. You can actually hurt him quite a bit.

Its of little to no value when you are being ganked - The Shugo to good in 4's, unblockabkle/hug spam when ganking, and can anti gank like a season 1 revenge build (mostly because of his available perks & feats, he can get 10% damage resist on a point, a persistent shield after revenge, has HA so the nerf to revenge means he still cant be staggered, he has feats to cliff easier, can't be knocked down/wall splatted, has a higher HP feat & the top cheese also add HP returned on kill (not execute).

In a gank he has revenge before the shield from the last revenge has really even been worked through

Sweaty_Sock
03-19-2019, 11:27 AM
Shugo has always had a gank presence due to his hug and target switching unblockables. Now that he can do these two moves more often but with less damage now he's a problem? I don't follow your logic.

Shugo's gank presence remains mechanically and technically the same as it was before just re-balanced for fluidity over damage but still getting more or less the same results. Simply replacing him being clunky but delivering high damage on a successful hit with him being more fluid but overall doing less damage per successful hit.

Absolutely wrong sorry- the difference is old HA had a cd and so you had to think about what you were trading into and the relative speeds of the followup attack as you could be staggered, particularly in a gank. Now HA startsup on everything, even his lights, so you don't need to think 1 bit about what your opponents doing just go through the motions of a few mixups - i know because i spent 28 reps on the old shugo and the new one feels so utterly overpowered I can't bring myself to play my funnest character anymore


What would you nerf here without also having to compensate him in another area? Hard nerfing Shugo is not warranted and would just delete him from the roster all over again. no, just tweak his HA so its on from chain startup and disappears on a hit like it used to - its for thoughtful out-trading, not just swinging with impunity


Perhaps we should want those 3 insanely overtuned moves balanced properly before looking at the move which has already been made to work more fairly than them. two wrongs don't make a right and pointing out othe broken things doesnt make him any better - plus none of these are led with the threat of a 50 damage hyperarmour unblockable from one of the toughest characters in the game and all three are relatively easy to dodge, they don't hook 90 degrees becuse you dodges slightly early to avoid some characters bash during a gank



An ultra long recovery on a whiffed hug that guarrantees even the game's slowest heavy, that can be done after a dodge roll in some cases, isn't risking anything? worthless when being ganked, if you go for 'the slowest heavy' you will be hit in the face by their team mate, making this a very safe gank move that as you said does damage and guarantees an external heavy

The_B0G_
03-19-2019, 01:00 PM
He still has the same whiff recovery on a missed hug from pre rework. Which leaves him open for a full 2 seconds. There was actually a competitive reddit post that showed every hero's max damage punish against a whiffed hug. You can actually hurt him quite a bit.

I was referring to in gank situations, in 1v1 he's as annoying as he's always been, nothing changed there. But now he doesn't lose health on a whiff, it doesn't matter his recovery because if you're fighting multiple people you can't attack him on a whiff because you'll already be getting hit by someone else from making a dodge.

Before when he spammed his hugs, every time you dodged it was like hitting him with a heavy, then you give a little poke to end him, now he just charges heavy attacks and spams hugs without any risk, if he gets you him and his team destroy you, if he misses he just tries again.

The_B0G_
03-19-2019, 01:19 PM
Shugo has always had a gank presence due to his hug and target switching unblockables. Now that he can do these two moves more often but with less damage now he's a problem? I don't follow your logic.

Shugo's gank presence remains mechanically and technically the same as it was before just re-balanced for fluidity over damage but still getting more or less the same results. Simply replacing him being clunky but delivering high damage on a successful hit with him being more fluid but overall doing less damage per successful hit.

Before he could do massive damage if he caught you but he was too slow and clunky to catch you very often. Now he can catch you more often but he does a lot less damage. His CC ability via hug has been drastically reduced because he can now be disrupted out of it and it only allows for a single exterior heavy.

What would you nerf here without also having to compensate him in another area? Hard nerfing Shugo is not warranted and would just delete him from the roster all over again.


Isn't that the case with every competently done gank though? You dodge one attack to then get caught by their teammate's well timed pincer punish.

As for his hug being brutal. I mean, when you look at what Raider, Lawbringer and Shinobi can still do to you in a gank - denying you revenge as you are forced to sit there being clobbered merrily by up to 3 other attackers given free reign while the game just goes, "This is fine.". Yeah, Shugo's new hug is totally the problem here. The move that only allows for one external hit in the best case scenario and can even be interrupted early enough before it even does damage to you. Meanwhile we have those 3 moves in the game that still insta-delete you in a gank.

Perhaps we should want those 3 insanely overtuned moves balanced properly before looking at the move which has already been made to work more fairly than them.


An ultra long recovery on a whiffed hug that guarrantees even the game's slowest heavy, that can be done after a dodge roll in some cases, isn't risking anything?

Yes, competent ganks work this way, but most moves aren't unblockable hugs that give health to the attacker while disabling the victim and thtowing him to the floor for his teammates after, even unblockable attacks you can parry, unblockable bashes only stagger you and build a lot of revenge. With Shugo you have to dodge, you have no choice, and yes the LB has the longarm that is simlar but it's extremely telegraphed.

Raider has his running charge and shinobi has ranged GB, but I've never had this much of an issue with any of them. They can't really spam them, ranged GB doesn't work well at all in ganks, the only time I get hit with it is when I'm not being attacked and don't see it coming. Raider needs a GB or a running start to get his.

When you're trying to fight 2 or 3 people and a shugoki is charging heavy after heavy and using a lot of soft feint hugs it's by far the most oppressive ganking situation I know of. You can't always be watching everything, it's bad enough with ond shugoki, you get two and it's near impossible to deal with. Imagine if the raider could soft feint his zone into his running charge, that's what the shugoki is like now.


As far as his recovery is concerned over a whiff, I was talking about no risk in ganks, in 1v1 shugoki is more or less the same difficulty, maybe a bit harder but not bad. The issue I'm bringing up is that in ganks you can spam hugs non stop and I've been seeing a lot of them do exactly that. Any game with a Shugo in 4v4 you can guarentee he will be doing hugs non stop.

Vakris_One
03-19-2019, 01:43 PM
Absolutely wrong sorry- the difference is old HA had a cd and so you had to think about what you were trading into and the relative speeds of the followup attack as you could be staggered, particularly in a gank. Now HA startsup on everything, even his lights, so you don't need to think 1 bit about what your opponents doing just go through the motions of a few mixups - i know because i spent 28 reps on the old shugo and the new one feels so utterly overpowered I can't bring myself to play my funnest character anymore
Old HA was passive and in combination with his guarranteed headbutt was much more potent at trading against everything including bashes. You could stop any kind of offense dead. Old Shugo could GB you right through an attack by using his passive HA. If you're next to a wall say goodbye to 40 health or possibly a one shot if he's critical. Not exactly the height of balance.

Old HA totally allowed him to trade with lights my friend, he just had to wait for it come back up again.



no, just tweak his HA so its on from chain startup and disappears on a hit like it used to - its for thoughtful out-trading, not just swinging with impunity
500ms light attacks are "swinging with impunity"? I'm pretty sure you can parry them.

Even if it dissapears on hit there is no character whose attacks are fast enough to disrupt him out of the startup of his 500ms light. So this won't really change anything.

If you want to make him focus on trying to get more precise about trading then a better change would be to remove the superior light property on his lights so if you block him he can't chain into anything else. This will make him go more for trades if he wants to get into his chains. However this will impact his offensive pressure and will make him more of a defensive minded hero like before. Personally I prefer the new more aggressive Shugo because I like having to push buttons against my opponent rather than having long boring stare downs.



two wrongs don't make a right and pointing out othe broken things doesnt make him any better - plus none of these are led with the threat of a 50 damage hyperarmour unblockable from one of the toughest characters in the game and all three are relatively easy to dodge, they don't hook 90 degrees becuse you dodges slightly early to avoid some characters bash during a gank
The highest damage he can do now is 40 from a fully charged unblockable.

This isn't a matter of two (actually three) wrongs don't make a right. This is about the rather ludicrous notion of wanting to nerf the character whose move has already been tweaked to be more fair than those other 3 insta-deletes instead of getting those 3 moves toned down to normal parameters. Their tracking is adequate enough and none of them risk a 2 second recovery on a miss. All 3 of them can keep trying their move with impunity in a gank and all it takes to kill you, from near enough full health, is to land it just once. Sorry but you just can't put Shugo's hug in the same category - easily disrupted, 25 damage, only allows for one external heavy.

If you want to reduce Shugo's tracking that's fine but then you have to reduce his recovery time on a miss. You can't have it both ways with reduced tracking and an ultra long recovery. Either one or the other but not both.

Furthermore, at least Shugo has to park up next to you where you can see him and you can potentially go for a dodge roll away on reaction to him. A Raider or Lawbringer coming from off-screen from behind you is completely unreactable and you can get instantly deleted for a move he doesn't even need to use 2 buttons to accomplish. A Shinobi ranged guardbreak from off-screen from a hero you can't even see on the mini map, same deal.



worthless when being ganked, if you go for 'the slowest heavy' you will be hit in the face by their team mate, making this a very safe gank move that as you said does damage and guarantees an external heavy
EVERYTHING is very safe in a gank dude, as long as your teammate isn't brain dead. At least that's 2 seconds the Shugo won't be attacking you. If your criteria for nerfing a move in a gank is that it can do damage and guarrantee a single external heavy then you'd be wanting to nerf the likes of Shaman, Centurion, Highlander and possibly even Guardbreaks.

And again, are we honestly going to ignore the 3 moves that can insta-delete you in favor of complaining about the one that cannot? I'm surprised I'm even having to have this conversation.

Sweaty_Sock
03-19-2019, 02:04 PM
Vakris_one - re: his lights, he starts them late into a light attack and still wins the trade

If you want to be aggressive I would recommend not picking a heavy - honestly why does he have the HP pool he does when hes more effective in the offense than half the lineup now?

Get him to vanguard HP and i'd be fine with him, but its the platform he has, the HP reserve that he can replenish, that lets him try & fail and still win fights. You cant punish he like he can punish you because two heavies from him at 80 damage hurt you more than two heavies from you at 80 hurt him

Vakris_One
03-19-2019, 02:23 PM
Yes, competent ganks work this way, but most moves aren't unblockable hugs that give health to the attacker while disabling the victim and thtowing him to the floor for his teammates after,
So you'll be wanting Shaman, Centurion, Highlander, Raider, Lawbringer and Shinobi nerfed as well then, yes?



even unblockable attacks you can parry, unblockable bashes only stagger you and build a lot of revenge. With Shugo you have to dodge, you have no choice, and yes the LB has the longarm that is simlar but it's extremely telegraphed.
A move coming in from off-screen is not telegraphed at all. Shugo's hug is a big threat but at least he has to be close to you where you can see him.



Raider has his running charge and shinobi has ranged GB, but I've never had this much of an issue with any of them. They can't really spam them, ranged GB doesn't work well at all in ganks, the only time I get hit with it is when I'm not being attacked and don't see it coming. Raider needs a GB or a running start to get his.
It doesn't really matter if you've not had an issue with them. They are objectively massively overtuned moves whereas Shugo's is objectively fairer in how it works in a gank. He doesn't pin you down forever, can be disrupted and only allows for a single external heavy on you.

You must not have met any good Shinobi's or Raiders. Raider needs 2 steps to initiate a running charge - Something that both Warlord and Shinobi have been nerfed for - and he can dodge into GB - a move that allows him massive punish in a gank for simply dodging an attack. A Shinobi can stay out of range in a gank and risk absolutely nothing if his GB gets flipped. They can both absolutely spam their moves just as much as a Shugo can spam his hug.



