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Komet05
07-26-2005, 01:26 PM
Sorry, i dont know alot about the bombing of Berlin, but perhaps you could help me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I would like to know where the Germans placed their Anti-Aircraft guns around Berlin, did they have something like a belt of Anti-Aircraft guns in the Country side around Berlin or did the Germans place them inside Berlin?

Also what where the main German Anti-Aircraft gun/guns, I'd guess it was the 88mm for the high flying Bombers. Any others?

Also when the American Bombers Bombed Berlin what was the most likey Fighter to be sent up?
*1944*

What year did the Bombing of Berlin start?

And what was the bombers main objective? Did they go after the Oil/Industry of Berlin or did they bomb the population?

Alot to ask i know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif sorry for all the questions but i dont know much on the subject

Thanks all

Komet05
07-26-2005, 01:26 PM
Sorry, i dont know alot about the bombing of Berlin, but perhaps you could help me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I would like to know where the Germans placed their Anti-Aircraft guns around Berlin, did they have something like a belt of Anti-Aircraft guns in the Country side around Berlin or did the Germans place them inside Berlin?

Also what where the main German Anti-Aircraft gun/guns, I'd guess it was the 88mm for the high flying Bombers. Any others?

Also when the American Bombers Bombed Berlin what was the most likey Fighter to be sent up?
*1944*

What year did the Bombing of Berlin start?

And what was the bombers main objective? Did they go after the Oil/Industry of Berlin or did they bomb the population?

Alot to ask i know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif sorry for all the questions but i dont know much on the subject

Thanks all

Heliopause
07-26-2005, 01:34 PM
Hi, I know they had Big bunkers in the city for people to hide when they where bombed. On some of these stood AA-canons.
So called Flak-towers, these where in the city..

Dont know much more...

Utchoud
07-26-2005, 01:51 PM
Hi,

to answer all your questions would require a true expert on the history of the US strategic bombing campaign, but I'll answer at least the easiest one.

The first American bombs on Berlin fell on 4th March 1944. About 800 bombers of the 8th USAAF were sent for the first raid, but the weather was very bad. The bombers received an order to cancel the operation. One of the leader B-17 bombers continued with 20 more bombers plus one pathfinder and about 40 P-51B/C Mustangs, and the B-17s bombed the city.

The second raid on 6th March was done by 700 bombers and 700 fighters, and took heavy losses (69 bombers shot down). Three other raids, again with heavy losses, were performed until the end of March (9th, 22nd and one more). Since then, Berlin was a regular target of the 8th USAAF bombers.

This also answers your question about German plane types against US bombers on Berlin in 1943 - such situation didn't happen http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

(Source: Merle Olmsted, The 357th over Europe)

p1ngu666
07-26-2005, 01:52 PM
everywhere, also i dont think the americans went to berlin untill 44, the RAF did go, "battle of berlin" we lost alot of crews that winter bombing cities deep insdie germany

Zyzbot
07-26-2005, 01:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Komet05:
Sorry, i dont know alot about the bombing of Berlin, but perhaps you could help me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I would like to know where the Germans placed their Anti-Aircraft guns around Berlin, did they have something like a belt of Anti-Aircraft guns in the Country side around Berlin or did the Germans place them inside Berlin?

Also what where the main German Anti-Aircraft gun/guns, I'd guess it was the 88mm for the high flying Bombers. Any others?

Also when the American Bombers Bombed Berlin what was the most likey Fighter to be sent up?
*1943*

What year did the Bombing of Berlin start?

And what was the bombers main objective? Did they go after the Oil/Industry of Berlin or did they bomb the population?

Alot to ask i know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif sorry for all the questions but i dont know much on the subject

Thanks all </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

here is a source for some of the other German guns besides the 88mm

http://www.ww2guide.com/flak.shtml

Komet05
07-26-2005, 02:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Utchoud:
This also answers your question about German plane types against US bombers on Berlin in 1943 - such situation didn't happen http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

(Source: Merle Olmsted, The 357th over Europe) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well now i feel stupid http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Utchoud
07-26-2005, 02:06 PM
Please, don't feel like that! No one can know everything. Neither I do. Finally, that's why you are asking questions: you want to know.

