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View Full Version : Jiang Jung needs hard nerfs



dinosaurlicker
03-06-2019, 10:59 PM
This guy is literally unpunishable, all you can do is go for parries and hope he doesnít cancel into something else. Sifu stance 90% of the time is just a roll that uses less stam and has less recovery. Trying to gb this j results in a t-rex gb. Way too much health for a little chinese guy too. And his dmg is the highest in the game lol. Please DONíT nerf him, he HASNíT been broken since release

Knight_Raime
03-06-2019, 11:23 PM
only his soothing mist feat is OP. Which they're supposedly fixing. And semi true. if he keeps you at range it's hard to punish him. But if you're in his face sifu canceling doesn't work because you can GB him in start up. and his side heavy dash attack is slow. Meaning it has a high GB vulnerability window that lets you GB it on reaction. So he can't just use that to reaction dodge your offensive pressure. He's certainly powerful in a team fight due to feats plus his sheer AoE. But that doesn't make him OP imho.

RenegadeRasta
03-06-2019, 11:48 PM
Way too much health for a little chinese guy too.

Uh, no.

dinosaurlicker
03-07-2019, 03:36 AM
Uh, no.

Look at him next to other heavies

Darkmight_cz
03-07-2019, 03:53 PM
Sorry mate but just check last winrate matrix he is on top in all game modes. I don't have such a hard time vs other strong chars such as monk, BP, conq etc but JJ is certainly OP in current state. Just my opinion

DFQN1
03-07-2019, 03:58 PM
His lights do way too much damage. And his zone, too. If the damage of lights and zone gets decreased, I'm fine.

FlyinBeef
03-07-2019, 04:47 PM
Sorry mate but just check last winrate matrix he is on top in all game modes. I don't have such a hard time vs other strong chars such as monk, BP, conq etc but JJ is certainly OP in current state. Just my opinion

Man, winrate matrix is just statistics, they collecting information from all people or from ptalinum and above! It is stupid, most of people even on platinum and even on diamond are noobs, noobies which don't know how to play, of course JJ will be strong if you missing lights and don't know how to deal with his moves.

Siegfried-Z
03-07-2019, 05:23 PM
only his soothing mist feat is OP. Which they're supposedly fixing. And semi true. if he keeps you at range it's hard to punish him. But if you're in his face sifu canceling doesn't work because you can GB him in start up. and his side heavy dash attack is slow. Meaning it has a high GB vulnerability window that lets you GB it on reaction. So he can't just use that to reaction dodge your offensive pressure. He's certainly powerful in a team fight due to feats plus his sheer AoE. But that doesn't make him OP imho.

Keep in mind that his dmg are above all others for an unknown reason on his Light chain, Zone and side dodge attack. That's not normal.

His side dodge is slow, but no others side dodge attacks got so many mix up options and he has HA on.

Plus his insane aoe and HA or UB on all heavies in any direction. JJ is just a pain for the game in 4v4 console (which represent most of the games played).


Man, winrate matrix is just statistics, they collecting information from all people or from ptalinum and above! It is stupid, most of people even on platinum and even on diamond are noobs, noobies which don't know how to play, of course JJ will be strong if you missing lights and don't know how to deal with his moves.

A diamond player dont even know how to play ? You're wrong. Because if it would be true then average player would be Master and decent player GM?
Bronze players are newbies who dont know how to play. Silver and gold are average. Plat and Diamond are decent players. Then Master is high level and GM top level.

And Btw, what is the purpose to say it is just statistics? It's like saying "it is just maths, it doesn't proove anything in anyway by A + B no".

Of course these stats are not perfecly made but they still show some true things. JJ is a good example.

LionsFang78
03-07-2019, 05:27 PM
I think his lights do too much damage for how fast they are, and soothing mist is easily the best feat in the game. Other than that I can't complain about him too much

I guess his movement speed is a little ridiculous considering he's a big guy who's a heavy class with a large health pool. At first glance I'd imagine him being only slightly faster than Highlander

rottmeister
03-07-2019, 05:47 PM
Man, winrate matrix is just statistics, they collecting information from all people or from ptalinum and above! It is stupid, most of people even on platinum and even on diamond are noobs, noobies which don't know how to play, of course JJ will be strong if you missing lights and don't know how to deal with his moves.

I highly doubt Diamond players are noobs considering they are the top 10% (excluding top 1% and top 100). Wouldn't it be really concerning if the top 10% BEST players on a platform didn't know how to play the game?
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/geU2J5ga5Zc/maxresdefault.jpg

Knight_Raime
03-07-2019, 07:09 PM
Keep in mind that his dmg are above all others for an unknown reason on his Light chain, Zone and side dodge attack. That's not normal.