When you're trying to fight 2 or 3 people and a shugoki is charging heavy after heavy and using a lot of soft feint hugs it's by far the most oppressive ganking situation I know of. You can't always be watching everything, it's bad enough with ond shugoki, you get two and it's near impossible to deal with. Imagine if the raider could soft feint his zone into his running charge, that's what the shugoki is like now.
That's not a fair comparison because the Shugoki hug can be disrupted before he even does damage to you. Raider's carry cannot and it is more damaging overall in a gank situation. Besides Raider can already dash GB into a shoulder carry, it's no unblockable indicator flashing but it can catch recoveries from trying to target switch attack him - quite potent in its own respect. Who knows, maybe in Raider's rework they'll let him soft feint his zone into his carry but with reduced damage and made disruptible.

What would you nerf about the hug in a gank and how would you compensate the Shugoki for it?



As far as his recovery is concerned over a whiff, I was talking about no risk in ganks, in 1v1 shugoki is more or less the same difficulty, maybe a bit harder but not bad. The issue I'm bringing up is that in ganks you can spam hugs non stop and I've been seeing a lot of them do exactly that. Any game with a Shugo in 4v4 you can guarentee he will be doing hugs non stop.
As I said to Sweaty Sock, everything is safe in a gank but at least that's 2 seconds of the Shugoki not pressuring you until he recovers. In that time you could choose to run away or kill his teammate if he's on low health. When Shugo is in that 2 second recovery he's useless to his teammate.

If you consider his hugs as spam what about Raider carry, Shaman pounce, Highlander kick grab, Shinobi GB, Lawbringer choo choo train, Glad toe stab, Centurion unblockables, etc?

The answer to solving ganks against a Shugo is having teammates around you to disrupt him and stifle his hug attempts. If you keep getting isolated by the enemy then escape and re-group is the only option.

Sweaty_Sock
03-19-2019, 02:48 PM
The answer to solving ganks against a Shugo is having teammates around you to disrupt him and stifle his hug attempts. If you keep getting isolated by the enemy then escape and re-group is the only option.
you mean feed his revenge...

His feats & perks are all too good for the platform they go onto, the characater changes the game at the moment like no other (BP has vanished...)

I.e. timed a full charged stab from cent strait into a shugo, oh wait, he pressed light attack at the last minute

Bloodwake1980
03-19-2019, 02:54 PM
The thing that I don't understand is his head butt. I was facing one player in duels he just walked in to lock range. He bent his head and instantly with no movement closed the distance with his head butt in to a automatic hug. Then spammed the crap out of that each time before my guy was up. He was scooping me off the ground.
How the heckam I supposed to defend from my back even Raider has to let you stand up. And God if warlord had the exact same style of charging head butt their would be a different landscape on heavyweight users.

Now how did I defend the second round was similar to his tactic. I was warlord so we exchanged head butts he would get a few on me. But the ones I stopped changed his mind on the third round.

Sweaty_Sock
03-19-2019, 02:56 PM
Old HA totally allowed him to trade with lights my friend, he just had to wait for it come back up again.


Or in other words when HA was down was your chance to attack shugo, his time to defend, when HA back up, shugo attack

Now its shugo attack attack attack attack one GB near a wall or miss read on his mixup and all stamina back shugo attack attack attack attack

Also saying the hug is only 25 damage is wrong, its a HP transition of what, 50 (-25+25)

Vakris_One
03-19-2019, 03:02 PM
Vakris_one - re: his lights, he starts them late into a light attack and still wins the trade
He's a trader. That's always been his thing. I don't see a problem as all the other traders in the game can do this, i.e. Beserker, Highlander, etc. If you mean to reduce it just enough so that characters with double/triple-tap attacks like Orochi top light, Warden side light, Shaolin triple light can disrupt his HA like the old Shugo then I could see the logic of that.



If you want to be aggressive I would recommend not picking a heavy - honestly why does he have the HP pool he does when hes more effective in the offense than half the lineup now?
Well I'm not just talking about playing as Shugoki. I prefer my opponents to have viable forms of offense so they can actually make attacks against me instead of waiting endlessly for trades or punishes.

Secondly, what you say is a bit assinine. It's like saying if I want to actually fight and push buttons with/against characters in a fighting game then I should not play this fighting game. The whole point of giving heroes more viable mind games and mixups is so they can have a viable offense in what is already one of the most passively defensive fighting games in history. The dev's are making these changes because they want more viable offense in the game, not less.

Character classes are mostly a way to distinguish how they get renown, what feats/perks they will get and how they will look cosmetically, i.e. heavies are usually big guys/girls that carry big weapons, assassins are usually smaller, etc. A character's class usually isn't a factor used in balancing their stats or mechanics against.



Get him to vanguard HP and i'd be fine with him, but its the platform he has, the HP reserve that he can replenish, that lets him try & fail and still win fights. You cant punish he like he can punish you because two heavies from him at 80 damage hurt you more than two heavies from you at 80 hurt him
This is quite matchup dependent as well as skill dependant if we're talking 1v1. If you let a Shugo land two fully charged unblockables on you then you deserve to lose.

In 4v4 there's other heroes that can match Shugo's damage pound for pound. Warden getting 40 damage from a level 3 shoulder bash, Kensei getting 45 from his top heavy finisher, Nobushi getting 42 from her top heavy and even more if opponent is bleeding. Highlander does tons of damage.
Jiang Jun is still up there, Vortiger can still guarrantee a steady source of damage via his bashing. Raider's chained zone with its big damage and huge AoE, Shinobi's GB pin with his overtuned damage, Aramusha's parry punishes and chained heavy finishers, Centurion can do a fair bit of damage in a gank if he knock you down and etc.

So I don't see the issue here in singling out Shugoki as having high damage when a fair bit of the roster can match or even slightly exceed it.

Vakris_One
03-19-2019, 03:15 PM
Can I ask you kindly to quote everything you want to reply to in one go. It saves time in having to fish around for your replies.


you mean feed his revenge...

His feats & perks are all too good for the platform they go onto, the characater changes the game at the moment like no other (BP has vanished...)

I.e. timed a full charged stab from cent strait into a shugo, oh wait, he pressed light attack at the last minute
So apparently Shugo is the new Vortiger huh... Oh boy...

Yes, engaging someone in a gank feeds revenge. A truly shocking revelation!


Or in other words when HA was down was your chance to attack shugo, his time to defend, when HA back up, shugo attack

Now its shugo attack attack attack attack one GB near a wall or miss read on his mixup and all stamina back shugo attack attack attack attack

Also saying the hug is only 25 damage is wrong, its a HP transition of what, 50 (-25+25)
It's 25 damage, that is factually correct, and gives him back 25 health. Do you genuinley have a problem with him healing himself or are you just bringing up semantics for the sake of being argumentative?

Sweaty_Sock
03-19-2019, 03:30 PM
He's a trader. That's always been his thing. I don't see a problem as all the other traders in the game can do this, i.e. Beserker, Highlander, etc. If you mean to reduce it just enough so that characters with double/triple-tap attacks like Orochi top light, Warden side light, Shaolin triple light can disrupt his HA like the old Shugo then I could see the logic of that. exactly my point... he shouldnt be able to trade literally anything thats not a bash...



Well I'm not just talking about playing as Shugoki. I prefer my opponents to have viable forms of offense so they can actually make attacks against me instead of waiting endlessly for trades or punishes. adding an opener is one thing, this is something else entirely




Secondly, what you say is a bit assinine. It's like saying if I want to actually fight and push buttons with/against characters in a fighting game then I should not play this fighting game. The whole point of giving heroes more viable mind games and mixups is so they can have a viable offense in what is already one of the most passively defensive fighting games in history. The dev's are making these changes because they want more viable offense in the game, not less.

1) Wait what I said was assinine? So you defend yourself by what, rolling your face across the controls? Your right, when I need to defend against a beserker I actually just let my cat walk on the controls while I make a cup of tea...

2) This wasnt supposed to be another fighting game, it was supposed to be different, if I wanted a fighting game i would have bought mortal combat or similar - the three stances, deliberate, thought out moves. This wasn't supposed to be a braindead button masher


Character classes are mostly a way to distinguish how they get renown, what feats/perks they will get and how they will look cosmetically, i.e. heavies are usually big guys/girls that carry big weapons, assassins are usually smaller, etc. A character's class usually isn't a factor used in balancing their stats or mechanics against. then why do all the heavies have massive hitpoint pools & the assasins all hit fast with lower HP? Maybe you should let Ubi in on this EDIT: assassins don't really comparatively hit all that fast anymore, they just have lower HP :)



This is quite matchup dependent as well as skill dependant if we're talking 1v1. If you let a Shugo land two fully charged unblockables on you then you deserve to lose. now you are just being facetious - that was simply an example that hard hit from a shugo hurts you alot more than a hard hit against a shugo hurts him. despite his new options, speed, softfeint into a 50 damage transition move (remember hug adds 25 and takes 25, so thats 50 damage transition there)


In 4v4 there's other heroes that can match Shugo's damage pound for pound. Warden getting 40 damage from a level 3 shoulder bash, Kensei getting 45 from his top heavy finisher, Nobushi getting 42 from her top heavy and even more if opponent is bleeding. Highlander does tons of damage.
Jiang Jun is still up there, Vortiger can still guarrantee a steady source of damage via his bashing. Raider's chained zone with its big damage and huge AoE, Shinobi's GB pin with his overtuned damage, Aramusha's parry punishes and chained heavy finishers, Centurion can do a fair bit of damage in a gank if he knock you down and etc.

Yes but a kensei cant threaten a HA top finisher from neutral and then turn it into a warden bash through softeint into a 50 HP trade (again, hug is more often than not a 50 damage transition. Warden bash shugo -40, shugo hug warden +25 back -25 to warden. Shugo ahead on trade, DESPITE HAVING A TON MORE HP)


So I don't see the issue here in singling out Shugoki as having high damage when a fair bit of the roster can match or even slightly exceed it. I have another thread called please nerf warden shoulder bash, as a rep 70 warden I say its silly, broken, and shouldn't exist like it does.

The fact is all the characters you listed have flaws - highlander hits hard however has no guard when doing so and has a fraction of shugos HP & hitting hard is his thing...

Nubo's top heavy isnt exactly landing 24/7, its easy to dodge, has no softfeint and isnt unblockable. Vort/JJ got nerfed because it was an issue that needed addressing, Shinobi is a glass cannon, while hitting hard cannot take it in return (a few heavies and its lights out), aramusha lacks openers, his allguard/counters are generally his way in, cent funnilyenough cant stop a shugos HA with a fully charged stab, nor can he knock the shugo down from lvl 2 feat onwards.... also cant wall splat :) EDIT literally just had a game where the shugo realised he has stuffed up so just hit light & poof, perfectly timed full charge cent stab into a flat foot shugo was all gone

EDIT; one proposed change would be is if his hug hits a friendly, he picks them up instead (no damage, just animation) - kinda like a shinobi GB his friend and pulling them back but a tad worse given the shugos ability to tank punishment (and therefor punishes)

The_B0G_
03-19-2019, 03:46 PM
So you'll be wanting Shaman, Centurion, Highlander, Raider, Lawbringer and Shinobi nerfed as well then, yes?


A move coming in from off-screen is not telegraphed at all. Shugo's hug is a big threat but at least he has to be close to you where you can see him.


It doesn't really matter if you've not had an issue with them. They are objectively massively overtuned moves whereas Shugo's is objectively fairer in how it works in a gank. He doesn't pin you down forever, can be disrupted and only allows for a single external heavy on you.

You must not have met any good Shinobi's or Raiders. Raider needs 2 steps to initiate a running charge - Something that both Warlord and Shinobi have been nerfed for - and he can dodge into GB - a move that allows him massive punish in a gank for simply dodging an attack. A Shinobi can stay out of range in a gank and risk absolutely nothing if his GB gets flipped. They can both absolutely spam their moves just as much as a Shugo can spam his hug.