FoolTrottel
07-26-2005, 02:14 PM
If yer interest goes further than just Berlin, you might want to read this document: German Ground based Air Defenses (http://www.blackvault.com/documents/ADA380153.pdf), but then again, you might not.
As it's a 595 page document ... It's scanned, w/o using OCR, so it's not really 'searchable' for like the word 'Berlin' ...

I found this some time ago, but somehow have not gotten 'round to reading it .... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Have Fun!

Komet05
07-26-2005, 02:30 PM
Thanks guys, Im Enjoying the info!
You see, in FMB im trying to make a "realistic" Berlin http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and then i will a USAF bombing campaign hopefully.

So far I'v learnt;

US Bombers targets were mainly focused on destroying German Industry

US involment in bombing Berlin started on 4th March 1944

RAF Bombers targets were a mixtury of Urban bombing and Industry.

German 88mm's were grouped in 4's and German search lights in 3's

What i need to know now for now;

Where did they Germans put the 88mm's? Country side, Urban area's or a mixture?

mole_boy
07-26-2005, 11:47 PM
from my info the germans built areas to the north and east of berlin that were decoys for the real city

Sherman8r
07-27-2005, 02:36 AM
Hi

I'm a historian, and very interesting in WW2, especially the air combat part of it, what i must point out here, is that the first bombing of Berlin happened during the battle of britian. This was because the German's mistakenly bombed london, even after orders not too. German bombers, HE-111's i think, got lost and dropped their load over London before returning home. This was thus an unintentional bombing of London, but the British quickly retaliated by bombing Berlin with every bomber that could make the distance. For the Brits, this bombing mission was a complete failure, as most of the bombers got shot down on route or return, and the damage inflicted on Berlin was very minimial, it did though, cause the German's, by direct order from Hitler, change their strategy in the Battle of Britian. They moved from targeting airfields and the RAF directly to targeting them indirectly, ie. in the air, by forcing them to respond by bombing London. This began the bombing of London. And thus it was the real first bombing on Berlin.

Hope that helps.

Utchoud
07-27-2005, 03:24 AM
Yes, my answer was only about American bombing of Berlin, the RAF first visited Berlin long before the USAAF did.

However, Sherman8r, I have slightly different information about the first raid on Berlin. According to my sources, one French Farman (Centre) N.C.223.4 bomber, called "Jules Verne", bombed Berlin in the night from 7th to 8th June 1940.

Komet05, I'd like to give you a small warning, your realistic Berlin will be difficult to model in FB/PF. In the Full Mission Builder, you can place almost as many objects as you want, but if you send 700 bombers into the air, the game will come to a halt even on the best high-end computers. I'm afraid you will have to reduce the numbers significantly, both in the air and on the ground.

BTW, check the Mission Builder forum, I think you will also find some help there.

Utchoud

Pirschjaeger
07-27-2005, 03:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Komet05:
Sorry, i dont know alot about the bombing of Berlin, but perhaps you could help me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Thanks all </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha ha ha, now that's a way to start a conversation. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz

Komet05
07-27-2005, 03:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Utchoud:
Yes, my answer was only about American bombing of Berlin, the RAF first visited Berlin long before the USAAF did.

However, Sherman8r, I have slightly different information about the first raid on Berlin. According to my sources, one French Farman (Centre) N.C.223.4 bomber, called "Jules Verne", bombed Berlin in the night from 7th to 8th June 1940.

Komet05, I'd like to give you a small warning, your realistic Berlin will be difficult to model in FB/PF. In the Full Mission Builder, you can place almost as many objects as you want, but if you send 700 bombers into the air, the game will come to a halt even on the best high-end computers. I'm afraid you will have to reduce the numbers significantly, both in the air and on the ground.

BTW, check the Mission Builder forum, I think you will also find some help there.

Utchoud </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know lol, i want to make a realistic berlin but in reason, im not going to sent 800 bombers in the air :P my pc would blow up http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

WOLFMondo
07-27-2005, 05:39 AM
If your interested in Flak towers theres one in the middle of Hamburg at the end of the Reaperbahn which looks like a giant concrete medieval castle, very impressive structure.

