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View Full Version : Detailed Aramusha Rework Idea



Vendelkin
03-02-2019, 08:26 AM
Inspired by LeWeaboo's rework ideas on competitive for honor reddit, but mostly very different. (his struck me as very op in many many ways)

Also please note Aramusha is an assassin heavy hybrid not a vanguard heavy like some people assume. this is easily seen from the for honor website, his speed, and his original description. I present my raw statements before opinions so people can formulate their own (opinions). I will present my reasoning at the end.

1: Rushing wind/RW alternate should start 100ms sooner during a forward dodge and Rushing wind and alternates (the side variants) should become 100ms faster and undodgeables. (yes a 200ms total speed buff to the RW)

2: reduce blade blockade recovery to 100ms (down from 400ms). Thus it would retain the 100ms startup, 400ms duration and 100ms recover for 600ms of gb vulnerability.

3: enable twin viper(the side unblockable from blade blockade) to soft feint into dodges. (enabling followup to back dodgers and rollers via a rushing wind undodgeable)

4: enable a small no dmg 10 or less stam bash on dodge attack that maybe (debatable) guarantees a light 5 damage (just to keep mild pressure) but acts as an interrupter and combo starter. Could be called Taiko Rhythm to connect to Musashi's inspiration from taiko drummers in his NiTen IchiRyu fighting style. Dodging the bash would guarantee nothing unless the opponent followed into a dodge attack because Ara flows into his combo making it a fair opener similar to gladiator's in nature.

5: and finally nerfs, slightly reduce a few of his heavy damages to compensate. HSB down to 37 (from 40) HSC down to 30 (from 33) HSC+(finisher) to 40 (down from 45) Rushing Wind Alternate (Forward dodge Side guard heavies that would now be undodgeable) down to 23 (from 25) to compensate for them having the undodgeable property.

Random info (did you know Ara's GB has less followup attack time than most? makes sense for his kit but still weird)

REASONING
#1 This would allow a hard feint to actually effectively enable use of rushing winds top Hyper Armor, and additionally would give us the ability to catch back dodgers with this tricky feint. Hyper armor would start 100 MS earlier via quicker movement into it from dodge, and total animation speed would be 700ms top 800ms for sides (the alternates) (instead of 900ms,1000ms the old version with dmg 25 of both options) this also works in tandem with change #3

#2 I mean I could live without it, but it would just make it slightly less awful. I feel like when I whiff a BB right now I'm a turtle hiding in my shell who comes out with a dumb look on his face thinking "durrrr no one hit me uhhh what do I do now?" it would just make it more inline with other full blocks utility wise and would still be very punishble by guardbreak via a feint from the opponent. It would prevent some hard feint basic attacks tho which is the goal I had in mind. Honestly this ones up for debate tho.

#3 Twin viper is a useless unblockable from BB that is parry bait and easy to dodge. Allowing it to soft feint into dodge enable four options from it with my propositions. First dodge forward into top heavy for HA to weak trade (25 dmg) Second dodge forward into side heavy to catch dodgers but maybe get hit by a parry attempt, Third Side dodge into light bash to enable combo followup and mild stamina damage from proposition 4. Fourth option let it fly see if the unblockable connects.

#4 This bash would have some use as a mild opener, guaranteeing maybe minimal damage, but still opening an opponent to the rest of his kit effectively and safely bypassing combo starters. It would have wonderful interaction with any full blocks doing nothing punishing but disabling their punishes for a moment

#5 His dmg may be a bit over-tuned, especially for it's speed, but he is an assassin. With all these new buffs he absolutely needs some nerfs to dmg, especially his heavy side openers that deal 40 and his heavy side finish that dealt 45.

Thank you for your time!

MrB3NX
03-02-2019, 09:53 AM
i don't like your suggestion .

Vendelkin
03-02-2019, 10:28 AM
i don't like your suggestion .
Alright thanks for responding @_@. Any paricular points youd change? Or that you worry would enable too much? Or specific numbered points you dislike and why? Etc?

