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View Full Version : Very simple buffs for Kensei, Highlander and Nobushi



Liduras
03-06-2019, 07:29 PM
These heroes only need a few simple buffs to be viable against S tier heroes and high level players. I think they should get these buff suggestions:


Kensei:

1) Give his top heavy opener hyperarmor at the last 500 ms.

2) Make his light attacks 500 ms.

Reasons:

1)It is too easy to hit him out of his top heavy mixup. Kensei used to be known as the most balanced hero, but the new heroes and reworked heroes outclassed him. He needs this simple buff to be viable at high level again.

2) 600 ms light attacks are only free parry.


Highlander:

1) Give his kick enough tracking to hit the players who walk back.

2) Make his OS heavy soft feint into OS light work from every direction.

3) Make his defensive stance light attacks 500 ms.

4) Reduce the stamina cost of his OS lights to 20.

Reasons:

1) First of all, the kick into grab is not a real 50/50. If you dodge at the kick timing, you either get a free GB or roll the grab and reset the fight. If you decide to dodge at grab timing, you either get a free GB or get hit by the kick and take 40 damage. The chance it is countered with a GB is two times higher than the chance it deals 40 damage. Also, most heroes have some moves that can counter it without walking back. Even if the kick had more tracking, the kick into grab would still be much weaker than some unreactable moves from neutral (Warden SB, Conqueror SB, Zerker light attacks,...).

2) The OS heavy feint into OS light is the most useless move in the game. It should work from all directions to be less useless.

3) Nonfeintable 600 ms light are only free parry and should be 500 ms. The "crushing counter" is basically a hard to use parry punish in most situations, and it only works against a few specific moves. It is not an excuse to make his light attacks a free parry.

4) Highlander's OS lights are his only good offence in 1 vs 1 against good players. It needs less stamina cost because some much stronger unreactable moves cost approximately same or less amount of stamina.


Nobushi:

1) Make her HS kick 500 ms.

2) Make her light attacks 500 ms.

3) Remove the stamina regen delay after HS.

Reasons:

1) Nobushi has no way to attack a turtle.

2) 600 ms light attack are free parry.

3) HS already costs enough stamina. The stamina regen delay is unnecessary.

Klingentaenz3r
03-06-2019, 07:52 PM
I give you a solid thumbs up on everything.

Knight_Raime
03-06-2019, 08:49 PM
Kensei:

Yes all of his lights should be 500ms. But no to the armor. Kensei can already counter that by dash canceling into the attack for a free GB. (though i'm not sure this will be the case once they remove 0ms start up on superior block properties.) The problem with the mix up is that because you can option select him out of the mix up it makes said mix up limited in its use. The better fix is giving pommel a variable input. The devs are unlikely to do this because they for some reason don't like variable input soft feints (but it still exists on raider for whatever reason.) so if the devs are unwilling to do this then the next best fix would be to make the top heavy faster. This shortens up the mix up window but also makes it harder to option select.
Beyond those changes kensei's nature's wrath needs to be faster and given the undodgable property so it actually works as a roll catcher like it's supposed to be.


Highlander:

They are universalizing locked on walk speed which would fix the issue for highlander as well as other heros. considering you can use emote canceling to shorten ballors might animation and hide your guard switch direction there is no reason for giving that soft feint an omni directional input. I'd rather they further reduce the stamina cost of the OF light and also give it a bit more range instead. Making his lights 500ms are a good call as well. As good as these fixes are it won't change where he sits. Because his "viability" is entirely dependent on match ups. if he fights someone who has an easy out against his offensive form Highlander can't do anything. If he fights someone who doesn't then highlander always wins. So if these changes are meant to polish him that's fine. But if you're attempting to make him more viable than redesign is what has to happen.