Banger2004
07-27-2005, 12:51 PM
"Berlin itself,and the area immediately around it, came under the aegis of Generalmajor Max Schaller's 1st Flak Division. On March 6 1944 this controlled 78 heavy batteries with a total of 414 guns of calibers 88mm, 105mm and 128mm. In addition there were 14 light flak batteries with 331 smaller weapons. The division had its headquarters in the Charlottenburg district near the centre of the capital.

The heaviest guns, the 128mm, and those belonging to mobile units, were manned by all-regular Luftwaffe units. The remainder were manned by small cadres of regular Luftwaffe men in command positions with large numbers of non-regular personnel to complete their complement."

This is an almost word for word excerpt from the book 'Target Berlin mission 250: 6 March 1944' by Jeffrey L Ethell and Alfred Price, an excellent read which very graphically tells the story of this raid over Berlin in broad daylight. Both sides of the tale are told, pulling few punches. ISBN 0-85368-915-6.

Sorry I can't tell you more, but maybe a google on the 1st Flak will yield results.

Waldo.Pepper
07-27-2005, 05:51 PM
IIRC toward the end of the war a 'typical' Luftwaffe airfield would have upwards of 150 flak canon defending it. Imagine what Berlin had.

hop2002
07-27-2005, 07:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but the British quickly retaliated by bombing Berlin with every bomber that could make the distance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, 81 bombers were dispatched to Berlin on the first raid, which was nowhere near full strength.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">For the Brits, this bombing mission was a complete failure, as most of the bombers got shot down on route or return, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of the 81 dispatched, 5 failed to return, with 3 of those ditching with the crews rescued.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and the damage inflicted on Berlin was very minimial </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. Only 29 bombers claimed to have bomed their targets in and around Berlin, nearly 30 reached Berlin but couldn't find their targets, the rest couldn't find Berlin. There was heavy cloud cover and conditions were poor.

Of the targets around Berlin, which were mainly Tempelhof airfield and the Siemens works, but also included other minor industrial targets, none were hit, and there were no casualties on the ground in Berlin.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> it did though, cause the German's, by direct order from Hitler, change their strategy in the Battle of Britian. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It didn't really cause it. Kesselring had been calling for a massive attack on London for weeks, Goering had begun to support him, Sperrle's Luftflotte (3?) had already switched mainly to night bombing, and the Germans had already begun to attack targets in British cities (over 1,000 British civilians were killed in Luftwaffe bombing in August).

LEXX_Luthor
07-27-2005, 08:44 PM
Waldos:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">toward the end of the war a 'typical' Luftwaffe airfield would have upwards of 150 flak canon defending it. Imagine what Berlin had. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Imagine placing all those real flak units in FMB. This is why FB flak should be super lethal per gun, or we place 1000 flak guns on a target area.


Thanks FoolThrottle, this is a Fantastic read http://www.blackvault.com/documents/ADA380153.pdf

Good stuff on WW1 also.

SkyChimp found a good collection of USAF pdf files, and this one deals with continental air defence to 1954...

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroot/numbered_studies/467710.pdf

Luftwaffe_109
07-27-2005, 09:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So called Flak-towers, these where in the city.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There were three main flak towers in Berlin.
The armament of Flak towers in 1944-45 consisted of 12.8 cm Flakzwillings, with lesser armament of 2cm and twin 3.7cm weapons for protection against low flying aircraft.

Sometimes (at least, this was the case in Berlin, Hamburg and Wien) the single 128 mm's were replaced by twin 128mm guns (shown below), four of them to a tower covered by smaller flak like 2cm flakzvierlings and 37mm Flakzwillings.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~alevrass/flak6.JPG

This is a picture of the Friederichshain Berlin Flak tower:

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~alevrass/flak.JPG
(I count at least four 128mms)

These three are pictures are of the the famous Zoo flak bunker in Tiergarten, Berlin:

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~alevrass/flak1.JPG

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~alevrass/flak2.JPG

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~alevrass/flak3.JPG
(This one shows the twin 128mms in each corner, so that makes eight 128mms!)

The other main flak tower was at Humboldthain, which unfourtunately I dont have good pictures of.

About the Zoo Flak Bunker. It was designed to be an air-raid shelter for 8000 civilians, but often held up to 30000 people in the bunker. The 1st floor was the shelter, the 2nd floor was storage rooms for art treasures from the Berlin Museums, the 3rd floor was the hospital (with 95 beds, 2 operating rooms, 8 doctors, 20 nurses and 30 aids), the 4th floor was the quarters for the luftwaffe Flak personnel, the roof held the flak batteries.