Star.Princess
03-02-2019, 01:41 PM
Nah, that will be very bad rework I think, he would still have a lot of non-working things like 400ms feints or some BB counter-attacks. I think his BB would be still useless. Vs normal opponents he would just feint Rushing wind into GB, it is very weak opener, damage to low to efficient 50/50, especially against counter-attackers and turtles like Conq, If bash would slow or weak then people will just dodge it or punish you harder than you can give. I think he need BB counter-attacks changes, he need all combo rework, more unblockables, maybe more 400ms tri-directional lights, more health pool.

Vendelkin
03-02-2019, 07:36 PM
Nah, that will be very bad rework I think, he would still have a lot of non-working things like 400ms feints or some BB counter-attacks. I think his BB would be still useless. Vs normal opponents he would just feint Rushing wind into GB, it is very weak opener, damage to low to efficient 50/50, especially against counter-attackers and turtles like Conq, If bash would slow or weak then people will just dodge it or punish you harder than you can give. I think he need BB counter-attacks changes, he need all combo rework, more unblockables, maybe more 400ms tri-directional lights, more health pool.

I mean would could make the deadly feints faster but thatd seem like overkill. The goal was to not change a ton but solve his back dodger proplems + a new opener. If you dont think this rework would fix that then your response makes sense.

I still get BB off occasionally in ranked duels by feint baiting into it tbh. (But that is high risk amd a parry is safer) im open to the idea of making it stronger not just less dangerous to use, but i dont want him to just get buffed out the wazoo cause I and many others already can perform pretty good with him.

The bash could guarantee an opener light i discussed i guess hut i worry that would give to much. The bash should come out very quick tho so baiting it only works for people that have a dodge attack of their own otherwise baiting it would do no good. Also i would love to see his 400ms light game come back but i know why they did what they did.

Ive seen some discussion of removing the top side top side restriction for tempest. That combined with 400ms lights would be potent but i worry too potent given infinite. Itd be extremely abusable on lonsole mid tier and i dont want to break him for kid tier.

Currently chasing only works with rushing wind, but my goal would be to access rushing wind more fluidly, quickly, and safely while giving it additional options (side variant now undodgeable and faster) we could givr the top unblockable as well i suppose but again i worry were giving him too much.

Vendelkin
03-02-2019, 07:40 PM
Also im interested in what kinda dodge attack people would give him. His identity bio says hes extremely good at dodges. That doesnt manifest currently in his kit. 8f jot a bash what would you like to see on his dodge attack?

MrB3NX
03-03-2019, 04:12 AM
Alright thanks for responding @_@. Any paricular points youd change? Or that you worry would enable too much? Or specific numbered points you dislike and why? Etc?

99% of players hate bashes

and you have that Ubisoft mindset that making every hero bashy would solve the problems while it's the opposite

besides that he does not need a nerf on heavy .

Vendelkin
03-03-2019, 04:31 AM
99% of players hate bashes

and you have that Ubisoft mindset that making every hero bashy would solve the problems while it's the opposite

besides that he does not need a nerf on heavy .

Thats exactly why i dont want the bash to guarantee damage but rather be a functional tool to open people up amd get the ball rolling. If an aramusha spammed it based on what i outlined above he would be the one being punished. This isnt an ubisoft mindset if not a bash the only available opener would be an unblockable and i just dont see how an unblockable would fit into his kit from neutral.

So if not a bash for viable opener what opener would you want him to have? (Honestly interested in other ideas for an opener or dodge attack)

Vendelkin
03-03-2019, 08:25 PM
Moving it up cause of the forum spam which was really bad last night apparently. And because id still like to hear more input.

