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BTLive7
03-08-2019, 09:28 AM
Ok I've got two ideas one is about an actual move that could be added to his moveset and the other is about a animation (either a emote or a execution).

Let's start off by the move, samurai usually want to end an encounter as soon as the katana leaves its sheath so I was thinking about an opener where he draws the katana (the move starts from the sheath which is down to the left and leads up above his head to the right making a diagonal line straight from the sheath) and as he's drawing it he strikes someone with it. It could be a better opener than what orochi has right now.

Now for the emote or execution, I was thinking about a emote or execution where he wipes off the blood from his katana before putting it back in his sheath (or in this case back by his hip) the animation would go like this: he executes (or does the emote) an opponent and then turns the katana to the side that isn't sharp and passes it slowly in between his forearm and his arm cleaning the blood off of it before putting it back in its "sheath"

V1vson
03-08-2019, 04:25 PM
Just delete orochi from this game. We got Vorgiter - defence assassin with better spam.

Ubiflowessence
03-08-2019, 10:22 PM
Thanks for sharing this! If anyone else have any ideas/suggestions for Orochi, feel free to share them here!

MuscleTech12018
03-09-2019, 01:16 AM
I love how this guys "come with ideas" ... ( which to be honest they are total trash ideas,) believing like somebody from the "dev team" actually listens to them :)))) priceless.

Sekiro...
03-09-2019, 06:38 AM
ideas for orochi hmm...

>Lightning strike is too slow
my suggestion: make it have the same speed of Tiand's Top Tiger Dodge

>Zephyr strike is too risk for a such low damage
Shaman's Wild cat's swiftness is faster and is a heavy attack
my suggestion: make it a heavy attack or make it faster

>He have no openeres
ppl just turtle against you, its is worse when you pop up revenge and cant do NOTHING
my suggestion: Tozen's Kick (common guys, community are begging for this for a long time)

>Give more deflect's opportunities for him
my suggestion: make Storm Rush, Zephyr Strike and Lightning Strike soft feintable into a dodge

Kadete93
03-10-2019, 05:34 PM
I love how this guys "come with ideas" ... ( which to be honest they are total trash ideas,) believing like somebody from the "dev team" actually listens to them :)))) priceless.

Don't be toxic.. at least he shared something. You are not saying anything constructive.

Do you have a better idea for Orochi?

I would like more soft feints and less light spam.

LEGENDz_31
03-10-2019, 06:19 PM
I said this in another thread but as a counter attacker I would a lot more strength and utility to his deflect.

Wind gust - no initial damage but adds a small amount off bleed and wipes a lot of the enemyís stamina.
This way you can turn defense into offense if he goes oos.

Hurricane blast - guarantied damage and is a heavy, there for you would be able to execute from it. Also stops chains

Groups deflect- if you deflect when being locked on by multiple targets you would do a spinning zone that pushís your enemies back a few feet and creates space. Parry already protects against muiltiple tagets but deflect really doesnít even though they said you can deflect when out numbered.

I realize that there maybe some small nerfs in order to make this work but deflect is becoming a wasted skill with undodgables and so many bash/unblockables. Parry is simply better in every way.

LionsFang78
03-11-2019, 03:38 PM
What orochi needs more than anything right now is access to an unblockable that can open up turtles and allow him to apply pressure in team fights. It'd probably be a completely new move as I don't like the idea of making his heavy finishers unblockable or anything like that

I think I'd also be neat if he could use the kick and all guard abilities that Tozen has in the campaign

Col.Bullet
03-13-2019, 11:24 AM
ideas for orochi hmm...

>Lightning strike is too slow
my suggestion: make it have the same speed of Tiand's Top Tiger Dodge

>Zephyr strike is too risk for a such low damage
Shaman's Wild cat's swiftness is faster and is a heavy attack
my suggestion: make it a heavy attack or make it faster

>He have no openeres
ppl just turtle against you, its is worse when you pop up revenge and cant do NOTHING
my suggestion: Tozen's Kick (common guys, community are begging for this for a long time)

>Give more deflect's opportunities for him
my suggestion: make Storm Rush, Zephyr Strike and Lightning Strike soft feintable into a dodge
This. And how about increasing damage on double top lights? Could add more incentive to go for them rather than simple light spam.