His side dodge is slow, but no others side dodge attacks got so many mix up options and he has HA on.

Plus his insane aoe and HA or UB on all heavies in any direction. JJ is just a pain for the game in 4v4 console (which represent most of the games played).

His side dodge has one mix up option which is the 400ms soft feint light. Which always comes from the opposite angle and is telegraphed by the long dodge attack. It's actually fairly easy to react to because of this. His dodge attacks only get HA after 600ms? into their attack. So it's not very practical to use as trading. And you kind of deserve to eat the hit if you're not only reacting that late but wrongly reacting to the situation. Again as i've stated JJ is far less effective the closer you are to him. JJ of course if he's a good player can maintain spacing making it difficult to handle him.

I'm not denying that JJ has some positive things. I am just pointing out that he has a very clear weakness that doesn't require godly reactions to exploit. And that because of that and his general lack of offensive play he's not a balance problem. Just his feat.

Vendelkin
03-07-2019, 07:44 PM
His side dodge has one mix up option which is the 400ms soft feint light. Which always comes from the opposite angle and is telegraphed by the long dodge attack. It's actually fairly easy to react to because of this. His dodge attacks only get HA after 600ms? into their attack. So it's not very practical to use as trading. And you kind of deserve to eat the hit if you're not only reacting that late but wrongly reacting to the situation. Again as i've stated JJ is far less effective the closer you are to him. JJ of course if he's a good player can maintain spacing making it difficult to handle him.

I'm not denying that JJ has some positive things. I am just pointing out that he has a very clear weakness that doesn't require godly reactions to exploit. And that because of that and his general lack of offensive play he's not a balance problem. Just his feat.

I get a lot of what you are saying from my experience fighting him. Do keep in mind console players tho and also

" his general lack of offensive play he's not a balance problem."

Wat.... seriously jj has good offensive play. Lights are decently fast follow ups. Hyper armor openers. Unblockables available on whiff or second hit predictable or not. A predictable but existing bash mixup that forces player movement and can be hard feint to gb for side dodgers. Good feint windows for all his manuevers with sifu cancel still available for offensive spam play.

Jj has very good offensive play. No idea how you could conclude that he is a defensive character. Especially with his numbers.

Also his side dodge having one mix up.... how many other heroes are there that have ANY mix up in dodge attacks? It may be mostly reactable but its not a weak tool either. The trade aspect is weak on them but the extended dodge property makes reaching those HA frames pretty safe too. I mean seriously. You bait a berserker, orochi, pk into their side dodge attack and its an easy parry. Baiting a jj means you still have to think or be on your toes or he will still win the moment.

Siegfried-Z
03-07-2019, 08:38 PM
His side dodge has one mix up option which is the 400ms soft feint light. Which always comes from the opposite angle and is telegraphed by the long dodge attack. It's actually fairly easy to react to because of this. His dodge attacks only get HA after 600ms? into their attack. So it's not very practical to use as trading. And you kind of deserve to eat the hit if you're not only reacting that late but wrongly reacting to the situation. Again as i've stated JJ is far less effective the closer you are to him. JJ of course if he's a good player can maintain spacing making it difficult to handle him.

I'm not denying that JJ has some positive things. I am just pointing out that he has a very clear weakness that doesn't require godly reactions to exploit. And that because of that and his general lack of offensive play he's not a balance problem. Just his feat.

JJ can also hard feint his side dodge for whatever he wants to. So he has a lots of options on his dodge. While most others side dodge attacks have zero options and once you input it, you get punished if you make a wrong read.

He is the best and easiest 4v4 char untill his dmg, aoe and feats got reduced.

Darkmight_cz
03-07-2019, 09:44 PM
Man, winrate matrix is just statistics, they collecting information from all people or from ptalinum and above! It is stupid, most of people even on platinum and even on diamond are noobs, noobies which don't know how to play, of course JJ will be strong if you missing lights and don't know how to deal with his moves.

A diamond player dont even know how to play ? You're wrong. Because if it would be true then average player would be Master and decent player GM?
Bronze players are newbies who dont know how to play. Silver and gold are average. Plat and Diamond are decent players. Then Master is high level and GM top level.

And Btw, what is the purpose to say it is just statistics? It's like saying "it is just maths, it doesn't proove anything in anyway by A + B no".

Of course these stats are not perfecly made but they still show some true things. JJ is a good example.

Exactly this +1

Knight_Raime
03-07-2019, 11:17 PM
I get a lot of what you are saying from my experience fighting him. Do keep in mind console players tho and also

" his general lack of offensive play he's not a balance problem."