Klingentaenz3r
03-06-2019, 02:39 PM
I agree with you Vendelkin that LeWeaboo's rework ideas seemed to be a bit OP and not really targeting the right spots. But it also gave me the incentive to write up some suggestions on my own last week. I see though that you have beaten me to the punch by releasing before the weekend :D. (For reference, if sb likes to check: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/axnrmj/ideas_on_how_to_improve_aramusha/ )

Note though, officially Aramusha was introduced as a Hybrid of Heavy/Vanguard.
It is a bit difficult to make out the Vanguard but if there any signs I would say you notice it upon the following: He has Vanguard Damage values (40 dmg, former 42 on light parry punish, wallsplat or landed side-heavy) and excels at clearing minions. Additionally some of his feats are traditional Vanguard feats.
But honestly I think overall he is should have been introduced as an Hybrid of a Heavy, Vanguard & an Assassin. You said it yourself in terms of his playstyle and focal points he resembles more an Assassin than a Heavy. His feasts overall show overlaps between all three classes however:
Body Count, Second Wind and Stalwart Banner are all Vanguard feats, Sharpened Blade, Fear Itself belong to Assassins, while Rocksteady, Juggernaut (and Iron Lungs?) are typical Heavy feats.


Random info (did you know Ara's GB has less followup attack time than most? makes sense for his kit but still weird)
Yes. Why do you think it is weird? They implemented it so that he couldn't have a 42 dmg guardbreak punish on release since everything up to 800 ms attacks would be guaranted on GB (and he had 700 ms). This is why he had no heavy punish on a GB on release and later on they implemented the 600 ms top heavy so that he could get said heavy punish.

Anyhow,

On 3:
I like the idea you suggest to add a softfeint dodge cancel out of Twin Vipers. This is similar to my idea to have such a softfeint on his Chain Finishers in order to catch roll/dodge attempts or just to mix things up and get the chain rolling. I would still buff the damage of Twin Vipers a bit or increase the area of affect a little bit to be more viable in team fights (this is where it should shine in my opinion but due to the lack of reach and its long windup it is not easy to successfully hit it).

On 2: I am also not sure if this is a necessary change. A little improvement on the recovery - fine. But I think shortening down 400 ms to 100 sounds a bit much an would make it more safe than I think it should be. I am mean even now if I mess it up (or not :rolleyes:) some opponents tend to be very surprised and go for a GB punish, but by that time it is already too late and I can counter GB with ease or even punish with a side heavy to the face. Reducing the recovery by approximately 100 ms (so 300 ms recovery) would alreay do the trick on both sides as well I think. This way you have leeway too actually use it as bait, whilst in your suggestion people will quickly learn that it is not recommendable to guardbreak on reaction after a whiffed BB. Or maybe in the realms of Setmyx and Co your suggestion is perfectly fine, in that case I wouldn't want to stand in the way of progress.

On 4:
An opener is always welcome. However could you elaborate more if you mean it to be a side dodge attack or a forward dodge attack? According to your description it seems to be quite unpunishable. Which in return sounds to me that suddenly you have a new core move that can be spammed over and over again. Glads toe stab at least is quite punishable now but on release it was very very annoying. I have the feeling this could be the same and that would do the game no good. Which is why I suggested on the (side) dodge attack point to use ring the bell (without HA) as a guardbreak move similar to raiders guardbreak from dodge. What this does is that there is still a good chance to prevent it by attacking. You catch the opponent in a moment in which he is vulnerable to guardbreaks which makes it a good solution to tackle the issues of aramusha against bashes. In itself ring the bell's main purpose is to blind the opponent and set up the ground for your attacking barriage (just like from BB). Other ideas for opener were to softfeint from Rushing Wind Alternate into kick (that could be basically your move then at that point although I think animationwise I see a spinning kick being more fluently fitting after reaching back with the swords) OR to put said softfeint after the Chain Finisher Heavy. But I personally prefer a softfeint cancel into dodges on the Chain Finisher Heavies.