That's not a fair comparison because the Shugoki hug can be disrupted before he even does damage to you. Raider's carry cannot and it is more damaging overall in a gank situation. Besides Raider can already dash GB into a shoulder carry, it's no unblockable indicator flashing but it can catch recoveries from trying to target switch attack him - quite potent in its own respect. Who knows, maybe in Raider's rework they'll let him soft feint his zone into his carry but with reduced damage and made disruptible.

What would you nerf about the hug in a gank and how would you compensate the Shugoki for it?


As I said to Sweaty Sock, everything is safe in a gank but at least that's 2 seconds of the Shugoki not pressuring you until he recovers. In that time you could choose to run away or kill his teammate if he's on low health. When Shugo is in that 2 second recovery he's useless to his teammate.

If you consider his hugs as spam what about Raider carry, Shaman pounce, Highlander kick grab, Shinobi GB, Lawbringer choo choo train, Glad toe stab, Centurion unblockables, etc?

The answer to solving ganks against a Shugo is having teammates around you to disrupt him and stifle his hug attempts. If you keep getting isolated by the enemy then escape and re-group is the only option.

None of the heroes you mention have the same type of move as shuho, not good comparisons, I already stated the difference with LB, Raider and Shinobi. If you're being ganked a shinobi can't land ranged GB, everything interrupts it. With LBs running charge, block right and he's basically at critical stamina, parry it and he's OOS.

No other hero has a soft feint from neutral that CC's damages, heals, and throws an enemy to the ground for more free damage in ganks, the only option is a dodge. Theres no comparison. Also you compare it to Raiders shoulder carry as something that is just as bad, yet his move is getting nerfed upon his rework because of this.

I'm not saying I have a solution to this that won't ruin him in 1v1, but at the very least he should have heavy stamina drain off of a whiff, I just think the risk vs reward isn't balanced on this move.

Dry.Fish
03-19-2019, 04:30 PM
The New Shugoki
https://i.imgur.com/HUqo2Rb.png
:P

Velentix
03-19-2019, 05:40 PM
I dont think Shugo should have HA on opening lights. It effectively shuts down all other offense. All he has to do is light attack whenever his opponent does anything, and he will worst case trade lights, best case interrupt a gb, feint, heavy, or bash. I have fought people like this too.

Vakris_One
03-19-2019, 06:08 PM
1) Wait what I said was assinine? So you defend yourself by what, rolling your face across the controls? Your right, when I need to defend against a beserker I actually just let my cat walk on the controls while I make a cup of tea...
Now that's being completely asinine.



2) This wasnt supposed to be another fighting game, it was supposed to be different, if I wanted a fighting game i would have bought mortal combat or similar - the three stances, deliberate, thought out moves. This wasn't supposed to be a braindead button masher
This game wasn't supposed to be many things and yet it is. The devs have constantly been tweaking and changing the nature of the game since the original creator of the idea, Jason Vandenberghe, left just before the official launch. I don't have an interest towards button mashing fighting games, never found them fun even as a PvE experience. What drew me to For Honor was precisely the more tactical and thought out approach to combat. However I'm not a fan of the extreme end of that either which is a horribly dull passive game where a simple reaction based defence is the be all and end all of winning fights.

I think you've misunderstood my comment about "pushing buttons". "Pushing buttons" is a running joke amongst the high level and competitive community. It's not meant to be taken as literally pressing random buttons. It means being an active participant in a fight and actually doing stuff as apposed to staring at each other and being passive, which is the antithesis of fighting someone.



then why do all the heavies have massive hitpoint pools & the assasins all hit fast with lower HP? Maybe you should let Ubi in on this EDIT: assassins don't really comparatively hit all that fast anymore, they just have lower HP :)
You got me there man. Frankly Ubi should let Ubi in on what they want to do with classes. Heavies now have attacks just as fast as Assassins while 3 out of the 4 Vanguards have the slowest attacks in the game. An Assassin has the most amount of Hyper Armour in the game while a Heavy/Hybrid like Lawbro has none. Feel free to try and decipher the actual parameters Ubisoft considers but I'll let you in on a little secret:

They're making it up as they go along.



now you are just being facetious - that was simply an example that hard hit from a shugo hurts you alot more than a hard hit against a shugo hurts him. despite his new options, speed, softfeint into a 50 damage transition move (remember hug adds 25 and takes 25, so thats 50 damage transition there)
Well no, I was being serious. New Shugoki doesn't heal himself for 40 points while doing 40 damage anymore nor does he one shot at critical - now THAT was crazy. Point I was making is that if you can't prevent new Shugo from landing more than 1 or 2 hugs on you over the course of a 1v1 fight you seriously don't deserve to win that fight.

You have to decide what exactly you want out of this character at the end of the day. Do you want to remove his soft feint into hug but have him instead do huge damage and huge self heal on a successful hug? Or do you want him to have a viable mind game with the hug/unblockable but do much less damage/self heal so you can have more time to adapt to him and take him down? You cannot have your cake and eat it too by both removing his soft feint mind game and having the hug be low damage/no self heal.



Yes but a kensei cant threaten a HA top finisher from neutral and then turn it into a warden bash through softeint into a 50 HP trade (again, hug is more often than not a 50 damage transition. Warden bash shugo -40, shugo hug warden +25 back -25 to warden. Shugo ahead on trade, DESPITE HAVING A TON MORE HP)
You can't keep bringing up semantics in an attempt to artificially scare monger up a perceived "50 SUPER DOOPER UBER MEGA DAMAGE TRADE!!!!". You lose 25 HP, Shugo gains 25 HP back, unless he's at full health in which case your semantic scare mongering kinda goes... poof. It's not the end of the world that he recovers 25 HP and you can fight your way back if you get backup from your team. There are also far worse boogeymen in this category like Shaman that rips you for 30 damage and she gets back 30 HP - in a gank she can land bleed on you from her teammates GB attempts even if you counter GBed. But that's generally considered acceptable nowadays. Need I again mention Raider, Lawbro and Shin? You know, the lads that can pin you down while the entire team wallops on you for 100% of your health pool... because you know, that's fair and balanced and we don't need to talk about it #OkHand



I have another thread called please nerf warden shoulder bash, as a rep 70 warden I say its silly, broken, and shouldn't exist like it does.

The fact is all the characters you listed have flaws -
Because Shugoki has no flaws, right? It's not like he has a 2 second recovery after whiffed hug or a useless headbutt.



highlander hits hard however has no guard when doing so and has a fraction of shugos HP & hitting hard is his thing...
Because in a proper gank scenario Highlander really needs his guard up instead of threatening via his spacing and coming in only for the massive punish that his teammate should be setting up for him.



Nubo's top heavy isnt exactly landing 24/7, its easy to dodge, has no softfeint and isnt unblockable.
Because it's not like a Shaman/PK, Nobushi gank exists right? She may not be landing it as often as Shugo hug but when she gets it with bleed on top it can be felt dude.


Vort/JJ got nerfed because it was an issue that needed addressing,
They both still do decent damage and JJ can still come flying in with Unblockables. Post nerfs they still don't have much of an issue in 4v4 ganks. Their issues lie elsewhere.


Shinobi is a glass cannon, while hitting hard cannot take it in return (a few heavies and its lights out),
Because Shinobi's freely offer themselves up to you when you're outnumbered by their teammates right? They totally don't have the option of engaging their brain and instead staying out of range to hassle you with big damage ranged GBs while you're worrying about their teammates.


aramusha lacks openers, his allguard/counters are generally his way in,
An opener is not a necessity nor a requirement for a gank. He has high damage heavies that can be played in smartly with just a bit of coordination as to what his teammate is doing and he does have an unblockable zone. He has much less utility and less ability to threaten than Shugo but he is no slouch in the damage department if the gankers are well coordinated.


cent funnily enough cant stop a shugos HA with a fully charged stab, nor can he knock the shugo down from lvl 2 feat onwards.... also cant wall splat :) EDIT literally just had a game where the shugo realised he has stuffed up so just hit light & poof, perfectly timed full charge cent stab into a flat foot shugo was all gone
And he can't do the same to Aramusha with the same feat. That's on Ubi for creating a feat that nullifies Centurion's entire reason for existing in the game. Everybody else can fall prey to a knockdown from the Roman boy, which is none too shabby in the damage department. Gonna be some fun times when Cent's rework gives him feintable unblockables too.



EDIT; one proposed change would be is if his hug hits a friendly, he picks them up instead (no damage, just animation) - kinda like a shinobi GB his friend and pulling them back but a tad worse given the shugos ability to tank punishment (and therefor punishes)
Not gonna lie that would be hilarious. Especially if he puts his teammate down gently and pats them on the head :)

Vakris_One
03-19-2019, 06:33 PM
None of the heroes you mention have the same type of move as shuho, not good comparisons, I already stated the difference with LB, Raider and Shinobi. If you're being ganked a shinobi can't land ranged GB, everything interrupts it. With LBs running charge, block right and he's basically at critical stamina, parry it and he's OOS.

No other hero has a soft feint from neutral that CC's damages, heals, and throws an enemy to the ground for more free damage in ganks, the only option is a dodge. Theres no comparison. Also you compare it to Raiders shoulder carry as something that is just as bad, yet his move is getting nerfed upon his rework because of this.
How many Lawbringers do you meet that charge you head on straight into a free parry? I would like some of your matchmaking please because my ones are always disengaging when they have a teammate around and start fishing for that long arm right up between the cheeks :)

Shinobi's as well; I don't think you've met ones that were possessed of a functioning brain or just ones that were surrounded by inconsiderate teammates. Still, even just spamming ranged GBs hoping for the best is zero risk to the Shinobi with massive damage as the reward if he actually lands one by luck. He even gets up faster than Shugoki recovers from a hug if he gets counter GBed, take that as you will.

Shugoki already got his rework and they already made the hug conform to the new parameters that they want for CC moves in a gank. If I understand correctly your issue isn't so much with the damage or length of the hug's CC as it is with the ease of which the hug can be soft feinted into. Wait until they give Centurion feintable unblockables, that'll really set the forum alight.



I'm not saying I have a solution to this that won't ruin him in 1v1, but at the very least he should have heavy stamina drain off of a whiff, I just think the risk vs reward isn't balanced on this move.
He has a normal stamina consumption for a whiff. If we are to assume the whiff recovery is intended (and not an accident) then I guess the devs have opted to go more for a recovery time risk than for a stamina drain risk. Your suggestion would affect him negatively in 1v1. I would suggest that if you want a heavy stamina drain for a whiff then his recovery time needs to be reduced. Since both you and Sweaty Sock are of the opinion that his recovery time is not a factor in a gank then would you be fine with his recovery time being reduced in favour of upping his stamina consumption on a whiff?

The_B0G_
03-19-2019, 06:51 PM
How many Lawbringers do you meet that charge you head on straight into a free parry? I would like some of your matchmaking please because my ones are always disengaging when they have a teammate around and start fishing for that long arm right up between the cheeks :)

Shinobi's as well; I don't think you've met ones that were possessed of a functioning brain or just ones that were surrounded by inconsiderate teammates. Still, even just spamming ranged GBs hoping for the best is zero risk to the Shinobi with massive damage as the reward if he actually lands one by luck. He even gets up faster than Shugoki recovers from a hug if he gets counter GBed, take that as you will.

Shugoki already got his rework and they already made the hug conform to the new parameters that they want for CC moves in a gank. If I understand correctly your issue isn't so much with the damage or length of the hug's CC as it is with the ease of which the hug can be soft feinted into. Wait until they give Centurion feintable unblockables, that'll really set the forum alight.