Wat.... seriously jj has good offensive play. Lights are decently fast follow ups. Hyper armor openers. Unblockables available on whiff or second hit predictable or not. A predictable but existing bash mixup that forces player movement and can be hard feint to gb for side dodgers. Good feint windows for all his manuevers with sifu cancel still available for offensive spam play.

Jj has very good offensive play. No idea how you could conclude that he is a defensive character. Especially with his numbers.

Also his side dodge having one mix up.... how many other heroes are there that have ANY mix up in dodge attacks? It may be mostly reactable but its not a weak tool either. The trade aspect is weak on them but the extended dodge property makes reaching those HA frames pretty safe too. I mean seriously. You bait a berserker, orochi, pk into their side dodge attack and its an easy parry. Baiting a jj means you still have to think or be on your toes or he will still win the moment.

His lights are 500ms. Those are blocked especially if someone buffers the input. At best their okay interrupt options in 4's. But JJ doesn't have any pressing choice reaction mix ups. So defending against his lights are not hard. Openers that have armor are usually only good in 4's. In his case they're alright. But you can't always go for a trade with them because you'll just get baited and parried. His unblockable zone is the only threat he has unblockable wise. The rest are very easily reacted to. His side dodge attack and his forward dodge attack are both too slow to toss out and then feint to GB. If someone is dodging in a way where that actually works they're playing poorly. They're too slow to actually force a reaction. His dodge forward in particular can be avoided on one dodge timing that allows you to react to whatever he does after the soft feint kick or hard feint. And his side dodge is too slow to be a reactionary dodge feint. If you start that up and i'm within GB range you're screwed.

I say he's a defensive hero because he plays best at his effective range. Has dodge into sifu's. and the ability to cancel some moves/recoveries. All of that goes out the window if I close the gap. You can't use sifu's to cancel recovery or moves because i'll GB you. And your dodge attack even if you feint it will still net a GB for the opponent if they have decent reaction times. The only thing JJ can do against someone in his face is to try to bait a parry with a hard feint or try to interrupt someone's mix up with a random light or zone. His offense is severely limited in close range.

The HA frames on his moves are basically pointless in a 1v1 setting. because their 600ms into the attack. And attacking JJ out of his dodge is never the proper reaction even in a gank/ group situation. You're always wanting to bait a sifu's/dodge use for a GB setup. Incorrect. If I heavy feint into GB on prediction or reaction to JJ who starts a dodge attack he's GBed. The speed of his attack dictates that he has a high GB vulnerability window. If you commit to the dodge attack I GB it in start up. If you input and then feint I catch you in your recovery after a feint. and if I feint and GB as a prediction I GB you in dodge start up.


JJ can also hard feint his side dodge for whatever he wants to. So he has a lots of options on his dodge. While most others side dodge attacks have zero options and once you input it, you get punished if you make a wrong read.

He is the best and easiest 4v4 char untill his dmg, aoe and feats got reduced.

Which does nothing other than maybe save him from a parry punish. The only option he has besides his dodge attack soft feint is dodge into sifus. This lets you avoid something on the level of dodge into unlock roll I frame wise. But again you can't do that safely in cqc situations with JJ. Which was my point. JJ is severely limited in close range. It's only when he keeps range on his opponents that his kit actually shines for 1v1 situations.

I don't know why you guys seem to think a feintable dodge attack means he can't be punished. Maybe this is the huge disconnect people talk about when it concerns normal play versus play where people know what their doing. I'll restate. JJ's dodge attack is slow. Attack speeds dictate your GB vulnerability. The slower the attack the bigger window someone can GB you for an untechable GB. You can be GBed at any point with anything in the game unless the move has zero vulnerability. No moves like that exist. You can be GBed in the start up of your dodge even if it's just an empty dodge. And if you feint something you still enter a period of recovery. All of this means you will be punished by a person for attempting to use your dodge attack in gb range regardless if you input and then feint immediately or you try to feint on reaction.

Siegfried-Z
03-08-2019, 12:44 AM
Which does nothing other than maybe save him from a parry punish. The only option he has besides his dodge attack soft feint is dodge into sifus. This lets you avoid something on the level of dodge into unlock roll I frame wise. But again you can't do that safely in cqc situations with JJ. Which was my point. JJ is severely limited in close range. It's only when he keeps range on his opponents that his kit actually shines for 1v1 situations.

I don't know why you guys seem to think a feintable dodge attack means he can't be punished. Maybe this is the huge disconnect people talk about when it concerns normal play versus play where people know what their doing. I'll restate. JJ's dodge attack is slow. Attack speeds dictate your GB vulnerability. The slower the attack the bigger window someone can GB you for an untechable GB. You can be GBed at any point with anything in the game unless the move has zero vulnerability. No moves like that exist. You can be GBed in the start up of your dodge even if it's just an empty dodge. And if you feint something you still enter a period of recovery. All of this means you will be punished by a person for attempting to use your dodge attack in gb range regardless if you input and then feint immediately or you try to feint on reaction.