---

What I really miss on your suggestion list is something on stamina. Currently he has 120 which is like most of the cast. However he is very stamina intensive and has a high need to mix things up in order to create an opening on the opponent. Berserker, who is in a similar situation, has 140 stamina (cent topples that with 160). What's your stance on that?

MrB3NX
03-06-2019, 05:06 PM
Thats exactly why i dont want the bash to guarantee damage but rather be a functional tool to open people up amd get the ball rolling. If an aramusha spammed it based on what i outlined above he would be the one being punished. This isnt an ubisoft mindset if not a bash the only available opener would be an unblockable and i just dont see how an unblockable would fit into his kit from neutral.

So if not a bash for viable opener what opener would you want him to have? (Honestly interested in other ideas for an opener or dodge attack)

you know you can open a turtle with feints right ?

come on buddy .

Vendelkin
03-06-2019, 07:49 PM
Yes. Why do you think it is weird? They implemented it so that he couldn't have a 42 dmg guardbreak punish on release since everything up to 800 ms attacks would be guaranted on GB (and he had 700 ms). This is why he had no heavy punish on a GB on release and later on they implemented the 600 ms top heavy so that he could get said heavy punish.
Just cause it's not standardized thus in team fights he can't hold someone still on GB as long as others, HOWEVER as you said yeah I completely understand why it's the way it is cause otherwise he'd get too much dmg off a guard break.

Also yeah I was reminded on reddit that he is a vanguard heavy. which just still seems strange to me. I've been thinking ;ately that hybrids really shouldn't need any class role bindings anyways cause class rolls obviously matter less and less (heavies with dodges, vanguards with multi option dodge selects, assassins with hyper armor.) IIRC the only thing class actually sets in stone is renown gain. IE Vanguards get more renown from minion kills, heavies from zone captures and protections, assassins from hero kills. while hybrids maybe have a lesser bonus. Either way he needs a bloody dodge attack. All the vanguards have a unique on side dodge: kensei's superior block side sweep is very strong, raider dodge gb, warden dodge into SB, tiandi spammy dodge.
Aramusha since the standardization of dodge recoveries can't do anything on dodge.



On 3:
I like the idea you suggest to add a softfeint dodge cancel out of Twin Vipers. This is similar to my idea to have such a softfeint on his Chain Finishers in order to catch roll/dodge attempts or just to mix things up and get the chain rolling. I would still buff the damage of Twin Vipers a bit or increase the area of affect a little bit to be more viable in team fights (this is where it should shine in my opinion but due to the lack of reach and its long windup it is not easy to successfully hit it).
Yeah there are a lot of options for how it could be made better And really I'd be fine with almost anything, it just needs to be actually useful, whereas right now performing the move just always gives your opponent the advantage. I'd also considered further soft feints into dodge on his deadly feint enabled finishers, but you already can feint those into his forward dodge so giving him that would just reduce the skill ceiling and stamina cost for the maneuver, which would be fine, but I don't think it's necessary especially if they are sped up so the HA can actually damage trade afterwards and the maneuver is less predictable.



On 2: I am also not sure if this is a necessary change. A little improvement on the recovery - fine. But I think shortening down 400 ms to 100 sounds a bit much an would make it more safe than I think it should be. I am mean even now if I mess it up (or not :rolleyes:) some opponents tend to be very surprised and go for a GB punish, but by that time it is already too late and I can counter GB with ease or even punish with a side heavy to the face. Reducing the recovery by approximately 100 ms (so 300 ms recovery) would alreay do the trick on both sides as well I think. This way you have leeway too actually use it as bait, whilst in your suggestion people will quickly learn that it is not recommendable to guardbreak on reaction after a whiffed BB. Or maybe in the realms of Setmyx and Co your suggestion is perfectly fine, in that case I wouldn't want to stand in the way of progress.
Yeah I'm not sure where this one should be baalanced, my thinking was it's weak against bashes too (unlike bulwark stances or hidden stances with their dodge effect) thus as a quick defense frame it needs something to be performed. currently its worse than sifu's, hidden, or bulwark counter in terms of recovery options but even when successful it still never guarantees more than ring the bell. you could compare it to valk,warlor, conq full blocks but all those can be maintained with options. I say another suggestion to allow it to flow into a dodgeable form of the kick or into twin vipers on whiff so the opponent still has to react, but I'd rather just reduce it's recovery.