Nobushi:

Agree with 500ms lights. kick being 500ms would either do nothing or make it extremely strong. She can already delay the input on kick rather well and she already has 2 different kick timings depending on what was used prior to the input of her kick. You also need to know that kick is capable of splatting. People know this means walls but it also means other players. She has some of the highest possible damage punishes because of this. So making the kick stronger/safer is a very questionable thing to do.

Removing her stamina pause would absolutely make the character busted. Hidden stance, dodge into hidden stance, and dodge out of hidden stance in combination make it REALLY difficult to punish her. Hidden stance by itself is incredibly strong because you can option select with it on top of CGB in it. In fact if you get Gbed in the start up of hidden stance and you CGB you don't even take the stamina pause penalty. Further more dodge into hidden stance or vise versa is basically giving you the window of I frames equivalent of dodge into unlock roll. Which is why it's so good at avoiding mix ups. And finally, hidden stancing remembers the guard direction you were last in and dodging out of it in the direction of your guard makes you guard in that direction instantly.
So say you are fighting berzerker and notice he attacks from your left a lot. you switch your guard in that direction and then hidden stance to avoid the follow up attack. Zerk notices this and tries to combo hit you from the left but you dodge out of hidden stance into the attack. You've blocked the comboed hit.

Nobushi is a very good very weird character. She would need a lot of adjustments to streamline her. I'm not against the idea of removing the stamina penalty. I want that to happen. But the devs will need to nerf hidden stance pretty hard for that to be a thing. Her damage numbers might even need adjusting. And they'ed need to find a way to buff her significantly in the offense department to compensate for how hard they'ed be hitting her.

Ubiflowessence
03-06-2019, 10:38 PM
Cool ideas/suggestions you guys are sharing! I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.

I honestly haven't seen a lot of feedback on Kensei recently so I wonder if everyone thinks he's fine as is?

Knight_Raime
03-06-2019, 11:20 PM
Cool ideas/suggestions you guys are sharing! I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.

I honestly haven't seen a lot of feedback on Kensei recently so I wonder if everyone thinks he's fine as is?

To most players he's considered "the perfect" hero in terms of balance. But most are not aware of his flaws.
Being poor mid chain pressure, Natures wrath being a dead move, and his pommel mix up being a little weak.
He's basically favored because nothing is inherently spammy or oppressive about him other than maybe his dodge attack.

Liduras
03-07-2019, 05:57 PM
Kensei:

Yes all of his lights should be 500ms. But no to the armor. Kensei can already counter that by dash canceling into the attack for a free GB. (though i'm not sure this will be the case once they remove 0ms start up on superior block properties.) The problem with the mix up is that because you can option select him out of the mix up it makes said mix up limited in its use. The better fix is giving pommel a variable input. The devs are unlikely to do this because they for some reason don't like variable input soft feints (but it still exists on raider for whatever reason.) so if the devs are unwilling to do this then the next best fix would be to make the top heavy faster. This shortens up the mix up window but also makes it harder to option select.
Beyond those changes kensei's nature's wrath needs to be faster and given the undodgable property so it actually works as a roll catcher like it's supposed to be.


Highlander:

They are universalizing locked on walk speed which would fix the issue for highlander as well as other heros. considering you can use emote canceling to shorten ballors might animation and hide your guard switch direction there is no reason for giving that soft feint an omni directional input. I'd rather they further reduce the stamina cost of the OF light and also give it a bit more range instead. Making his lights 500ms are a good call as well. As good as these fixes are it won't change where he sits. Because his "viability" is entirely dependent on match ups. if he fights someone who has an easy out against his offensive form Highlander can't do anything. If he fights someone who doesn't then highlander always wins. So if these changes are meant to polish him that's fine. But if you're attempting to make him more viable than redesign is what has to happen.


Nobushi:

Agree with 500ms lights. kick being 500ms would either do nothing or make it extremely strong. She can already delay the input on kick rather well and she already has 2 different kick timings depending on what was used prior to the input of her kick. You also need to know that kick is capable of splatting. People know this means walls but it also means other players. She has some of the highest possible damage punishes because of this. So making the kick stronger/safer is a very questionable thing to do.