Having the possibility To avoid a punish is still a big advantage compare to most others.

I am not talking about his side dodge efficiency but show that he has a lot of options. Do you think it is logic that a Tank got the side dodge attacks with the most options ? Plus HA and 25dmg.

I've never said he cant be punish. I parry or crushing counter him often enough on his 400ms softfeint. But it doesn't change that he is too strong.

You should also stop to suggest having a different opinion than you mean To be "a normal player who dont know what he is doing". This is just a friendly advice.

I think the real "disconnect" came To the fact you're talking about a PC duel situation while i've already mention i talk about a Console 4v4 one which is very, very different.

I can agree with you JJ is a weak pick in Duel on PC and an average one in duel on Console.

But on console 4v4, he is a pain. There are no others words. And not only because of the feat as you said.

I just dont get why the Guy has dmg above all others.
Do you know the reason why his light chain is 38 dmg, Zone is 28, and side dodge 25 ? Because i dont . It is only unfair.

I think he should have his bash improved, it would help him in 1v1.
But his light should be 15-18 max, Zone should be 20 and side dodge 20. Plus his heavy finisher should be UB only from the top or his aoe should be reduce. It would reduce his 4v4 toxicity.

Currently you can be hit by a JJ ub while you didn't even saw him on your screen in some situations.

I am not someone who ask for nerfs. I would only say BP should have a bigger recovery on sb and less light finisher dmg. But overall i am not asking for some nerfs on this forum.
I dont even want it for Conq, Zerk and others S tiers.
But JJ is my exception. Because he is just ridiculous currently. It is what i call easy mode to play him.

rottmeister
03-08-2019, 12:50 AM
1 vs 1 no issues, can be gb'ed out A LOT

4 vs 4 never thought I'd be scared ganking someone

Everytime when we outnumber a JJ this is my initial response:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6oQUDFV2C0

Man's a crazy good antiganker

Sweaty_Sock
03-08-2019, 02:29 AM
JJ has range, HP, mixups, speed, power & agility. I though his low stamina pool/high attack costs would be his balancing point (i.e. he chips away with effective attacks however has to watch his stamina) - problem is his OOS is gone before you can even blink and hes back at you again (he can control distance, so by the time you gap close his massive regen rate puts him back to 100%)

NOONE NEEDS HARD NERFS. He needs some tweaks, hardnerfs just ruin the game for people who want to play him - i'd suggest getting his stamina regen down or putting a pause on his OOS before it starts to regen to allow enough time to actually punish him.

Vendelkin
03-08-2019, 02:36 AM
Raime you are coming across as more and more pretentious with how you talk about what can and cant be done. Literally nothing you discussed in that last post is true with regards to console, and console players do deserve consideration for balance discussions. Your long list of assuming people have excellent reaction speed (which is pretty much what your whole post boils down too) doesnt tell us anything because literally the whole cast of the rest of the heroes also have those same things.

Basically using your rationale i could conclude berserker has no offense. Because all his stuff is slower than 500ms except for a predictable side light (since the pre move has to also be a heavy from the other side or the combo fails)

Which is of course bloody stupid.

Also all of those other unblockables you call useless? They force a reaction being unblockable and can be feinted so that makes no sense.

Again with the rationale you used I could now conclude that the only characters with "offense" in your terms are.... nuxia and orochi for their light spamming.... yay and maybe people with bashes so bp warden amd conq????

Seriously your logic makes no sense in the above post. You state one thing and then conclude with the opposite of what most players would understand from the data.

Sweaty_Sock
03-08-2019, 08:37 AM
Changed my mind, just vs'd another... why can he OOS on parry and yet regenerate his own so fast. He's got a perfectly balanced moveset for shinobi levels of HP...

Siegfried-Z
03-08-2019, 10:35 AM
Just think about it now but in the last Setmyx tier list JJ is A tier un duel and the best char in Dom.

And this is made for competitive play on PC.

I dont care about these list but i know some people do, so, just let it here ..

Sweaty_Sock
03-08-2019, 04:00 PM
I was wrong... to steal & change a phrase, this character it master of all trades, jack of none

Knight_Raime
03-08-2019, 05:23 PM
Having the possibility To avoid a punish is still a big advantage compare to most others.

I am not talking about his side dodge efficiency but show that he has a lot of options. Do you think it is logic that a Tank got the side dodge attacks with the most options ? Plus HA and 25dmg.

I've never said he cant be punish. I parry or crushing counter him often enough on his 400ms softfeint. But it doesn't change that he is too strong.