He has a normal stamina consumption for a whiff. If we are to assume the whiff recovery is intended (and not an accident) then I guess the devs have opted to go more for a recovery time risk than for a stamina drain risk. Your suggestion would affect him negatively in 1v1. I would suggest that if you want a heavy stamina drain for a whiff then his recovery time needs to be reduced. Since both you and Sweaty Sock are of the opinion that his recovery time is not a factor in a gank then would you be fine with his recovery time being reduced in favour of upping his stamina consumption on a whiff?

You're side stepping my point, LB or Shinobi do not have the same type of move, they aren't comparable. LB is total CC, it gives a heavy if no one touches him, the longarm itself does no damage, and like I said before it's wayyyy more telegraphed than shugs hug, it also doesn't heal him.

Shinobi in a gank, cannot get a GB if you're either attacking or even blocking or parrying, you need to be neutral in order for him to land his ranged GB cutscene. Again, this is not a comparable move. Shugoki can do his at any time, and will move right through his teammates to get you if they are in between both of you, it doesn't matter what state you're in either, I've even dodged it and he turned 90 degree from his start up and still got me.

As far as your last paragraph goes, the recovery time being reduced would just allow him to spam this move even faster, so that's not an ideal solution. If his stamina drain was high enough on the move so he couldn't do it twice without waiting to recover his lost stamina if he whiffed, I could be happy with that, as long as he was still able to be punished in a 1v1 situation as well.

Erhanninja
03-19-2019, 08:01 PM
Now I dont know what exactly rework has been done with Shugoki so let me put it out there.

I absolutely love this game so I came back to play after many months hoping things will get fixed.

Its appalling one word. All I see these new vertigo whatever bash slash bash slash. Didn't we have enough of this kind of stuff already?

Anyway back to Shugo. I understand he needed a rework but this? Developers are you having a laugh? Go play against a Shugo in Dom. It's pure abuse. Who taught it was a good idea to give soft feint into hug while people complaining for years we dont want instant death moves like raider grab or Shinobi GB so they go make it even easier. That stuff is nearly impossible to dodge. Get grabbed over and over. I mean I bloody land a heavy during his run still he grabs me wth..he should at least lose HA during the move coz its unstable. I dont even see his health dropping after my heavies. This is my one and only message here I'm deleting this game again. All the best.

Vakris_One
03-19-2019, 08:39 PM
You're side stepping my point, LB or Shinobi do not have the same type of move, they aren't comparable.
Bog, they may not be comparable as they are not comparable to each other either if you really want to get technical but the point is they exist and they are far more effective per hit than a Shugoki hug is per hit. Shugo can get you more often but they can one-shot you on a single well timed hit. If you ask me which one of those is OP I will always settle on the one that's a one-hit KO. You may not agree and that's fine.



LB is total CC, it gives a heavy if no one touches him, the longarm itself does no damage, and like I said before it's wayyyy more telegraphed than shugs hug, it also doesn't heal him.
Wayyyy more telegraphed from what exactly Bog? From him doing it in your face as you sit there staring him down? No adequate LB would ever rush at you from an angle that is super obvious like that in a gank. Whereas Shugo at least has to do it generally within your field of view. If something is happening from off-screen then it can't be considered telegraphed. What you're talking about is a 1v1 situation.

Also you're wrong about the single heavy. It gives as many heavies as you can throw at his hapless victim before he releases him. It can ledge from halfway across the map (One hit KO, gg). It wallsplates (also from a long distance) which then guarrantees a LB pancake flip into a lot of damage from a gank. And he gets it from a heavy parry. Just about the only thing this move doesn't do is heal him.

Let's be honest here, the only reason there's complaining about Shugoki's hug now is because he's a viable mind game character now whereas LB, Raider and Shin are mostly crippled one tricks crutching on outdated broken mechanics and people give them a free pass because they're considered low tier in everything else outside 4v4s.



Shinobi in a gank, cannot get a GB if you're either attacking or even blocking or parrying, you need to be neutral in order for him to land his ranged GB cutscene. Again, this is not a comparable move. Shugoki can do his at any time, and will move right through his teammates to get you if they are in between both of you, it doesn't matter what state you're in either, I've even dodged it and he turned 90 degree from his start up and still got me.
The same argument of one-hit KO versus better tracking but much lower damage meaning he has to do it more often to kill you. So pick your poison because the developers only know these two tricks. The 3rd option is a gimped Shugoki which I would hope nobody here is looking for.



As far as your last paragraph goes, the recovery time being reduced would just allow him to spam this move even faster, so that's not an ideal solution. If his stamina drain was high enough on the move so he couldn't do it twice without waiting to recover his lost stamina if he whiffed, I could be happy with that, as long as he was still able to be punished in a 1v1 situation as well.
In a perfect world it would drain enough stamina on a whif so he couldn't immediately go into it more than 2 times without putting himself into OOS. And the recovery would just be a normal recovery, i.e. same GB vulnerability window as a wiffed attack. Sound fair enough?

Knight_Raime
03-19-2019, 08:58 PM
I dont think Shugo should have HA on opening lights. It effectively shuts down all other offense. All he has to do is light attack whenever his opponent does anything, and he will worst case trade lights, best case interrupt a gb, feint, heavy, or bash. I have fought people like this too.

They are 500ms lights and the armor comes in at 300ms iirc. You can't use it to reactionary trade with other lights (barring the few 600ms ones still here) let alone strong mix ups on reaction. And if that's what the goki sticks to doing it's free parries.

The best that can be said is that it makes goki slightly safer to interrupt mix ups when he's being ganked. Which is done on a read anyway.

Velentix
03-20-2019, 04:12 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YYcnoBQ8xw

This is something I did pretty easily, and I by no means have great reaction speed. I suspect its harder against reflex guard heroes, but against static guard you don't have to react to the red indicator of an attack, you react to the guard disappearing. Granted this is under ideal conditions for the shugomama, but I was able to react to 90% of the most basic moves regularly. good luck parrying that.

Sweaty_Sock
03-20-2019, 07:57 AM
Thanks for the footage Velentix, this is exactly what many shugo i've been running into are doing, also with some characters the feint window isnt enough to get back in time to punish them without crushing counters

Vakris_One - nerfing shugo doesnt mean reducing range, halving stamina & making heavies do 3 damage. It can be indirect, like i said before making him interfere with teammates more on his hug (example was he can accidentally pickup his allies, meaning as the person being ganked you can at least try keep one opponent between you and the goku to help defend against this), another would be to just have the goki knock down allies he runs through. Nothing wrong with making someone ganking have to act with some intelligence/skill

Another thing would be to look at his perks/feats - hes already tanky, does he need access to 10% damage reduction on a point, hard as nails, immunity to knockdown, & access to vengeful barrier for a shield off revenge?

You can beat a goki with time & spacing, however in dominion these can be lacking when ganked and the effeciency of the Goki at ganking, anti ganking & even in dueling means he's dominating more than any of the other characters you refer to (they are not perfect and I agree with issues you've flagged like raider tackle - however raiders arn't dominating 4's like the shugoki, that's why i'm taking aim at him)

Vendelkin
03-20-2019, 08:43 AM
First off lets just make my position simple by saying I'm with Vakris on this one.

That footage from velentix is not as telling as you'd think at first glance.. Why? because yes you can light heavy armor through a lot. but throwing out lights on reaction to everything loses dmg wise for the most part and is easy easy parry bait for any good level player even on console. As an aramusha it's extremely easy to beat shugokis that just spam their light, and presumably many others.

Additionally his grab can be rolled. Additionally if you don't want to fight him you can just back walk (unless your a musha who moves like a.... well he just doesn't move backwards) When a Shugo gets a hug on you it's because you engaged with him or had to remove him from a point. he has a strong tool because he cant freaking move anywhere.

After the update I got destroyed by him in duels for awhile, then I shoved myself into the training arena with a lvl 3 bot shugo and fought him until I had more kills than deaths, without using dodge roll, by 10.
I died 11 times before I got my first kill (resetting to max hp on kill) I probably totaled about 120 kills and 110 deaths with my negative kill count ratio at 17 in his favor at one point. So yeah it took some serious work to get there, but in the end... he isn't that bad. I then repeated this process with a friend who tried many tactics and is good at the game and my ratio was solidly above him the whole time.

My point being. Practice against him. The hug is react able. In ganks hes only bad if you let yourself get into a 1 v 2 with him as a second. in 3v3 anyone can easily nip him out of his grabs and save you, and using it playing as shugoki in an anti gank 1v2 or 1v3 is suicide as you'll get eaten while trying to hurt the person (unless in revenge, which still usually ends up with you dead if the gankers are competent)

Velentix's video is deceiving because it negates the nature of choice based reaction. he is ready to just throw out the light for an experiment no matter what the stigma. In actual gameplay ever throwing two lights in succession like that from the same side will get you parried. And if you play a hero with hyper armor as well on an opener then you have no issue because your trade is higher than the shugoks light in almost all cases. Its 15 dmg.

The risk that comes with going for a shugo hug is WAY higher than the risk of a Shaman bite. The dmg of a shugo hug with proper ganks is LOWER than raiders, LBs, or Shinobi. And YES to a lot of peoples surprise you do also have to time it! or you get hit out of it by your friends, your enemies or you bounce of due to someone else gb bouncing you at the same time. Yet failing it once during a fight (especially if surrounded by pikemen) is a death wish. Heck succeeding when the enemy has pikeman is a death wish due to mass poking during the hug ending up as a net loss. And also shugoki can't really offscreen surprise you unless hes being extremely slow in his deliberate sneaky approach (admitting tho I do this a lot)

My big point for why his gameplay is very viable and very balanced is the choice to fight the shugoki is always in the hands of the non-shugoki. You can wait for pikeman to show up, you can wait for friends. you can run to the healing zone half way through. and even with out all of that combined his move is still entirely re-actable if you are ready and trained for it (to not dodge early and instead react to whatever he feints into) and has a HUGE punish for him on miss. if he misses it in a gank. you are back to a 1v1 for a bit and can re position if needed. If used Solo you get a massive punish of your choosing even in some cases if you dodge roll. I mean literally if you dodge roll early enough and the shugoki is stupid enough to have input it already you can GB him even after your dodge roll recovery.

I get that he is super hard to play against if you haven't practiced fighting him specifically, but there is absolutely nothing in his kit that is OP. Especially when compared to other metrics for OP. And even then when compared to other metrics that apparently people are okay with (like raiders freaking ridiculous GB). A raiders GB is far more of a death sentence in 4v4 than shugokis hug, and theres barely any punishment if you CGB him.

Sweaty_Sock
03-20-2019, 09:08 AM
Vendelkin those other attacks don't carry hyper armour meaning you (or their own swinging team mate) can target switch & light attack

Edit: I get his moves, his timing, I can smash him in duels (skill dependent obviously). The HA & tracking combo on that hug coupled with the fact it could be an unblockable is too overbearing in a gank.

Please read what i'm suggesting regarding nerfs its just above your post

Edit: if he's parked on an objective then yes, you do have to fight him (or god forbid 4 of him)

The_B0G_
03-20-2019, 10:47 AM
Bog, they may not be comparable as they are not comparable to each other either if you really want to get technical but the point is they exist and they are far more effective per hit than a Shugoki hug is per hit. Shugo can get you more often but they can one-shot you on a single well timed hit. If you ask me which one of those is OP I will always settle on the one that's a one-hit KO. You may not agree and that's fine.


Wayyyy more telegraphed from what exactly Bog? From him doing it in your face as you sit there staring him down? No adequate LB would ever rush at you from an angle that is super obvious like that in a gank. Whereas Shugo at least has to do it generally within your field of view. If something is happening from off-screen then it can't be considered telegraphed. What you're talking about is a 1v1 situation.