Removing her stamina pause would absolutely make the character busted. Hidden stance, dodge into hidden stance, and dodge out of hidden stance in combination make it REALLY difficult to punish her. Hidden stance by itself is incredibly strong because you can option select with it on top of CGB in it. In fact if you get Gbed in the start up of hidden stance and you CGB you don't even take the stamina pause penalty. Further more dodge into hidden stance or vise versa is basically giving you the window of I frames equivalent of dodge into unlock roll. Which is why it's so good at avoiding mix ups. And finally, hidden stancing remembers the guard direction you were last in and dodging out of it in the direction of your guard makes you guard in that direction instantly.
So say you are fighting berzerker and notice he attacks from your left a lot. you switch your guard in that direction and then hidden stance to avoid the follow up attack. Zerk notices this and tries to combo hit you from the left but you dodge out of hidden stance into the attack. You've blocked the comboed hit.

Nobushi is a very good very weird character. She would need a lot of adjustments to streamline her. I'm not against the idea of removing the stamina penalty. I want that to happen. But the devs will need to nerf hidden stance pretty hard for that to be a thing. Her damage numbers might even need adjusting. And they'ed need to find a way to buff her significantly in the offense department to compensate for how hard they'ed be hitting her.

You got good points. But i want to talk more about Nobushi. For Nobushi, i suggested to make only the Hidden Stance kick 500 ms while keeping the chained kicks 600 ms. Devs said that the dodge buff was "unintended" and it will be fixed. Without that dodge buff, 500 ms bashes are very hard to react. Making Nobushi's kick from Hidden Stance 500 ms would give her a good opener. As you said, spamming hidden stance and dodge without a stamina pause may be OP. But i still think the stamina pause after the hidden stance kick should be removed.

Btw, the purpose of these buffs is to make them viable at high level without big changes that would be hard to code.

rottmeister
03-07-2019, 06:10 PM
Can we also make Nobushi's dead move "Swift recoil" un-useless? I'd lke to use it more, but I usually get hit through it. I'd like it to have i-frames, the move doesn't even guarantee anything yet you can get hit yourself.

Knight_Raime
03-07-2019, 06:59 PM
You got good points. But i want to talk more about Nobushi. For Nobushi, i suggested to make only the Hidden Stance kick 500 ms while keeping the chained kicks 600 ms. Devs said that the dodge buff was "unintended" and it will be fixed. Without that dodge buff, 500 ms bashes are very hard to react. Making Nobushi's kick from Hidden Stance 500 ms would give her a good opener. As you said, spamming hidden stance and dodge without a stamina pause may be OP. But i still think the stamina pause after the hidden stance kick should be removed.

Btw, the purpose of these buffs is to make them viable at high level without big changes that would be hard to code.

I can only agree to buffing the speed on either kick if we reduce the damage she does overall via way of the shark. Both kicks afaik splat people. Which lets her hit in the 80-90's in terms of max punishes If her kick remains as flexible as is with splatting AND gets a speed buff she has to take a hit somewhere. The supposed changes I mentioned for Kensei would be better for that. And HL is already viable at high level play. These buffs would be nice QoL things. But they won't make him overall much better because of how his effectiveness is entirely match up reliant.


Can we also make Nobushi's dead move "Swift recoil" un-useless? I'd lke to use it more, but I usually get hit through it. I'd like it to have i-frames, the move doesn't even guarantee anything yet you can get hit yourself.

Swift recoil isn't really a dead move. it's just a niche one. The two situations you can use it in are at the end of someone's combo or when you're at the edge of your effective range but can still block a hit. In both cases you're looking to disengage. So you'd use that extra gap you just made and unlock roll to get away completely. If you're 100% aware of how someone plays you can technically use it more in an aggressive manner by using it at the end of someone's mix up. This allows you to keep the distance between Bushi and her opponent. Which is valuable against hero's with poor range. it lets you poke them in some manner if they try to be reckless when approaching you or trying to bait you.

rottmeister
03-08-2019, 12:39 AM
Swift recoil isn't really a dead move. it's just a niche one. The two situations you can use it in are at the end of someone's combo or when you're at the edge of your effective range but can still block a hit. In both cases you're looking to disengage. So you'd use that extra gap you just made and unlock roll to get away completely. If you're 100% aware of how someone plays you can technically use it more in an aggressive manner by using it at the end of someone's mix up. This allows you to keep the distance between Bushi and her opponent. Which is valuable against hero's with poor range. it lets you poke them in some manner if they try to be reckless when approaching you or trying to bait you.

Tbh, didn't think about that, lol. It is very situational though, quite a few characters have unblockable chain finishers making it fairly impossible to use effectively. So yeah, it would come down to reads if you were to ever use it. I have made it work several times, but I could probably count it on one hand.

Sweaty_Sock
03-08-2019, 09:42 AM
But all 3 characters are already viable?

Kensei zone gives a 500ms heavy... his other moves are nice mixups

Highlanders soft feint lights are to counter parry attempts or ppl trying to intercept you by interrupting your attacks

Nobu takes a unique mindset but is very, very good if used in her unique way

note to add: if every character has every option they'd all be in the JJ boat right now.

MrB3NX
03-08-2019, 11:06 AM
you want more light spammers ?

are you blind enough to see how many annoying light spammers we already have on our roaster ???

those who have 400ms should all be adjusted to 500

and so for 500 to be 600

600 is reasonable , if you hate being parried then feint

Also i don't agree with any of your kick suggestion for both HL + NB

your whole post makes no sense , adapt and stop demanding what could damage other players .

.

MrB3NX
03-08-2019, 11:10 AM
But all 3 characters are already viable?

Kensei zone gives a 500ms heavy... his other moves are nice mixups

Highlanders soft feint lights are to counter parry attempts or ppl trying to intercept you by interrupting your attacks

Nobu takes a unique mindset but is very, very good if used in her unique way

note to add: if every character has every option they'd all be in the JJ boat right now.

I agree with you sir

the OP is probably some bronze tier player .

.

rottmeister
03-08-2019, 12:19 PM
you want more light spammers ?

are you blind enough to see how many annoying light spammers we already have on our roaster ???

those who have 400ms should all be adjusted to 500

and so for 500 to be 600

600 is reasonable , if you hate being parried then feint

Also i don't agree with any of your kick suggestion for both HL + NB

your whole post makes no sense , adapt and stop demanding what could damage other players .

.

You can't feint a light attack, lol.
600 ms is not reasonable at all, it's a free parry most of the time, if you don't think it is maybe you're the bronze player and not OP?
What is wrong with suggesting some 'fine tuning' for certain characters? He's not asking for a Conq buff.
Some of his suggestions might make them broken (the hidden stance buff), but they need the 500ms lights imo.
I don't understand your "you want more light spammers ?" statement, 500ms lights can not be "spammed" effectively, you'd get parried immediately unless "the spammer" has a high latency which shouldn't be a deciding factor when balancing a character.
I'm on console too, but 600 ms lights are not viable in 1vs1. Nobushi would be hard to rework without her ending up broken due to her Hidden Stance.

Col.Bullet
03-08-2019, 06:58 PM
An interesting thread. Very constructive.
And yes, MrB3NX, it is completely ok to discuss changes to characters, who are generally considered viable. Because they're used more probabely by high tier players inconsistencies and small details become easier apparent.
Might I also say that I am very happy to see 500 ms lights as a reasonable standard. They can be used but not abused and potentially defended against with average reaction times.

Knight_Raime
03-08-2019, 07:25 PM
Tbh, didn't think about that, lol. It is very situational though, quite a few characters have unblockable chain finishers making it fairly impossible to use effectively. So yeah, it would come down to reads if you were to ever use it. I have made it work several times, but I could probably count it on one hand.

Yeah it's totally a niche move. Though I worry if they did buff it that it might make her even more of a balance problem.


But all 3 characters are already viable?

Kensei zone gives a 500ms heavy... his other moves are nice mixups

Highlanders soft feint lights are to counter parry attempts or ppl trying to intercept you by interrupting your attacks

Nobu takes a unique mindset but is very, very good if used in her unique way

note to add: if every character has every option they'd all be in the JJ boat right now.

Every hero is viable in general gameplay. That's not saying much. All heros can be adjusted in some manner as well.
The point of adjusting the heros named in this case is to make them a bit more capable at higher play. Which is important.


An interesting thread. Very constructive.
And yes, MrB3NX, it is completely ok to discuss changes to characters, who are generally considered viable. Because they're used more probabely by high tier players inconsistencies and small details become easier apparent.
Might I also say that I am very happy to see 500 ms lights as a reasonable standard. They can be used but not abused and potentially defended against with average reaction times.

B3NX is a borderline troll. There is no reason to attempt a legitimate conversation with them.

MrB3NX
03-08-2019, 08:43 PM
You can't feint a light attack, lol.
600 ms is not reasonable at all, it's a free parry most of the time, if you don't think it is maybe you're the bronze player and not OP?
What is wrong with suggesting some 'fine tuning' for certain characters? He's not asking for a Conq buff.
Some of his suggestions might make them broken (the hidden stance buff), but they need the 500ms lights imo.
I don't understand your "you want more light spammers ?" statement, 500ms lights can not be "spammed" effectively, you'd get parried immediately unless "the spammer" has a high latency which shouldn't be a deciding factor when balancing a character.
I'm on console too, but 600 ms lights are not viable in 1vs1. Nobushi would be hard to rework without her ending up broken due to her Hidden Stance.

is that how you got it ?

feint a heavy then thrust a light

must i explain every bit ?

rottmeister
03-09-2019, 12:00 AM
is that how you got it ?

feint a heavy then thrust a light

must i explain every bit ?

That was more of a sarcastic response since I added the "lol" but ok.


No

You

Don't

have to explain every bit, I'm not going to do so either, because you've already skipped 90% of my points and just looked at the first line.

500 ms lights are not a problem and if someone manages to "spam" 500 ms lights on you from 100% health all the way down to 0, it's a git gud problem.

MrB3NX
03-09-2019, 04:20 AM
That was more of a sarcastic response since I added the "lol" but ok.


No

You

Don't

have to explain every bit, I'm not going to do so either, because you've already skipped 90% of my points and just looked at the first line.

500 ms lights are not a problem and if someone manages to "spam" 500 ms lights on you from 100% health all the way down to 0, it's a git gud problem.

it's kinda a problem , if you got 500 ms you will probably rely on it and that's the issue

we want all heroes to have variety in combat , assassins barely do that and it must be fixed .

rottmeister
03-09-2019, 09:03 AM
it's kinda a problem , if you got 500 ms you will probably rely on it and that's the issue

we want all heroes to have variety in combat , assassins barely do that and it must be fixed .

The problem with making light attacks 600ms is that we'd return to the good 'ol days of staring matches. No one would get an attack in and the one that budged will get parried and will lose because the timer will run out. A lot of people would rather have faster attacks rather than staring matches. I'm fairly certain the following heroes have 600ms lights: Nobushi, Highlander, Kensei (sides), lawbringer and Raider. Raider is forced to play around with his zone mindgame because everything else is so slow. Nobushi is forced to turtle up, hidden stance and use her range to her advantage. Lawbringer... it's kind of obvious, he's forced to turtle up and make use of his great punishes. Kensei gets fairly predictable since he most likely either zones, top lights or feints top heavy into bash to open up an enemy. Highlanders usually immediately go into offensive stance because of how slow his regular attacks are. 600ms lights force your hero to either turtle up or abuse 1 certain aspect of their moveset because nothing else works.

The_Wanderer_I
03-09-2019, 09:31 AM
I agree with all of this. These changes give these heroes a small boost that they need

Sweaty_Sock
03-09-2019, 10:10 AM
Sorry to disagree but 500 MS attacks are a problem if uni formal - you all seem to be thinking about it from a neutral stance face off... the faster the lights the easier a misplay into a heavy will disrupt it... unless you want HA on all heavies more than 70% complete then this is a massive issue for the flow of active combat

500ms attacks beat out many, many heavy attacks, generally by accident or blind striking and hoping...

Goat_of_Vermund
03-09-2019, 10:41 AM
500ms attacks only beat heavies if you throw them instantly after seeing an indicator. On an avarage 900ms heavy, you have 300ms to throw a light- 400 if it's okay for you that your light will trade with that heavy. This requires better reaction time than what you need in order to parry a 400ms light. While you don't have to care about the direction, it is still unreactable, I doubt you have time to see if it is indeed a heavy, if you try to do this on a light, it will hit, even if only 600ms. The only time this tactic has viability is when you throw it against a very slow, not hyperarmored attack (raider zone or lawbringer jj&e heavy finisher). Luck comes to play when the opponent throws something and your light catches it, though we can consider it prediction. If he doesn't throw anything, there is a good chance your light is parried.
I mainly play pk around gold, and even there, my 500ms attacks are parried quite often, I get them in if I feint first or predict a gb/heavy attempt. 600ms, on the other hand, is absolutely pathetic, even if you are not always parried, I don't think there is any possibility for it to not be blocked.

MrB3NX
03-09-2019, 11:18 AM
The problem with making light attacks 600ms is that we'd return to the good 'ol days of staring matches. No one would get an attack in and the one that budged will get parried and will lose because the timer will run out. A lot of people would rather have faster attacks rather than staring matches. I'm fairly certain the following heroes have 600ms lights: Nobushi, Highlander, Kensei (sides), lawbringer and Raider. Raider is forced to play around with his zone mindgame because everything else is so slow. Nobushi is forced to turtle up, hidden stance and use her range to her advantage. Lawbringer... it's kind of obvious, he's forced to turtle up and make use of his great punishes. Kensei gets fairly predictable since he most likely either zones, top lights or feints top heavy into bash to open up an enemy. Highlanders usually immediately go into offensive stance because of how slow his regular attacks are. 600ms lights force your hero to either turtle up or abuse 1 certain aspect of their moveset because nothing else works.

i have been there during launch , i don't remember anyone complaining about the gameplay
they were all complaining about the technical issues

highlander should not be slow and average , he must not rely on offensive form , his normal attacks should deal more damage considering how slow he is

his kick grab combo is very annoying .

rottmeister
03-09-2019, 11:28 AM
i have been there during launch , i don't remember anyone complaining about the gameplay
they were all complaining about the technical issues

highlander should not be slow and average , he must not rely on offensive form , his normal attacks should deal more damage considering how slow he is

his kick grab combo is very annoying .

So the "turtle meta" wasn't a thing?

Not going to lie, but his kick into grab can be really annoying. Upping the damage of his regular attacks isn't going to make them more viable, or else Aramusha would've actually been a really good character. HL can already kill an assassin with 3 Offensive Stance heavies, that's enough.

EDIT: why do I suck at explaining? I meant to say that making a heavy attack do more damage isn't going to make an unviable move viable. It still remains slow and easy to react to. Aramusha's buff to his damage wasn't what he needed and so he's still seen as one of the weakest characters ingame by a lot of people. I guess we disagree on the 500 vs 600 ms debate. i do think 400 ms lights are needed but they should be less accessible. I'm fine with them being a chain starter but having a full chain of 400 ms lights is just asking for backlash *cough* Nuxia *cough*. Even though I deflected two 400ms attacks by Nuxia in 1 round *humble brag* (no, this wasn't necessary, sorry not sorry :p )

As the community learned to play the game better and better, older things that worked stopped working. you wouldn't get away with half of the stuff you could a year ago. The skill level of the community is ever evolving. I don't think it's a good idea to slow down 500 ms lights to 600 ms because that would scrap the ability of heroes to get into their mix ups. If most characters got 600 ms lights, they would be forced to turtle up because not every character has a great way opening up enemies. This would result in the comeback of the 'turtle' meta if there even was such a thing. I don't remember it but I saw it mentioned a lot. I have been playing since season 3 year 1 so not exactly since release.

MrB3NX
03-10-2019, 12:00 PM
So the "turtle meta" wasn't a thing?
.

it was

but it wasn't a main issue during the first + second season

after they fixed the servers which happened at season five , players started complaining about the turtle meta and it got worked on for the following seasons

that is almost a year after launch .

Goat_of_Vermund
03-10-2019, 12:44 PM
It was a problem in season 1. Especially since some attacks gave free gbs even on block.

rottmeister
03-10-2019, 01:19 PM
it was

but it wasn't a main issue during the first + second season

after they fixed the servers which happened at season five , players started complaining about the turtle meta and it got worked on for the following seasons

that is almost a year after launch .

Ok, thanks.

However I still disagree on slowing down 400ms lights to 500ms and 500ms lights to 600ms. this would imo destroy the flow of a duel. If it was possible to slow down 400ms attacks to 450ms, I'd be fine with that, but not every attack is meant to be ez reactable. On the other hand Nuxia shouldn't have a chain full of them. The problem with making her lights all 500ms is that she'd be extremely dependent on her traps which aren't hard to react to. the problem with slowing down attacks is how stupidly easy it is to parry them after you get used to it.

Sweaty_Sock
03-10-2019, 02:57 PM
I never had an issue with the turtle meta, more ppl stood their and took what i threw at them hoping to fish a parry until they died

Now the meta is spam as fast as possible and hope they don't get that 50% luck parry

Vakris_One
03-10-2019, 05:40 PM
it was

but it wasn't a main issue during the first + second season

after they fixed the servers which happened at season five , players started complaining about the turtle meta and it got worked on for the following seasons

that is almost a year after launch .
This is a complete piece of misinformation. The turtle meta - which is the act of only reacting and punishing and never risking an attack of your own - was discovered by high level players as the best tactic available as early as the pre-launch beta testing. The devs were certainly made aware of this massive flaw in their combat system in Season 1.

In Season 2 the turtle meta was already a well known problem amongst the community. The Centurion was created by the devs with the express purpose of tackling the turtle meta by giving a character unblockable kicks and punches for the first time in the game's roster. The developers knew full well that turtling was going to be a problem before the game first launched.

They didn't suddenly start working on the turtle meta in Season 5, that's horribly innacurate. They already had been working on it for the past 4 Seasons. That's why they were able to release the parry changes that removed getting a guarranteed GB right at the start of Season 5.

Please check your facts before posting.

Knight_Raime
03-10-2019, 11:08 PM
Ok, thanks.

However I still disagree on slowing down 400ms lights to 500ms and 500ms lights to 600ms. this would imo destroy the flow of a duel. If it was possible to slow down 400ms attacks to 450ms, I'd be fine with that, but not every attack is meant to be ez reactable. On the other hand Nuxia shouldn't have a chain full of them. The problem with making her lights all 500ms is that she'd be extremely dependent on her traps which aren't hard to react to. the problem with slowing down attacks is how stupidly easy it is to parry them after you get used to it.

He's 100% wrong. Defense meta was a thing from the very beginning. it just wasn't truly "felt" by the average player base because people were still struggling to block basic strings. If you were a decent player at the game early on then you dealt with it since the beginning. People were just far more distracted with more "noticable" things. Like one person rage quitting tanking a match. Or pk revenge zone cancels turning her into a literal helicopter.

Defensive meta only became a community focused issue once the game itself became playable. Which is probably why B3NX thinks it wasn't a thing until season 5. Either that or he didn't begin to peak skill wise until 5 seasons in. Either way if you really dug for it you can find footage and threads talking about the defensive issue dating back to the beginnings of this game.

Sweaty_Sock
03-11-2019, 10:46 AM
He's 100% wrong. Defense meta was a thing from the very beginning.

I have to disagree - not over the issue of defence>offence, rather that its not a 'defensive meta'. A few changes to the guaranteed guard breaks I was 100% on board with, but the idea of 'defensive meta' is just plain wrong to me.

Its a problem with every game, and infact in reality, that its hard to act first against someone waiting for you. It wasn't a 'meta' its just the way of this game, and many others (it's infact why players of lower skill will opt to camp in many games, because it will let them compete against more skilled players).

The attempts to move it as a 'meta' results in the spam wave & unblockables that now riddle the game, and infact have done nothing to help deal with a player (i'm talking of high skill here) who will never act first, always second (keep distance, look for light interrupts or parrry's etc.).

Rather than accept this as an inherent real world phenomenon and incorporated ways to accept it, labeling it 'meta' just keeps getting things more and more spammy to the point where soon button mashing faster will equal a win - this would be the eventual conclusion of the current line of thinking on how to deal with it

I mean, look at many of the major real world combat sports and 'aggression' is a huge scoring factor, you can get smashed repeatably but if you were the one being aggressive and last the time, often the fight is awarded to that combatant as they took the risks during the fight

To me the solutions in duels would be something more along the lines of; if no damage has been dealt (by either party) in x time, one of the players gets an onus placed on them that damage must be dealt (to either player, so taking a hit attempting to fight will work) within x time or take %of total HP auto damage (to treat all hp pools fairly). This cycles between the players (bearing in mind this could be something as simple as chip damage).

This would get both parties taking risks & make the fights much more free flowing

Edit: just vsed a warden who refused to fight, outside of counters - I could obviously just stand there, but that is utterly boring so I lost overall as he held the advantage (wasn't just mindlessly spamming this, more the trades overall went in his favour - he had stopped trading properly with me as he was getting outplayed so resorted to being entirely reactive....)

MrB3NX
03-11-2019, 11:36 AM
.

I still disagree on slowing down 400ms lights to 500ms and 500ms lights to 600ms. this would imo destroy the flow of a duel..

Listen mate and i swear to god

I prefer going for a staring contest rather than a spamming contest .
.

I-Nibbiru-I
03-11-2019, 12:13 PM
Well put sir, we should all just




adapt and stop demanding what could damage other players

.

600ms light attacks are parry baits and dead pieces of kit that are no longer viable if you think that every opponent you face will fall for a heavy into (600ms) light feint I'm sorry to say but its you who's stuck on a Bronze tier mindset.
People who know how to feint a parry attempt or not even that but have semi-decent reflexes will block or (easy) parry your light then eat you alive.

So uhmm you know . . . adapt?

MrB3NX
03-11-2019, 01:14 PM
last knight when the orochi killed +40 of my team in breach and then losing to a close one while his only skill was light spamming

i felt nothing but anger upon this game

bashes are even worse

that's why i do my orders and spend my time on other worthy games .

Goat_of_Vermund
03-11-2019, 01:22 PM
Why do you care about orders if you don't even like the game anyway?

MrB3NX
03-11-2019, 04:58 PM
Why do you care about orders if you don't even like the game anyway?

to get those juicy gears

also the new axe man is around the corner

i have a good feeling that i will main him and will need a lot of steel for customizations .

Col.Bullet
03-13-2019, 11:17 AM
500 ms lights are ok, 400 ones not. At least not the way there used now. 600 ms get parried often on my level.