You should also stop to suggest having a different opinion than you mean To be "a normal player who dont know what he is doing". This is just a friendly advice.

I think the real "disconnect" came To the fact you're talking about a PC duel situation while i've already mention i talk about a Console 4v4 one which is very, very different.

I can agree with you JJ is a weak pick in Duel on PC and an average one in duel on Console.

But on console 4v4, he is a pain. There are no others words. And not only because of the feat as you said.

I just dont get why the Guy has dmg above all others.
Do you know the reason why his light chain is 38 dmg, Zone is 28, and side dodge 25 ? Because i dont . It is only unfair.

I think he should have his bash improved, it would help him in 1v1.
But his light should be 15-18 max, Zone should be 20 and side dodge 20. Plus his heavy finisher should be UB only from the top or his aoe should be reduce. It would reduce his 4v4 toxicity.

Currently you can be hit by a JJ ub while you didn't even saw him on your screen in some situations.

I am not someone who ask for nerfs. I would only say BP should have a bigger recovery on sb and less light finisher dmg. But overall i am not asking for some nerfs on this forum.
I dont even want it for Conq, Zerk and others S tiers.
But JJ is my exception. Because he is just ridiculous currently. It is what i call easy mode to play him.

As i've already said and continue to state he has good defense/offense at range. It's only when you close the gap against him that he becomes incredibly bad. I'm not exactly sure why you keep assuming i'm calling him garbage as a whole. I'm not. Nor have I ever stated that in this thread. You can try to scapegoat my current pc dwelling all you want. It's meangingless. I have not even a days worth of playtime on pc. Majority of my play experience was on xbox one and these opinions i've had about JJ have been the same since then. They didn't suddenly change because of platform change. I've also very clearly stated in this very thread when i'm talking about what. I'm not only speaking about duels.

I don't have an answer to his why his damage is the way it is. Merely stated that I personally don't see it as a problem considering how poor his offense is and his lack of choice reaction pressure. If the devs nerfed his damage I wouldn't care. If they leave it alone I wouldn't care. My issue (against him) has 100% been soothing mist. Playing him is un-enjoyable to me because of how terrible his mix ups are. I completely understand why he's considered one of the best if not the best 4v4 hero currently. But imo that doesn't mean he's a problem character.

Knight_Raime
03-08-2019, 05:37 PM
Raime you are coming across as more and more pretentious with how you talk about what can and cant be done. Literally nothing you discussed in that last post is true with regards to console, and console players do deserve consideration for balance discussions. Your long list of assuming people have excellent reaction speed (which is pretty much what your whole post boils down too) doesnt tell us anything because literally the whole cast of the rest of the heroes also have those same things.

Basically using your rationale i could conclude berserker has no offense. Because all his stuff is slower than 500ms except for a predictable side light (since the pre move has to also be a heavy from the other side or the combo fails)

Which is of course bloody stupid.

Also all of those other unblockables you call useless? They force a reaction being unblockable and can be feinted so that makes no sense.

Again with the rationale you used I could now conclude that the only characters with "offense" in your terms are.... nuxia and orochi for their light spamming.... yay and maybe people with bashes so bp warden amd conq????

Seriously your logic makes no sense in the above post. You state one thing and then conclude with the opposite of what most players would understand from the data.

I played console for basically my entire for honor experience barring the last 2 months ish. I don't even have a days play time on pc. Console is a poor argument and i'll not get into a debate over it yet again. And no, you are either stretching my words on purpose or you don't actually understand. Either way, If good reaction time was all you needed to be a good player in FH things would be massively different.
Further more if you think you can shut away a zerk with pure reactions only then you REALLY don't understand zerks kit and why he's so good.

Just because an unblockable is feintable doesn't mean it automatically forces a reaction. Take warden's unblockable top heavy finisher for example. It's recovery numbers and how late you can delay the feint mean you realistically can't GB it ever. However it's still considered rather "poor" in high tier play. Not because you have god reactions at that level. But because it has poor late side tracking. Meaning instead of trying to decide if they're going to commit for a parry you simply wait till they can't feint out of it and then dodge and get a free GB since they're in recovery.

Overall your reply doesn't actually disprove anything i've stated. So i'll restate my "view" on JJ in a short and concise manner. JJ is a strong 4's hero. Probably the best at this current time. His strengths are his range/aoe presence, good damage profile, and decent defensive capabilities. His cons being no pressure in regards to choice reaction mix ups. No OOS pressure. falls apart if he can't space someone out. Sifu's becomes a dead move in cqc. I could care less if they nerf his damage or leave it as is. In my opinion it's not a big deal either way. It won't shift his viability in either direction as his power is more tied to spacing/aoe presence than actual damage. I'd love it if they could do something about his two dash mix ups to make them actually viable in a 1v1 situation. And i'd love it if they maybe gave him another option out of sifu to go along side his zone. So that his sifu could be a bit safer to use in cqc.