Also you're wrong about the single heavy. It gives as many heavies as you can throw at his hapless victim before he releases him. It can ledge from halfway across the map (One hit KO, gg). It wallsplates (also from a long distance) which then guarrantees a LB pancake flip into a lot of damage from a gank. And he gets it from a heavy parry. Just about the only thing this move doesn't do is heal him.

Let's be honest here, the only reason there's complaining about Shugoki's hug now is because he's a viable mind game character now whereas LB, Raider and Shin are mostly crippled one tricks crutching on outdated broken mechanics and people give them a free pass because they're considered low tier in everything else outside 4v4s.


The same argument of one-hit KO versus better tracking but much lower damage meaning he has to do it more often to kill you. So pick your poison because the developers only know these two tricks. The 3rd option is a gimped Shugoki which I would hope nobody here is looking for.


In a perfect world it would drain enough stamina on a whif so he couldn't immediately go into it more than 2 times without putting himself into OOS. And the recovery would just be a normal recovery, i.e. same GB vulnerability window as a wiffed attack. Sound fair enough?

Like I've said multiple times, they aren't comparable, saying it over and over isn't going to make them comparable, I already stated how they aren't comparable, I'm not addressing this again after this.

Landing a ranged gb with shinobi in a gank is no where near as easy as the shugoki hug, if you're blocking, parrying or attacking or even just being hit, a GB won't work, but a shugoki hug ignores all these things and can travel through his teammates to grab you, they are not comparable.

LB is way more telegraphed because it doesn't come from a soft feint and can't be cancelled, once you see him start up his animation, it's going through, he even gives it away with his catchphrase. It's rare to even see an LB use longarm.

Also in your paragraph you're referencing two seperate LB moves like they are one, block right or whichever direction he's charging from in a gank and you block his charge and leave him critically low on stamina, if he does anything after that besides sit and wait he's OOS, this doesn't happen on a shugoki whiff, and the shugoki hug isn't blockable or parryable either.

If we're going to "be honest here" shugoki has super easy access to a move that the only moves you can think to compare to are some of the most OP/broken moves lower tier characters have for ganking, only his move is superior in about every way in ganks. As soon as the back cracking part happens where he regains health, everyone around can attack, before he even hits the ground.

In my opinion they should have scrapped the Demons Embrace when they reworked him. It's much worse now than it ever was, even with the one hit kill when he was in critical health.

Siegfried-Z
03-20-2019, 10:52 AM
Well on my side i dont really know what to think about Shugo.
I think he is very annoying now with his HA on everything and insane hug tracking.
Also, in my opinion he can feint his UB wayy too late. It is like the UB is almost on you and then he goes for the sweep, this is crazy.

BUT ! ^^
Because there is a but, Shugo can be highly punished on a miss. His headbutt can be dodge into GB and his Hug guaranteed any top heavy in the game .. that's crazy.
I would add that to me Shugo is a bit like HL now. Against someone who doesn't have a good dodge attack he is strong, against another one with good one he is weak.
I have a hard time against him with my Musha, glad or Shaolin for example but usually i am doing Well with my Kensei or Shinobi.

But To me, his recovery on a miss should be smaller and in another hand his tracking should be reduced (i've already been catched many times while rolling back. ...).
His feint window should be smaller too.

Knight_Raime
03-20-2019, 11:23 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YYcnoBQ8xw

This is something I did pretty easily, and I by no means have great reaction speed. I suspect its harder against reflex guard heroes, but against static guard you don't have to react to the red indicator of an attack, you react to the guard disappearing. Granted this is under ideal conditions for the shugomama, but I was able to react to 90% of the most basic moves regularly. good luck parrying that.

You're not reacting to an attack by looking at that. You're reacting to the character attempting to perform an action. This is very easily baited and parried. it's a 500ms attack. It's not hard to parry. Perhaps at your level of play this "works." Try performing that against actually decent players.

Sweaty_Sock
03-20-2019, 11:29 AM
You're not reacting to an attack by looking at that. You're reacting to the character attempting to perform an action. This is very easily baited and parried. it's a 500ms attack. It's not hard to parry. Perhaps at your level of play this "works." Try performing that against actually decent players.

Mix the odd GB in there and your feint into parry is now a wallsplat hug...

Try that in console as well, its far from easy to bait, get guard back & parry

Knight_Raime
03-20-2019, 11:40 AM
Like I've said multiple times, they aren't comparable, saying it over and over isn't going to make them comparable, I already stated how they aren't comparable, I'm not addressing this again after this.

Landing a ranged gb with shinobi in a gank is no where near as easy as the shugoki hug, if you're blocking, parrying or attacking or even just being hit, a GB won't work, but a shugoki hug ignores all these things and can travel through his teammates to grab you, they are not comparable.

LB is way more telegraphed because it doesn't come from a soft feint and can't be cancelled, once you see him start up his animation, it's going through, he even gives it away with his catchphrase. It's rare to even see an LB use longarm.

Also in your paragraph you're referencing two seperate LB moves like they are one, block right or whichever direction he's charging from in a gank and you block his charge and leave him critically low on stamina, if he does anything after that besides sit and wait he's OOS, this doesn't happen on a shugoki whiff, and the shugoki hug isn't blockable or parryable either.

If we're going to "be honest here" shugoki has super easy access to a move that the only moves you can think to compare to are some of the most OP/broken moves lower tier characters have for ganking, only his move is superior in about every way in ganks. As soon as the back cracking part happens where he regains health, everyone around can attack, before he even hits the ground.

In my opinion they should have scrapped the Demons Embrace when they reworked him. It's much worse now than it ever was, even with the one hit kill when he was in critical health.

"it's much worse now than it ever was." Come on Bog, now you're just being silly.

In an optimal gank situation telegraphing matters little. Long arm/inpale will always land. Same with Shinobi's ranged GB. Same with Goki's hug.
If we're looking at best possible outcome here long arm/inpale is strictly better than hug. And shinobi's ranged GB is situationally better.
Both of LB's moves can be accessed off of him parrying and both (afaik) do not apply damage reduction to the opponent being effected. Unlike every other move barring Bullwark counter.
Shinobi's is situationally better because his ranged GB can still grab someone who's immune to GB's during revenge. The only advantage goki's hug gives is how often it can be attempted.

Old goki hug was much better for ganking potentials. He had super armor. Which allowed him to face tank things for easier setups for his allies. His old hug held enemies for longer as well. Now goki throws him off quicker and can be interrupted. You could also grab someone to stall revenge activation. And of course it could OHK. The only two improvements he gained as far as 4's go with his kit is a more reliable trade tool and the ability to threaten with an unblockable of somekind. Both of which are good things yes.

Unfortunately though Goki's hug/unblockable heavy can be entirely avoided on one time with a roll. And actually IIRC you can dodge into unlock roll and even punish his whiffed hug due to it's absurdly long recovery time. I'm also pretty sure they kept the same recovery times for his heavies. Which are also insanely long. Goki's new "viability" still has substantial risk both with his hug and his other advantages. Far more risk than a lot of top tier 4's heros.

Goki needs buffs. Not nerfs.

Knight_Raime
03-20-2019, 11:42 AM
Mix the odd GB in there and your feint into parry is now a wallsplat hug...

Try that in console as well, its far from easy to bait, get guard back & parry

You're just moving the goal post at this point. Yes, if you actually start to play like a smart player than trying to deal with someone who goes for interrupts becomes harder.
That doesn't change how reactable and baitable trades are when facing Goki. I played console for most of my for honor experience. I was just fine.

Sweaty_Sock
03-20-2019, 11:59 AM
You're just moving the goal post at this point. Yes, if you actually start to play like a smart player than trying to deal with someone who goes for interrupts becomes harder.
That doesn't change how reactable and baitable trades are when facing Goki. I played console for most of my for honor experience. I was just fine.

The faster attack speeds weren't around back then, neither was goki, and to be honest its rather arrogant to assume you are at a level so far removed from my own that I can't even talk from person current experience without being dismissed out of hand

IF YOU READ WHAT I WAS ASKING FOR REGARDING NERFS I NEVER MENTIONED THE LIGHT JUST SAYING ITS A VERY POWERFUL TOOL/OPTION HE CAN CHOOSE TO USE OR NOT

EXERT below re: what I was actually wanting...

"nerfing shugo doesnt mean reducing range, halving stamina & making heavies do 3 damage. It can be indirect, like i said before making him interfere with teammates more on his hug (example was he can accidentally pickup his allies, meaning as the person being ganked you can at least try keep one opponent between you and the goku to help defend against this), another would be to just have the goki knock down allies he runs through. Nothing wrong with making someone ganking have to act with some intelligence/skill

Another thing would be to look at his perks/feats - hes already tanky, does he need access to 10% damage reduction on a point, hard as nails, immunity to knockdown, & access to vengeful barrier for a shield off revenge?"

The_B0G_
03-20-2019, 01:49 PM
"it's much worse now than it ever was." Come on Bog, now you're just being silly.

In an optimal gank situation telegraphing matters little. Long arm/inpale will always land. Same with Shinobi's ranged GB. Same with Goki's hug.
If we're looking at best possible outcome here long arm/inpale is strictly better than hug. And shinobi's ranged GB is situationally better.
Both of LB's moves can be accessed off of him parrying and both (afaik) do not apply damage reduction to the opponent being effected. Unlike every other move barring Bullwark counter.
Shinobi's is situationally better because his ranged GB can still grab someone who's immune to GB's during revenge. The only advantage goki's hug gives is how often it can be attempted.

Old goki hug was much better for ganking potentials. He had super armor. Which allowed him to face tank things for easier setups for his allies. His old hug held enemies for longer as well. Now goki throws him off quicker and can be interrupted. You could also grab someone to stall revenge activation. And of course it could OHK. The only two improvements he gained as far as 4's go with his kit is a more reliable trade tool and the ability to threaten with an unblockable of somekind. Both of which are good things yes.

Unfortunately though Goki's hug/unblockable heavy can be entirely avoided on one time with a roll. And actually IIRC you can dodge into unlock roll and even punish his whiffed hug due to it's absurdly long recovery time. I'm also pretty sure they kept the same recovery times for his heavies. Which are also insanely long. Goki's new "viability" still has substantial risk both with his hug and his other advantages. Far more risk than a lot of top tier 4's heros.

Goki needs buffs. Not nerfs.

How is calling it much worse being silly? To me it is much worse, I rarely ever got caught with his hug before, only after a wall splat 95% of thr time, even in ganks, now I get caught pretty often with it and before on a whiff, he lost quite a bit of health, now he loses nothing, so again, how is it silly to say its much worse? In my opinion it is. It's harder to react to and less risky now.

Again you guys are comparing a combination of LBs moves to compare with this one move, and longarm/impale always landing? not in my matches.

Anyway, we're obviously not going to agree on this, it's pointless to debate this further.

Knight_Raime
03-20-2019, 09:00 PM
The faster attack speeds weren't around back then, neither was goki, and to be honest its rather arrogant to assume you are at a level so far removed from my own that I can't even talk from person current experience without being dismissed out of hand

IF YOU READ WHAT I WAS ASKING FOR REGARDING NERFS I NEVER MENTIONED THE LIGHT JUST SAYING ITS A VERY POWERFUL TOOL/OPTION HE CAN CHOOSE TO USE OR NOT

EXERT below re: what I was actually wanting...