Sweaty_Sock
03-13-2019, 12:20 PM
Hurricane blast - guarantied damage and is a heavy, there for you would be able to execute from it. Also stops chains


To address the points raised -


Hurrican blast can already be soft feinted into a gb if they go to dodge, hvy & execute from there (it can be soft feinted into wind gust if you want guaranteed, GB or dodge - so if they roll dodge forwards and lightning strike them)

Lightning Strike is an undodgable chasing move for people back stepping, its not an opener, use storm rush for that as its 1 of three directions and you can feint the run up

Zephyr Strike is for counter hitting only, its not an active attack, hence its undodgable & sticks to someone like glue & its a chain starter

Openers remember hes an assassin with a counter striking kit... for this Orochi already has a pretty rich kit and he has a good opener, you can feint storm rush mid run into a gb/parry or light from another direction (this has to be done during the run so you want to start from a decent distance to throw them off and you have to hit cancel before the blade starts to move), plus side feint into top light gets you 22 damage.... (cents 600ms heavies are 25 damage...)

deflect chance requests he can parry like everyone else and pull 22 damage off it. He also gets riptide strike which has the anti tracking properties

His feint game is already brutal (look at his move list, every single one of those heavies you could feint or it could be a light so you can really get into peoples heads), his zone great, his lights blinding fast & damage is good. There are enough unblockables already before you start giving them to an assassin...

Edit: double top lights was nerfed when GB on parry was removed, as an orochi can land them off any parry - its still 22 damage for a single light attack (wardens is easier to parry and nets only 18 damage)... he also gets to cancel chain finisher recoveries into a dodge, this is very good in anti gank in the 4v4 scenario types to get deflects etc.

Another EDIT the chain finisher cancel means you can throw two lights and a heavy for example , double lights land but a beserker doges under the heayy, you at any point from instantly to normal time dodge into their next attack for a deflect (although why not dodge back into stormrush & hit properly... up to you I suppose)

To the OP if you stand unlocked your sword is sheathed.. leaving locking on until the last second (either a dodge or an attack) can make your dreams come true, today!

For the execute request check out 'Tsubame Gaeshi', although I prefer 'choke on this' where he flicks the blade clean and it splatters on the ground

LEGENDz_31
03-13-2019, 01:16 PM
Hurrican blast can be soft feinted into a gb if they go to dodge, hvy & execute from there

Orochi already has a pretty rich kit and he has a good opener, you can feint your back dash heavies mid run into a gb/parry or light from another direction

His feint game is already brutal, his zone great, his lights blinding fast & damage is good. There are enough unblockables already before you start giving them to an assassin...

Edit: double top lights was nerfed when GB on parry was removed, as an orochi can land them off any parry

Stop it HB is wack. If you deflect you should get damage from it. Even if he dodges and you gb in most cases he can still CGB.
Why do we have two deflects when Wind Gust is by far the better of the two and they have no utility to them. Deflect is becoming more and more not worth it to attempted and itís a shame because itís a great mechanic.

Orochi kit is sub par In 4vs4. In any kind of gank situation we are ignored. Opponent is getting two vs oned? Lock on to the other guy and area block the orochi .... let him feed the revenge. Oh wait we can gaurd break to force a opening lol.

As for the increase damage to his lights, I donít think they need that but all of our moves are lights. Rip tide,ZS and LS this means we get maximum punish for them. To make ZS and LS a feintable heavy would be amazing.

Recap-
1. make deflect worth it over parry
2. Some sort of opener in 4ís doesnít even need damage.
3. Less risk to side attacks considering some new heroís spin in place and somehow not get hit or can dodge muiltible directions. Seems like something a counter attacker would have.

Rep 65 diamond 4 Orochi

Sweaty_Sock
03-13-2019, 01:47 PM
Stop it HB is wack. If you deflect you should get damage from it. but the light on deflect is 35 damage, and thats guaranteed. The heavy is 50 damage, and you can at ANY POINT press light to make it the 35 guaranteed again. FIFTY DAMAGE. Also hate to state the obvious as well but a gb on someone dodging cant be countered so if you cancel at the right time you will guaranteed a GB and top hvy


Recap-
1. make deflect worth it over parry it is, 35 free damage, with options if your feel adventurous for 50, plus dodging is alot safer than parrying


2. Some sort of opener in 4’s doesn’t even need damage. for what? Ganking? Your supposed to be running off and finding 2 v1 the OTHER WAY AROUND with this guy to help friends & force 1 v 1's/teams to split. To be honest a simple guardbreak is all you need to gank crazy effective if you just time if before your friendly hits (as they CGB you or are GB, doesn't matter which, they are hit).