Knight_Raime
03-08-2019, 05:43 PM
Just think about it now but in the last Setmyx tier list JJ is A tier un duel and the best char in Dom.

And this is made for competitive play on PC.

I dont care about these list but i know some people do, so, just let it here ..

You have to keep in mind that the current tier list for duel is entirely based around 2 facts. Bashes got easier to avoid (which is being fixed) and timing a round out after getting a health lead is considered to be a very viable and worthwhile strat. As I already said JJ is very good if he can keep his opponent spaced. This applies even in a 1v1 situation. So that's why he's where he is at for duels. Plus his decent damage profile. This doesn't mean JJ is actually a good duel character. One need only look at the fact that Lawbringer is now considered "top tier" in duels. And again it's not because LB is a great duelist. It's because he's good at stalling things out.

If you're going to use competitive based material you should probably at least try to learn why said things are being stated before trying to use them as material in a discussion.

Siegfried-Z
03-08-2019, 11:34 PM
As i've already said and continue to state he has good defense/offense at range. It's only when you close the gap against him that he becomes incredibly bad. I'm not exactly sure why you keep assuming i'm calling him garbage as a whole. I'm not. Nor have I ever stated that in this thread. You can try to scapegoat my current pc dwelling all you want. It's meangingless. I have not even a days worth of playtime on pc. Majority of my play experience was on xbox one and these opinions i've had about JJ have been the same since then. They didn't suddenly change because of platform change. I've also very clearly stated in this very thread when i'm talking about what. I'm not only speaking about duels.

I don't have an answer to his why his damage is the way it is. Merely stated that I personally don't see it as a problem considering how poor his offense is and his lack of choice reaction pressure. If the devs nerfed his damage I wouldn't care. If they leave it alone I wouldn't care. My issue (against him) has 100% been soothing mist. Playing him is un-enjoyable to me because of how terrible his mix ups are. I completely understand why he's considered one of the best if not the best 4v4 hero currently. But imo that doesn't mean he's a problem character.

I've never said your opinion is JJ is garbage.
At the end we both says he is the strongest 4v4 char.
But it looks fine to you, not To me. That's all.

I like fair things.
So i dont care if a char is very strong, we always gonna have a first and a last char. But my opinion is JJ is the one for bad reasons, like his dmg above others, his abnormal aoe and feats. This is not fair.


You have to keep in mind that the current tier list for duel is entirely based around 2 facts. Bashes got easier to avoid (which is being fixed) and timing a round out after getting a health lead is considered to be a very viable and worthwhile strat. As I already said JJ is very good if he can keep his opponent spaced. This applies even in a 1v1 situation. So that's why he's where he is at for duels. Plus his decent damage profile. This doesn't mean JJ is actually a good duel character. One need only look at the fact that Lawbringer is now considered "top tier" in duels. And again it's not because LB is a great duelist. It's because he's good at stalling things out.

If you're going to use competitive based material you should probably at least try to learn why said things are being stated before trying to use them as material in a discussion.

I'm pretty aware for what reasons this list is made like that. That's why i've said i dont care about these list.

But as you always use the competitive bracket as a mirror of the state of balance, this is it.

Vendelkin
03-09-2019, 12:21 AM
Im with sieg here. Raime im aware you think hes strong. And some of the stuff you provide such as your analysis of his side dodges vulneribility is good.

Also an admittance i play primarily aramusha in duels. Who has the slowest in lock movement speed in the game. This means (although i have not tested it myself yet and may later today) that corning or grtting a jj into cc is a near impossibility for me, which may explain my strong feelings on the subject.

With regards to sieg you are again reading into his knowledge incorrectly assuming he doesnt understand the tier list.

And as far as your response to me, of course i dont think those things about berserker. I know he has good offense. But using your style of rhetoric i could claim he doesnt. You focus on one or 2 vulnerabilities and use it as an excuse to prevent a nerf connected to an entirely different issue. Every hero has vulnerabilities. Even BP. Bringing up JJs dodge when we are talking about his over tuned dmg is similar in nature to bringing up Black priors bulwark counters gb weakness in an attempt to defend the glitches involved in his bash spam.

You are still concluding differently from what most people would say. You provide a lot of very good evidence and analysis to make your statements but you conclude still vastly different things, AND you always immediatly assume you know more than whoever you are talking to. Often admittingly you do know more thats evident, but man stop being so arrogant. And in all the subjects you've mentioned today i will have you know i was already aware of. Yes even jjs dodge weakness to gb.