"nerfing shugo doesnt mean reducing range, halving stamina & making heavies do 3 damage. It can be indirect, like i said before making him interfere with teammates more on his hug (example was he can accidentally pickup his allies, meaning as the person being ganked you can at least try keep one opponent between you and the goku to help defend against this), another would be to just have the goki knock down allies he runs through. Nothing wrong with making someone ganking have to act with some intelligence/skill

Another thing would be to look at his perks/feats - hes already tanky, does he need access to 10% damage reduction on a point, hard as nails, immunity to knockdown, & access to vengeful barrier for a shield off revenge?"

So my prior statement to you was not speaking about your skill at all. The "you" in my prior statement is the royal you. Meaning it's all inclusive. It was not an attack on your performance. It was a statement that directly shuts down your "counter point" about what I had said before. Because said statement you made doesn't actually disprove my claim (that being it's fairly reactable and it can't be used to trade with strong mix ups/option selects.) Instead it just approaches the same point that was already being made. Just slightly different, hence "moving the goal post."

Second, I'm not dismissing yours or bogs or any other person's feelings here. If I was being dismissive I would focus on how different our experiences are rather than explaining why I believe things are the way they are. If you want to call me arrogant because I speak from a higher players perspective that's fine. I've been here a long time. I've been with the game a long time. I've probably had more opportunities to play with different experiences of for honor than most here (talking different platforms and setups) and I not only converse with some of the best players of the game but i've played against people who often play against them. (sadly due to how little I play these days I haven't actually fought a competitive approved player yet.) To be brief I know I have bias. But I believe my "arrogance" is some what deserved given I do understand the game at a better level than most of the populace. This doesn't mean I believe my opinions are facts by the way.

Third, i'm not dismissing how good of an interrupt tool Goki's opening light is. I was merely stating that you can't default to it. It doesn't have any quality to it that makes it safe to spam. And what it leads into is a mix up that can just be rolled away from. It's not as threatening as say Black prior's bashes. Finally, I did read this already. My statement stands. Goki is in no place to be nerfed. Not unless his current problems are addressed and he becomes better elsewhere. If Goki's rework had suddenly made him the best 4v4 pick maybe. Heck if he even became the best ganker then maybe. But neither happened. And he's so far and removed from actually great 4v4 picks that putting forth the notion that he's even close to being strong is a statement worthy of side eyeing.

Knight_Raime
03-20-2019, 09:14 PM
How is calling it much worse being silly? To me it is much worse, I rarely ever got caught with his hug before, only after a wall splat 95% of thr time, even in ganks, now I get caught pretty often with it and before on a whiff, he lost quite a bit of health, now he loses nothing, so again, how is it silly to say its much worse? In my opinion it is. It's harder to react to and less risky now.

Again you guys are comparing a combination of LBs moves to compare with this one move, and longarm/impale always landing? not in my matches.

Anyway, we're obviously not going to agree on this, it's pointless to debate this further.

That could easily be explained by a few things. Goki's relied on waiting for their armor to do much of anything. Goki is more prevalent now due to him being reworked at all. etc. As far as I know the tracking was not buffed in the slightest. it "technically" got faster because of the change in speed on his heavies. (faster heavy meaning soft feint window is smaller thus you use it sooner.) I would chalk up the "harder to react to" statement up to you perhaps not getting familiar with new goki. At least old Goki's DE could be done from neutral and potentially had super armor. New Goki has to do it from a soft feint. Which in my opinion makes it far more obvious. It's also not less risky. He has the same whiff recovery as he did pre rework. Not having the self damage on top of it doesn't suddenly make it a free move to spam.

I try to avoid commenting on people's personal experiences. I usually speak in spread sheet. Because that kind of play is possible in for honor and is very attainable. In an optimal gank "will it land" is really only considered when you use specific setups. Like you might not use the same gank tool on a GB setup that you might use on a hitstun setup. Which is why what is focused on is what said gank tool offers. Hence the comparison between LB, Shin's ranged GB, and goki's hug is being made.

It's rather difficult to convey the position I have because I know that most people play pub 4's. And it's usually not the case even in a full team that proper ganking is being done. It's a vastly different experience. Faraam is a great content creator that majorally shows him anti gank spanking. Those experiences he shares can be compared to what most of the community deals with in 4's as far as ganks go for the most part.

I'd be perfectly fine with adjusting Shugoki again. So long as he's properly compensated for whatever nerf(s) you propose. He's not an S tier hero that could be brought down a peg or two and be able to walk it off. So JUST nerfing him is not acceptable to me.

The_B0G_
03-20-2019, 10:33 PM
That could easily be explained by a few things. Goki's relied on waiting for their armor to do much of anything. Goki is more prevalent now due to him being reworked at all. etc. As far as I know the tracking was not buffed in the slightest. it "technically" got faster because of the change in speed on his heavies. (faster heavy meaning soft feint window is smaller thus you use it sooner.) I would chalk up the "harder to react to" statement up to you perhaps not getting familiar with new goki. At least old Goki's DE could be done from neutral and potentially had super armor. New Goki has to do it from a soft feint. Which in my opinion makes it far more obvious. It's also not less risky. He has the same whiff recovery as he did pre rework. Not having the self damage on top of it doesn't suddenly make it a free move to spam.

I try to avoid commenting on people's personal experiences. I usually speak in spread sheet. Because that kind of play is possible in for honor and is very attainable. In an optimal gank "will it land" is really only considered when you use specific setups. Like you might not use the same gank tool on a GB setup that you might use on a hitstun setup. Which is why what is focused on is what said gank tool offers. Hence the comparison between LB, Shin's ranged GB, and goki's hug is being made.

It's rather difficult to convey the position I have because I know that most people play pub 4's. And it's usually not the case even in a full team that proper ganking is being done. It's a vastly different experience. Faraam is a great content creator that majorally shows him anti gank spanking. Those experiences he shares can be compared to what most of the community deals with in 4's as far as ganks go for the most part.

I'd be perfectly fine with adjusting Shugoki again. So long as he's properly compensated for whatever nerf(s) you propose. He's not an S tier hero that could be brought down a peg or two and be able to walk it off. So JUST nerfing him is not acceptable to me.

Well to me, when it was coming from neutral it was very easy to react to and I would only get caught when I was being aggressive and using risky attacks, even in ganks it was fairly easy to dodge it, and you didn't even have to hit him, just dodging his hug hurt him.

Now you have to keep close watch on him while being ganked, because it's either a charged unblockable heavy, or bam it's a hug.

You consider a soft feint that comes from an unblockable heavy as being an easier read than Shugoki's old from neutral hug? I'm talking about in 4v4 too, I don't find it unfair in 1v1, I just think it's a little much in ganks.

I'd be totally fine with a give and get as far as balancing it, it's just I think that in ganking situations it's easily accessible and not easy to read while other people are attacking you, if it lands, you're mostly screwed if not killed before you hit the ground, and he gets a heal from it.

If you dodge it, you're just right back where you started, and he's going to keep trying until you slip up, or can't react. I'm not sure how they would fix it, I'm sure increasing stamina consumption on a whiff would mess him up for those 100 top players.

Velentix
03-21-2019, 02:56 AM
Vendelkin: "Velentix's video is deceiving because it negates the nature of choice based reaction. he is ready to just throw out the light for an experiment no matter what the stigma. In actual gameplay ever throwing two lights in succession like that from the same side will get you parried. And if you play a hero with hyper armor as well on an opener then you have no issue because your trade is higher than the shugoks light in almost all cases. Its 15 dmg."

The point of the video was to prove that you can use Shugo's light to effectively end most static guard heros' offensive options, the direction the light attack is coming from is immaterial to the argument, because he doesn't have to react to any red indicators, he just reacts to the guard disappearing. obviously the people I've played against moved their guard around; throwing lights like that, and moving your guard aren't mutually exclusive. while damage difference is worthy of note, when shugo's I've vsed used this strategy they did while blocking an entrance to a zone, so they get healed at the same time. Since they could interrupt my bashes/gbs, I couldn't move the shugo back into the zone, or throw him out of the zone. the other time they used the lights like this was to stall for time so that teamates could come gank. See using the light this way in a duel/deathmatch mode doesn't really bother me apart from it slowing the pace of the fight to a crawl. in an objective mode however it can be a bit much, especially if your team is breaking and you need to capture that zone. As far as other chars with HA on their lights, I don't think there are any (please correct me if I'm wrong), some have superior block but that's different.

Raime: "You're not reacting to an attack by looking at that. You're reacting to the character attempting to perform an action. This is very easily baited and parried. it's a 500ms attack. It's not hard to parry. Perhaps at your level of play this "works." Try performing that against actually decent players."

well first off I must say good job at putting words in my mouth, I never said that it was in reaction to any specific attack after you know what attack is coming. I listed them off precisely because I have precise reason for not liking HA'd lights in 4v4. as to that reason see my response to Vendelkin above. Secondly it's not easily baited or parried, because people don't only do that, of course they mix things up, and I never said that the people I fought who used this ability, exclusively used only lights like this to win the fight. again refer to my response to vendelkin. I personally would like to see proof about this being easily parried, I don't know off the top of my head the timing in ms for feints, but if you can parry it, the timing would have to be tight enough to be difficult because they are attacking before they even see your red indicator, while you still need to hard feint, guard change, and parry. I don't have anyone that I can test this out with, so I'll give you benefit of the doubt and assume that it is parryable but difficult. besides that, a lot of people actually do have trouble reacting fast enough parry lights, especially when you add in latency, just because you won the genetic lottery that gives you faster reaction speed than others, does not necessarily mean you're better than them. imo this game should be more about mindgames than reaction speed but thats just me.

As for your remarks about my level being below that of decent players....seriously? you've never even fought me (as far as I know) but your unmitigated arrogance as to your superiority over me is quite astounding. for all you know I might be one of these mythical "decent" players whose presence I am apparently unfit to be in.


Raime: "You're just moving the goal post at this point. Yes, if you actually start to play like a smart player than trying to deal with someone who goes for interrupts becomes harder.
That doesn't change how reactable and baitable trades are when facing Goki."

you said this in response to Sweaty_sock saying that if they mix in other stuff, it wouldn't be so easy to deal with. Sweaty isn't moving any goal posts, I never said that people exclusively use lights like that, it's not viable unless for certain larger than your fight strategy. Of course people will try other stuff in addition to the perk of shugo's interrupting lights, pretending otherwise is just an attempt to set up an easy target strawman argument. All I said is that I don't want Shugo to have HA on his lights, because its too effective at stopping most basic openers to a fight. plus other shugo players aren't stupid, once they know that you know what they are doing with the HA'd lights, they know your only course of action to keep fighting is a feint to try and parry. then they GB. That being said I do agree with you that if anything shugo needs buffs for 1v1, I think he could do with some more combos so he doesnt have to just keep hoping to get you with his charged heavy to hug/GB mix up.

Mizuki-Tomika
03-21-2019, 04:57 AM
I'm seriously thinking about taking over because of this cancer. I file a claim countless times to do something about the black prior. ALL EVERYONE DO is shield bash light hit. EVERYONE DO THAT. omf learn how to patch up a character to be balance. Oh wait this game isn't balance. You made it worse. You Jesus man don't you ever play OTHER games. Learn from them because you be like oh look we have a idea. Lets make this character while we get drunk. Ugh what the heck developers? Learn from your fan or so called fans

Sweaty_Sock
03-21-2019, 08:35 AM
To be brief I know I have bias. But I believe my "arrogance" is some what deserved given I do understand the game at a better level than most of the populace.


I don't look at stats because I don't think playing for stats is healthy for a game (people worrying about ratios generally look to abuse the most powerful or glitched things in a game) and personally I think some of my funnest games have been attempting to antigank against leaderboard listed players/premades (not to healthy for the K/D ratio but damn when you succeed in one of those it feels awesome)

But just for you I looked myself up - after coming back from a break for the entire marching fire season as per fhtracker my skill ranking for duel is still top 0.1%, 0.8% overall & funnily enough i'm ranked top 0.1% for shugo (probably because there were like three of us playing him pre-rework haha)

These stats also probably arn't helped either by the fact I go out of my way to main whatever people are blasting as 'the worst' character at the time (currently getting into PK)

This isn't some attempt to say i'm awesome more just to say I believe I have a passable knowledge of the game

now on point

Trying to take what everyone has said onboard for shugo below are my suggestions (feel free to shoot down or suggest your own)

1) remove hyperarmor on lights
2) change his passive(blocked lights don't stop chains) to turn instead all his lights into 'heavies' - do not enable execute however this would allow chain startup as existing and also allow his predictable lights to be thrown with less fear in higher tier duels while removing the hyperarmor light from neutral (leave hyper lights to zerk's chains & Kensei's softfeints)
3) make his hug stagger any friendly he clips through similar to a shinobi GB hitting an ally. This ends the move, however negates the 'whiff' window in favor of a slight disrupt to both players
4) undodgable property on zone

My other problems with him are more to do with the perk/feat system, but thats a problem for another day in another thread

Knight_Raime
03-21-2019, 10:57 AM
Well to me, when it was coming from neutral it was very easy to react to and I would only get caught when I was being aggressive and using risky attacks, even in ganks it was fairly easy to dodge it, and you didn't even have to hit him, just dodging his hug hurt him.

Now you have to keep close watch on him while being ganked, because it's either a charged unblockable heavy, or bam it's a hug.

You consider a soft feint that comes from an unblockable heavy as being an easier read than Shugoki's old from neutral hug? I'm talking about in 4v4 too, I don't find it unfair in 1v1, I just think it's a little much in ganks.

I'd be totally fine with a give and get as far as balancing it, it's just I think that in ganking situations it's easily accessible and not easy to read while other people are attacking you, if it lands, you're mostly screwed if not killed before you hit the ground, and he gets a heal from it.

If you dodge it, you're just right back where you started, and he's going to keep trying until you slip up, or can't react. I'm not sure how they would fix it, I'm sure increasing stamina consumption on a whiff would mess him up for those 100 top players.

Let me try to rephrase that particular statement with an example. Lets look at conq's forward bash versus Tiandi's palm strike. Tiandi's palm strike comes from neutral. There is no tell beforehand to signal that he's going to do it. Conq's bash comes from a dodge. So it's reasonable to assume that after a dodge he'll use it. Making it "easier" to react to. With Goki's rework his DE can only come from a soft feint. So when he starts up a heavy of any kind I can reasonably assume a hug is coming and prepare to dodge on time.

I would have to second Vakris's suggestion of increasing the stamina used on whiff as the proper nerf to it.

Knight_Raime
03-21-2019, 11:10 AM
Vendelkin: "Velentix's video is deceiving because it negates the nature of choice based reaction. he is ready to just throw out the light for an experiment no matter what the stigma. In actual gameplay ever throwing two lights in succession like that from the same side will get you parried. And if you play a hero with hyper armor as well on an opener then you have no issue because your trade is higher than the shugoks light in almost all cases. Its 15 dmg."

The point of the video was to prove that you can use Shugo's light to effectively end most static guard heros' offensive options, the direction the light attack is coming from is immaterial to the argument, because he doesn't have to react to any red indicators, he just reacts to the guard disappearing. obviously the people I've played against moved their guard around; throwing lights like that, and moving your guard aren't mutually exclusive. while damage difference is worthy of note, when shugo's I've vsed used this strategy they did while blocking an entrance to a zone, so they get healed at the same time. Since they could interrupt my bashes/gbs, I couldn't move the shugo back into the zone, or throw him out of the zone. the other time they used the lights like this was to stall for time so that teamates could come gank. See using the light this way in a duel/deathmatch mode doesn't really bother me apart from it slowing the pace of the fight to a crawl. in an objective mode however it can be a bit much, especially if your team is breaking and you need to capture that zone. As far as other chars with HA on their lights, I don't think there are any (please correct me if I'm wrong), some have superior block but that's different.

Raime: "You're not reacting to an attack by looking at that. You're reacting to the character attempting to perform an action. This is very easily baited and parried. it's a 500ms attack. It's not hard to parry. Perhaps at your level of play this "works." Try performing that against actually decent players."


Snipped to not have a major wall of text.

The way you worded your response when initially replying to me lead me to believe you were stating that you can use Goki to trade with other lights on reaction. Which is why I fired back with "you're not reacting to the light. You're reacting to movement and this can be easily baited and parried." Just FYI parries ignore guard switch timing. it's only actual attacks that get slammed with an additional time when switching. And that's only on static guard heros. And this is being fixed in season 10. So in theory this makes option selects even safer. I still challenge your statement about it shutting out offense. it's only a 500ms attack that has no soft feints or inherent properties to make it less safe to attempt to punish. 500ms based attacks are good interrupt tools. And the fact that he has armor on them makes them a bit easier to use interrupt wise.
But again. it's only 500ms. Even if we ignored reaction times here there is still an entire other weakness to goki's 500ms lights as far as trades go. Option selects.

Reaction times are 80% of what you need in order to be good at this game. the other 20% is matchup knowledge and the ability to consistently apply said knowledge. If your game sense is strong it can easily outweigh reaction times. But because this game is basic with little depth to it average fighter players such as myself get by just on those alone. Also random tangent but it's entirely possible for someone to improve their reaction time. Specifically their "choice" reaction time. Single action reaction time (aka how fast can you make a single input) is something that can't really be messed with much. But knowing match ups and characters well will improve your choice reaction time (aka presented with a mix up and being able to make the right call before something actually happens) which is what most of the reactionary play in a fighter is about.

And just to set the record straight I don't think i'm amazing at the game. I just happen to know a lot more about the game compared to the average player. Which immensely helps me get by even though my single action reaction time is pretty sub par.

Knight_Raime
03-21-2019, 11:20 AM
I don't look at stats because I don't think playing for stats is healthy for a game (people worrying about ratios generally look to abuse the most powerful or glitched things in a game) and personally I think some of my funnest games have been attempting to antigank against leaderboard listed players/premades (not to healthy for the K/D ratio but damn when you succeed in one of those it feels awesome)

But just for you I looked myself up - after coming back from a break for the entire marching fire season as per fhtracker my skill ranking for duel is still top 0.1%, 0.8% overall & funnily enough i'm ranked top 0.1% for shugo (probably because there were like three of us playing him pre-rework haha)

These stats also probably arn't helped either by the fact I go out of my way to main whatever people are blasting as 'the worst' character at the time (currently getting into PK)

This isn't some attempt to say i'm awesome more just to say I believe I have a passable knowledge of the game

now on point

Trying to take what everyone has said onboard for shugo below are my suggestions (feel free to shoot down or suggest your own)

1) remove hyperarmor on lights
2) change his passive(blocked lights don't stop chains) to turn instead all his lights into 'heavies' - do not enable execute however this would allow chain startup as existing and also allow his predictable lights to be thrown with less fear in higher tier duels while removing the hyperarmor light from neutral (leave hyper lights to zerk's chains & Kensei's softfeints)
3) make his hug stagger any friendly he clips through similar to a shinobi GB hitting an ally. This ends the move, however negates the 'whiff' window in favor of a slight disrupt to both players
4) undodgable property on zone

My other problems with him are more to do with the perk/feat system, but thats a problem for another day in another thread

For honor tracker has widely been ignored as a credible stat tracker for several months. So it's not really an accurate thing to go by.
If you are as knowledgable about the game as you say you are you should be able to answer a question pretty easily.
What exactly makes Berzerker's offense viable compared to Aramusha's?

1)No thank you. It's his basic tool that allows him to reasonably start some kind of offense in a team fight situation/gank situation without worrying over his massive recovery on basically every other move he has.

2)Don't see the point in doing this. A light parry punish is an appropriate risk for such a decent tool from neutral. I could maybe see you wanting to do this if his opening light didn't have armor. But I don't agree with that so.

3)I could only agree to this if the whiff recovery on his missed hug was shortened. Currently it's a full 2 seconds. Which allows for absurd damage punishes from the entire cast. It even allows someone who is OOS to get an untechable GB if they dodge it.

4)This would be one way to help deal with how people roll away from his mix ups. So i'd be for this. I'd also like his headbutt to be more useable. and his heavies to have less recovery.

The_B0G_
03-21-2019, 01:15 PM
Let me try to rephrase that particular statement with an example. Lets look at conq's forward bash versus Tiandi's palm strike. Tiandi's palm strike comes from neutral. There is no tell beforehand to signal that he's going to do it. Conq's bash comes from a dodge. So it's reasonable to assume that after a dodge he'll use it. Making it "easier" to react to. With Goki's rework his DE can only come from a soft feint. So when he starts up a heavy of any kind I can reasonably assume a hug is coming and prepare to dodge on time.

I would have to second Vakris's suggestion of increasing the stamina used on whiff as the proper nerf to it.

I would agree with that nerf.

Velentix
03-22-2019, 03:28 AM
Raime:
The way you worded your response when initially replying to me lead me to believe you were stating that you can use Goki to trade with other lights on reaction. Which is why I fired back with "you're not reacting to the light. You're reacting to movement and this can be easily baited and parried." Just FYI parries ignore guard switch timing. it's only actual attacks that get slammed with an additional time when switching. And that's only on static guard heros. And this is being fixed in season 10. So in theory this makes option selects even safer. I still challenge your statement about it shutting out offense. it's only a 500ms attack that has no soft feints or inherent properties to make it less safe to attempt to punish. 500ms based attacks are good interrupt tools. And the fact that he has armor on them makes them a bit easier to use interrupt wise.
But again. it's only 500ms. Even if we ignored reaction times here there is still an entire other weakness to goki's 500ms lights as far as trades go. Option selects.

I fail to see how the way I worded my first post lead you to believe I was talking about trading lights exclusively. I said: "All he has to do is light attack whenever his opponent does anything, and he will worst case trade lights, best case interrupt a gb, feint, heavy, or bash."
The only possible way to react whenever a static guard hero does any sort of offensive move is to wait for the guard to disappear to use his light. Granted, I didn't articulate this point in complete specificity, but in no way should it have lead you to thinking I was only talking about trading lights. you are correct about the option selects being a powerful tool against this, but the fact that you'd have to use option selects to deal with it from the get go I feel just proves that it is bad game design.

If I had my way I'd remove his HA on lights and give him superior block instead, I think its pretty fair especially given that superior blocks at least require a bit more timing and would give him an option that doesn't leave me feeling like both our hero's kits are being ignored. As for it completely shutting down offense, I can't say it does or doesn't definitively because I don't have anyone to test parries, and option selects, although on that note I don't consider either of those options offense, but I did only test it out against a warden bot, so I'd still need to test it against someone with a non dodge bash like tiandi; but even if I can't interrupt tiandi's bash, needing a non dodge bash to combat this still is bad game design. having had it used against me I can say that it slows the pace of the game down, and is pretty aggravating especially if used while blocking the zone. as far as reaction speed etc goes, I do agree with you that you can improve them, but that is pretty hard to do, and not as applicable as most would think at first glance especially in for honor when you have several layers of stimuli to react to, especially in 4v4.


As for your final comment about not being amazing at the game, allow me to remind you of something you said a few posts back: "If you want to call me arrogant because I speak from a higher players perspective that's fine. I've been here a long time. I've been with the game a long time. I've probably had more opportunities to play with different experiences of for honor than most here (talking different platforms and setups) and I not only converse with some of the best players of the game but i've played against people who often play against them. (sadly due to how little I play these days I haven't actually fought a competitive approved player yet.) To be brief I know I have bias. But I believe my "arrogance" is some what deserved given I do understand the game at a better level than most of the populace. This doesn't mean I believe my opinions are facts by the way."