On 4:
An opener is always welcome. However could you elaborate more if you mean it to be a side dodge attack or a forward dodge attack? According to your description it seems to be quite unpunishable. Which in return sounds to me that suddenly you have a new core move that can be spammed over and over again. Glads toe stab at least is quite punishable now but on release it was very very annoying. I have the feeling this could be the same and that would do the game no good. Which is why I suggested on the (side) dodge attack point to use ring the bell (without HA) as a guardbreak move similar to raiders guardbreak from dodge. What this does is that there is still a good chance to prevent it by attacking. You catch the opponent in a moment in which he is vulnerable to guardbreaks which makes it a good solution to tackle the issues of aramusha against bashes. In itself ring the bell's main purpose is to blind the opponent and set up the ground for your attacking barriage (just like from BB). Other ideas for opener were to softfeint from Rushing Wind Alternate into kick (that could be basically your move then at that point although I think animationwise I see a spinning kick being more fluently fitting after reaching back with the swords) OR to put said softfeint after the Chain Finisher Heavy. But I personally prefer a softfeint cancel into dodges on the Chain Finisher Heavies.

That's precisely why I want it to guarantee 0 DMG (the small damage I put it was something i debated fro a long time as a light pressure tool so ts not empty risk in performing it 5 dmg)

The problem with ring the bell is it's a vacuum animation lock so it would be hard to implement right for a side dodge. the bash I would like would be most similar to glads side bash, but with less recovery so it could only be turned around by others with dodge attacks, not by general dodges, thus it's 0 or minimal dmg isn't punishing because of it's inherent weakness. In fact still it would be a very risky move. Sp yes an aramusha could spam it, but at what cost? against any enemy with a dodge attack hed lose out dmg wise very quickly, against enemies without he'd gain nothing beyond starting his combo cause the dmg is 0 or 5 and all followups are just part of his regular chain. My hope was it would hit with light attack stun thus only lightly staggering the enemy but would allow him to flow immediately into his combo attacks, thus a heavy from any direction would be a finisher or a light would be part of his infinite, but all still react-able/parry-able. it would be unique as a bash with no damage but would work well as a new form of low risk opener IMO.



What I really miss on your suggestion list is something on stamina. Currently he has 120 which is like most of the cast. However he is very stamina intensive and has a high need to mix things up in order to create an opening on the opponent. Berserker, who is in a similar situation, has 140 stamina (cent topples that with 160). What's your stance on that?

I considered it, but I already have a decently easy time managing stamina for a few hits and then backing off. Anime expert feints and manuevers even more than I do. I think the key to his stamina management is just never letting combo heavies fly because if they are blocked (which they will be) it hammers your stamina very fast. I would love a buff to his stamina, but personally I don't feel he needs it to be viable even with the changes I suggest. Again tho I'd be completely happy with a stam buff up to 140

*EDIT*: (+response toMrB3NX) I will say tho his dodge attack doesn't need to be a bash. this is just an option. I have thoguht about it a lot and yeah we proabbly dont need another bash spammy opener cause they aren't fun to play against. If this is the case tho he still needs a side dodge attack or something special about his dodges. On release his dodges were unique, and his character bio still tells the player he has excellent dodging despite this being no longer true. Something needs to be done to enhance his side dodges. Before Tiandi release I actually wanted something similar for his side dodges. Now that Tiandis released I really dont want spammable soft feint dodges haha. But he does need something, even if its just a light attack ddge attack.