Jj has good offense. His damage is above standard in many areas and it needs a nerf.

Btw if you read my musha reworks youll notice i call for a damage nerf for him too. I would love more versatility in his kit and would happily accept dmg nerfs in return. Im not just saying jj dmg is high cause i hate him. Im saying it cause its a fact just like its a fact that mushas dmg is high. And btw musha has a lot less going for him in a duel imo than JJ

Your logic style has been red herring this whole time in our debate. We talk about dmg and options you talk about vulnerabilities and defense and use it as an excuse to keep his damage where its at.

I have never asked for a nerf to his movements or versatility. I have asked for a nerf to his dmg and sometimes to his stam gain in sifu. But i refute your style of logic because it is not connected to that issue. (Directly at least)

One final admission. I did bring up some of his movements first. It was in response to raime saying he had no offence which i still strongly disagree with. I should have back then just said. "IMO his offence is strong and lets talk about his dmg which is above the norm for his relative speeds and advantages" if we can somehow bring it back lets talk more about that

Sweaty_Sock
03-09-2019, 01:40 AM
Just to add - yes bashes going back to how they used to be, however his dodge attack has some extended attribute that means... he functioned like this BEFORE the bash debarcle

Edit: I don't like calling for a nerf hammer but @ Raime, I have issues picking up characters I know nothing about and smacking rep 48+ mains

Knight_Raime
03-09-2019, 02:20 AM
I've never said your opinion is JJ is garbage.
At the end we both says he is the strongest 4v4 char.
But it looks fine to you, not To me. That's all.

I like fair things.
So i dont care if a char is very strong, we always gonna have a first and a last char. But my opinion is JJ is the one for bad reasons, like his dmg above others, his abnormal aoe and feats. This is not fair.



I'm pretty aware for what reasons this list is made like that. That's why i've said i dont care about these list.

But as you always use the competitive bracket as a mirror of the state of balance, this is it.

I can agree his feats are too good. Damage I can't really say either way. I don't often look into risk versus reward from a numbers perspective let alone compare it to other kits. All I can say is I don't care if it's left alone or nerfed. Wouldn't change what his kit is to me.

Knight_Raime
03-09-2019, 02:24 AM
Im with sieg here. Raime im aware you think hes strong. And some of the stuff you provide such as your analysis of his side dodges vulneribility is good.

Also an admittance i play primarily aramusha in duels. Who has the slowest in lock movement speed in the game. This means (although i have not tested it myself yet and may later today) that corning or grtting a jj into cc is a near impossibility for me, which may explain my strong feelings on the subject.

With regards to sieg you are again reading into his knowledge incorrectly assuming he doesnt understand the tier list.

And as far as your response to me, of course i dont think those things about berserker. I know he has good offense. But using your style of rhetoric i could claim he doesnt. You focus on one or 2 vulnerabilities and use it as an excuse to prevent a nerf connected to an entirely different issue. Every hero has vulnerabilities. Even BP. Bringing up JJs dodge when we are talking about his over tuned dmg is similar in nature to bringing up Black priors bulwark counters gb weakness in an attempt to defend the glitches involved in his bash spam.

You are still concluding differently from what most people would say. You provide a lot of very good evidence and analysis to make your statements but you conclude still vastly different things, AND you always immediatly assume you know more than whoever you are talking to. Often admittingly you do know more thats evident, but man stop being so arrogant. And in all the subjects you've mentioned today i will have you know i was already aware of. Yes even jjs dodge weakness to gb.

Jj has good offense. His damage is above standard in many areas and it needs a nerf.

Btw if you read my musha reworks youll notice i call for a damage nerf for him too. I would love more versatility in his kit and would happily accept dmg nerfs in return. Im not just saying jj dmg is high cause i hate him. Im saying it cause its a fact just like its a fact that mushas dmg is high. And btw musha has a lot less going for him in a duel imo than JJ

Your logic style has been red herring this whole time in our debate. We talk about dmg and options you talk about vulnerabilities and defense and use it as an excuse to keep his damage where its at.

I have never asked for a nerf to his movements or versatility. I have asked for a nerf to his dmg and sometimes to his stam gain in sifu. But i refute your style of logic because it is not connected to that issue. (Directly at least)

One final admission. I did bring up some of his movements first. It was in response to raime saying he had no offence which i still strongly disagree with. I should have back then just said. "IMO his offence is strong and lets talk about his dmg which is above the norm for his relative speeds and advantages" if we can somehow bring it back lets talk more about that

I can agree that sometimes my responses come off wrong because of how short they might be. I try to summarize because i've been called out more than once for "wordy replies." If length is not an issue for you then next time we disagree on something I can do my best to tackle parts individually and be more detailed to what I mean that way my sentiment isn't misunderstood. At the end of it all you and Sig think he has some kind of effective offense. I disagree. What I see as offense isn't what he's got. You both seem to think his damage profile is a problem and want it changed. I'm indifferent to it.