The towers had their own Energy and water supply as well command centres. As you can see, these flak towers were substantial constructions and were very nearly impossible to destroy.

Best Regards

Utchoud
07-28-2005, 12:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Luftwaffe_109:
There were three main flak towers in Berlin.
The armament of Flak towers in 1944-45 consisted of 12.8 cm Flakzwillings, with lesser armament of 2cm and twin 3.7cm weapons for protection against low flying aircraft.

Sometimes (at least, this was the case in Berlin, Hamburg and Wien) the single 128 mm's were replaced by twin 128mm guns (shown below), four of them to a tower covered by smaller flak like 2cm flakzwillings and 37mm Flakzwillings.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the word "Flakzwilling" already means that there are two guns in the mounting (Zwilling = twin).

Many thanks for the pictures!

Utchoud

Luftwaffe_109
07-28-2005, 01:02 AM
Hi Utchoud,

Yes, you are right. I meant that for these flak towers they changed from single to double 128mms.

I also noticed I called 2cms "flakzwillings" when they were actually "flakvierlings" (quad) at this time.

Best Regards

Luftwaffe_109
07-28-2005, 02:09 AM
Some more info on the flak bunkers. Each of the flak complexes at Humboldthain, Friedrichshain and Tiergartten had two towers. The G tower (Gefechtsturm) contained the heaviest guns while the L tower (Leitturm) contained the range finders and antennas.

An unknown (to me) flak tower (probably Vienna, I think):

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~alevrass/flaka.JPG

Modern photo of Humboldtshain Flakbunker:

http://www.polarinertia.com/july03/images/berlin/bb25.jpg

Americans inspecting Tiergarten Zoo Flakbunker:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/luftwaffe_109/flakc.jpg

Banger2004
07-28-2005, 03:10 AM
Excellent stuff Luftwaffe_109, great pictures. I had no idea the Flak towers were so substantial.

On further reading of the book I mentioned earlier, it is clear that the Flak was positioned in various districts within the city itself, with the large guns capable of loosing off a salvo every 3 1/2 seconds.

If bombers flew at 19500 ft at a range of 5 1/2 miles an 88mm shell took 19 seconds to reach them. In that time they could launch 48 shells! Imagine if the bombers were in range of two or three batteries for 2-3 minutes!!

Luftwaffe_109
07-28-2005, 03:43 AM
Very interesting Banger2004, I would have thought an 88 would take a little longer to reload. The anti-aircraft fire over Berlin (especially near the Flak bunkers) must have been withering!

I have some more images:

Friedrichshain flak bunker with a 128mm and what looks like the ammo container:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/luftwaffe_109/flakd.jpg


Luftwaffe crew on Humboldthain flak tower. In the background is a twin 128mm.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/luftwaffe_109/flake.jpg

38mm Flakvierling on Friederichshain Flak Tower.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/luftwaffe_109/flakf.jpg
(note the excellent field of fire afforded to anti-tank guns up here, despite being in the middle of a city).

Regards

Utchoud
07-28-2005, 03:48 AM
Are you sure the last picture is not a 20 mm gun? I didn't know that 37 mm quads were also produced.

Beautiful pictures! What else do you have for us? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Luftwaffe_109
07-28-2005, 03:51 AM
Ahh, how silly of me. It is of course a Flakvierling 38 which is 2cm. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Best Regards

Luftwaffe_109
07-28-2005, 03:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Beautiful pictures! What else do you have for us? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks everyone for the kind words.

The Flak Bunkers were quite massive complexes, equiped with their own power and water as well as quaters and hospital.

The following pictures are from inside the Zoo Bunker in Tiergarten. They show a generator room, filters and a hospital.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/luftwaffe_109/zoo1.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/luftwaffe_109/zoo2.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/luftwaffe_109/zoo3.jpg

Luftwaffe_109
07-28-2005, 04:09 AM
One more can't hurt http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif:

A diagram from a book showing the layout of a Flak Tower in Hamburg:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/luftwaffe_109/plan.jpg

Two modern photos of Flak Towers in Vienna:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/luftwaffe_109/mod2.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/luftwaffe_109/mod1.jpg

csThor
07-28-2005, 05:27 AM
The Flaktowers might have been impressive they were just a part of the equation. Since deploying an AAA battery in an urban area was not possible (no space, no field of fire - thatswhy the Flaktowers were built) the majority of the AAA defenses were outside of the town, probably in a half-circle ranging from South to West to North.

