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XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 06:14 AM
So, how would you face I16 if you couldn't just B&Z them?
If I16 pilots' are good they always turn in the last minute and you can't follow them in that turn, or can you?

Any tips will be appreciated.

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 06:14 AM
So, how would you face I16 if you couldn't just B&Z them?
If I16 pilots' are good they always turn in the last minute and you can't follow them in that turn, or can you?

Any tips will be appreciated.

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 06:19 AM
Attack in numbers. A good I-16 pilot will be able to avoid a single attacker but will soon run out of ideas when 2 or more Bf109s start B&Z on him.

The thing is that you've nailed a big negative of B&Z, that it requires gunnery skills of a higher order than that of a "dogfighter". On the upside, at the same time you're a whole lot harder to hit as well.

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XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 06:48 AM
You can't always get him with B&Z, but you can always survive to try again later /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

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XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 07:10 AM
It's pretty easy actually. When you dive down for the BnZ wait till the last minute to open fire. Be sure to dive to where they will be. That way even if they break into a hard turn they simply fly right through you sights.

I've downed several I-16's that way when they flew through my guns. If they go the other way simply zoom back up without firing at them, and setup for another run.
That'll keep them turning and as their energy bleeds off at some point they will either be forced to present themselves as a target in order to regain their energy, or they will try to manuever and wind up spinning. Which is lethal at low altitude in an I-16.

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

Zayets
10-10-2003, 08:03 AM
AI planes seems to run out of ideas when more than one plane is hunting them. seriously! Because dynamic campaign played so bad for me I ws doing only QMB. And was difficult because as you know AI is cheating. But everything changed in the DC now that i put some more ram in and a new CPU , I was stunned that the first mission I flew , downed 3 I-16! all of them with the cannon E-4 , coz those submachineguns are useless , I think they can't even down a mosquito.

Zayets out

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XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 08:08 AM
A lot of times I will give a little squirt on one side of them to let them know I'm there, then quick rudder over to the other so that when they break they will break right into my sight. Good for hitting the engine and cockpit,


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XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 08:52 AM
So, nothing more than Boom and Zoom!
I was just trying to find a way to win them when in low altitude in emergency cases but it seems that only B&Z works...

Thanks /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 09:10 AM
Hi Zayets,

It's actually possible to down around 11+ I16s using only machineguns, via explosion kills rather than pilot kills.

A track of this was posted not long ago to ORR.


edit: the specifics-

originally posted by plumps:
- @ German MGs in early BF-109 types
-
- I did some more testing.
-
- My personal record for shooting down I-16s (rookie
- AI) only with the machine guns of one BF-109 F-2 is
- currently 12 (twelve). Yes, you can kill twelve I-16
- without using the cannons, but with limited MG ammo.
- <a
- href="http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/MG_on
- ly-BF109F2-I16-12_kills.zip">Here's the track
- (rather boring).</a>
-
- It's probably due to the stupid AI that so many
- planes go down after so little damage; this wouldn't
- be achieved online against human opponents. Any AI
- stupidity can be excluded when you destroy the
- planes immediately: My record for setting fire to
- I-16s without using the cannons is currently 6 (six)
- with the MG ammo of one BF-109 F-2. <a
- href="http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/MG_on
- ly-BF109F2-I16-6_burn.zip">Here's the track.</a>
-
- That may sound a lot, but my records for shooting
- down I-16s with another I-16 type 24, again without
- using cannons, are yet higher: <a
- href="http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/MG_on
- ly-I1624-I16-16_kills.zip">16 kills</a> or <a
- href="http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/MG_on
- ly-I1624-I16-9_burn.zip">9 burning/exploding</a>!
-
-
- Conclusion: German MGs are not inefficient, but
- Russian MGs are better. I-16 is not made of
- concrete. Don't ban my I-16 from your server!
-
-

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Message Edited on 10/10/0308:18AM by clint-ruin

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 09:24 AM
Depends on the settings ofcourse, because on no cockpit games BnZ is easier because you can make otherwise impossible shots and can keep tally no matter what.

But against an I16 player who can keep up SA, there's not much the 109F's can do if they strictly stay on their BnZ routine even if they outnumber the rata 2 or 3 to 1. I've been on the receiving end of several 109's tagteaming, while i was in the rata. Mostly they were out of reach from my guns but the way they flew their BnZ i could hold my own fairly easily while stretching their patience.