I wasn't attempting to explain why his damage should stay as is. Merely stating due to how I see his kit I don't think how much damage he does is really relevant to his overall strengths.

Vendelkin
03-09-2019, 03:55 AM
I wasn't attempting to explain why his damage should stay as is. Merely stating due to how I see his kit I don't think how much damage he does is really relevant to his overall strengths.

Yeah and im sorry i got so lengthy with my wordplay here in this discussion. And i really shouldnt judge for wordy replies cause i obviously do it too. Anyways im going to stop talking about jj at this point. You've made some very good clear statements about his weaknesses ill just be interested to see what comes of him in the future. I have him at rep 3 now but i need to feel him out more in combat anyways before i could propose a detailed rework buff or nerf wise.

Till the next discussion guys! Btw i am honestly impressed with the discussion regardless of disagreements.

Sekiro...
03-09-2019, 06:48 AM
Its always the same story...

Is JJ your main/actual character?
NO: he is op, he is unsynchronized, he have a huge win/lose rate, he have too much damage
YES: he is not op, he is fine, git gud, he is easy for me, very balanced hero

Sweaty_Sock
03-09-2019, 11:03 AM
Its always the same story...

Is JJ your main/actual character?
NO: he is op, he is unsynchronized, he have a huge win/lose rate, he have too much damage
YES: he is not op, he is fine, git gud, he is easy for me, very balanced hero

Unless you play alot of characters? He's utterly OP right now... I didn't want to state so until i'd given it a red hot crack, but the guys damage, unblockables, range, speed, variable dodge (not even its attacks just trying to hit it) tank level HP, HA, & that crazy stamina regen are all.....

Hers a question. Whats he bad at?

Devils-_-legacy
03-09-2019, 04:26 PM
Unless you play alot of characters? He's utterly OP right now... I didn't want to state so until i'd given it a red hot crack, but the guys damage, unblockables, range, speed, variable dodge (not even its attacks just trying to hit it) tank level HP, HA, & that crazy stamina regen are all.....

Hers a question. Whats he bad at?

1v1

Sweaty_Sock
03-09-2019, 07:57 PM
1v1

Haha, no & no

Siegfried-Z
03-09-2019, 09:22 PM
Till the next discussion guys! Btw i am honestly impressed with the discussion regardless of disagreements.

Hopefully we are among people here able to discuss without starting a flame for any disagreements ;)

UbiInsulin
03-09-2019, 10:04 PM
Probably worth linking the 2.06 patch notes for the Soothing Mist changes: https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-us/news-community/152-345316-16/patch-notes-2060 .



Soothing Mist

Healing values:

If 0 nearby enemies: 10 HP (from 25 HP)
If 1 nearby enemies: 15 HP (from 40 HP)
If 2 nearby enemies: 20 HP (from 55 HP)
If 3 nearby enemies: 25 HP (from 70 HP)
If 4 nearby enemies: 30 HP (from 85 HP)


Cool down increased to 120s (from 60s).


Thanks everyone for keeping this discussion on the right side of the passion --> flaming continuum. I'll be passing this thread to the team.

Vendelkin
03-09-2019, 10:07 PM
Hopefully we are among people here able to discuss without starting a flame for any disagreements ;)

Ehhhhh admitingly ive screwed up on that front a few times :)

Siegfried-Z
03-09-2019, 11:19 PM
Probably worth linking the 2.06 patch notes for the Soothing Mist changes: https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-us/news-community/152-345316-16/patch-notes-2060 .

Thanks everyone for keeping this discussion on the right side of the passion --> flaming continuum. I'll be passing this thread to the team.

Thanks. Already saw it.
That's not enough imo but anyway that's a beginning ^^

It would be interesting if the devs during one Den or a mod here could give an explanation about JJ dmg ?
I mean, we dont know why does he has higher dmg than all others, even other tanks.
That's a real question.


Ehhhhh admitingly ive screwed up on that front a few times :)

Dont worry we all already screw up at this ^^

Sweaty_Sock
03-10-2019, 03:40 AM
Soothing mist isnt really the issue... its this

What was he designed to do? BP, bashing as he is, at least has a clear design concept. JJ is... a heavy with full hp, stamina recovery, stamina drain on parry, massive OOS punishers, and a dodge attack mixup paired with HA and hard hits/unblockables.

Whats his design? Is he a nible heavy? If so why the brute force & hp pool? Is he jack of all trades? Why then the unique moves?