The intimation of this paragraph is quite clear: I speak from a higher knowledge than you, and play/talk with people on same level as publicly aknowledged top tier players, ergo I am on the same level as them. While my opinions aren't facts, given my skill and knowledge, my opinion is at least worth more than yours.

Now I can definitely admit that you do have a greater knowledge than most as to the mechanics of the game, but using this sort of fallacious argument from Authority, only to reneg on it a few posts later leaves me confused as to what you actually think. Either way if you want to debate about game mechanics, you have more than enough knowledge to debate, relative skill (which doesn't necessarily correlate directly to game knowledge) shouldn't have anything to do with the current discussion.

FourSalmon723
03-22-2019, 04:05 AM
I think he needs a better rework but the only way you can be aggressive is in big team fights either wife he's just a turtle who hits hard head buts alot and can heal by hugging and crushing you he's not all that fun to play as if you ask me and he's just boring and frustrating to fight like you can try your hardest while they turtle and the guard break you once toss you to a wall and either Insta kill you if there real low or just hug you gets back up and stamina and the whole fight up to that point all that hard work is gone especially if he guard breaks you while your down and throws you against the wall and dose it again....ya they can do that after a hug I hate him

Sweatier_Sock
03-22-2019, 11:50 AM
Hurrah: +1 permanent ban for using the refresh button (apparently that spam)


For honor tracker has widely been ignored as a credible stat tracker for several months. So it's not really an accurate thing to go by. what metric would you rather use? Even if its inaccurate 0.1% does give alot of wiggle room (assuming 10% margin of error thats still top 10.1%...). If its not been used for months its a good thing most my stats predate marching fire then :)


If you are as knowledgable about the game as you say you are you should be able to answer a question pretty easily.
What exactly makes Berzerker's offense viable compared to Aramusha's? Haha whats next, you going to ask me the flight velocity of an unladen swallow? This is a 'how long is a piece of string' question & pointless to the discussion but i'll bite

Pick one (or the fact he has them all) - HA on chains, feints count as attacks for chain HA and that fast as light followup (not bound to softfeint rules), access to an unblockable at any point in chain, dodge attack/deflect to slip any counter attempts and keep pressure, and a simple backstep won't just leave zerk mixing up that air... personally I think its clearly because the beserker has access to a majestic beard.

Knight_Raime
03-22-2019, 10:43 PM
Hurrah: +1 permanent ban for using the refresh button (apparently that spam)

what metric would you rather use? Even if its inaccurate 0.1% does give alot of wiggle room (assuming 10% margin of error thats still top 10.1%...). If its not been used for months its a good thing most my stats predate marching fire then :)

Haha whats next, you going to ask me the flight velocity of an unladen swallow? This is a 'how long is a piece of string' question & pointless to the discussion but i'll bite

Pick one (or the fact he has them all) - HA on chains, feints count as attacks for chain HA and that fast as light followup (not bound to softfeint rules), access to an unblockable at any point in chain, dodge attack/deflect to slip any counter attempts and keep pressure, and a simple backstep won't just leave zerk mixing up that air... personally I think its clearly because the beserker has access to a majestic beard.

I don't subscribe to any such statistical tracker as proof for anything. The only thing that I value in terms of another's opinion is their knowledge of the game. You can have a negative k/d or not a very strong win/loss. As long as you actually know about what you're trying to weigh in on then I welcome your input. Yes the question I posed is pointless to the specific discussion at hand. I was asking it out of my own curiosity. Not to discredit you or hoist as evidence to throw your opinion away.

The things you listed are indeed strengths for Berzerker. But they are not the reasons why Berzerker's offense is better. Aramusha already has the tools for a great offense in his combos. The lynch pin between the two heros is heavy speed. As is public knowledge at this point Aramusha's deadly feints are easily avoided on reaction by back dodging on the heavy finisher start up. Aramusha has nothing to counter this. Technically speaking Aramusha should be able to feint GB like berzerker can to catch reactionary dodges. But he can't because of his heavy finisher speed. Berzerker's heavies are faster than aramusha's. Meaning he gets out of the recovery from feinting sooner and thus can GB to catch a dodge.

Sweatier_Sock
03-23-2019, 12:11 AM
The lynch pin between the two heros is heavy speed. As is public knowledge at this point Aramusha's deadly feints are easily avoided on reaction by back dodging on the heavy finisher start up. Aramusha has nothing to counter this. Technically speaking Aramusha should be able to feint GB like berzerker can to catch reactionary dodges. But he can't because of his heavy finisher speed. Berzerker's heavies are faster than aramusha's. Meaning he gets out of the recovery from feinting sooner and thus can GB to catch a dodge.

Thats inherent in what I said, didnt't think something as obvious as hvy attack speed needed to be explicit mentioned... if a backstep works against aramusha and not against zerk... why?

Honestly you are just nitpicking trying desperately to obtain some form of high ground.

OK, heres my return question. Leaving the heavy attacks as they are - remove everything else I said above. According to what you've just said, do you believe zerk would still be more viable than aramusha?

Sweatier_Sock
03-23-2019, 12:25 AM
I don't subscribe to any such statistical tracker as proof for anything. The only thing that I value in terms of another's opinion is their knowledge of the game. You can have a negative k/d or not a very strong win/loss. As long as you actually know about what you're trying to weigh in on then I welcome your input.

Sorry but from reading the above you are discrediting others because of your level and the level you say you play with, so if this is your belief you are not conducting youself like this

If you read my initial post re: stats you'd see I don't like them, and think they are unhealthy for a game - I simply out them there as some form of indicator because as per your justification for arrogance, you believe your talking to people with no idea...

EDIT: I presented stats ONLY because you were arguing from authority and being incredibly dismissive (hence arrogant)

UbiInsulin
03-23-2019, 02:16 AM
Hurrah: +1 permanent ban for using the refresh button (apparently that spam)

Yikes, I believe that occurred automatically. I restored your original account, so please make sure to switch back. :) Secondary accounts are against forum rules for obvious reasons.

And thanks everyone for the feedback, but let's not make arguments based on the skill of players who are in the conversation. It's valid to say that casual players and tourney players will have different experiences with heroes, but highly frustrating when someone says "you only think that because you aren't skilled/are a no-lifer" or what have you.

Both those types of arguments and using FHTracker to diss people are explicitly against the forum's guidelines (https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1172268-(Please-read-before-posting)-Welcome-to-the-official-FOR-HONOR-forum!).

Melikethegames
03-23-2019, 02:40 AM
Yikes, I believe that occurred automatically. I restored your original account, so please make sure to switch back. :) Secondary accounts are against forum rules for obvious reasons.

And thanks everyone for the feedback, but let's not make arguments based on the skill of players who are in the conversation. It's valid to say that casual players and tourney players will have different experiences with heroes, but highly frustrating when someone says "you only think that because you aren't skilled/are a no-lifer" or what have you.

Both those types of arguments and using FHTracker to diss people are explicitly against the forum's guidelines (https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1172268-(Please-read-before-posting)-Welcome-to-the-official-FOR-HONOR-forum!).

not Nerf shugoki everytime enamy can roll dodge away shoguki hug and unblock attack make its shugoki useless

Djohnson1066
03-23-2019, 02:44 AM
Just undo his rework. He was fine before. He wasnt for everyone but no one uses every single character.

Sweaty_Sock
03-23-2019, 03:04 AM
Yikes, I believe that occurred automatically. I restored your original account, so please make sure to switch back. :) Secondary accounts are against forum rules for obvious reasons.

And thanks everyone for the feedback, but let's not make arguments based on the skill of players who are in the conversation. It's valid to say that casual players and tourney players will have different experiences with heroes, but highly frustrating when someone says "you only think that because you aren't skilled/are a no-lifer" or what have you.

Both those types of arguments and using FHTracker to diss people are explicitly against the forum's guidelines (https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1172268-(Please-read-before-posting)-Welcome-to-the-official-FOR-HONOR-forum!).

Cheers, Probably something to highlight form the experience is your FAQ states your services teams can't overturn a ban, I put a ticket in anyway but it was a little disheartening to get a ban linking to a 'you can't appeal this beacuse you've breached guidelines thats why you were banned' faq

EDIT: didn't really convey enough thanks for you being proactive on the ban, thanks its legit thanks from me (thanks!)

Would also say that me an Raime arn't really dissing each other, no ill will towards him and there is no venom in our statements - these forums are a small enough stomping ground we will run into each other constantly so its probably a good thing we work out where the other stands here so moving forwards when we cross paths no threads are derailed and I can take his opinion in that thread with an open mind .

He rightly so wants to know if I'm just regurgitating info from google or actually know what i'm talking about. I'm taking time to show him i've got something like 72 days of playtime (damn, just saw that, I need a hobby)

UbiInsulin
03-23-2019, 03:38 AM
Would also say that me an Raime arn't really dissing each other, no ill will towards him and there is no venom in our statements - these forums are a small enough stomping ground we will run into each other constantly so its probably a good thing we work out where the other stands here so moving forwards when we cross paths no threads are derailed and I can take his opinion in that thread with an open mind .

He rightly so wants to know if I'm just regurgitating info from google or actually know what i'm talking about. I'm taking time to show him i've got something like 72 days of playtime (damn, just saw that, I need a hobby)

I just sensed a certain tension in the thread. No warnings/infractions have been issued as of now, so it's technically all good. Just something to be mindful of.

Sweaty_Sock
03-23-2019, 03:47 AM
I just sensed a certain tension in the thread. No warnings/infractions have been issued as of now, so it's technically all good. Just something to be mindful of.

Fair enough, will endevour to keep it civil

Now please excuse me while I go channel my nerd rage through the median of interpretive dance

Knight_Raime
03-23-2019, 01:50 PM
Thats inherent in what I said, didnt't think something as obvious as hvy attack speed needed to be explicit mentioned... if a backstep works against aramusha and not against zerk... why?

Honestly you are just nitpicking trying desperately to obtain some form of high ground.

OK, heres my return question. Leaving the heavy attacks as they are - remove everything else I said above. According to what you've just said, do you believe zerk would still be more viable than aramusha?


That's kind of the point. Most people look at both kits and see how one kit has all the supposed good things that the other kit does not. And thus those are usually the reasons brought up for Aramusha's "poor" kit by the average player. If you understood that it's really the heavy attack speed that sets them apart like i'm stating then you should have relatively good game sense. Which i'm both shocked about and happy to hear. I'm not nitpicking.


Sorry but from reading the above you are discrediting others because of your level and the level you say you play with, so if this is your belief you are not conducting youself like this

If you read my initial post re: stats you'd see I don't like them, and think they are unhealthy for a game - I simply out them there as some form of indicator because as per your justification for arrogance, you believe your talking to people with no idea...

EDIT: I presented stats ONLY because you were arguing from authority and being incredibly dismissive (hence arrogant)

I'm not. If I was i'd say I was. I'm an honest guy. You can tell me that it feels like i'm doing such thing. But you can't empirically state that I'm doing something when I know what i'm doing. That's basically putting words in my mouth. But instead of statements it's more like you're dictating what my hands are doing even though I can see my hands and they're not doing what you're claiming. BUT BAD EXAMPLE ASIDE...there is nothing else to add to this. And i'd appreciate if you'd stick to responding to me in one post instead of breaking up my post into seperate replies. it makes replying a bit annoying.

Sweaty_Sock
03-23-2019, 03:51 PM
"and a simple backstep won't just leave zerk mixing up that air... personally I think its clearly because the beserker has access to a majestic beard." - I don't like quoting myself but read up and it's there.

For the other point I'd refer you to some of the posts I didnt make.

No ill will mate, we all love the game

EDIT: It's honestly access to the beard