I found that if the 109 pilots really wanna make the I16 pilot sweat, they need to keep the pressure on at all times and not give the rata pilot any time to recover or keep up SA. Which can mean the 109's will to put themselves in danger of being shot down as well. Strict BnZ is not good to keep the pressure on, unless you can coordinate multiple attacks from several directions consecutively.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 10:09 AM
Shoot if done right a 109 can keep the BnZ going fluid and with practice and the cockpit on you can makes the same shots as with it off.
I fly VEF which is full real, and I have no problems against I-16's.

When low and out of speed though you have only one sane choice against an I-16. RUN! 90% throttle, radiator closed. Use only non-energy bleeding evasive manuevers, and te I-16 has no hope of keeping up with your or catching you. Also the 6 o'clock is the hardest angle to get good hits from especially on the 109 as it is a small target.

With the BnZ I basically fly a vertical figure 8 pattern. I come down, shoot, climb up, around, and down, and shoot. I can keep that up forever at least while I have fuel and ammo. While the I-16 has little time to regain energy from his dodging.

Also my favorite, and IMHO the best BnZ angle is from the side. It leaves them in a seriously bad position. Any hard turns only bring them closer and inline with your guns or slightly further away and inline with you guns.
So they're forced into either giving up altitude, or bleeding speed and climbing which only makes them an easier target.

The only thing I've found hard other than multiple I-16's when alone is when an I-16 pilot fly's nap of the earth. I mean right down there touching his shadow. Which forces me to break off my attacks earlier to avoid smacking the ground.

It's really a patience game though is who try's to play who's game first. I've seen many 109 pilots make one or two attempts at the BnZ before trying to turn fight the I-16's. They're mincemeat against the I-16's in a low and slow turn fight.

However I've seen I-16 pilots who can't take the BnZ harrasment and decide to try to go vertical and get a shot on one as he climbs away. Next thing he knows he's hanging in the air, and another 109 has him dead to rights. Or he simply finds himself out of E diving back for the ground with the 109 coming back down around for him.

The only things I fear in the 109 is bomber gunners, AAA, and Mig-3's in that order. Of course in VEF that's about all there is aside from sturmovik's, and I-16's, I-153's.

Mainly because against the IL2's, I-16's, and I-153's I can always just disengage at will.

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 10:21 AM
Hopperfly22 wrote:
-.. and with practice and the cockpit on you can
- makes the same shots as with it off.

LOL /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

except that with it off you can make the sure deflection shots that would have been impossible with the cockpit on.

The time the BnZ-er zooms up is when the I16 can recover (speed alt). Besides, evasive maneuvers in the I16 don't have to bleed energy. You don't always have to turn hard to evade.
Where the 109 pilot can engage or disengage at will, the I16 player with SA can evade at will. That's the balance.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 11:13 AM
Online I dont even bother to use MGs on a B&Z-pass, because on human opponents your MGs dont do even a scratch. And easier to hit when you fire with cannon only anyway.. Personally I am impressed with the guy shooting 6 I-16 rookies to flames .. I can post you a track shooting 1000 rounds of MG17, and not only couple of scratch in the AI i-16.. is there really a difference on AI level Damage models, I wonder.. Though I would think it would be better to test MG-effectivity to HUman opponents.. AI is just so stupid and tend to crash with even slightest damage.

I fly VEF also, and sometimes I can blow I-16 with only one pass with MG151/15 in my F-2.. then again sometimes they need my whole arsenal to bring down one of these beasts.. if possible try to aim for wings, since it looks like there is somekind of weak point causing an explosion.. ofcourse this is very rare, because human I-16 can hear bouncing 109s and avoid the fire easily.. And if it is a summer map, best way to survive with I-16 is simply go over a forest.. personally I have great difficulties spotting an I-16 flying below me, if there is a forest.. i-16 completely blends into background.. Fortunalety winter is much easier, and now we have Winter on VEF /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Like someone said, Attacking I-16 in numbers is the best way.. unfortunalety mostly you are mostly outnumbered to I-16 in VEF, what makes B&Z very hard.. you can make a successfull pass, but immidiately other I-16 is on to you, and can easily shoot a good burst.. and 1 sec burst with I-16 is enough to bring 109 down.. flying in squad makes flying for LW much easier indeed.

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