EDIT: You can also trigger deflect by dodging into attacks against your external guard, even friendly ones, giving you an unblockable :)


3. Less risk to side attacks considering some new hero’s spin in place and somehow not get hit or can dodge muiltible directions. Seems like something a counter attacker would have. because everyone should get all the toys? The move is useful & i'd pay real money to have access to it on many of the other characters


Rep 65 diamond 4 Orochi For a heavy deflect you should know then that the softfeint GB works exacly like wardens old shoulder, hold it until they dodge then hit grab (or light attack for 35, but if your looking for an execute or?)

TicioQ
03-13-2019, 02:04 PM
Orochiís deflect is neither guaranteed nor safer than to parry

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VUStwF2o6S0

Oh, and itís quite vulnerable to hyper armour in contrast with a parry (that will stop the chain)

Sweaty_Sock
03-13-2019, 02:16 PM
Orochi’s deflect is neither guaranteed nor safer than to parry

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VUStwF2o6S0

Oh, and it’s quite vulnerable to hyper armour in contrast with a parry (that will stop the chain)

1) Hurricane blast has hyper Armour itself so will trade into whatever they throw with 50 damage... if they react either GB or turn to a light, it soft feints into everything. This is what i'm trying to say, there are a number of moves within the orochi deflect system that are awesome. (go read the move list if you don't believe me or hit training arena against a zerk set to zone attacks and try it)

2) I said DODGING is safer than parrying, go a tad early you slip under (hit that light attack button!), on time = bingo, wrong direction? Well that can save you as well!, it also deals with unblockables & bashes. Why so many characters twinkles toes around (even the heavies)

EDIT: remember how everyone screamed for nerfs when warden could start a bash, force a reaction, see the reaction & then do the correct punish. Thats Hurricane Blast.

Further EDIT: deflects continue to deflect any hits that occur at the time of the deflect animation, for fun you can deflect the zerk zone, count out the four hits, then use your light

I watched the video, first would have ended well if Hurricane blast was used rather than a light. You can also see what i'm talking about re: the animation keeps going if it keeps getting hit (good for anti gank) when the zerk zones, the only reason the orochi was hit was they hit light before the zone ended. If they waited 4 deflects all 4 would have bounced off from the one initial dodge/deflect, alternate was of course Hurricane & trade 2 hits for 50 damage

TicioQ
03-13-2019, 02:58 PM
My only complain with hurricane blast is that valquirie can stop it with her combo. Apart that, iím Fine with it and I agree with your opinion (maybe just reduce a little bit the time of the attack).

But my main complaint is with the light version. Is not acceptable that the signature move of orochi (Good to remember that is a ďcounter attackerĒ) can be stoped or provoque a damage trade. Not when other characters that are not counterattackers have better deflects (because they stop the chain or the enemy combos) or they just can Parry.

I think something at this regard could be done, like making the light deflect stop the enemy combos or make it faster so it can hit before the second combo lights of the enemies can hit.

I try to use deflect a lot, but I know I lose fights because of it. But what can I do? I prefer dying with a deflect that to win with a mere and bland parry 😂

Sweaty_Sock
03-13-2019, 03:32 PM
The issue with deflects is that they often happen by mistake - if there was an input like the BP flip you had to hit to initiate a deflect window with a penalty on miss i'd be all for buffing it, but the reality is often deflects are people just dodging too slow & getting their bacon saved - all to often you'll see PK deflects stand there as her dodge is a hvy and her deflect is a light so they were just mashing the dodge attack button & didn't even realise it'd happened... i've had orochi deflect and stand there looking at me dumbfounded - for this the light needs to not be the best option at all times as its also the dodge attack button which again is often an accidental

Also remember deflect is an option select, if your deflecting the first hit in a valk combo you don't HAVE to attack, just like if you deflected a BP light you'd be insane to try anything before that inevitable shield bash followup came through. If you want to get fancy and super advanced you can enter Hurricane, use the soft feint into another dodge and deflect/dodge whatever comes next (or back dodge out of hurricane into riptide or storm)

The only thing i'd possibly change is make it count as a combo finisher so you can dodge out of the recovery/end of the move faster (cool cinematic but in a gank i'd rather be outta there asap)

TicioQ
03-13-2019, 05:01 PM
So if we agree that deflect can be stoped, you need more skill than to parry and sometimes is just a damage trade, we could put a little love on it for orochi.

If not, make orochi more of an agresive character so he can do something. Right now is useful as a counterattacker, but even his counterattackís are not worth it... so give him some unloveable atrack or something like that ☹️

Sweaty_Sock
03-13-2019, 05:14 PM
So if we agree that deflect can be stoped, you need more skill than to parry and sometimes is just a damage trade, we could put a little love on it for orochi.

If not, make orochi more of an agresive character so he can do something. Right now is useful as a counterattacker, but even his counterattack’s are not worth it... so give him some unloveable atrack or something like that ☹️

unloveable?

What I said is that deflect comes of something with a much more forgiving margin of error, you parry early, your gone, you dodge a little early, you can still slip under most attacks, you dodge a little late, you can still get a deflect, you dodge the wrong direction, you can still dodge, not to mention your not even faced with alot of the difficult game choices for parry/flat footed characters like shugos hug, you just dodge both unblockables and the hug...

He has one of best parry punishes in game.

TicioQ
03-13-2019, 06:22 PM
I understand what you are saying but I disagree, doge attack are just traps for Orochi. With the speed that they have, they are always parried (at least in my case, I do not know for other orochis) or guardbreacked.

Apart that a Parry is easier to make, you can cancel it and many times it will hit even if the enemy was just making a feint.

Also, a parry will block all incoming attacks (in a 2vs1 for example) and cancel all the combos.

But anyways, the problem still (for me) that orochiís deflects is not worth it in comparison with other characters.

For example, berseker has dodge attack (and many others) but also a deflect that cancel any enemy combo or attack. Aparte of hyper armour, feint game with lights and unblockables.

Thatís just and example, but my point is: if orochis has nothing more that standard attacks because is supposed to be a counterattacker itís fine... but give him the opportunity to counterattack. At least, with a better counterattack than, basically, all rest of the roster.

What is the point of using orochi, if other character will have safer deflects and better attacks/moveset?

I will be happy just with a deflect that can stop the enemy next attack. Only that.

Soldier_of_Dawn
03-13-2019, 06:32 PM
Thanks for sharing this! If anyone else have any ideas/suggestions for Orochi, feel free to share them here!

I would like the Orochi to have some viable openers and more mix-ups in general so I suggest the following:


1) Speed Up Side Heavy attacks:
Make his side heavies as quick as his top heavy.


2) Give The Orochi Both Riptides
Give the Orochi both the old and new Riptides.

2 - Why?
Both Riptides have different inputs.

Old Riptide / Heavy Riptide:
The old Riptide worked as a heavy Riptide since it was a lot slower, did more damage, could be used for executions, and couldn't be countered with a Guardbreak as easily.

New Riptide / Light Riptide:
The new Riptide works as a light alternative to the original since it is faster, does less damage, cannot be used for executions, and is vulnerable to guardbreaks due to the dodge input.

A Light Riptide and a Heavy Riptide would be ideal for the Orochi as the two variants would help him confuse his opponents. This would add to his identity and make him more unique.


3) Old Riptide+
If the developers decide to add back the old Riptide, could they do the following:

3a) Allow the Orochi to attack from all directions with the old Riptide. This is because the original input for the Riptide required the player to push:
Left-Stick-Down + Right-Stick-Up + Heavy Attack.

The right-stick input was unnecessary as the Orochi could only attack from the top. If the Orochi was able to attack from both sides as well then the right-stick input would have been justified.

3b) Make it cancellable. Not being able to hard feint the old Riptide often made the Orochi vulnerable to easy counter attacks.

3c) Give it similar soft-feints / cancels to Hurricane Blast where the old Riptide can be cancelled with a Guardbreak, Dodge, Zephyr Slash, Lighting Strike and even the new Riptide.

3d) Allow it to initiate chain attacks as the new one does.

3e) Consider making the top variant of the Old Riptide unblockable and the side variations undodgeable to add to the Orochi's openers.


4) Add An Unblockable Attack - Tozen's Kick
Give the Orochi an unblockable attack to open up turtles and give more control of the fight. Tozen's Kick would be ideal as the move is already in the game.

If the developers add an unblockable attack / Tozen's Kick, they should also make it a cancel option for heavy attacks, heavy finishers, Storm Rush, and the old Riptide.


5) Storm Rush+
The following changes would further enhance the Orochi's sense of speed:

5a) Allow the Orochi to cancel Storm Rush at any time before the strike.

5b) Allow the Storm Rush to be cancelled with a Guardbreak, Side Dodge, Forward Dodge, Lightning Strike, Zephyr Slash, Tozen's Kick, or Riptide (both new and old where applicable) at any time before the strike.

5c) Allow the Storm Rush's stance to be cancelled with a Guardbreak, Dodge, Lightning Strike, Zephyr Slash, Tozen's Kick, or Riptide (both new and old where applicable).

5d) Increase the damage from 17 to 25. The reward for the Storm Rush is currently too low, given how it can be countered.


6) Top Light Attack Combo tweak and side variations
While these suggestions may not be popular at first because they could be seen as variations of light spam but the reasons should be considered.

6a) Access to the Top Light Attack Combo from both the first and second strike in a chain:
We know how the combo works from the first strike. However, regarding access from the second strike, for example, if the Orochi's first strike in a chain is a heavy attack and then he connects with a light on the second, he can get a guaranteed light on the third strike, thereby, replacing the chain finisher in the process. Another example is where the Orochi starts with two standard light attacks; if the second one connects, he can get a guaranteed light on the third strike in the chain, again, replacing the chain finisher.

6b) Add a side variation to the Light Attack Combo.

6c) Add the Light Attack Combo rule to special light attacks such as the current Riptide, dodge light attacks, and suggestion no.7 below.


7) Light Storm Rush
Give the Orochi a light variation of the Storm Rush with the following traits:

7a) The running speed is 30-100% faster than the current Storm Rush - fastest reactable speed.
7b) Omnidirectional - attack in all three directions.
7c) Each strike is a 500ms light attack.
7d) Each strike does 13 damage.
7e) All strikes are undodgeable.
7f) Each strike has access to the Light Attack Combo where if the strike connects the Orochi can get a guaranteed light attack for 7 damage.
7g) The move has no cancel options due to its speed and the fact it is a light attack.
7h) The move is a chain starter.

Accessing Light Storm Rush:
The Light Storm Rush can be accessed by one of two ways:

7i) Back-Dodge + Hold Heavy Attack button + Press Light Attack button
7ii) Back-Dodge + Hold Light Attack button + Release Light Attack button

The first option allows players to change their minds at the last moment on which Storm Rush to use according to the situation. The second option is simply easier to use. The same rule can also be applied to the current Storm Rush where the roles of the heavy and light attack buttons are reversed with the same reasoning applied.


8) Blocking in Storm Rush stance
Allow the Orochi to block while in Storm Rush stance. However, the additional changes would be the following:

8a) Standard Guard in Storm Rush stance:
While in Storm Rush stance the Orochi's Reflex Guard would be changed to Standard Guard, thus, allowing him unlimited freedom with blocking in this aspect.

8b) 0ms Guard Switch in Storm Rush stance:
With the addition of blocking in Storm Rush stance, the Orochi would have no delay in guard switching as it would be 0ms.


9) Forward-Dodge Melee - Forward Roll & Sword Thrust
9a) Convert the forward roll and sword thrust from the Orochi's former minion killing animations into a forward-dodge melee. The traits of the move would be the following:


Input: Forward Dodge + Heavy Attack
40 damage.
Speed of the roll = 500ms. Speed of the strike after the roll = 700ms.
Stamina cost = 20.
The roll would have the dodge property.
If the move connects it would immobilise the opponent the same way the Hurricane Blast does.


9b) Also, give the melee the following cancel options:


Hard feint
Guardbreak
Dodge & dodge attack.
Tozen's Kick
Old Riptide


9c) The move could also be a cancel option for the following:


Storm Rush
Old Riptide
Neutral and chained heavies.
Chain finisher recovery by default with the move being a dodge attack.

Sweaty_Sock
03-13-2019, 06:48 PM
I think you are missing the point I'm making.

1) Dodging is a huge part of this game - if I parried in a 1 v 2 i'm also at risk of getting lawbringer flipped, raider tackled etc. etc., a deflect out and hit would both clear me and punish my 1st enemy.
2) Orochi can parry the same as everyone else, and can punish for 22 damage off parrying a heavy with his top lights, making him one of the best at that.
3) Orochi also has deflect with the potential to deal FIFTY damage (65 in revenge!) - this isnt guaranteed however you can use it as a launchpad to inflict other damage OR blast through the rest of the trade with hyper armour to hit like an unparryable shugo
4) if you have slipped under an attack, orochis window to use his dodge attack lets you recognise this and land safe dodge attacks. These are not for use outside of a succesful dodge (like a bull fighter, tag them as they pass)
5) he has speed to interrupt, agility to allow him to dodge on reaction & punish (both side and backwards) & also remember you don't have to dodge attack, its just an option - you can just top light as soon as you pass the window of dodge attack while they are in recovery frame or GB and heavy like people without a dodge attack...

To be honest Orochi is a wrecking ball if your 'in the zone', your mind is racing 1000 MPH and your mind is working 3 steps ahead. On a good day in dominion i can score up to 1500 points, on a bad day I die horribley and change to someone simpler

Ubiflowessence
03-13-2019, 07:58 PM
Interesting thoughts you guys are sharing! I'll be forwarding this to the team. :)