As far as openers go I think you should read up on the viable opener debate (not saying you haven't). I get we have different opinions, and Im not of the school of thought that thinks everyone NEEDS an unblockable from neutral, but viable openers combined with aramusha's slow walking speed do not fit together. Literally the only option an ara has to close that gap right now is top heavy rushing wind, which everyone knows we will feint it GB.

A terrible Idea but fun in thought is giving him a double dodge since he is from the same school as shinobi (devs dont do this it was just a rando thought because of his bio saying he trained with shinobi's)

Maxime_Qc-
03-07-2019, 07:16 AM
Lolll ...aramusha and all his stupid movesets should be completely remove from the game...

Restart over from the beginning and make the Ronin !!!!

Vendelkin
03-07-2019, 09:08 AM
Lolll ...aramusha and all his stupid movesets should be completely remove from the game...

Restart over from the beginning and make the Ronin !!!!

This is insulting. You really hate him that much huh?

Vendelkin
03-07-2019, 10:26 AM
New did you know.

Aramusha has the slowest in lock walking speed any direction of the entire cast of heroes. Seriously. Slower than shugoki in lock. Slower than a conqueror or black prior in full block stance. What the frack. Thats why we cant engage worth beans.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/ay2j0t/all_character_locked_on_and_unlocked_movement/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Melikethegames
03-07-2019, 09:14 PM
i don't like your suggestion .

me to

Vendelkin
04-28-2019, 09:47 PM
Re-opening my rework idea thread in response to something said on another thread with a few tweaks to my original posts content (to avoid hijacking that other thread)

My reasoning still remains the same throughout for the most part as stated in the initial post

1: Rushing wind/RW alternate should start 100ms sooner during a forward dodge and Rushing wind and alternates (the side variants) should become 100ms faster and undodgeable. (yes a 200ms total speed buff to the RW alternate)

2: Reduce blade blockade recovery to 100ms (down from 400ms). Thus it would retain the 100ms startup, 400ms duration and 100ms recover for 600ms of gb vulnerability. (It's true 300ms buff is large, but i feel thats whats necessary given the current options it has. the alternative to this would be buffing all the resulting follow up actions. Making it safer makes the 15 dmg light or 25 dmg non guaranteeds more acceptable because the move is safer)

3: Enable twin viper(the side unblockable from blade blockade) to soft feint into dodges. (enabling followup to back dodgers and rollers via a rushing wind undodgeable, OR the new point #4)

4: Enable a small dodge attack similar in nature to tiandi's quick dodge lights, but with even less damage (5-8). It acts as an interrupter and combo starter. Could be called Taiko Rhythm to connect to Musashi's inspiration from taiko drummers in his NiTen IchiRyu fighting style. Dodging the aramusha's attack would guarantee nothing (due to it being a combo starter enabling flow into lights or heavies) unless the opponent followed into a dodge attack as well making it a fair opener similar to gladiator's or tiandi's in nature. Im uncertain whether I'd want this to hit sides, or to hit top so as to disable the 400ms light top follow up immediately after (that i would like brought back as i mention in point #7).

5: Normalize his walking speed In Lock so that he can actually GB people that feint and dodge.

6: Nerfs, slightly reduce a few of his heavy damages to compensate. HSB down to 37 (from 40) HSC down to 30 (from 33) HSC+(finisher) to 40 (down from 45) Rushing Wind Alternate (Forward dodge Side guard heavies that would now be undodgeable) down to 23 (from 25) to compensate for them having the undodgeable property and speed buff.

7: Finally after some consideration I think he does need that stamina buff to 140 (up from 120) to accommodate his very feint heavy play-style, additionally bring back his 400ms top light in combo, but just make it even less dmg (5-10, 8 would be where i'd set it making his side base heavy{with my dmg nerf} into top 37+8 = 45).

Eroglas
04-29-2019, 12:40 AM
Aramusha is good as he is. Im wrecking 160 reps players (dominion) if I play like I should...