I haven't found anything specific except a rather inaccurate statement as "Berlin's AAA defense consisted of more than 100 batteries." It doesn't say which kind - regular Luftwaffe, RAD, Heer? Heavy, medium or light?

Since the heavy batteries were the real opponents of the heavy bombers I'd say they're more important than the medium and light ones. Initially the heavy batteries consisted of four heavy guns (8,8cm Flak 18/36 or 10,5cm Flak 39) which increased later to eight heavy guns (8,8cm Flak 41 or 12,8cm Flak40 [later 4x 12,8cm Flakzwilling 44]) all of which were guided by one Kommandoger├┬Ąt (initially Kommandoger├┬Ąt 40) or radar (W├╝rzburg).

darkhorizon11
07-28-2005, 12:34 PM
I would love to see these modeled.

Utchoud
07-28-2005, 12:34 PM
Thank you once again for both the pictures and the information. I've been interested in WWII air operations and technology for 10 years and never seen any photos nor heard details about these installations.

May I ask, what are your sources, Luftwaffe_109? It seems it's more than just one book, are you a "flak-spotter" of some sort?

Utchoud

JaguarMEX
07-28-2005, 02:59 PM
I was watching Line of Fire on HC the other day, it was about the battle of Berlin. In one segment of the program they were talking of how the russian tanks were trying to get past one of this towers but nothing could damage them. The tank bullets would bounce off this big structures.

Luftwaffe_109
07-28-2005, 11:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">May I ask, what are your sources, Luftwaffe_109? It seems it's more than just one book, are you a "flak-spotter" of some sort?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Utchoud!

Some excellent books to check out if you're interested in flak towers are The Flak Towers in Berlin, Hamburg and Vienna 1940-1950, Michael Foedrowitz and Fortress Third Reich: German Fortifications and Defense Systems in World War II, J. E. Kaufmann. There is also some interesting information about them (and a lot of other things) in Beevor's excellent Berlin: The Downfall 1945 which is about the final year of the war in the East.

About being a "flak-spotter", unfortunately no. However I did once get to see the flak tower in Augarten, Vienna, and believe me it is quite an imposing sight!

Best Regards

Utchoud
07-29-2005, 08:20 AM
Thank you, Luftwaffe_109. All your data have been stored on my computer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Knowledge doesn't only mean "I know", but also "I know where to find".

Utchoud

FliegerAas
07-29-2005, 08:35 AM
I've seen a Flak tower in vienna. These things are scary. You start freezing by just looking at them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.
A few pics I've found:
http://www.vienna.cc/wienpix/augarten_01.jpg

http://gpool.lfrz.at/gpoolexport/media/pict/57-n.jpg

Luftwaffe_109
07-29-2005, 10:15 PM
Hi Utchoud, once again thanks for your kind words.

To FliegerAas, it seems to me that the picture you posted first was of one of the flaktowers of Augarten.

It was an L tower (which can be deduced by the fact that it has about eight platforms, rather than four, mainly for guns of 20mm and 30mm caliber, possibly also 88mm I'm not sure). The tower you posted would also have mounted the aerials and searchlights.

These photos show the G-tower (modern photos) to your L-tower in Augarten, Vienna:

http://www.thirdreichruins.com/wienft4.jpg

http://www.thirdreichruins.com/wienft5.jpg

It is instantly distinguishable from the L-tower for being taller and having four platfroms for holding the large-caliber twin 128mm guns.

This is what I think is another angle (modern photo) of the L-tower you posted:

http://www.thirdreichruins.com/wienft8.jpg

You can see it has sustained damage, that is from Soviet attempts with large caliber artillery at close range to demolish it. The Soviets also atempted to demolish the G-tower I posted above with explosives however, though the inside is damaged, the tower still stands.

Best Regards

p1ngu666
07-29-2005, 11:17 PM
for sure they are imposing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif