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View Full Version : The in-game heavy machine guns: UBS, Browning, MG131



Vrabac
06-01-2006, 06:18 AM
Ok, I made a bit of testing yesterday evening and today. Took 3 tracks, one for Russian UBS 12.7mm heavy machine gun, one for American Browning .50 HMG and one for German MG131 13.1mm HMG. For UBS i flew LaGG3 S66 and shot at 4 friendly Bf109G6. For Browning I flew P51B and shot at same friendly G6s, convergence 100 meters. And for MG131 I took G6 and shot at 4 friendly LaGG3 S66. Here are the tracks:

http://rapidshare.de/files/21928664/HMG.rar.html

I hope I don't have to explain what's the problem, do I? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Just keep in mind that LaGG3 has one single 12.7mm HMG, G6 has 2x13.1mm and P51B has 4x.50. Enjoy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Vrabac
06-01-2006, 06:18 AM
Ok, I made a bit of testing yesterday evening and today. Took 3 tracks, one for Russian UBS 12.7mm heavy machine gun, one for American Browning .50 HMG and one for German MG131 13.1mm HMG. For UBS i flew LaGG3 S66 and shot at 4 friendly Bf109G6. For Browning I flew P51B and shot at same friendly G6s, convergence 100 meters. And for MG131 I took G6 and shot at 4 friendly LaGG3 S66. Here are the tracks:

http://rapidshare.de/files/21928664/HMG.rar.html

I hope I don't have to explain what's the problem, do I? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Just keep in mind that LaGG3 has one single 12.7mm HMG, G6 has 2x13.1mm and P51B has 4x.50. Enjoy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BBB_Hyperion
06-01-2006, 06:28 AM
I am afraid you will have to explain.

Changing reference target is a bad idea .

Further comparing different gun mounting points , different beltings etc might not get the right impression.

jurinko
06-01-2006, 06:28 AM
drug hrvatski, we do not have FB installed at work. Tell us what´s inside?

Ok I will guess: 1xUBS is harder hitting than quad of Brownings or pair of MG131 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

UBS is teh ubergun in FB. Flat trajectory, no speed loss for the bullet, can you imagine P-47 with eight of them? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

ImpStarDuece
06-01-2006, 06:41 AM
Well, when it comes to HMGs the UB had pretty much all the aces.

Relatively low weight
Excellent reliability
High rate of fire
High muzzle velocity
Long, heavy projectile
High HE/Incendiary content round

If I was going to pick a HMG to arm any fighter, the UB would be it. By most measurements its about 20% more efficient than any other weapon in its class.

JG53Frankyboy
06-01-2006, 06:54 AM
gun table

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html

btw, glad you didnt tested the italian and japanese one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif you would have find "new" loosers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Vrabac
06-01-2006, 06:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Well, when it comes to HMGs the UB had pretty much all the aces.

Relatively low weight
Excellent reliability
High rate of fire
High muzzle velocity
Long, heavy projectile
High HE/Incendiary content round

If I was going to pick a HMG to arm any fighter, the UB would be it. By most measurements its about 20% more efficient than any other weapon in its class. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

20% more efficient? LOL. Take a look. One 109 lost a wing to 2 hits, another lost entire tail to 1. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Brownings were hitting and hitting and there was smoke and fire, and after really many hits plane broke in half. That seems more like machine gun to me. And those were hitting same target, G6, so no mistake there. UBS is about 10-20 TIMES more efficient than Browning. MG131 hitting LaGG3 is rather funny, no smokes at all until structural failure.

I mean, I always knew that UBS was strongest, but this is simply too much, it has basically same characteristic as Svak. And I'm not joking here. Sometimes yes, it takes maybe 10 hits to rip somehting into pieces, but often 2-3 are nough. IMHO the developers made UBS into Svak with different graphical effects.

Vrabac
06-01-2006, 07:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jurinko:
UBS is teh ubergun in FB. Flat trajectory, no speed loss for the bullet, can you imagine P-47 with eight of them? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Imagine FW190 with 4... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HayateAce
06-01-2006, 07:19 AM
Your conclusions are completely wrong. US .50 is undermodeled.

LEBillfish
06-01-2006, 07:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
btw, glad you didnt tested the italian and japanese one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif you would have find "new" loosers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What are you talking about????....With the two Type 1 12.7mm 'Ho-103' machine guns on the Ki-43-I, I routinely flip over Tiger tanks......
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Ok, well that might be a itsy bitsy lie.....Like saying I caught a Whale when it was a tadpole, but I bet it made the .50cal. whiners jealous http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

CMHQ_Rikimaru
06-01-2006, 07:46 AM
Dont worry Vrabac, lawyers and Olofans will eat youhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

m_u_s_k
06-01-2006, 07:48 AM
Dont worry Vrabac, you is wrong, talk with the specialists... They will straighten your mind:P

Vrabac
06-01-2006, 07:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CMHQ_Rikimaru:
Dont worry Vrabac, lawyers and Olofans will eat youhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know, I know. But I had to. It was just too funny watchin UBS do it's thing so I wanted to share. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hayateace, you were very helpful. That's really good to hear. So you say that Browning should be more like in-game UBS? Can you name ONE reason for mounting 8 of them on one plane in that case? Or even more than 2? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

m_u_s_k
06-01-2006, 07:56 AM
I remember my and rikimaru training. He was Flying FW190, I had lagg3. From 800 meters I was hitting him with no deflection - just pointing crosshair on his FW and fire. 100% efficiencyhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
Try to do this with Mg131

CMHQ_Rikimaru
06-01-2006, 08:06 AM
Musk u forgot - u hited me single, two times, first time i got PK, next time i lost controlshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

anarchy52
06-01-2006, 08:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vrabac:
So you say that Browning should be more like in-game UBS? Can you name ONE reason for mounting 8 of them on one plane in that case? Or even more than 2? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To kill Tigers? Sink the Bismarck?

Vrabac
06-01-2006, 08:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vrabac:
So you say that Browning should be more like in-game UBS? Can you name ONE reason for mounting 8 of them on one plane in that case? Or even more than 2? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To kill Tigers? Sink the Bismarck? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe sink Japan itself? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Brain32
06-01-2006, 09:06 AM
Planetary defense be sure...

Genie-
06-01-2006, 10:35 AM
and can you imagine russian pilots calling this fantastic plane (LaGG) flying coffen?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

And this plane is in IL2 from beggining (like bf109 also) but having such nonsence FM and DM.

No comments on that UBS, we are playing the a russian made game. Don't expect too much.

Vrabac
06-01-2006, 10:49 AM
It's not about LaGG3, but about it's 12.7mm http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Vrabac
06-01-2006, 11:43 AM
LOL why is it general discussion now? It's a BIG developement problem, and it deserves to be in ORR, not GD because someone in charge should take a look at it.

Brain32
06-01-2006, 11:55 AM
You still don't understand LOL? If you discovered MG131 was so strong, patch would be released in 5mins...

EDIT: OK, actually according to the rules in ORR all bug reports should be sent to PF@1C.ru, but anyway it seems that some threads can stay for discussion an some can not. I guess we were not serious enough for the thread to stay, sry...

Vrabac
06-01-2006, 12:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
You still don't understand LOL? If you discovered MG131 was so strong, patch would be released in 5mins... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know, but hope usually dies last. Ok it just did. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

tigertalon
06-01-2006, 01:13 PM
Pozdrav Vrabac!

Thank you for the effort. Just a remark on a metodology: why didn't you take, say, Yak9U, 109G and P39Q, they all have two similarly mounted guns. And it would be more convinient if you took the same target in all cases, as we are speaking about weapon modelling, not about DMs.

Just a tought.

carguy_
06-01-2006, 02:05 PM
UBB is by far the best machinegun in the game.Two of those beat 6x50cal,MG131 is a peashooter compared to it.

Take a Yak and hit 109 wing from 200m - you will see a big hole made by a 12.7mm projectile.

We don`t have gun overheat modelled mind you.

However I always though Russians had the best guns throughout the war.MG seems to confirm.

Anyway,the gun is enough to take any enemy out of the fight and good for downing bombers.

People flying red know well what it`s all about.In `41 we see Migs taking 12.7mm gunpods literally cutting Heinkels in half.Each Mig can score up to 4kills with UBB.


If you want to gain similar results with German/US MGs you must close into 50m range.


Reasumming,somehow all Soviet guns seem to be the best or close runner up in this game.I don`t have any idea if it`s correct but I wouldn`t suspect a single heavy machinegun causing so big structural damage.

Xiolablu3
06-01-2006, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vrabac:
LOL why is it general discussion now? It's a BIG developement problem, and it deserves to be in ORR, not GD because someone in charge should take a look at it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because its a BS test.

1.Take a plane with the same amount of HMGs
2.Shoot it at the SAME TARGET as all the rest from the same distance, at the same speed.
3. Observe results.
4. Repeat 100 times for each HMG


All the old timers know that the Lagg3 has a very old damage model that is almost impervious to Machine guns fire, its been tested many times before.

Cannon have been tested a few times (100 tests on each cannon by a forum member) and the Russian 20mm came out as weakest of the 3 cannons requiring more shots to kill on average than the others.

As for 50's being undermodelled, I have seen no evidence that convinces me of this, see the 50 cal thread posted earlier in General Discussion for why.

JG53Frankyboy
06-01-2006, 03:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
UBB is by far the best machinegun in the game.Two of those beat 6x50cal,MG131 is a peashooter compared to it.

Take a Yak and hit 109 wing from 200m - you will see a big hole made by a 12.7mm projectile.

We don`t have gun overheat modelled mind you.

However I always though Russians had the best guns throughout the war.MG seems to confirm.

Anyway,the gun is enough to take any enemy out of the fight and good for downing bombers.

People flying red know well what it`s all about.In `41 we see Migs taking 12.7mm gunpods literally cutting Heinkels in half.Each Mig can score up to 4kills with UBB.


If you want to gain similar results with German/US MGs you must close into 50m range.


Reasumming,somehow all Soviet guns seem to be the best or close runner up in this game.I don`t have any idea if it`s correct but I wouldn`t suspect a single heavy machinegun causing so big structural damage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFAIK the finns replaced the 20mm Hispanos in their MS406 with soviet UBS guns.... and were very satisfied with that.

Kocur_
06-01-2006, 04:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
AFAIK the finns replaced the 20mm Hispanos in their MS406 with soviet UBS guns.... and were very satisfied with that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you point any Finnish manufacturer of 20mm x 110 ammo for HS 404...? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

So I guess fact that in most DF servers there are Yak-3Ps instead of plain and really used in WW2 Yak-3s is actually a harm for their pilots http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Vrabac
06-01-2006, 04:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vrabac:
LOL why is it general discussion now? It's a BIG developement problem, and it deserves to be in ORR, not GD because someone in charge should take a look at it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because its a BS test.

1.Take a plane with the same amount of HMGs
2.Shoot it at the SAME TARGET as all the rest from the same distance, at the same speed.
3. Observe results.
4. Repeat 100 times for each HMG


All the old timers know that the Lagg3 has a very old damage model that is almost impervious to Machine guns fire, its been tested many times before.

Cannon have been tested a few times (100 tests on each cannon by a forum member) and the Russian 20mm came out as weakest of the 3 cannons requiring more shots to kill on average than the others.

As for 50's being undermodelled, I have seen no evidence that convinces me of this, see the 50 cal thread posted earlier in General Discussion for why. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooooh, here comes someone speaking with a lot of authority... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

1. It playes no role, since it's obvious that 1 UBS MG cuts things off more easily than 2 MG131 and 4 .50s. I was not going to measure exact absolute power of UBS, but to compare it to comparable weapons, and they somehow don't compare. Or they do? Maybe I'm blind.

2. In 2 of the tracks I did shoot at the same target. And it clearly shows relative power of UBS to .50. Forgive me but I really can't maintain speed and range easily, so I don't want to do it. It's not that important in my life. I just came there and shot at them, it's what i can do. Speeds and ranges were still relatively close anyway since targets were moving at same speeds so I'm sure speed and range played only minor role if any.

3. I did.

4. You repeat it 100 times for each HMG. Sounds quite funny, right? Here too I can say that I actually have a life out there, repeating it 100 times doesn't fit in. Maybe it's different for you.

5. (Bonus point) I really don't know why I bothered posting, I guess I should have known these forums aren't constructive at all. But you can call me dumb I guess.

I very well know that LaGG has a screwed up damage model (not old, 109 is old too and it's nowhere near), I've been here a while. But it's one track out of 3, and it's meant to serve as a reference since it's a very typical lineup, just as LaGG shooting at 109 and P51 shooting at 109 are.

This has nothing to do about cannons except my statement that UBS actually IS a cannon, just has different tracers and impact effects, but it's my guess and I said so.

I never said .50s are undermodelled. I said I think problem is in UBS, not .50 or MG131.

There you go. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
Pozdrav Vrabac!

Thank you for the effort. Just a remark on a metodology: why didn't you take, say, Yak9U, 109G and P39Q, they all have two similarly mounted guns. And it would be more convinient if you took the same target in all cases, as we are speaking about weapon modelling, not about DMs.

Just a tought. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pozdrav tigertalon. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You're right, but as I said all I wanted to do was to test the relative power, not absolute. This was my original indention and I was basically doing it for myself. Difference is even more obvious since 1 gun seems to be much more powerful than 4 guns of same caliber. I was simply shocked of the effect of one single UBS so I decided to post on ORR (my mystake http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif).

WTE_Galway
06-01-2006, 05:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
btw, glad you didnt tested the italian and japanese one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif you would have find "new" loosers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What are you talking about????....With the two Type 1 12.7mm 'Ho-103' machine guns on the Ki-43-I, I routinely flip over Tiger tanks......
.
.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I flip over King Tigers and the Ferdinand with 0.303's. I sunk a carrier once with .50 cal

You just have to learn to shoot more better like ... be sure.

Xiolablu3
06-01-2006, 05:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vrabac:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vrabac:
LOL why is it general discussion now? It's a BIG developement problem, and it deserves to be in ORR, not GD because someone in charge should take a look at it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because its a BS test.

1.Take a plane with the same amount of HMGs
2.Shoot it at the SAME TARGET as all the rest from the same distance, at the same speed.
3. Observe results.
4. Repeat 100 times for each HMG


All the old timers know that the Lagg3 has a very old damage model that is almost impervious to Machine guns fire, its been tested many times before.

Cannon have been tested a few times (100 tests on each cannon by a forum member) and the Russian 20mm came out as weakest of the 3 cannons requiring more shots to kill on average than the others.

As for 50's being undermodelled, I have seen no evidence that convinces me of this, see the 50 cal thread posted earlier in General Discussion for why. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooooh, here comes someone speaking with a lot of authority... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

1. It playes no role, since it's obvious that 1 UBS MG cuts things off more easily than 2 MG131 and 4 .50s. I was not going to measure exact absolute power of UBS, but to compare it to comparable weapons, and they somehow don't compare. Or they do? Maybe I'm blind.

2. In 2 of the tracks I did shoot at the same target. And it clearly shows relative power of UBS to .50. Forgive me but I really can't maintain speed and range easily, so I don't want to do it. It's not that important in my life. I just came there and shot at them, it's what i can do. Speeds and ranges were still relatively close anyway since targets were moving at same speeds so I'm sure speed and range played only minor role if any.

3. I did.

4. You repeat it 100 times for each HMG. Sounds quite funny, right? Here too I can say that I actually have a life out there, repeating it 100 times doesn't fit in. Maybe it's different for you.

5. (Bonus point) I really don't know why I bothered posting, I guess I should have known these forums aren't constructive at all. But you can call me dumb I guess.

I very well know that LaGG has a screwed up damage model (not old, 109 is old too and it's nowhere near), I've been here a while. But it's one track out of 3, and it's meant to serve as a reference since it's a very typical lineup, just as LaGG shooting at 109 and P51 shooting at 109 are.

This has nothing to do about cannons except my statement that UBS actually IS a cannon, just has different tracers and impact effects, but it's my guess and I said so.

I never said .50s are undermodelled. I said I think problem is in UBS, not .50 or MG131.

There you go. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
Pozdrav Vrabac!

Thank you for the effort. Just a remark on a metodology: why didn't you take, say, Yak9U, 109G and P39Q, they all have two similarly mounted guns. And it would be more convinient if you took the same target in all cases, as we are speaking about weapon modelling, not about DMs.

Just a tought. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pozdrav tigertalon. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You're right, but as I said all I wanted to do was to test the relative power, not absolute. This was my original indention and I was basically doing it for myself. Difference is even more obvious since 1 gun seems to be much more powerful than 4 guns of same caliber. I was simply shocked of the effect of one single UBS so I decided to post on ORR (my mystake http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SO if you cant be bothered to test properly, then why bother bringing it up?

You say its 'obvious' I find it incredibly hard to shoot anything with a UBS on a Yak and once I have run out of cannon I go home. So no, it isnt obvious.

'I shot 'this' with 'this' and it fell apart, I shot 'this' with 'this' and it didnt, that says 'this' must be overmodelled? DOesnt hold up for me.

By how much? On which planes? Your statement is so random are you surprised it got moved from ORR?

Next time, test properly and present a good case, otherwise I wouldn't bother, as it will be moved again as another useless post in ORR, drowning all the other work people do to try and get things more realistic.

I wasnt trying to sound authoratitive, just tell you why it got moved, as you seemed to be shocked.

VW-IceFire
06-01-2006, 05:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vrabac:
Ok, I made a bit of testing yesterday evening and today. Took 3 tracks, one for Russian UBS 12.7mm heavy machine gun, one for American Browning .50 HMG and one for German MG131 13.1mm HMG. For UBS i flew LaGG3 S66 and shot at 4 friendly Bf109G6. For Browning I flew P51B and shot at same friendly G6s, convergence 100 meters. And for MG131 I took G6 and shot at 4 friendly LaGG3 S66. Here are the tracks:

http://rapidshare.de/files/21928664/HMG.rar.html

I hope I don't have to explain what's the problem, do I? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Just keep in mind that LaGG3 has one single 12.7mm HMG, G6 has 2x13.1mm and P51B has 4x.50. Enjoy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I applaud the efforts to test but I think the test is flawed from the get go.

The LaGG-3 has a single UBS mounted on the cowling, the Bf109 has two MG131 on the cowling, and the P-51 has four Browning M2 .50cal on the wings. So suddenly the P-51 introduces the issue of convergence.

Select the P-38 if you want a 4 gun battery in the nose or the P-63 or P-39Q-10 if you want a two gun .50cal throught a prop to match the other two. Possibly use the Yak-9U with the twin UBS in the cowling as well so you have two heavy machine guns on each. Then ensure the target is identical in each and test away.

According to the gun tables...the UBS should be number one, followed by the .50cal, followed by the MG131 for hitting power. The UBS was the best heavy machine gun of WWII while the Browning was second place and by far more prolific in use and in flexibility.

DuxCorvan
06-01-2006, 05:51 PM
Vrabac, you can't ignore completely scientific method for your tests and expect them to be seriously considered. Even if you are right -and I think you may be- all that you are carrying here is subjective conclusions, based on an inconsistent and biased experiment.

You have admitted yourself that you're not willing to do it properly -this is, with a suficient number of equal tests to create a statistical proof, since a single try with different subjects and targets is a feeble evidence and doesn't prove anything at all.

Do it properly if you want to support your opinion, or don't do it, but realize that until then, this is just that: your -maybe right, maybe not- opinion.

Brain32
06-01-2006, 06:25 PM
Guys one thing is obvious, nobody of you actually watched the track did you? Ofcourse not, if you actually did you wouldn't talk like that. Vrabac is not kidding, one shot, read it again ONE SHOT as in ONE BULLET took out entire tail section of the Me109 and set it on fire!!! I rarely get such results with a Tempest, yes with 4x20mm Hispano equipped monster.

jimDG
06-01-2006, 06:48 PM
You can also have the Mig-3 with 2 UBS gunpods. It rules in that configuration - thats 3 UBS in total.

BTW, the il2s defensive armament was changed from Shkas to UBS precisely because it could be very effective against me109s. They actually did this in a factory despite Stalin, and named the new instalation FT ("front trebuet" = "the front needs it"), to avoid going to Siberia http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
The first engagement was when a group of 109s bounced 10 Il-2s from high and behind as they usually had up to that point with impunity. 2 went down immediately. It never happend again. ..Or so soviet history says.

Would anyone care to do a hangar test?
(taxi on the ground then shoot a hangar with different MGs and count how many bullets it takes for it to "blow" up)

JG53Frankyboy
06-01-2006, 06:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:

Can you point any Finnish manufacturer of 20mm x 110 ammo for HS 404...? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

.................. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

glad that they had enough ammo for all their other foreign guns.

ImpStarDuece
06-01-2006, 06:56 PM
I've been flying Hurricane Field Mod and Spitfire IXe missions against Il-2I's.

My conclusion is that the only difference I can see between the M2 and the UB, is that the Russian weapon has a flatter trajectory and better tracers.

I couldn't determine any significant difference between the M2 and the UB in terms of hitting power. In fact, I managed to dewing and chop in half more Il-2s with the Browning than I did with the UB.

If we really want to test the UB vs the M2, take an Il-2 and place it on a runway in FMB. Then put a target behind it for the gunner to shoot, say a 109 or a 190, as those are the most likely targets anyway. Do a couple of tests. Shoot the wing root until it falls off or something.

Then take a B-25 and do the same thing with one of the side gunners (or maybe the front gun?). Record the difference over a decent sample size, say dewinging 10 109s or 190s.

ImpStarDuece
06-01-2006, 06:58 PM
P.S. Is there any German A/C armed with a single defensive MG131 in the game?

JG53Frankyboy
06-01-2006, 07:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
P.S. Is there any German A/C armed with a single defensive MG131 in the game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no

Xiolablu3
06-01-2006, 07:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Guys one thing is obvious, nobody of you actually watched the track did you? Ofcourse not, if you actually did you wouldn't talk like that. Vrabac is not kidding, one shot, read it again ONE SHOT as in ONE BULLET took out entire tail section of the Me109 and set it on fire!!! I rarely get such results with a Tempest, yes with 4x20mm Hispano equipped monster. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then its just a one time freak occurance then Brain, dont you think?

How often have you shot away a tail section on a Me109 with one MG hit? I have never.

Maybe flak hit it at exactly the same time or something equally fraky happened? Who is to say?

Odd things happen in this game, odd things happen in real life.

I was coming up behind a ju88 the other day in a Spitfire and was 1000m away, too far to shoot, or so I thought. Next second, black screen. He had shot me in the forhead with one bullet from 1000m from his rear gun. Not the AI either, this was on WarCouds. I didnt even see him shoot, no tracer, nothing, just black screen.

If that was the AI I would have cried foul, but it was just a feaky occurance and a lucky shot.

KraljMatjaz
06-01-2006, 07:14 PM
Maybe flak hit you in the very same moment http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Xiolablu3
06-01-2006, 07:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KraljMatjaz:
Maybe flak hit you in the very same moment http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was well over my own lines http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Xiolablu3
06-01-2006, 07:28 PM
I have just tried this myself, and I shot off the tail of the first 109 I shot with the Lagg 66 UBS too.

I suggest others try it too, use the Lagg3 66 series just the UBS, and shoot a friendly 109. This needs to be tested properly, but I think this guy is onto something.

The tail section of the 109 just sort of blew up with a couple of shots. Just like the 2nd one in his track.

FritzGryphon
06-01-2006, 07:34 PM
This topic title tells me this thread is not worth reading, but I figured this may be helpful.

http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon3/compare.mov

It's a side by side comparison of the trajectory of the UBS and M2 machine gun bullets.

The final marker is 2km. The starting altitude is 100m.

The M2 round is faster, and this is correct to it's specifications.

The drop vs time is identical, as is expected.

The M2 has the added advantage of a longer bullet life. The UBS bullet vanishes after travelling 1.4km. The M2 round lives until it splashes down at the 2km marker.

If the UBS is more powerful, it's due to a larger shell or greater RoF.

ElAurens
06-01-2006, 08:11 PM
Vrabac, I believe if you re-word the title of the thread into a direct question to Oleg it would stay in ORR.

CMHQ_Rikimaru
06-01-2006, 11:09 PM
If anyone cannot shoot down BF109 with couple shoots from UBS like Vrabac, then sorry guys, u have to learn to shoothttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif There is nothing to proove, this track is just to show this HUGE difference. And i dont know what for im responding here, I will be flamed like Vrabac, and all guys that want to make this game more realistichttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FritzGryphon
06-01-2006, 11:46 PM
I agree wholeheartedly.

The damage model of the bf-109 is clearly undermodeled.

Genie-
06-02-2006, 12:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

All the old timers know that the Lagg3 has a very old damage model that is almost impervious to Machine guns fire, its been tested many times before. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

now if you are an old timer, you have probably noticed that BF109 is in this game from day one also, so what is your point?

Kocur_
06-02-2006, 01:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:

Can you point any Finnish manufacturer of 20mm x 110 ammo for HS 404...? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

.................. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

glad that they had enough ammo for all their other foreign guns. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In case they didnt, they replaced it with weapons, they could get ammo for. Soviet ammo suplier was RRKA itself, via Germans, who captured ENOURMOUS quantity of Soviet weaponry, ammo and all other equipment and sold Finns whatever they wanted. They did want guns and ammo and did not want, say MiG-3s... You dont belive, a UB was more effective than a Hispano, do you?

alert_1
06-02-2006, 02:01 AM
I afraid that Dm in our sim is largely nonconsistent. Just a few night ago I was shot in Me109G2 with La5. No other plane, no flak around. Was shot from my six and got shvak 20mm granades into my wondsield (???) and cockpit, mind you form my SIX! And I flyed happily after, escape and land! Yesterday I shot down Me109 with Yak1 with only short burst of MG (out of cannon amo), 109 spined and crashed imediately....

CaptainGelo
06-02-2006, 02:03 AM
call the wuambulance!!!!



btw, when you see 1 bullet, it doesnt mean you fired one, as not all have tracers

CaptainGelo
06-02-2006, 02:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Genie-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

All the old timers know that the Lagg3 has a very old damage model that is almost impervious to Machine guns fire, its been tested many times before. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

now if you are an old timer, you have probably noticed that BF109 is in this game from day one also, so what is your point? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

109 have been fixed/changed many times along the way http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Genie-
06-02-2006, 02:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oleg86:

109 have been fixed/changed many times along the way http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ha.. thank God we have so caring and German plane loving developers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DuxCorvan
06-02-2006, 03:23 AM
I don't doubt the LaGG in that track pwned that 109 with just ONE bullet. What I want to know is if that happens EVERY time, and to know so, it has to be done MANY times.

And then try to do it the same with other guns, at the same distance over the same 109. MANY times. So we can discern if it is:

- A problem with gun power.
- A problem with 109's DM.
- A mere chance.

That's the way to prove something. If not, it's only something that happened to you in that flight. Curious anecdote.

Genie-
06-02-2006, 04:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
I don't doubt the LaGG in that track pwned that 109 with just ONE bullet. What I want to know is if that happens EVERY time, and to know so, it has to be done MANY times. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yesterday I was doing some testing.. and manage to shot down 4 B-17G (not friendly) with (one) UBS from LaGG.
Of course I have a track.

Now.. I really think that this is a bit too much. Even for UBS.

ElAurens
06-02-2006, 05:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Genie-:
ha.. thank God we have so caring and German plane loving developers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obviously we do. Otherwise we would not have a Bf 109 that is so incredibly overmodeled in low speed maneuvering, and it's ability to decelerate like a land vehicle. Drop the flaps and ride the slats, eh boys? So much so that a certain "JG" once tried to recruit me by offering to let me in on the ways to exploit the 109's "flight model" if you can call it that.

But we are digressing from the poster's intent here.

Dux has the solution, the same target hit, repeated many times to establish a proper database.

Hurri-Khan
06-02-2006, 06:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
AFAIK the finns replaced the 20mm Hispanos in their MS406 with soviet UBS guns.... and were very satisfied with that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

UBS didn't work well in any finnish installation i.e Morane and Curtiss Hawk. Can't remember exactly what problem was but there were feed, icing, and firing mechanism problems. UBS was a good gun but it refused to be mated with western technology http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The only gun that worked well on morane was 20mm mauser in m¶rk¶.

What comes to hispano ammo in morane, they tended to explode in surface of target without any penetration. So some FAF pilots (I recall atleast Antti Tani i.e PE-2 expert with morane) removed detonator from every third round to gain some AP-effect http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Colt and it's finnish copy 12,70 LKk 42 were effective (didn't work well with morane though), so was 13mm MG131 in G-6. Breda-Safat in G.50 seems to have been quite ok too, with only few problems.

But of course game doesn't model reliability or ammo issues so they are all good http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

BaronUnderpants
06-02-2006, 01:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Guys one thing is obvious, nobody of you actually watched the track did you? Ofcourse not, if you actually did you wouldn't talk like that. Vrabac is not kidding, one shot, read it again ONE SHOT as in ONE BULLET took out entire tail section of the Me109 and set it on fire!!! I rarely get such results with a Tempest, yes with 4x20mm Hispano equipped monster. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

But hey, he was way out of line if he expected any other kind of reaction. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I for one didnt even think it was possible to shoot something down with just 1 mg ( other than baloons ). Granted its a big differance between singel player and online and i dont think downing a ac in multiplayer with 1 mg is possible, ( not as in cutting a Bf 109 in half anyways )

carguy_
06-02-2006, 01:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens: Drop the flaps and ride the slats, eh boys? So much so that a certain "JG" once tried to recruit me by offering to let me in on the ways to exploit the 109's "flight model" if you can call it that.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Bear in mind that everytime you ride a T&B plane you exploit the absence of pilot fatigue. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sleepzzz.gif

Irish_Rogues
06-02-2006, 03:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Bear in mind that everytime you ride a T&B plane you exploit the absence of pilot fatigue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've seen this a quite a few times and if it's the same for all pilots then I don't see why that even matters. But, that is getting way off topic.

My $.02 (and it's not even worth that in cash):

Neither the FM or DM in the game is perfect, never could be because it's a sim. We all know it, I'm sure 1c knows it, and with SOW due out soon we also know it's not getting changed even with iron clad proof. So in the end it's a cool discussion, neat clips, just chalk it up to the legend that is IL-2.

jimDG
06-02-2006, 05:18 PM
ok, the Bf109 has big huge fuel tank behind the pilot, and 15mm armor on it.
Maybe the UBS can penetrate this (and blow the tank up, along with the tail) and the .50cal cant?

A true test for the relative strengths would be to shoot both at a hangar, until it switches to being "just walls".

I_KG100_Prien
06-02-2006, 06:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Guys one thing is obvious, nobody of you actually watched the track did you? Ofcourse not, if you actually did you wouldn't talk like that. Vrabac is not kidding, one shot, read it again ONE SHOT as in ONE BULLET took out entire tail section of the Me109 and set it on fire!!! I rarely get such results with a Tempest, yes with 4x20mm Hispano equipped monster. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then its just a one time freak occurance then Brain, dont you think?

How often have you shot away a tail section on a Me109 with one MG hit? I have never.

Maybe flak hit it at exactly the same time or something equally fraky happened? Who is to say?

Odd things happen in this game, odd things happen in real life.

I was coming up behind a ju88 the other day in a Spitfire and was 1000m away, too far to shoot, or so I thought. Next second, black screen. He had shot me in the forhead with one bullet from 1000m from his rear gun. Not the AI either, this was on WarCouds. I didnt even see him shoot, no tracer, nothing, just black screen.

If that was the AI I would have cried foul, but it was just a feaky occurance and a lucky shot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This very post made me decide to do something I really don't do a whole lot of.. Mindless lab tests of a sim that we all know has several "Questionable" things within it's 1's and 0's..

Keep in mind that I'm not complete with my testing and no I'm not wasting my time recording and editing tracks for some of the Jackaninnies here that would say the daytime sky is hot pink with purple polkadots, despite there being plenty of evidence to say it's not.. (Point, pictures can be worth 1000 words except to those who lack the ability to read/listen)

At this point I'm at 8 runs with the following set up

Mig3Ud with 1 12.7mm vs. BF109G-6

I've been firing THREE 2 second bursts from ~100m.

Managed to get the tail blown off with fireball of doom twice. Just plain shot off the rudder/elevator once. Every other pass has resulted in plenty of structural damage and/or engine smoking.

Will continue running this test up to 20 runs, then switch to a 109 vs 109 to keep the target drone the same..

Results should be posted in a bit.

I_KG100_Prien
06-02-2006, 06:52 PM
Ok...

So's I porked around with this silly little expiriment.

1x12.7mm Soviet
2x13.1mm German
4x.50cal USofA

In the case of the Ma Deuces I used the P-38 to keep with the suggestion someone posted of having all aircraft firing nose mounted machineguns. However, the problem of convergance in wing-mounted guns I don't really think is too realavent in so much as you fire at convergance to maximize the volume of fire..

Annnnyyywayyy..

The 13.1mm does appear to be a "weaker" weapon. The only time I was able to cause any kind of major structural damage with a short burst was when I came within 20m of the Target Aircraft.

Not once did I manage to shoot off the tail and ignite the gas tank. However, I managed to end up doing it 3 times with the single 12.7mm.

As for the 50's.. Well, no shooting off of tails with flaming tanks either. However, at the range I was shooting at (100m) they fared better than the 13.1mm.. However, with twice the guns I'd hope I'd get better results.

All and all I think I'll jump on the bandwagon to support that the 12.7MM UBS is a little bit over done. No reason why a SINGLE gun should be able to out perform, in one case FOUR of similar calibre.

But, I've probably wasted my time. I guess I should be greatful that I at least had a good time putting down the Rose Colored Glasses and decided to "see for myself"

Vrabac
06-02-2006, 07:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by I_KG100_Prien:
All and all I think I'll jump on the bandwagon to support that the 12.7MM UBS is a little bit over done. No reason why a SINGLE gun should be able to out perform, in one case FOUR of similar calibre. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If a single gun of one calibre outperforms four guns of identical calibre, than it's more than a little bit overdone. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But as you said, you wasted your time and I wasted mine. But the defenders of the Truth got a chance to do their thing again. Yes, it's all a mass hallucination.

Btw I managed to shoot down planes using just one Russian 12.7mm online several times. Last time today. A squaddie comes on my Pe-3 bis' six with 109Z. Two bullets later his 109Z is missing a wing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm sure it was one of those things that happen once in a million with the exception they happen all the time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

mandrill7
06-02-2006, 09:06 PM
There was a link to a set of VVS Yak pilot memoires a few months ago which I checked out. That guy sure LOVED his UBS. He told the interviewer it was massively better than the German equivalents in penetration and damage power.

And the guy was objective enough to say that the ShVAK and the German 20mm were about equally effective.

Maybe there's something behind the legend of UBS.

FritzGryphon
06-02-2006, 09:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If a single gun of one calibre outperforms four guns of identical calibre </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps you should do a test to prove this.

Number of guns is irrelevant, especially when you compare centterline mounted weapon versus wing guns. What matters is the relative number of hits.

You can test this simply under controlled conditions, firing individual rounds at a specific part of AI plane in FMB, for example fuselage. With enough trials you can get an average number or hits required for each weapon.

It is better than blanket assumptions made from online games.

I'd do it myself, but don't have PF now.

WarWolfe_1
06-02-2006, 10:15 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

they are all over/under modeled depeneding on what you like to fly.

Kocur_
06-03-2006, 03:15 AM
13,2mm MG131 SHOULD be worse than both 12,7mms, as chances of its projectiles to penetrate armour were by far worse than US and Soviet ones as its projectiles were both lighter and slower.
.50 M2 and UB should be roughly equal, as such are parameters (weight and muzzle veliocities) of their projectiles.

Xiolablu3
06-03-2006, 03:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vrabac:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by I_KG100_Prien:
All and all I think I'll jump on the bandwagon to support that the 12.7MM UBS is a little bit over done. No reason why a SINGLE gun should be able to out perform, in one case FOUR of similar calibre. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If a single gun of one calibre outperforms four guns of identical calibre, than it's more than a little bit overdone. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But as you said, you wasted your time and I wasted mine. But the defenders of the Truth got a chance to do their thing again. Yes, it's all a mass hallucination.

Btw I managed to shoot down planes using just one Russian 12.7mm online several times. Last time today. A squaddie comes on my Pe-3 bis' six with 109Z. Two bullets later his 109Z is missing a wing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm sure it was one of those things that happen once in a million with the exception they happen all the time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are TOTALLY missing the point.

People arent saying that there is definitely no problem with the guns, just that your test was totally flawed. With your test alone it proves nothing, it could have been the tail section of the 109 whiich was flawed, not the gun, if we took your test as gospel.

Have you actually read the replies yet or are you just seeing what you want to see?


There are many many bugs in this sim, its very easy to find them, but a lot more work to determine the exact probelm and evenmore to actually fix them.

Genie-
06-03-2006, 04:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by I_KG100_Prien:
Ok...

So's I porked around with this silly little expiriment.

1x12.7mm Soviet
2x13.1mm German
4x.50cal USofA

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

take P39 with only two browning in the nose... and then try testing... it will be even more funnier

carguy_
06-03-2006, 05:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
13,2mm MG131 SHOULD be worse than both 12,7mms, as chances of its projectiles to penetrate armour were by far worse than US and Soviet ones as its projectiles were both lighter and slower.
.50 M2 and UB should be roughly equal, as such are parameters (weight and muzzle veliocities) of their projectiles. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


ACK!Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

So we have two options
1.Make a 50cal projectile effectiveness roughly equal to a single UB projectile(depending on shell kind).
2.Make a single UB projectile efefctiveness roughly equal to a single 50cal projectile.


Try to imagine what would SIX of converged 50cals cause when taken option #1 into life.Cutting bombers in half would be no problem although that`s hardly realistic for gun effectiveness of this calibre.

horseback
06-03-2006, 10:06 AM
Weight of fire seems to favor the UBS, gun to gun over the M2 .50. I'd find a damage ratio of 1.5 to 1 acceptable. The German 13mm guns were called 'doorknockers' for good reason. They did little damage, and mainly served to announce your presence.

About Soviet 12.7mm guns, I can offer a little anecdote: during the Vietnam conflict, the lighter Soviet 12.7mm guns were able to be carried into combat by the NVA, and were very unpopular with US ground forces and helicopter crews. A couple of my older cousins served with Special Warfare outfits in Vietnam and mentioned (after being loosened up with several beers) that it was better than the American .50 in a number of ways; lighter, easier to maintain, AND it threw out lots of more powerful rounds in less time.

They both hated the damned things in exactly the same way their Dads hated kamikazes...

cheers

horseback

JG53Frankyboy
06-03-2006, 10:12 AM
AFAIK the soviets used HE ammo in thier UB guns.
the US didnt used such kind of ammo in their Brownings - even in game the Browning is loaded with some HE rounds.

if this datas are still in use, there is a huge difference between the power of an UB HE shell and the Browning/MG131 ones !

Browning .50
// APIT - AP - HE - AP

APIT
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.002

AP
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0

HE
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.00148

MG 131
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.035
speed = 710.0
power = 0.00148

AP
mass = 0.034
speed = 750.0
power = 0


UBS / UBT
// APIT - AP - HEI

APIT
mass = 0.0448
speed = 850.0
power = 0.001

AP
mass = 0.051
speed = 850.0
power = 0

HEI
mass = 0.0428
speed = 850.0
power = (0.00114+0.00128)

Vrabac
06-03-2006, 10:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
You are TOTALLY missing the point.

People arent saying that there is definitely no problem with the guns, just that your test was totally flawed. With your test alone it proves nothing, it could have been the tail section of the 109 whiich was flawed, not the gun, if we took your test as gospel.

Have you actually read the replies yet or are you just seeing what you want to see?


There are many many bugs in this sim, its very easy to find them, but a lot more work to determine the exact probelm and evenmore to actually fix them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad I'm totally missing the point. But maybe you don't know that this game doesn't simlate production errors on planes, so tail section can't be the problem. Also, wings seem to come off as well, maybe 109's wings are flawed as well. So 109 has flawed wings and flawed tail, what's not flawed on a 109?

My test isn't scientific and I already said it and I don't have time nor will to make 100 tracks as some of you humorously suggested, what I did was point out toward a possible problem and presented some sort of back up, so someone who does these things FOR LIVING, meaning proffesionals, can take a look. It's not my job to do tests for 1C, I would just like it to be better so I did what was in my power, with time I have, to make someone aware of this. It's these people's job to make games so I'd say they are the ones who have access to the game's entrails and don't need to make 100 tracks so they can take a bloody look, and I am NOT going to do their job for them. Of course, maybe I'm wrong, but I'd like someone in charge to tell it to me, and not some self proclaimed authorities telling me to do other people's job.

Vrabac
06-03-2006, 10:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
AFAIK the soviets used HE ammo in thier UB guns. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you, this is first bit of useful info anyone posted here to counter me. Did MG131 have HE rounds too? I think I read somewhere it did.

What I noticed later in testing (I wasn't making tracks) is that UBS can sometimes act like a bit stronger .50, or at least like .50 when it's near it's upper amplitude of effect, but sometimes breaks the plane into pieces from only few hits. So I think it has some sort of cannon damage model, but wit different graphical effect on hit. Which might have something to do with HE rounds you mentioned.

Kocur_
06-03-2006, 02:28 PM
Those in-game beltings (if are still used) have NOTHING to do with reality in case of .50! I posted a while ago real .50's projectiles data 'translated' to Il2ish - it would be:

AP M2

mass = 0.046
speed = 860,0
power = 0

I M1
mass = 0.041
speed = 900,0
power = 0.002

T M10

mass = 0.041
speed = 870,0
power = 0

API M8

mass = 0.042
speed = 890,0
power = 0.001

APIT M20

mass = 0.042
speed = 890,0
power = 0.002 (0,0017 rounded up)

As for Soviet ammo, well check yourself:
http://www.geocities.com/russianammo/145mm.html

Apart from Soviet UB, also Italian 12,7mm and German 13,2mm hmg used explosive ammo, with similar, i.e. lousy results. Reason is that effectiveness of explosive does not rise linerally with increace of its quantity. In case of small explosions increase of overpressure rises proportionally to explosive weight squared, thus to double range of explosion effectiveness you need to 2^2 = 4 i.e. quadruple explosive quantity. So it doesnt take much of math to discover why small projectiles are, well just too small to make effective HE projectiles.
Nb. said coefficinet rises with increace of power of explosion: for nuclear explosions power exponent is 2,8 to 3.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Weight of fire seems to favor the UBS, gun to gun over the M2 .50. I'd find a damage ratio of 1.5 to 1 acceptable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Considering that ammo data is roughly similar for both guns, I would lower UB advatage to 1050/800 = 1,3. Also lets remember that apart from MIG-3 gunpods, in ALL single engine fighter aplications UB fire through prop and as we can read here (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/%7Epettypi/elevon/gustin_military/fgun.html) synchronisaton lowered UB's ROF to 800rpm.

Tusseladden
06-03-2006, 03:09 PM
I know this is a little off topic, but I have an opinion on the .50 cal.

The .50 is extremely effective against japanese planes due to their non-self-sealing fuel tanks and the weak structure.

Against anything else.... it's powerful to vital components, but not to other stuff. A very small number of hits to the engine will take it out relatively fast.... a 4 second burst with constant hits to a 190 or 109 will surely clip something off or light it on fire.

On the other hand, I think the .50 is modelled pretty unrealistic in this game. The hit effects are nothing compared to what you'll find in real life guncam clips. In real life you'll see huge flashes from the impacts with obvious results like fuel tanks exploding, engines catching fire and pilots being pounded to grinded schnitzels.

By the way the .50 cal sound seems off aswell don't you think? It should sound more like the Go229's 30mms sound.

Xiolablu3
06-03-2006, 03:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vrabac:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
You are TOTALLY missing the point.

People arent saying that there is definitely no problem with the guns, just that your test was totally flawed. With your test alone it proves nothing, it could have been the tail section of the 109 whiich was flawed, not the gun, if we took your test as gospel.

Have you actually read the replies yet or are you just seeing what you want to see?


There are many many bugs in this sim, its very easy to find them, but a lot more work to determine the exact probelm and evenmore to actually fix them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad I'm totally missing the point. But maybe you don't know that this game doesn't simlate production errors on planes, so tail section can't be the problem. Also, wings seem to come off as well, maybe 109's wings are flawed as well. So 109 has flawed wings and flawed tail, what's not flawed on a 109?

My test isn't scientific and I already said it and I don't have time nor will to make 100 tracks as some of you humorously suggested, what I did was point out toward a possible problem and presented some sort of back up, so someone who does these things FOR LIVING, meaning proffesionals, can take a look. It's not my job to do tests for 1C, I would just like it to be better so I did what was in my power, with time I have, to make someone aware of this. It's these people's job to make games so I'd say they are the ones who have access to the game's entrails and don't need to make 100 tracks so they can take a bloody look, and I am NOT going to do their job for them. Of course, maybe I'm wrong, but I'd like someone in charge to tell it to me, and not some self proclaimed authorities telling me to do other people's job. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Almost all game developers job is done when the game is released, you may get a few patches fixing bits and bobs, but unless you pay a monthly fee, you arent going to get much.

Luckily Oleg and 1c have continued to support this game throughout its life. That life is coming to a close now as we have the new game on the horizon, Olegs probably isnt even working on the game any more and its not really his 'job' to continue fixing a 4 year old game. (unless you are offering him money to fix this? Didnt think so)

If you can do the testing and prove by how much the gun is overmodelled, then present the data to 1c so that they can implement it, you may have a very small chance of getting it corrected.

Otherwise I wouldnt bother posting this in Olegs Ready Room as its not really 'ready' is it?, its not even half done. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WWMaxGunz
06-03-2006, 06:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimDG:
ok, the Bf109 has big huge fuel tank behind the pilot, and 15mm armor on it.
Maybe the UBS can penetrate this (and blow the tank up, along with the tail) and the .50cal cant?

A true test for the relative strengths would be to shoot both at a hangar, until it switches to being "just walls". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was that how many mm in tilted and seperated sheets of aluminum, probably the hardened kind (T6)
but definitely not armor steel nor more than 1/3 the weight or the steel. How many heavy MG
bullets would it take to totally wipe those away?

I have seen it questioned and posted that 50 cal ammo has no API.
By Oleg's Ammo Table from way back now, there is one Browning .50 with ammo APIT-AP-HE-AP
They are all mass .0485, all speed 870 and power APIT 0.002, AP 0, HE 0.00148

UBS/UBT ammo APIT - AP - HEI
APIT mass 0.0448, speed 850, power 0.001
AP - mass 0.051,- speed 850, power 0
HEI- mass 0.0428, speed 850, power (0.00114+0.00128)

UBS is better at ROF, appx 1.5X and has 2 of 3 shots with incendiary as opposed to 1 in 4 of
the Browning. If you hit through the gas tank then you have 1/4 chance that hit will be a
firestarter with the .50 while the UBS has a 66% chance of the same *and* fires more shots.

How about dismantling bomber engine pods? How much to knock the front off on average?
Don't use Tu bomber or any like it, the landing gear are blocking the engines from behind.

If you want to check scatter, shoot concrete paveway as Tiger Talon did. You will also see
which bullets are explosive... but incendiary?

MucusG
06-03-2006, 07:14 PM
I think we have found a new Tiger tank killer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

The UBS must pwn tigers if its stgronger that a 50 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif